Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online Prediscussion  (Read 24578 times)

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2011, 06:11:07 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.


Please Post below if you can join us in June!
 Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam
"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)

The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”
  Library Journal  
********************************

Discussion Schedule for next week:

June 1 - June 5   ~ Part I  Scene:  Inner Temple; The Donheads; Kotakinakulu; Inner Temple  pgs.  1 - 48  (up to the Wales Chapter)
********************************



Some Pre-discussion topics for Consideration
May 18 - 31

1 "The older you get, it all returns to childhood."    Are you finding this to be true in your own life?

2. Did you notice Jane Gardam's dedication in the front of the book?  What do you know of the "Orphans of the Raj" and their parents?  In what sense were these children orphans?

3. The author relates that Rudyard Kipling's short story,  "Baa Baa Black Sheep,"  made a great impression on her.  You'll find links here in the heading to  this story and a short biography of Kipling.


Related Links:
  A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
  Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";
  BBC interview with Jane Gardam on Old Filth, 2006;

Discussion Leaders:  Traude  & Joan P


Steph:   I hav e chapter heading, but I did not download the Kindle version, but the Ibook version. I have four different ebook downloads on my IPAd..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 11:48:55 AM »
MaryH is joining us from Southeast Alaska - our newest poster!  Please bring her a comfortable chair, a cuppa something and give her a warm Welcome!

I can't get over the technology in use here.  A far cry from our old book discussions when our only consideration was the page numbers in hardback and paperback!  Thank heaven for those Chapter Titles.  Are we all set for next week, then?  We will be discussing the pages up to the WALES chapter...and not beyond.  This is not to say that you can't read ahead, we'd never say that.  BUT we ask you not to reveal anything beyond the first page of Wales.

I've read the first section - and loving Jane Gardham's economic descriptive style.

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2011, 06:02:36 AM »
I hope by the weekend to be reading the book.. But life is hectic for the next few days,, plus I have become addicted to the Casey Anthony trial locally. Whew.. the girl simply could not use the truth in her life. Amazing.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2011, 11:38:58 AM »
It's like tragic-comedy in some places, isn't it?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2011, 06:04:54 AM »
Alf,, yes, yesterday was a parade of boyfriends and others.. She partied the entire month.. No matter how the lawyer twists it, she never showed one moment of any panic or pain or remorse.. Her boyfriend at that time made it clear.. Her making faces all day does not help her case.. Her lawyer needs to talk to her.. The second chair, Cheney Mason got to cross a witness at the end. He is so very much better than her primary.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2011, 08:28:20 AM »
 STEPH, I begin to think this woman lives in a world of her own.  She tells it like
she wants it to be, and lives it as though it was true. 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2011, 10:31:40 AM »
aaaaHHHHHHHHHHH- to be in that world of idealism just for one day.........I'm far too much of a realist to live that way.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2011, 01:33:25 PM »
I picked up a copy of the book yesterday, so will be here for the opening.

JOANP, to answer Question #1 in the heading, yes, to some extent that is true.  I find myself speaking too much of the past to my daughter who is absorbed in her own life and seems a bit uninterested in my conversation; at least she doesn't respond in kind.  She, of course, will someday be more interested.

At my age, I have much less future than I had the past.  I am horrified at times when commentators or someone refers to the Kennedy years, the Civil Rights movement, the Vietnam War as historical events that happened some 40 -50 years ago.  Truly not!  



straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2011, 03:52:43 PM »
It is a true pleasure for me that so many of you expressed the interest to join us in this discussion. This is a renewed, heartfelt  collective welcome for all of you. 

At this point we are in a prediscussion, which can be difficult sometimes  because they EXclude anything that does not pertain to the book itself. Bridging the time to Jun 1st, we have talked about the custom of sending young Anglo children Home (and the word is always capitalized) to England, a total separation of children and parents for years, often inflicting irreparable emotional damage in those  "Orphans of the Raj".

