Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter

"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete. Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962."  - Goodreads

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
February 1-8   Part III The Harbors
"For here we have no continuing city...but we seek one to come."  St. Paul
 

1. The voyage seems to have  interfered with everyone's moral compass.    Was Porter's depressing conclusion as Frau Schmitt put it, that "the world is an evil place, we are all helpless" or is the author saying something else?

2. We've noticed Porter identifying the passengers with a wide array of animals.  Did you see an analogy with Noah and his passengers aboard the Ark?

3. The Vera has indeed become a "love boat" - at least temporarily.  Was there anyone left unaffected by the love bug? Do you see any evidence of charity or real concern for others?

4. Do you see why Dr. Schumann's silence is taken as sympathy for the denigrating remarks by some of the German passengers and officers aboard the ship?  Do the passengers' silence and indifference to the sufferings of others set the scene for what is to come?

5. "Even the moral father, the trusted wife  when traveling alone took a holiday from decency."  Is the Captain saying the moral turpitude aboard his ship is only temporary?   Remember he does add,  "Passengers don't know how to behave on ship - or on land either."

6. Do any of the characters change for the better?   Do you think they be different people when back on land?

7. There is much talk of death, murder and suicide in these pages.   Do the passengers seem to consider death as a desirable solution  to a life that is unbearable?  What effect did Echegaray's death have on the rest of the passengers?

8. Did you consider the ending of the book satisfactory?  What do you see as Porter's objective in telling this story?  Do you think she achieved it?
 Have you viewed the film adaptation of the novel?  Did it enrich your understanding of the book?      

Discussion Leaders:  Joan P  and  Marcie

[JoanP]

We're nearing THE HARBORS - actually I finished the last portion of the book last night -   and can hardly keep my mouth shut.  Couldn't wait to see how the author was going to end this twenty year odyssey.  I'm still wondering how much of those 20 years she spent working on it, or did she just decide to finish something she had started long ago?  I go back and forth. Did she suffer from writers' block after living through the horrors of WWII?  {Do we know where she was living during the war? Or what she was doing?}  

There is so much detail, to the point of being overworked sometimes, that I start to think she spent too much time on it. Her observations into the human condition in this point in time are often lost in the detail. Are you finding this to be so?  Does she believe in the fundamental goodness of man, as some of her passengers do?  If so, this belief will be put to the test in the very near future when considering the horrifics of the camps, to which she makes frequent reference.
Maybe the answer lies in those many details - are they examples of man's basic inhumanity to man - or do you see otherwise?

How are you doing?  Are you ready to steer this ship into the harbor...beginning Wednesday?  Or do you need more time?

[PatH]

It's interesting to look at the attitudes of the men toward the women they are paired with.  They are often abusive, and if not, they are usually dismissive or scornful of the women, feeling their inferiority and limited unterstanding, their purpose to be subservient to their men.

Look at Professor Hutten and his wife.  In the early days of their marriage, she would sometimes disagree with him, but he argued it out of her, and now seems to have forgotten she ever had a mind of her own.  At dinner, when she actually dares to disagree with one of his boring discourses, it precipitates a serious crisis in their marriage.  He doesn't like her to associate with other women, such associations being unnatural, their comparing notes on their husbands leading to divisions between husband and wife.  Her understanding is such that her place is to be subservient to the men in her life.  Classic symptoms of the morbid control freak.

In spite of this, she is the one who deals with the sordid practical side of the world, shielding her husband from it.  And she enjoys the physical side of her marriage (as do most of the women) though, from shyness or prudishness she never talks about it at all with her husband.

[JoanP]

The Hansens were a confusing couple, weren't they Pat?  He was dismissive, and mentally abusive, as most, if not all of the men in this story seem to be - but also weak.  And the married women seem so angry. .  I was cheering when Frau Hansen spoke up - but almost immediately she regretted it - took back everything she said.  Was she afraid?  She had no life, other than as Herr Hansen's wife.  

