Author Topic: Clara and Mr. Tiffany by Susan Vreeland May Bookclub Online (Read 89200 times)

pedln · « **Reply #40 on:** May 04, 2011, 11:02:34 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

CLARA and MR. TIFFANY

by Susan Vreeland

"For a century, everyone assumed that the iconic Tiffany lamps were conceived and designed by that American master of stained glass, Louis Comfort Tiffany. Not so! It was a woman!" (Susan Vreeland)

Vreeland captures Gilded Age New York and its atmosphere--robber barons, sweatshops, colorful characters, ateliers from the voluminous letters belonging to the Tiffany glass studio manager, Clara Driscoll, discovered by the author
(Amazon review ).

"My last lampshade was accepted and I am
having it made now. It will be quite expensive,
but I think it will be attractive and that the
general public will admire it. The one before
this was a purple and red scheme with opal
to lighten and soften it. Mr. Tiffany thought
it was very fine and Mr. Mitchell thought it
was the ugliest thing he ever saw."
(Letter from Clara Driscoll)

Discussion Schedule:

May 1-8 ~ Chapters 1-12
May 9-15 ~ Chapters 13-24
May 16-22 ~ Chapters 25-37
May 23-31 ~ Chapters 38-47
and the Afterward

Some Topics for Consideration
May 9 - 15 ~ Chapters 13 - 24

1. Why did Edwin leave Clara? Have you ever known someone who just disappeared like that? Do you think George has been fair to Clara, witholding what he knew of past episodes such as this?

2. What part does the dragonfly play in this story? What about the butterflies?

3. What do you think of Mr. Tiffany’s statements after he heard about Edwin. “You are mine again.” and “He was a fool to let you go.”

4. What about the other men in Clara’s life. Has she let Edwin go? Do you think Mr. Belknap has feelings for Clara also? What about Bernard Booth, does he have eyes for her or is he “just a friend.?”

Related Links:
NPR Interview with Susan Vreeland;
Morse Museum, Winter Park, FL - World's largest collection of Tiffany glass;
Tiffany Girls on Exhibition Video;
Susan Vreeland Website for Clara

Discussion Leaders: Pedln & Annie

JoanP, thanks for the list of Boarding House folk -- I've just added them to my list of Clara characters. George's and Edwin's last name is Waldo. George is an artist, and has a house or cabin of his own, but I gather that it is not close to Irving Place. I can't find where George is living now or why he moved. But he is a very likeable man. And in his own way, he is very fond of Clara, and she of him. And as he's well aware that he can't have her, he wants her to meet (and hopefully like) his brother.

Do you wonder as you read, what is fact and what is fiction here, or as Joan says, where history leaves off. These boarders, were they all real. I would doubt that it is still a rooming house. What say you, JOanR -- Irving Place is not far from the Strand Bookstore, my most favorite bookstore on earth -- well, tied with Seattle's old Elliott Bay Bookstore. (I haven't seen the new one.) It's a short street -- starts at about 14th St and ends at Gramercy Park, around 18th St. Between 3rd and 4th Ave. Not far from Union Square.

Can't you picture the dinner hour there. Everyone coming together at the end of the day, each one sharing the events of his/her day with the others. Can you imagine Clara's shock when at one of those meals she learns that her boss has never had a year when his business was in the black. His father has been supporting the son's Tiffany Glass Works.

Steph · « **Reply #41 on:** May 05, 2011, 06:06:18 AM »

I have been imagining that although Clara is real and possibly some of the people who work with her, the boarding house is not. But since there were letters, maybe some of them are real as well. I dislike letter collections, but maybe I want to read these, although I think later. If i read them now, I might get confused as to real and unreal.

ANNIE · « **Reply #42 on:** May 05, 2011, 12:41:24 PM »

I just spent the most delightful time looking at all the links that were brought here for us to peruse. What a delicious sight to see those windows and mosaics in real life. But, of course, Vreeland couldn't include pictures of all these wonderful pieces of art. Would have made a wonderful coffee table book with the art included, wouldn't it?? Maybe we should think of putting something like that together with the story. I would bet, someone with lots and lots of time on their hands, could do it on a site like Shutterfly. Hmmmmm!