We have four days let before the discussion officially begins, and that might be enough time for us to lthink, for example, of what connection there is between Hong Kong and London, what more we could possibly learn about an old universally admired barrister with a stellar professional reputation (and immense wealth).  What bright Old Filth to where he is when the book begins ? Are there untold secrets ?


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2011, 10:57:00 PM »
straudetwo~ Sending children away to be educated and cared for my total strangers or relatives for years is something I had no idea they did in England or other places in the world.  I own my in home day care and just the amount of hours in a week some children spend with me, I feel is too much time away from their parents, I couldn't imagine them being apart for years.  I read Baa Baa Blacksheep by Kipling and it broke my heart how Punch was treated.  But then when children have parents such as Casey Anthony, they are better off with strangers.  Hmmm...did you like my segway?

Steph~ I wish I could find the channel so I could dvr the trial.  That girl is incredible, I can't keep up with all her lies.  I pray her parents had nothing to do with the death or cover up of that sweet little angel.

Okay just got my book yesterday so I intend to begin reading it tomorrow.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2011, 06:15:04 AM »
I knew that my parents talked about the English children who came to the US during WWII.. To get away from the bombing.. That had to have been hard on both the parents and the children.. And think of the railroad children, who were loaded on trains in NYC and trained west to start a new life as helpers on farms, etc.  Sending children away in times of stress seems to have been a well known alternative for them.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2011, 08:59:10 AM »
Ella, I find myself "going back"  too - the older I become.  I can just see Cindy rolling her eyes listening to your stories.  I don't think I talk to my boys about my childhood, but I do find that many (most?) of my views of the world, most of the ways I respond to situations - all go back to childhood and the boarding school experience at that young age.  I guess I believe that those who had a more stable, or a more complete childhood, undisturbed childhood, look back at childhood in a very different way.  

My heart broke for Kipling's "Punch" too, Bellamarie.  

From Kipling's biography -
"His early years in India, until he reached the age of six, seem to have been idyllic, but in 1871 the Kipling family returned to England. After six months John and Alice Kipling returned to India, leaving six-year old Rudyard and his three-year-old sister as boarders with the Holloway family in Southsea. During his five years in this foster home he was bullied and physically mistreated, and the experience left him with deep psychological scars and a sense of betrayal.

Between 1878 and 1882 he attended the United Services College at Westward Ho in north Devon. The College was a new and very rough boarding school where, nearsighted and physically frail, he was once again teased and bullied, but where, nevertheless, he developed fierce loyalties and a love of literature."


Steph, I knew that children were taken to the country for protection during the war...and agree that must have been difficult for both parents and children.  But do I sense that it was more of a hardship for the children of the Empire sent to England at a young age to live with foster parents -and then on to school.  Isn't this most of one's childhood?
Gum says that this was a common practice, not at all unusual in the days of the Empire.  I can't help but think that after so many years away from one's family would have to cause some sort of trauma - varying degrees depending on how one was treated during those formative years.

Maybe we need to understand more about the British Empire here - and its extent.  If it was common practice to send a young child HOME, for early child care and then schooling, how many children must there have been in foster care?  That must be a booming business! Did any children remain with their families?
Let's talk about the British Empire a bit -   I'll try to find a map.  Maybe you can help?

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2011, 10:27:43 AM »
"When the British Empire was at its height in the early 1900s, it included over 20 percent of the world's land area and more than 400 million people - the single largest empire in the history of the world since time began. This remarkable achievement by a country half the size of France, was a tribute to the superb organizational skills of the White empire builders of that nation: the saying that the "sun never set on the British Empire" was very close to the truth: because of its geographic spread, some territory, somewhere, was always in the daylight hours."

http://www.white-history.com/hwr46.htm

kidsal

  • Posts: 2620
  • Howdy from Rock Springs, WY
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2011, 05:43:06 AM »
I would think that if you spent nine or more months a year away from your family that they would be the strangers.  You would be more connected to the people you met in school. 