At first I thought Porter's criticism was aimed at Germans, and that she was making a point about German  - German men, but then realized that the abusiveness is found in others too.  If the often divorced Mary Treadwell is the character expressing Porter's point of view, {I said IF.  Remember that Mary Treadwell was severely put down - and beaten by her first husband too.  
So is Porter commenting on men in general in this novel?  Are the men of this time - "control freaks" as you put it, regardless of nationality?

[PatH]

You're right, JoanP, it's not just Germans.  Although both David and Jenny can dish it out as well as take it, David is totally inflexible.  He inflicts his moods on her without even trying to get along.  In disagreements about taste or behavior, he is always right and she mostly gives in to him.  He automatically reads all her letters ,and allows her no privacy, but if she were to look at his letters or papers he would be outraged.

Then there's Amparo and Pepe, prostitute and pimp, the ultimate abusive relationship.  All the same, the only intimacy she actually enjoys is with him, usually after he has beaten her.  Still, she's squirreling away part of her earnings to set up on her own as a dancer.

Of course attitudes were quite different then--not so much about abuse, but about women's subservience, and the German ideal for women, Kinder, Kuche, Kirche, (children, cooking, and church) was alive and well.

[JudeS]

The men in this book, except for Dr. Schumann, are as has been pointed out, are really unbearable.
Is this the result of Porters four unhappy marriages and numerous affairs?
Her Father too was angry  abusive and alcoholic.
There were decent men even in that period of history, although reading this book you might doubt it.
Some women are attracted to the mean, abusive kind. Perhaps Porter was one of those women.
Yes, the German men had an even greater tendency to fit these negative stereotypes.
I finished the book and was left with a bitter taste in my mouth.

[JoanP]

Let's talk about  the after-taste tomorrow, Jude.  I'm watching the movie tonight so it can go back to Netflix - it's been sitting here for  weeks, waiting for me to finish the book.  We've got another week - hope those swimming in our wake can make it in time...

[JoanP]

I fell asleep during the film last pm - am watching the end of it, just now.  Jenny, portrayed by the lovely Elizabeth Ashley - asks David what it is he wants from her.  His response...he doesn't know. But he wants a woman who lives just for him.

The impression I got from the book - the men want love, to be loved, but don't seem capable of giving the women the love they seem to need.  Yet the women are willing to take so much abuse from the men....  Why?  Porter seems to portray the women as helpless, needing love, at any cost.

But the book is about more than the love stories of the passengers which the film seems to be dwelling on.   Maybe that's why the author was unhappy with the film version of her book?  Herr Lowenthal remarks that this ship is not  a cross-section of German men.  Does Porter make that point clear in the book?

I'm looking forward to our discussion of the way Porter has concluded her novel.  Jude, you write of a bitter after taste at the conclusion.  Was it because Porter portrays all men as a stereotypically abusive?  
 
Frau Schmitt remarked - "the world is an evil place, we are all helpless."  If this is Porter's conclusion, I can understand why this would be a bitter ending...

[retired]

Film version of book:
I saw the film years ago and only remembered Oscar Werner who played
the role of Dr. Schumann.
I saw the film again about a month ago after reading the novel.
What a disappointment the film is in following the novel and the author's descriptions of characters
and events . 
Herr Glocken the dwarf introduces and completes the ending of the film
by verbalizing some ridiculous comments .
Herr Lowenthal is depicted as a friendly smiling extroverted passenger. Not accurate
according to the novel's description .
Hollywood made changes which are not accurate when compared to the novel.

I certainly understood why the author was unhappy at the film's lack of authenticity in
regard to her novel.
I was certainly disappointed for the same reason when comparing the
adaptation of the film after reading the novel.
 

[JudeS]

Another sad or hopeless point of the book is that the children are portrayed as hopelees i.e. Ric and Rac and Hans Baumgartner. Are these characters the future of the world in Porters eyes?
Even the dog Bebe is not a "fun" or joyous animal but one frought with problems.