Yes,Pedl'n, we have a complete Chihuly exhibit at our Franklin Park Conservatory donated by a wealthy family. Its so beautiful and they change it every once in awhile, placing different pieces with lighting around in the gardens. Very impressive! I have pictures somewhere on my computer and might try to place one or two here later.

I, too, love the boarding house crew and the life they have together. As to George and Edwin's last name, its somewhere in the book.

When I was growing up, my parents rented rooms to hockey players from Canada who played on the Detroit farm team in Indianapolis, called the Indy Capitols. They treated my brother and I like syblings and were always bringing us things from different cities where they played. They even took us to practice and sped up and down the ice with Joe or I in their arms. When we played hockey on roller skates with a tennis ball, we could sometimes talk(beg) them into joining us. We loved having them around and felt special to know them. We rented the roooms for about 10 years. Even in the summer, when the hockey players were home in Canada, my parents rented rooms to state fair goers plus my dad and brother parked cars for other fair goers in our backyard(they took down the fence that lined the driveway side of the yard.) Remember this was during the depression and WWII years, so anyway one could earn extra (non-taxed money was a plus at our home.

JoanR,
Do you have a picture of your aunt and one of her pictures?? Send them to JoanP!

I did understand the glass making directions and also the difficulty and intense labor that each one took.
I am thinking that the window that I saw in the Morse Museum in 1991? had that folded glass gown in it. Wish I had a picture of that! Did anyone click on the link showing the lamp exhibit) Somewhere in the that there are two mosaics and one of them has the fine vines that I described here. Very hard work!

For those of you who went to NYC last year, I think the boarding house is somewhat close to where our hotel is. A new building, 1927 built. So, I am thinking we could go to Google Earth to see if the boarding house building is still there. One moment, please!

Here's a link to a photo of Tiffany's ceiling in the National Arts Club plus some history about the club.http://www.panoramio.com/photo/984620
I believe its near the boarding house.

ANNIE · « **Reply #43 on:** May 05, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »

Here's a link to 44 Irving Place. Caso Mono has that address now. When you click on this link, then look up at the top, you have to put in 44 Irving Place and click on "search". Map but no actual picture of the building that is there now. Sorry about that! I will try to walk by the restaurant in Google.
http://maps.google.com/

JoanP · « **Reply #44 on:** May 05, 2011, 04:52:18 PM »

Annie, I Google Earthed 44 Irving Place and this building kept coming up. I thought it looked more like a school than a Victorian rooming house - and it was!

It's Washington Irving High School - built in 1913. The article mentions that several buildings were taken down to put up the high school. Its
official address is 20 irving Place -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving_High_School_(New_York_City)

Pedln, thanks for George and Edwin's last name...Waldo. I'll put that in the chart. Yes, I'd have loved the dinner hour in the rooming house. What would you announce as your special talent if asked by Merry Owens? Clara thought fast - she could recite poetry. I think we're going to see not only references to art in this book, but the boarders also seem to be quite a literary group, don't they?

Steph, you're probably right - it's better to accept this as Vreeland's fiction - and then find out later which were the real people on which she based the story. As I remember, that was the case with her "Luncheon of the Boating Party" too...

ANNIE · « **Reply #45 on:** May 05, 2011, 08:24:59 PM »

Oh yes, JoanP,
I finally got the same idea. In one of the pics, its shown as being right in the wall of the school. Well, did you read the non complementary remarks made about the high school? Advising parents to look elsewhere.

pedln · « **Reply #46 on:** May 05, 2011, 09:16:28 PM »

Let's see if this works. Here are some of the townhouses/rowhouses near Gramercy Park which was at the end of Irving Place. #44 Irving Place was a four-story building that would most likely be similar. These buildings were built in the mid-1800's.

It appears that Clara feels right at home at 44 Irving Place, fast becoming friends with George Waldo and his brother Edwin. But poor Clara. She really faces a dilemma when it comes to relationships with men. Not that she doesn't like or love them, and they her, but she can't have her cake and eat it too. Which does she love more? With which can she live without?

What do you think of her relationship with Edwin. And what about Edwin. Some of his behavior seems a bit bizarre. I was surprised when she accepted a theatre invitation from Mr. Belknap. What do y ou make of that?