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2011, 06:09:38 AM »
Senior learn website and I are arguing it out this am.. Some days, it just wont load. but now it seems better.
The upper class English still send their sons away quite early.. I think around 8 to boarding school..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2011, 05:30:06 PM »
Dear fellow readers,  I apologize for not having posted these last few days of our pre-discussion and assure you I have not forgotten my duties.
The problem was our miserable New England weather where winter is harsh and interminable and unexpectedly morphs into summer, entirely forgetting spring. The transition was especially abrupt this year when the heat was on till last Monday and central air an urgent necessity two days later.

Something we cannot do in pre-discussions is getting into the respective book itself,  and that can be limiting. In the current case we were drawn to the subject of Orphans of the Raj because of the author's dedication, but not much else.  
I know JoanP has prepared questions for the first assignment and additional graphs for the header. In the days remaining before June 1st, we might wonder what more there is to learn about Old Filth, a universally respected, admired, successful  barrister and judge of impeccable manners and meticulous attire - if chronologically behind.

Is there the possibility of a secretive past ? And wht about Hong Kong ? What do we know about this allegedly fabulous place ?
I admit that I didn't think much about it until I happened on one of Shirley Macean's books, which was set in H.K. and sounded like a dream -
one of those that are ephemeral, evanescent  ...

WThis is a new,collective welcome to all of you who are ready to participate.
And greetings on this Memorial Day.
Traude

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2011, 06:56:43 PM »
I agree, kidsal, after 8 or 9 months away at school, away from family, parents would  become like stangers to a child.  As Steph says, it is quite common to send  eight year olds away to boarding school.  Maybe they get to come home for vacations - or parents can come to visit?

But it seems that those living in far-flung countries during the days of the Empire - sent even younger children HOME to England, either to relatives or to foster familie  for health reasons - or to escape the brutal heat.  And from these foster homes, they went on to boarding school.  From what I can tell, there were many children who did not see their parents for YEARS.  I can't imagine a parent-child relationship survived this period of estrangment during the formative years.  I may be wrong.  I hope I'm wrong.

Traude, I know of your concern about our lack of geographic knowledge - (I  confessed ignorance of the extent of the British Empire.)  If you have a few minutes, here's a two minute lesson on the Brtish Empire...well done, I think -


"When the British Empire was at its height in the early 1900s, it included over 20 percent of the world's land area and more than 400 million people - the single largest empire in the history of the world since time began. This remarkable achievement by a country half the size of France, was a tribute to the superb organizational skills of the White empire builders of that nation: the saying that the "sun never set on the British Empire" was very close to the truth: because of its geographic spread, some territory, somewhere, was always in the daylight hours. "

So it must have taken many Brits to administer these colonies - to maintain the trade,  to staff the garrisons ...and that means a lot of children needed to be sent HOME for safety and education.

JoanR

  • Posts: 1093
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2011, 07:50:01 PM »
I'm  so happy to see this discussion here since "old Filth" is one of my favorite books.  I read it some time ago as a library book as well as "The Man In the Wooden Hat" which fills in a lot more of the story.  I ordered my own copies of these books from Amazon since they are both definitely "keepers".  The books came a few days ago so I am prepared for the discussion.  I will, of course, have to make a huge effort not to committ "spoilers".

One of the things that is fuzzy to me is the English trial procedures. I need to have the lawyers roles clarified since I am confused about advocates, barristers and solicitors and who does what!  This isn't really necessary to the enjoyment of the book, I suppose, but it would be nice to get these things straight!  Rosemary?????

The really wonderful thing about this book is Gardam's marvelous prose.  She can say in one wondrfully illuminating phrase or two what would take a lesser talent a whole page to express.  The book is also very visual - you see everything happening right before you.

Thanks for bringing it here!!!