The Cuban medical Students are supposed to be the "cheerful" or fun group as they sing about Marijuana.
Perhaps Porter enjoyed a "toke" to forget it all.
I wouldn't be surprised.
Glad I didn't sign up for the journey of the Vera.

[JoanP]

retired - do you remember what became of Dr. Schumann in the film?  If I didn't miss anything, he suffered a dramatic heart attack on the ship's deck...and then his wife and sons met his coffin in Bremmerhaven.  I really don't remember his dying in the novel...did I miss something?

You put your finger on what I felt was missing in the film - I never felt the seriousness of the racial slurs - the film treated those topics so lightly, almost to the point of comedy.


I'm going to post this again now -before I forget.  Now that I've finished the book, I've a different idea as to which character KA Porter placed herself.  What do you think?

"In August 1931, Katherine Anne Porter and her companion and eventual husband, Eugene Pressly, departed from Mexico on the German ship S. S. Werra. The journal she kept during this journey became the basis for Ship of Fools, the novel she published thirty-one years later. After four months in Berlin, Porter visited Paris and Madrid before moving with Pressly, who had received a lifetime appointment in the American foreign service, to Basel, Switzerland, for six months, where she lived from June to December 1932. When Pressly was posted to the American Embassy in Paris, they settled there for nearly four years, marrying in March 1933"

[JoanP]

Back to the book...

Jude, do you believe that Porter intended to show that these children are not being raised well - to face the future.  When you think about it, they are the ones who will be fighting in the war, totally unprepared and lacking in self-discipline.  Do you think she was consciously telling us something about their future?

I'm glad you brought up Bebe, poor unhappy dog. Let's talk about all the animals Porter used to describe these characters.  Did this remind you of another story of a ship-load of animals?  Did the author have this boat in mind as she wrote?

[JudeS]

JoanP
Was your hint about the Porter Person, or the person she identified with, Jenny?
From the hint you gave it seemed Porter and her beau might have been Jenny and David.

As far as a load of animals on a ship I'm not sure which book you are referring to. I remember a book by Gerald Durrel called "My Family and Other Animals" that had animals on board their ship. The Life of PI also has an animal and Dr. Dolittle, the love of my childhood, had oodles of animals on his adventures to Africa.


What book am I forgetting?

[PatH]

How about the Bible and Noah's ark?

[Jonathan]

Let's begin with Bebe. The Huttens dote on their dog, and he enjoys their genuine love. The Professor holds him up as a fine example of good character, the result of good breeding and training. What he finds lacking in Ric and Rac.

I watched the movie last night and found it strangely moving. As one character says, what fools we are to think we can find lasting love. Even the doctor feels he has found it with La Condesa, just to hear it dismissed by the captain as another shipboard romance who then gets a faceful of brandy for his wisdom. As for La Condesa she leaves the ship without a backward glance. (Was that a slit-second glance as she is getting into the car?)

It's not true to the book. How could it be? Herr Lowenthal is not exactly the confident, extroverted man in the movie. He goes through his inner turmoil. And so did Herr Graf, in the book. What a fool, thinking he could buy his place at the captain's table.

As for Mrs. Treadwell. That manhater. She finally gets a chance to show her pent-up anger in beating Denny half to death. Those spikes are lethal weapons. Women shouldn't be allowed to wear them.

The missing love between Jenny and David? Too close to home to comment on.

A great twentieth-century journey. Thanks for the memory.

[PatH]

Well, I've landed, and I'm really glad to get off that boat.  I'm probably as fed up with the characters as they are with each other.  They are mostly so resentful of everyone and everything, so sensitive to perceived slights (of course many of them also have to put up with very vicious slights) yet so eager to make cutting remarks to everyone else.

[PatH]

But I'm not sorry I read the book, and there certainly is plenty to comment on.