Steph · « **Reply #47 on:** May 06, 2011, 08:23:07 AM »

Edwin has something a bit off for me.. I think Clara must really look to her priorities.. I was so shocked at the death of the woman who worked with her.. I am sure this is a true picture of a period.. How sad though.

ANNIE · « **Reply #48 on:** May 06, 2011, 11:00:55 AM »

I found this older photo of Madison Square Garden and wanted to plant it here as the boarding house group get ready to go to the Gas Exhibit in Madison Square Garden.

ANNIE · « **Reply #49 on:** May 06, 2011, 11:18:08 AM »

As the boarding house group prepares for a trip to Madison Square Garden, Edwin presents another of his talents by playing "Sidewalks of New York" while Ms Merry sings it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsx_uxISjM0

In this link is told the story of the composer of this wonderful old song and then, with many pictures of old New York streaming by, someone sings the words. Wonderful pictures of days gone by. Enjoy!

My gosh, here's more pics of that time in NYC along with the music. Wonderful old photos!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwUQTCJTuqI&feature=related

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #50 on:** May 07, 2011, 01:19:52 PM »

I am enjoying all the comments and links, fun, fun!

PEDLIN, I read the chapters a few days ago but rather forget the particulars. I am skimming over Edwin and George's personalities, let's see.

George was a painter, an ice skater, carefree, spent money wildly......

Edwin was a sympathetic person, caring, saved his money, hated cold weather (and who doesn't?), and loved books.

A choice? I'd date both of them for different reasons - if I were asked!

Clara has been married, and is now a widow, time to be a bit wild herself maybe? A way to get back in the groove?

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #51 on:** May 07, 2011, 01:24:23 PM »

They are off to the Majestic Hotel on Central Park West and 77 Streets. I'll see if I can find that. But one of the guests is Stanford White - you've probably read about him?? He was shot on the dining roof of a famous hotel, I'll look that up also. There have been books written about that case.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #52 on:** May 07, 2011, 01:36:11 PM »

The former Majestic Hotel - read all about it!

http://www.thecityreview.com/uws/cpw/cpw115.html

And if you can stomach all the ads and have the patience for this, the Majestic is in this Rand McNally Map somewhere - the map or book, is dated 1899 - wow! How great is that?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21005955/1889-Greater-New-York-Illustrated

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #53 on:** May 07, 2011, 01:39:07 PM »

Stanford White - famous architect of NYC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_White

ANNIE · « **Reply #54 on:** May 07, 2011, 03:44:37 PM »

Ella,
Nice pics in your first link but just an ad for a book about Illustrated NYC in the second. All pics were blocked out (blacked?).
I saw a movie about the murder of Stanford White by Harry Thaw when I was a teen. In beautuful living color!!
Here's a link to it: http://www.answers.com/topic/the-girl-in-the-red-velvet-swing-1

JoanP · « **Reply #55 on:** May 07, 2011, 08:30:11 PM »

Is Clara the only single woman in the boarding house - with all those men? I know she's a widow, but she is quite eligible. Ella, you're funny - you'd date both Edwin AND George! Come to think of it, neither one of these brothers actually live in the house.
I think Clara has a thing for Mr. Tiffany - and doesn't know it. She wants praise and attention from him so badly. Her heart skips a beat in his presence. At the Tiffany fancy dress ball at the Majestic Hotel - "With a flutter inside, I anticipated my turn to be greeted." Does this sound like a normal relationship between an employee and her boss? Maybe it's simply that she is in love with her job.

I don't think Clara is ready to marry anyone again, do you?. She's having too good a time! "Marriage is a risky business under the best of circumstances," she says.

Yet George proposes to her -on behalf of his brother. As Ella says, Clara compares Edwin and George quite a bit - Doesn't George always seem more appealing? "More spirited, more creative, more intoxicated with life." She could be describing herself. She's described as a "plucky New Woman" - not an old-fashioned girl looking for a husband to lean on.

Steph, what did you find off-putting about the handsome Edwin? He's attentive, he claims he loves her - "what's more, I want you to love me." Hmmm

He tells her of his plan - to marry her and take her to Mexico where he will manage a coffee plantation. What will she do there? Why would she want to leave her life in New York for a coffee plantation in Mexico? Oh, and he also tells her he's spoken to his parents in Conn. about this - and they approve of his plan. This, before he's spoken to Clara about it. Do you think she'll agree to this?