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2011, 08:05:56 PM »
Thank YOU for joining us, JoanR!  You always add so much to a discussion - and your love for Jane Gardam's writing is obvious...  I'm quite sure that RosemaryK has expressed interest in joining us in this discussion.  She herself is a barrister - or a solicitor...or? Plus she knows the language!  As in "His shoes shone like conkers."  Oops...two days early with that...
Welcome, Joan!

Gumtree

  • Posts: 2741
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2011, 03:08:08 AM »
"His shoes shone like conkers."  

Conkers are the nut of the horse chestnut - they's really shiny and kids used to play games with them -

http://www.lemonlight.org/photos/uncategorized/conkers.jpg
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2011, 06:08:03 AM »
Aha,, Conkers I knew.. Some state in the midwest has candy that they call conkers.. brown and shiny.. I cant remember which one, just that you saw them everywhere.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2011, 08:13:01 AM »
 Alas, I still do not have  a copy of the book.  It appears I will be joining you late; I hope not too
much later.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2011, 12:32:27 PM »
Ha! The author had a lot of pieces left. It's true. There are huge gaps in the story. Fifty years can go by with  a turn of the page. How clever! The author left herself with plenty for a subsequent volume. This book is written in what I think of as the humpty-dumpty narrative style. It's an attempt at a  tour de force in putting a smashed life back together again. Hope I haven't spoiled it. Back later. I'm on my way out to get my hands on The Man In The Wooden Hat.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2011, 06:57:18 PM »
Don't give up, Babi.  We're going to be focusing on the first 50 pages or so this week - not so much that you can't catch up.  Is your daughter having difficulty locating the book - or is the timing off with the holiday and all?

Gum, thanks so much for "conkers" - photo and all.  I can definitely see the shoes metaphor there.   Steph, can you describel the candy you remember?  Was it  like rock candy?

Jonathan - love the fresh way you describe Gardham's style - "a humpty-dumpty narrative - a  tour de force in putting a smashed life back together again."  
I don't know what's to come, but if it turns out to be true, the whole idea of making sense of one's life - one's "smashed" life - and putting it back together again after you've turned 80 - that's intriguing!  So happy you plan to join us, Jonathan!  Welcome!


I found us another map - to give us an idea of the size of the British Empire -
click on map twice to enlarge

Can we talk briefly about Hong Kong under British rule?  Today?  I confess ignorance.
 This might help us prepare for Filth's  story when we begin the discussion on Wednesday.  

rosemarykaye

  • Posts: 3055
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2011, 04:13:04 AM »
I am here at last - apologies for lateness!  And can you believe that just as I got to the last post and started to type, cat woke up and is now trying to stand on the keyboard   ::)

I had trouble tracking down a copy - mine being in that black hole otherwise known as Storage - but I now have one waiting for me at the local library, will collect later today or tomorrow (both daughters on half term holidays at the moment, so I have insisted we do some culture today - it's brilliantly sunny here and we can walk along the Waters of Leith to the Dean Gallery and the Museum of Modern Art).  I have read the book, and some of Gardam's others, before, but I certainly need to refresh my memory.

Sending children away was endemic amongst the upper/upper middle classes in the first part of the 20th century - it was not just parents abroad who did it.  It was considered "what one did" to ensure ones children not only had a good education but also remained part of the ruling classes, learned their ways, developed their attitudes, etc.  People like this would never even have considered the local state schools - they would not even have considered the private day schools.

Nowadays the practice is still common amongst the rich and the aspiring.  They see it as buying a place for their children in the country's elite - and unfortunately they are probably right, as one newspaper recently did a survey that showed that vast numbers of our Members of Parliament (esp the men) came from a small number of top boarding schools - Cameron himself was at Eton (the poshest of them all), and Tony Blair was at Fettes (Eton's equivalent in Edinburgh).  You would find the same backgrounds in top businessmen, bankers, etc - the Old School Tie is still immensely important, and can open many doors for its members.  I heard recently that one of the Edinburgh merchant banks only recruits from certain Edinburgh public (ie top private) schools - although of course they would never be able to admit that.