Ric and Rac: barring a miracle, they do seem to be beyond redemption.  They'll be lucky if they just end up like their parents, and not in jail.  But Ric will be able to escape fighting in WWII.  Since Spain was neutral, he just has tp get through the Spanish Civil War.

Hans, on the other hand seems better off.  His alcoholic father is a huge problem, but at least he is loved, and being raised with principles.  He may turn out to be no worse than the other characters.

[retired]

Joan : Re: Dr.  Schumann : You are correct .
In the novel , while he experiences episodes of Angina because of his
heart disease, he does not die .
In the film he does and his wife and son do meet his coffin
at Bremerhaven.

In addition , in the novel he provides La Contessa with a prescription for
her addictive drugs when she arrives at her destination . She is despondent about living as a
prisoner in exile at her new destination. This is possibly the best he can do for her under
the circumstances.  He infers I believe that he will keep in contact periodically but does not
accompany her off the ship to her destination.

I am responding purely based on memory as I had to return the book to the library
one month ago after completion of the novel. 

[JoanP]

retired - it seems to me if Hollywood took the liberty with Porter's story -  to kill off Dr. Schumann before the ship reached Bremmerhaven, then there must have been other "improvements that irked the author.  I didn't understand why they had to do that.  What did it add to the story?

Porter, however, did not explain why the Condesa did not respond to the doctor's note he sent her, asking her to respond before the ship left Tenerife at 4pm.    I had hoped that the author would have cleared up that mystery before the book ended.  Did I miss something? I thought that was important - What did her silence mean?

[JoanP]

"Hans may turn out to be no worse than the other characters."  PatH

Pat, after reading the incident - when Herr and Frau Baumgarten "made up" - I wondered what impression that incident would have on Hans  in the future.  If daddy hurts mommy and mommy says it's alright - and seems happy... I wondered if he wouldn't turn out to have just the same attitudes towards women that we saw in the other men on the boat...and the women putting up with their control and abuse.

"Mary Treadwell. That manhater. She finally gets a chance to show her pent-up anger in beating Denny half to death." Jonathan

It's that  same "pent-up anger" we've seen in many of the women in this book, isn't it?   "As one character says,

"what fools we are to think we can find lasting love. "

 Golly, Jonathan, do you really think this was Porter's feeling as she wrote this book?

Did anyone come from this novel with hope for the future?

[JoanP]

At some point I started to note the many animals Porter was using to describe the characters, beginning with Herr Rieber - often referred to as a pig.  I'll go find the animals in the morning...the comparisons were so apt.  Then, I started imagining the ship populated with all of these animals - and couples, pairs.  Which led me to imagining Captain Thiele as Noah, determined to get this ship, this ark of wrangling animals into port.

[retired]

Reference to Herr Reiber as a Pig :
In my estimation a very appropriate reference for this character.
His constant inappropriate behavior with Fraulein Lizzi was a good example.
Hiding with her in dark corners of the ship and under tarpins covering a life
in order to pet and fondle her with the objective to have sex with her was
amusing for the reader .
She was no better in shipboard behavior than him .
Her attitude and behavior to other minorities on board just as despicable.

I laughed when she finds out that Herr Reiber is married , has three children and
his family dislike him .  He is separated from wife and family . They apparently
do not want him back.
She avoids his sexual overtures after that .

She had hoped for a proposal of marriage .
He for a sexual conquest.
Birds of a feather attracted to each other . Neither achieving a goal .
She for commitment .  He for an affair.
 

[PatH]

They kind of deserved each other, didn't they.

[JoanP]

OH yes, Rieber and Lizzi did deserve on another, PatH - it was impossible to sympathize with either one of them.  But what of David and Jenny?  Those two frightened me - they knew they were ill-suited to one another, and yet they seem unable to break from one another. Are they are headed for an unhappy marriage.

retired, I went back to my "animal" notes...and noted, that Lowenthal, as a pariah in a swinish Gentile society
avoids pork, "detests Rieber, that pig."

More...