I'd love to know more about the "New Woman" in the 1890's. Were there many as "plucky" and independent as Clara Driscoll at this time?

ANNIE · « **Reply #56 on:** May 07, 2011, 09:48:25 PM »

JoanP,
Take a look and some casual reads of this site? There were some women out there working! Running tiny businesses plus this lady, Wheeler, who was a busy bee!!

http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/wheeler.html

And don't miss this page:http://ocp.hul.harvard.edu/ww/people.html

pedln · « **Reply #57 on:** May 07, 2011, 10:54:27 PM »

Annie and Ella, wonderful links here. Don’t you just love the old New Yorkisms that Vreeland includes in the book. Sometimes I think I get more caught up in the links to the background, than in the book. But all of it is fascinating.

So Stanford White was the architect for Madison Square Gardens – the 2nd Gardens. He liked his women young, I guess. He was 47, Evelyn Nesbit was 16. And his murderer Harry Thaw was a bad apple from the word go. Thaw rather abused Evelyn Nesbit before they were married and treated her very shabbily afterwards. A lot of that story was in Doctorow’s Ragtime, was it not.

There were other single women at the boarding house JoanP, we just don’t hear much about them. A Miss Hettie, a Miss Lefevre, and an older woman Francie. Did Alice Gouvy ever come to the boarding house?

Yes, Clara is not only eligible, she seems more than able to hold her own with the men in her life. I wonder about her marriage to Francis. She says she loved him, but told Alice she married him out of guilt because he had paid for her sisters education. (p.44) Apparently he was much (?) older. He must have been surprised to find he had such an independent wife. But what kind of man blames his wife for is inadequacies? You’re right Ella, she needs a chance to be a bit wild, get her groove back.

George, more than Edwin, seems to be more her type. He is fun, very uninhibited – he brushes her hair, he paints her room, and wants her to marry his brother. I’ve been wondering why he moved out of the boarding house, but it’s because he’s now in the studio next door. No doubt light, etc. had something to do with that move.

Independent , articulate, and talented as she is, I think Clara is really fighting some demons. Edwin’s behavior at George’s country studio in Nutley is strange, unbelievable. Yet in one moment she says’ that he’s inconsiderate and she’s miffed at him, and in the next she says she’ll go to Lake Geneva with him, and she’ll quit Tiffany Studios. Go figure.

MaryH · « **Reply #58 on:** May 08, 2011, 03:36:45 AM »

I'm new to this bookclub and wanted to say hi! I just got the book on kindle and am only on chapter four...so will probably just lurk for a while. I thought I would be further in the book by now. But...I am having so much fun following your conversations and links that it is really slowing me down. I just wanted to say thanks so much and I'll try to catch up!

Laura · « **Reply #59 on:** May 08, 2011, 07:36:15 AM »

I am surprised that some of you are considering pairing Clara and George. I never thought it was an option. I assumed he was gay!

JoanP · « **Reply #60 on:** May 08, 2011, 08:03:26 AM »

But Laura, that doesn't mean that Clara isn't attracted to him, does it? I'm thinking of the time he proposed to her on Edwin's behalf - He tells her it would be a "delicious kind of union - plucky New woman and idealistic New Man." Do you remember her response? "I'd much rather it were you," she said softly.

And even more telling, unless you don't count dreams...remember when Edwin left her abruptly in Nutley, New Jersey...she had the dream that she was getting married - and when she got to the altar, it was George, not Edwin waiting for her.

Was Edwin really sick when he left? I don't believe that. Hadn't he been brooding all evening, even before he felt sick? Why didn't he just excuse himself and come back when he felt better - instead of just disappearing into the night, leaving her with George. There's something going on with him. And Clara too - suddenly she decides she'll quit Tiffany's and go off with Edwin? Really? We know that's not going to happen - or the book would be finished, don't you think? Why does she do things like this? Do you understand her?

Annie, thanks for the links. I came in to read them this morning. I'm interested in this "New Woman of the 1890's. She isn't my own Great Grandmother. I'd love to hear about yours. Were they "New Women"?