I know several people who were sent to boarding school at a young age.  One of them says she enjoyed it - she is very hearty and was brought up not to complain - the other two absolutely loathed it and were deeply unhappy.  As a result, the male of these two has insisted on sending his own children to the local state schools - the woman has married into the local aristocracy and all of her children have been sent away to school against her wishes, because "that is what the family does".

The Raj parents sent their children Home for the reasons already stated - health and education - but the real question in my mind is, why did the mothers stay?  And it all boils down to Duty.  The British really thought that it was their duty to rule India, and the wives thought it was theirs to stay with their husbands.  These days - esp in Aberdeen - many men work overseas because of the oil industry.  Sometimes the whole family goes, esp if there is a British or International school available, sometimes the children are sent back to UK boarding schools (particularly as the fees are paid by the oil companies, so some parents see this as a way of getting a much "better" education for their children than they could otherwise have afforded).  One of my friend's daughters lasted three weeks before she asked to be taken back to the Middle East, as she was so unhappy - her mother came and got her, but not everyone would do that - there is still a culture, especially amongst the upper classes, of stiff upper lip and "making a man" of ones child, etc.

Re Hong Kong, I don't know much about it either - in my lifetime it has always been much more westernised than China, with many, many Hong Kong students coming to the UK (and the US I think) to study.  There are also many Hong Kong children in some UK boarding schools.  The UK did, of course, have to give it back to China some years ago - I do remember seeing Chris Patten (the last governor and a good man) and his family sailing out of the harbour for the last time, in the darkness, surrounded by fireworks and celebrations.  It was a very emotional scene and his daughters were crying.

Re lawyers - yes I am a solicitor.  In England, the legal profession is split into two branches - barristers appear in court and cannot contact clients directly, everything been done through the solicitor, who is more of the front man/woman.  Solicitors see clients in their offices and offer a broad range of services, from litigation (court matters, civil and criminal) to wills, probate, employment advice, licensing, commercial work, conveyancing (house buying/selling), etc.  Nowadays solicitors do have "rights of audience" in some of the lower courts, but only barristers can appear in the higher courts, and they would also still be instructed to appear in the lower courts sometimes.  The barristers are the ones who wear the wigs and gowns.  Barristers work in what are called chambers, - in London they are mostly situated around the Inns of Court, off the Strand.  Each Chambers will be serviced by several clerks - these are often "East End boys" (or girls), who have a sharp eye for cutting the deals and agreeing the fees with the instructing solicitors.  The barristers are still largely upper class people who went to the right schools (see above!), especially as the training for the job is very long and expensive, and you then need to know people to get into one of the Inns of Court.  (There are, however, a few high profile "left wing" chambers who would be more likely to sponsor applicants from less exalted backgrounds).  There is, however, a great interdependence between the barristers and the clerks, as without the clerks  (who get a cut of the barrister's fee for each job) the barristers wouldn't have any work.  Incidentally, only barristers can apply to become judges - hence the further perpetuation of the class system, and the reason we have so many judges who are completely out of touch with the real world. 

If you want to get a general idea of how it all works, you could try the novels of Caro Fraser, which are a bit soapy but are set in a barristers' chambers in London and are easy reads.

I will stop now!  Sorry I promise to try not to go on so long in future!  :-X  The boarding school system, and the way it perpetuates the class system in the UK, is something that really gets me going  >:(

Rosemary

kidsal

  • Posts: 2620
  • Howdy from Rock Springs, WY
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2011, 04:20:21 AM »
Little off subject but do enjoy Law and Order UK -- Law and Order with wigs!