Rieber, dancing "like a faun with little polished hoofs."
Lizzie, runs off, "an anguished peahen."  Lizzi - "eyes like a beaten dog"
Everyone going to party, like sheep.
Mrs. T's German officer - a "goatish gleam in his eye"
Baumgarten's jeering wife, "a female viper."
Mrs. T, "smirking like a cat."
David had seen Pastora running from Denny, "like a frightened rabbit."

[JoanP]

"...the Captain and Dr. Schumann's weariness with the passengers rejecting all human kinship with them and their dirty lives, deserving death?."

Alright, the Captain and Dr. Schumann are appalled at the behavior of the passengers, reject human kinship with them.  Do they have any obligation to speak up - or is Porter indicating that their silence implies sympathy with their dirty lives.

The Captain tells Dr. Schumann - "the  passengers don't know how to behave on ship - or on land either."   Would you say that Dr. Schumann and the Captain knew how to behave?  There is reason to believe that "ship behavior" is different from land behavior.  'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas' kind of behavior.  But the Captain is saying here that people don't know how to behave - anywhere.  I

Is Porter making a comment on the moral disintegration of society in general in the years leading up to WWII?

[JudeS]

In my opinion Porter sees the  world through a "jaundiced eye."
She peopled her boat with these horrible people to prove a point.
Yes, the German moral world was, for the most part, disintegrating and being filled with" anti-everything but us" ideas.
Yet there was a place for others to sail instead of this load of (mostly) vipers if the author had so chosen.

Perhaps she was trying to open the world's eyes to the horror of Nazism.  But 1961 was a little late to do that.

I still wonder if the venom was really inside of her or if she was just reporting what she had seen?
Guess we will never know.

[retired]

Thank you:
Thank you Pat and Joan , Host and Discussion leader for the opportunity to sail along
on this very provocative story : Ship Of Fools .
Your attentive responses to our comments and thought provoking questions as the story progressed were appreciated .

I hope to join another book discussion in the future and would look forward to seeing both of you at the " helm".

[JoanP]

Jude, did you sense that Porter was weary at the end - that she had lost the passion she had for the subject back in the 40's when she began the book?  Sometimes I felt she worked it too hard.   There was plenty to consider,  but  it was a long difficult journey over rough seas at times.  I can't say that I was sorry as the ship pulled into the harbor.  

Thank you for staying with it. It was interesting and helpful to hear  different viewpoints.
Here's hoping that you will join us in the next project - our discussion of Charles Dickens' Bleak House will begin on February 15.  Marcie and I will be there at the helm, retired  - along with PatH, JoanK and Babi.  

We're celebrating Dickens' 200th birthday right now - you are invited to join us Here

[PatH]

Retired, I much appreciated your pithy summaries of the characters, and bits of the book.  They added to my understanding.  I too hope to see you in more discussions.

[PatH]

I can't find it now, but JoanP pointed out that in some ways Jenny was more like Porter herself than Mrs. Treadwell.  I decided that maybe Jenny was the young Porter in 1931, when she actually made the voyage, and Mrs. Treadwell was Porter as she became by the time she was finishing the book.  While I was looking for something else today, I found a hint, top of p. 416.  David is walking with Mrs Treadwell, noticing her behavior.  "She behaved in fact like Jenny, except...".  He goes on to compare and contrast the two for a moment, before shifting into his irritation mode.

[nlhome]

I think you too for this discussion. I had to quit reading - I found I resented the time spent on that book when there were others out there with more interesting characters and plots. I think it was me, not the book or the discussion, which I continued to follow along with because I sampled later parts of the book.

[PatH]

I was curious to see what people said about the book when it came out, so I looked it up in the New York Times archives.  The review was very favorable, not very long, and rather general.  There was also an interview with Porter.  The first and last scenes were written first, and are almost unchanged.  She knew all along what the people in the book were going to do, but "...there were times when I didn't know why they were doing it, and so I would have to wait until I found out."  She said "...it is the same book it started out to be."  She had the scenes in mind early on, and kept rearranging them as she worked out the structure of the book.