Mary H - from Alaska! Wonderful. Welcome! Can't wait to get to know you - when you get caught up.

JoanP · « **Reply #61 on:** May 08, 2011, 08:27:25 AM »

Thanks for those links, Annie. I'm still musing on the discrepancies between the lives of my own great grandmothers, and these liberated women we are now reading about. I found two more interesting links you might like -

The New Woman

"Women's lives at the end of the nineteenth century were changing dramatically on various fronts, most visibly so for daughters middle and upper classes.

White, native-born women were joining white foreign-born and black women in the labor force for first time and despite exploitative conditions under which they sometimes labored. These women were increasingly to be found in the previously male domains of business and the professions. The percentage of female professionals reached an historic peak in the early twentieth century while new and highly visible white collar occupations provided work for secretaries and salesgirls. Women in the professions were only 6.4% of non-agricultural female work force in 1870 but were 10% in 1900 and 13.3.% in 1920, representing almost one million women."

Women in New York City, 1890-1940

During this period, the "True Woman" identity which many women embraced during the nineteenth century was challenged by women who called themselves (and were called) "New Women." In addition, many women--some new arrivals to New York City--challenged the validity of either identity as defining their own experiences as women. In the course from which the website developed, we read and discussed primary and secondary accounts of the lives of women radicals in Greenwich Village, immigrant women, Bowery Girls, working women, African-American intellectual women, Blues singers and songwriters, women artists, and many other kinds of women.

Do you remember anything of Clara's background - her family circumstances, her education - BEFORE she met Francis? My memory is like a sieve these days...

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #62 on:** May 08, 2011, 09:11:13 AM »

i JUST HAVE TIME FOR A QUICK PEEK THIS MORNING.

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL MOTHERS EVERYWHERE!

AND A HEARTY, WARM WELCOME TO MARY - HI MARY UP THERE IN ALASKA!! WHAT'S YOUR SPRING WEATHER LIKE?

ANNIE · « **Reply #63 on:** May 08, 2011, 10:32:43 AM »

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY

Just a quick peek this morning and good morning to our newest member, MaryH! And good morning to Laura, JoanP, and Ella.

I didn't have a "NEW WOMAN" great grandmother but I did have a great aunt who was thrown into the work force in the early 1900's when her husband left her with three children to raise on her own. She became a very successful milliner, having her own shop downtown giving her the needed exposure for her beautiful hats. Our only collectible from her is a family quilt that she spent many hours making for her daughter(my aunt Betty)and her new husband(Uncle Bill).

I also have another great aunt from the other side of the family who probably could have run the oval office. She was widowed in 1919 when the pandemic flu struck down the love of her life,Tom, she went on to start several small businesses which made her quite wealthy. She owned her own lovely home and even had a chauffeur for awhile. But, somewhere in '30s she met Walter and married him. He was younger than she was but she thought he loved her. Walter absconded with all of her money, jewelry and limosine(maybe he had been her chauffeur?) and went to Hollywood where he did not succeed. Poor Aunt Liz died(in '57) with neither a pot nor a window to her name.

My reason for being here this morning was to leave an article from a book concerning the women of Connecticut who had wonderful exhibit at Columbian Exhibit in women's building. I was looking for Harriet Beecher Stowe on that women working site and this is what I found about her and White City. Her story starts on page 93.

http://books.google.com/books?vid=HARVARD32044011771573&printsec=titlepage#v=onepage&q&f=false

pedln · « **Reply #64 on:** May 08, 2011, 09:33:00 PM »

Ay, Annie, the story of your Aunt Liz and the despicable Walter is one that is unfortunately too familiar to many women. I had dinner today with a family who had an aunt experience something very similar. I’ve scanned some of the material in the Women of Conn. book, found the bust of Harriet Beecher Stowe.

MaryH, you’re here!! That’s wonderful. Don’t worry about being behind, we’re just glad you’re with us. And you’ll soon catch up. But I agree with you , it’s so easy to get caught up in all the links. Whenever you’re ready with a comment, will be fine with us. (I’m reading this on a kindle, too.)

So many books here, so much to see and talk about, so little time. I’ve browsed through parts of the the New Women. In spite of low numbers for educated or professional women, it sounds like we were making progress.