Steph

  • Posts: 7952
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2011, 05:59:17 AM »
 OhRosemary, now for the very first time, I understand your legal system. I was always puzzled by who did what.. Thanks for making it clear for all of us.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2011, 08:33:19 AM »
 I have always found it astonishing to think that the huge British Empire
began, and was ruled from, one tiny island with only a handful of people,
compared to it's conquests. The secret of course....they ruled the sea.

 Thanks for that commentary, ROSEMARY. I found it very helpful. I especially
note your comment, Incidentally, only barristers can apply to become judges
- hence the further perpetuation of the class system, and the reason we have
 so many judges who are completely out of touch with the real world.

 It occurs to me that observation may be a key to 'Old Filth'.


"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2011, 09:12:09 AM »
Thanks for the maps and the posts.  Illuminating.  I don't have time this morning to do them justice, but later....

However, I quickly found the British interest in Hong Kong in the 19-20th century, to give us an idea of Filth's prominence in that world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hong_Kong_(1800s%E2%80%931930s)

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4147
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2011, 02:49:49 PM »
RosemaryK~Thank you so much for all the info, I am totally ignorant to anything and everything British other than I am a bit fixated on the Royal family. You always come through for us since so many of our books are based in some region near or in England.  

I felt so sad for Edward when he returned and his father gave him no attention.  Then when Alistair says, "I say you can. I am your father." As the saying goes out of the mouth of babes when Edward replied, "You can't be....Because you've been here all the time without me."   I've always felt British people to be a bit detached from emotions, and it makes me wonder if being sent away from their family at such a young age, and for such a long time is the effect of this.

I rather like the dynamics of Veneering and Old Filth, anxious to see if we see more of them.

Egads....I decided to listen to the interview from the link provided, a had to stop because it gives away too much from chapters I have not read yet.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2011, 04:47:51 PM »
Ella, thanks for the link - it explains the British presence in Hong Kong - and the 100 year treaty and lease that was up in 1997 - as a result of the OPIUM WARS - and the British rights to trade silver and other goods for this sought-after drug 100 years before.  So interesting!

Rosemary, just the person to explain the difference between the solicitors and the barristers  (who wear the gowns and the wigs).    And most interesting to learn that only barristers can become judges.  Your post is so important to this discussion, I'd like to try to save it  for when we close this Prediscussion and open the new one tomorrow.

Bellamarie...when we begin to discuss the opening chapters tomorrow, will you please copy your post into the new discussion? (Unless you're referring to information that comes in after the Wales chapter, okay?)

We're almost ready to begin...hope to see you on opening day!

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2011, 11:34:08 PM »
Geography was one of my favorite subjects in school, and in one of the classes I first heard about Hong Kong and was fascinated.
When we learned about the 19th century opium wars, I read everything I could lay my hands on about these wars,  about trade, trade imbalance and trade expansion, and  Hong Kong being ceded to Britain after these wars. The Japanese invaded the colony during WW II, but after Victory over Japan, British rule was restored.

When the British Empire fell with the Partition of India in 1947, Hong Kong remained British.  But pressure from mainland china was brought to bear. Fifty years later, on July 1, 1997,  the last British governor,  Chris Patten, left the colony, as Rosemary has already said in an earlier post, and Hong Kong reverted to China.

In the eighties I read several books by Shirley MacLaine;  in one of them (I can't remember the title) she describes a stay to Hong Kong, some of her favorite sights, restaurants, shops, which made me long to see for myself. (There was also a romance, with a Russian movie director, if I remember correctly, but that wasn't nearly as interesting for me as the description of the city and Kowloon, and the harbor ...)

I'd like to thank JoanP for including the maps:  they demonstrate the vastness of the overseas Empire, effectively ruled from the much smaller British Isles. As Babi said in # 67, it is a marvel and amazing.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Book Club Online Prediscussion
« Reply #72 on: June 01, 2011, 01:23:34 AM »
Thanks for all this good information.  Surely it will help us to understand the background for the story. 

I think we're ready to move over to the new discussion-- just follow this yellow brick road - http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2274.0