Plutarch--October Classics Book Club

[JoanK]

Plutarch's Lives

Plutarch at the Museum of Delphi, Greece.

Ruins of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Plutarch was a priest

The readers have spoken and our next read October 1 will be: Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.) in his famous "Lives" or Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans; also called Parallel Lives.


     Schedule:

     Oct. 1-10: Pompey

     Oct. 11- 20:  Antony

     Oct. 21-?: Cicero

     Oct. ?: Coriolanus

     ?:  Windup

Marcus Tullius Cicero

Bertel Thorvaldsen, copy of Roman original, ca 1800

Cicero denouncing Catiline (Cesare Maccari)

Questions for Cicero

1. What is the role of the Orator in Roman society? Is there anyone in British or US history comparable to Cicero and the role he played?

2. What were Cicero's ambitions? His strong and weak points? How did they help/hurt him?

3. Cicero is the first Roman we've read about who was not accomplished in battle. How did this hurt him? How did it help him? What is the relationship between the army and politics in Rome?

4. Cicero is best known for suppressing Catiline's revolt. How did he do that?

5. Cicero is criticized all his life for executing Catiline's fellow rebels without a trial. Yet later, Augustus Caesar calmly agrees to execute Cicero as part of a bargain for power. What is the difference?

6. Are we getting to know our guide, Plutarch any better? What does this section tell us about his character?  
  

Discussion Leaders: JoanK and  PatH

Clough Translation-Roshanarose's Link

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


They didn't know as much about the workings of the brain then. Perhaps that is Cicero's vanity talking.

GINNY: Thank you so much. I loved that excerpt. I especially liked it when he said that if he wasn't going to be immortal, he doesn't want to know. At least he doesn't have to fear that those who say there is no life after death will say "I told you so!" when they are dead.

It's interesting that, in spite of the awful view of life after death in the Oddysey, he has the same view of it that we do: he'll be able to see his old friends again. Some things change and some things don't!

[PatH]

Cicero's freedman and secretary Tiro interests me very much.  He sounds both clever and accomplished.  He invented a shorthand system, preserved Cicero's speeches and letters and got them published, and wrote a biography of C.  They also seem to have been good friends.  When they were returning from governing Cilicia, Tiro became ill and had to be left behind.  One of the books I fished out of the downstairs bookcase (R. H. Barrow, The Romans) has a letter Cicero wrote to Tiro at this time.  It starts "I miss you very much and I thought I could bear it more easily, but I simply cannot....".  Then it goes on, alternating back and forth between concern for Tiro's health, urging him to be sure to get really well before continuing, and fussing about maybe now that you are rested you could come on, but don't compromise your health, but if you sailed now you could catch me up at Leucas, etc, etc.  It's amusing and touching.

Thanks for the info about the medieval manuscripts, Ginny.  I can just imagine the difficulty of reading them.  The manuscripts themselves probably aren't all that easy to read.  Then you are looking at someone's efforts to transcribe a centuries-old system, probably without fully understanding it.  The system itself may not be as logical and straightforward as modern shorthands.  And it undoubtedly had some abbreviated forms that stood for commonly used words; modern shorthand has these too, and many people make up more.  No wonder it takes a specialist.

[roshanarose]

Ginny - Thank you for the plausible answers and the research you did finding them re "Crassus".

[Babi]

 
So, from the definition of Croasus, Cicero could have been implying that Axios speech
was dense, heay, perhaps dull or uneducated?  That's pretty clever, hinting so much with
two words.
  What do you all think of this line from Plutarch: But the desire of glory has great power in
washing the tinctures of philosophy out of the souls of men...".   I suppose the experience of
adulation and admiration can do that.  Certainly, the lust for power has corrupted many a soul.

[PatH]

The more you look at Plutarch, the more little gems you find.

[Babi]

  Really, this reading and discussion of Plutarch has been a revelation.  I had only read the 'lives'
that interested me most at the time we selected this as a topic.  Cicero and Pompey have been a
revelation.  I had a number of misconceptions about Pompey, in particular, which I am very
pleased to have had corrected. 
  I did feel that Plutarch's fixed views of Mark Antony definitely biased his interpretations of the
events at the end.  No one knows what was actually in  Antony's mind,..or Cleopatra's...at that
climactic end.  Plutarch assumed the worst because of his long-held opinion of Antony. 
   Nevertheless, on the whole Plutarch does present a fair-handed description of his subjects,
illuminating both their virtues and their faults.  Most priceless were the little vignettes that gave
us insight into the personalities and made them real for us.

[JoanK]

Well, it's time to close this discussion. I've had a great time, and really increased my knowledge of Rome in that period. As always, discussing things with you guys is fun and an eye-opener. No matter what the subject, we always find when we put our heads and our knowledge together, we find out more than we ever dreamed possible.