Now, what about this. Clara was really counting on changing Mr. Tiffany’s policy about married women working. And of course, she didn’t. But she still quit. Why, I wonder. Granted, it was sort of a trial run, but she seems pretty mixed up. And Edwin!! Will he be found, why do you think he ran?

Quote

Do you remember anything of Clara's background - her family circumstances, her education - BEFORE she met Francis? My memory is like a sieve these days...

J

oanP, there is a little of that on p.44. And I know there is more somewhere, but it slips in here and there. Clara must have some education as we know that she taught school back in Ohio. She also mentioned taking some classes at the Metropolitan Museum.

What do you all think? Will art or marriage win out? Can she really be happy with Edwin when we know she really likes George? Even though he’s unattainable?

Laura · « **Reply #65 on:** May 09, 2011, 06:51:31 AM »

Joan said: But Laura, that doesn't mean that Clara isn't attracted to him [George], does it?

I hear what you are saying. Yes, Clara does seem to be attracted to him. However, I could clearly see that George was gay and unavailable and felt bad for Clara because she did not see it. Therefore, I didn’t entertain any notions of them being a couple because I knew that George was unavailable, even if Clara did not.

ANNIE · « **Reply #66 on:** May 09, 2011, 09:04:09 AM »

Here's quite a nice find. I googled "Lake Geneva, WI, 1890's photos and postcards" and up pops these post cards which show what a popular vacation spot the lake and area around it was. You can go down through the cards seeing an already crowded and popular place welcomed Edwin and Clara.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=lake+geneva+WI

pedln · « **Reply #67 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:32:32 AM »

Laura, perhaps Clara knew George was gay, but it didn't stop her from liking him best. Edwin seems a pretty serious sort of guy. Nothing wrong in that, but I think Clara would have liked to see some of George's light side in him.

That is a nice find, Ann. Lots of good pictures. I grew up on Lake Michigan, about 50 some miles east of Lake Geneva. It might as well have been 200 miles, as I t hink I was pretty-well grown before I ever went there. Lots of resorts. In Clara's day it was the place for wealthy Chicagoans to escape to. To my mind, it was the sort of place to go for lunch at one of the hotels, and then browse in the gift shops. My last visit a few years ago we took the boat ride and I was just amazed at all the mansions there.

Here we are in Lake Geneva, WI. Edwin had a big success, a standing ovation after the speech in Chicago. Clara jokes that maybe he’ll have another one that night. And they both did. So what happened?

ANNIE · « **Reply #68 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:44:31 AM »

Whoa! She was a pretty sassy young lady, wasn't she? I wonder if having a sad marriage which ended with the death of her husband earlier made her more confident in what she said to Edwin? He didn't seem to pick up on that line about having a standing ovation later in the evening at all. Wonder what he was thinking about as he looked out the window from Kaye's Hotel.
Speaking of that hotel, I found reference to it but no photo. On a tiny map, it showed the grounds sitting right at the edge of the lake. I did find a post card with a picture of another hotel on Lake Geneva. You can enlarge it and see the clothes that they wore at the time. My goodness, they must have really been over heated! They could have just stayed in Chicago but removed some that clothing and been cooler!

http://cgi.ebay.com/POSTCARD-Lake-Geneva-WI-Hotel-Glenwood-1907-/320665658277?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D200603992161%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9030652719445041345#ht_1361wt_1025

pedln · « **Reply #69 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:52:06 AM »

Here's a picture of Kaye's Park Hotel. Do you think it looks fancy? Of course, lake property no matter what's on it is very valuable. I wonder what's there now?

Kaye's Park Hotel

ANNIE · « **Reply #70 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:52:36 AM »

Nuts!

pedln · « **Reply #71 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:59:52 AM »

This is Younglands, a 50-room mansion, with a dining room that seats 100 at a single table. Clara would not have seen this as it was not completed until 1901 at a cost of $1 million dollars, but perhaps they were working on it.
Current amenities include a miniature golf course and gymnasium on the 4th floor, a three-lane bowling alley in the basement, and a roof-top swimming pool.

pedln · « **Reply #72 on:** May 09, 2011, 11:13:56 AM »

Looking at all these mansions and hotels, here at this very posh lake resort, don't you wonder how Clara could afford it. And George came, too. I doubt they're sharing a room, but they stayed for ten days. They had no choice there, but that costs too. And speaking of George, what do you think -- did he hold back on some things that Clara ought to have known before making a decision that could affect the rest of her life?

JoanP · « **Reply #73 on:** May 09, 2011, 11:27:35 AM »

I don't know if I'd hold it against George for not telling Clara that Edwin disappeared for a few days back in his school days, Pedln. That was a while ago, wasn't it? How long ago was he in school? For that matter, how old do you think Clara is at this time? My first thought was that she was in her mid - late twenties, but I've read the next few chapters, and know that she is older than that.

Of course there was the more recent "sick day" when he left Clara in Nutley, New Jersey - but Clara was in on that. George wants so badly for Edwin and Clara to marry, but I don't think he wants to see her get hurt. If he suspected Edwin might have a problem, I think he would have told her, don't you? And remember, the Waldo parental units had approved of Edwin's plan to marry Clara...

I've read only up to Chapter 20, so don't know yet if Edwin has returned. Do you think he's okay? Can you think of a reason he would hurry out after having spent what seems to have been a fantastic night with Clara? Can't help but wonder if this episode is part the collection of Clara's letters unearthed by Susan Vreeland. Will leave that alone for now.

Thanks for the great photos of the Lake - and the Kaye's Park Hotel especially. A good question - how did Clara and George pay for their stay here? I thought Edwin was going to foot the bill with the money he received for his Chicago talk. Maybe he paid Mr. Kaye up front? I hope so.

I found this 1882 view of the lake - if you click the link you can zero in and enlarge the different sections and see that it is really not all that developed.

Panoramic View of Lake Geneva - 1882

Check the bottom left corner for Kaye's place...

salan · « **Reply #74 on:** May 09, 2011, 11:34:57 AM »

It was obvious that George was gay. I think Clara knew that, too; but it didn't stop her from liking him best. He was certainly more fun than the serious Edwin. And what about Edwin??? Clara had the impression that their evening went well. How did Edwin feel? Did he mean to disappear; or was he coming back and something prevented him? Is he mentally disturbed? Will he show up again? So many questions.....
Sally

ANNIE · « **Reply #75 on:** May 09, 2011, 08:33:57 PM »

We are already into the new chapters of this week with Edwin and Clara extending their trip to Chicago up to Lake Geneva. They went to Kayes Hotel and Cottages. Although Kayes is no longer there, the land having been used for Northwestern Military School, I did find this picture of what must have been a similar resort/camp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/POSTCARD-Lake-Geneva-WI-Hotel-Glenwood-1907-/320665658277?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D200603992161%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9040104389031750242#ht_1361wt_1025

I hope this one works.

Steph · « **Reply #76 on:** May 09, 2011, 08:47:39 PM »

I just knew that something was off with Edwin and boom.. he disappears.. and not for the first time. She is better off, at least I think so.

ANNIE · « **Reply #77 on:** May 09, 2011, 08:59:08 PM »

So here comes George who is crushed by his brother's disappearance but he has held back something. Will he finally tell Clara about George's strange behavior before.
I love the picture's of Lake Geneva and the map. I enlarged it looking for a location for Kaye's but didn't see much more.
If my that link I left here comes up and you enlarge it, you can see why the vacationeers were so hot! Good grief, this was before the creations of those awful bathing suits that you see in old pictures of the beaches off New York's coast.

ANNIE · « **Reply #78 on:** May 09, 2011, 09:10:55 PM »

Nuts!

pedln · « **Reply #79 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:36:23 PM »

A good question, Sally, did Edwin mean to disappear?

What do you think of the conversation between Clara and Mr. Tiffany, when she comes back from Lake Geneva?

"Have you married him?"

"No"

"Then you are single," he said.

I said yes, realizing that Edwin had given me back my art.

"You are mine again?"

"Yes, I am yours --- if my work has pleased you"

"Shame on you for doubting."

Do you think that's why Edwin left -- to give her back her art? I agree, STeph, she is better off without him.

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Author Topic: Clara and Mr. Tiffany by Susan Vreeland May Bookclub Online (Read 89200 times)