[JoanR]

Many thanks for this discussion.  I'm happy to have discovered Plutarch's work - now I have my own copy as well as "The Basic Works of Cicero".  We had Cicero in 3rd year High School  Latin (a thousand years ago it seems) but only his speeches - his essays are well worth reading too. I plan to go on with Plutarch, reading the section on Caesar, which as well as interesting, should be useful as background for Latin class.
The section on Antony turned my idea of him (by way of Richard Burton!) totally upside-down - now he seems interesting as a study of a "fightin' man"  -more realistic and less admirable for sure.
Such wonderfully informative posts - thank you!  And such useful background and links from our leader.  Such patience too!  All much appreciated.

[PatH]

Well, I'm sad it's over.  Thanks for picking Plutarch; I hadn't read him, and it was indeed a revelation.  I'll keep on reading more.

You are all such great fellow-discussers.  You know so much--more than I do--and have such good ideas.  And as JoanK points out, all of us together are unbeatable.  It was great fun.

[Frybabe]

I've enjoyed what I could get read, and definitely enjoyed reading everyone's posts. By the time we get back to Plutarch and his Greek Lives, I expect I will have more time to devote to it. It seems my grant funding has dried up and is not likely to be available to pay for Spring classes (and neither will I at this point).

[Babi]

 Oh, what a disappointment, FRYBABE.  I'm so sorry to hear that.  Perhaps, between not and
Spring, you could pick up another grant.  Helping people get the training they need to get back
on the work force ought to be a priority out there, wouldn't you think?

  JOAN, PAT,  you have done such a great job with this Latin trio.  I'm really looking forward to
a future exploration of some of their Greek counterparts.  Kudos to you both.

[ginny]

Even if a person just skimmed the last few pages of the discussion itself in curiosity,  he'd  learn something he might not have known! Super job!

 I've loved the conversations here, so wide ranging and incisive and best of all, we're reading about the Romans, who are hot hot hot everywhere you turn. So that makes US au courant. And I love that people have really enjoyed learning about Plutarch, as he does form the basis for a lot of our English literature. I love the way he writes, you enter his own little world. The Caesar section particularly and Brutus in his tent, don't miss Brutus, watching his dreams of restoring the Republic exploding around him, the disillusionment and the despair.

The timelessness of the themes is a miracle to me, will we never learn from the past? To me so many of  these people are Everyman,  you'd think we could learn from their own example and mistakes. I still wonder if Caesar knew (and it appears he did) about the coming assassination but he went anyway to the Senate which was so characteristic of him. Did he just underestimate them?  Did hubris get in his way too? Plutarch has it all. I love that we are even talking about this subject and really am proud of you all.

(Do you ever contemplate which 3 figures from history you'd want to invite to a dinner if you could? Maybe when we finish the series, assuming we keep on in a series) we can say our  Dream Table. Only 3!! Caesar would be my first, I've got SO much to ask him, but the other two need to be dinner guests he'd enjoy too. I know the 2nd, the 3rd is still up for grabs.  A fun exercise on a beautiful fall day.

Joan and PatH have done a masterful job here.  I've loved the questions and the insightful comments by all. I loved the revelation comments, Babi! Plutarch to me IS just that, and I love the "you are there" feeling of his writing.

Frybabe, I am so sorry to hear that, aren't you almost through? Bummer!

My only regret is I  wish we had had more time, maybe the next time, if JoanK and PatH are willing. We had talked about reading Greek drama.  In one of our Latin  classes we're doing the Theater and  there are wonderful sites on the difference in Greek and  Roman theater architecturally and in composition, and some great places to quickly learn about the thematic structure of the plays.


Here's a great youtube presentation of the differences in Greek and Roman Theater architecturally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0xWwhW_SuU&feature=related, and here's a great Q&A on Greek Theater, who wrote it, what kinds of plays there were, Satyr Plays, etc., and how it differs from the Roman: would make an expert of us all:  it's absolutely excellent: http://www3.northern.edu/wild/th100/chapt11.htm.

 Both  of those presentations have a couple of technical flaws, typos, etc., but basically they are sound, and full of stuff I didn't know..   Watching them makes me want to try something Greek!

Just super job, I'm so proud to even see a website offering this! Kudos to all!

[Frybabe]

Yes, Ginny, two more classes for the Certificate. I might have foot the bill for them, but the steam pipe leak with the asbestos removal took care of that.

[JoanK]

FRY: what a bummer. But I'm sure you will win through.

Well, we're through with this discussion. But not with the classices by any means. Let us retire to our old website for observations on what we've read, and what we'd like to read next. See you there! (you can see where the old posts end and the new ones begin by my post number 157. Looking back, I see I thought Pompey was a town near Naples!

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2395.new#new