La Condesa was a real person on Porter's voyage.  The interviewer sees her as a center of courage and individuality, which isn't how I see her.  I see her as having lost her courage, though she is fighting a sort of last-ditch retreat.

[JudeS]

PatH
How interesting!Glad you researched a really good resource.
La Condessa was totally dependent on drugs to continue living. I wonder if Porter used drugs?
Four marriages and four divorces. How did she deal with that?
I certainly would understand if she used drugs to deal with the misery and heartbreak.
The good Doctor certainly saw something moving and appealing in the Condessa. Perhaps that she was clear as to who she was and what she needed to continue living.
She also stood for a good cause as opposed to all the Nazis on the ship.
Thanks for giving me the ability to see this character in a different light.

[JoanP]

nlhome - I can appreciate what you are saying.  It wasn't just you.  Many of us felt swamped at times, at sea.  Thanks you for staying with us.

PatH - I can see Porter as the young Jenny - and then as Mary Treadwell in later years.  And I found that interview with the author extremely interesting.   If she wrote the last scene first, and then let the characters do what  they wanted during the voyage, that kills the idea that she didn't  know how to end the book.

Jude, I can see why you'd ask if Porter might have used drugs herself - not only did she portray the Condesa's drug problem, but also many of her short story heroines were also addicted to drugs or alcohol.  Funny, that here men were alcohol abusers, rather than drugs.  She treats these women with such care, concern and sympathy.  Would she also be an abuser, knowing how these women suffered?

[PatH]

In the front of the book Porter says "The title of this book is a translation from the German of Das Narrenschiff, a moral allegory by Sebastian Brant (1458?-1521)....  When I began thinking about my novel, I took for my own this simple almost universal image of the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.  It is by no means new--it was very old and durable and dearly familiar when Brant used it, and it suits my purpose exactly.  I am a passenger on that ship."

This reminded me of something, though it took a while to track down the quote.  It's from the Venerable Bede, describing what was said to King Edwin to convince him (and through him the whole of Northumbria) to convert to Christianity:

"The present life of man, O King, seems to me, in comparison of that time which is unknown to us, like to the swift flight of a sparrow through the room wherein you sit at supper in winter, with your commanders and retainers, and a good fire in the midst, whilst the storms of rain and snow prevail abroad; the sparrow, I say, flying in at one door, and immediately out at another, whilst he is within, is safe from the wintry storm; but after a short space of fair weather, he immediately vanishes out of your sight, into the dark winter from which he had emerged.  So this life of man appears for a short space, but of what went before, or what is to follow, we are utterly ignorant.  If, therefore, this new doctrine contains something more certain, it seems justly to deserve to be followed."

It's an unforgettable image, and the whole book seems like that to me.  We are watching the sparrow briefly flashing through our hall, a segment in the middle, and we don't know the beginning or end.

[JoanP]

..."the sparrow, I say, flying in at one door, and immediately out at another, whilst he is within, is safe from the wintry storm; but after a short space of fair weather, he immediately vanishes out of your sight, into the dark winter from which he had emerged." Venerable Bede

PatH - do you think Porter sees "that brief segment in the middle", "the short space of fair weather" -  - the short life we each spend on earth, our "hall"?  "We don't know the beginning or  end."

I'm remembering the quote you brought us the other day - in which Porter stated that she knew the beginning and the end of her story before she wrote the book...just didn't know what was going to go on in that hall, until she wrote it.  This is what I found depressing about the lives on board that ship.  Porter seemed to be saying that the passengers did not know how to live that brief segment in the middle.  

One passenger after another expresses this negative approach to life.  How many wanted to die, one way or another?  How many feel it is too late to do anything about the injustice they see around them - so they do nothing? Glocken, who regrets not standing up for himself when under attack, the passengers who witnessed the Spanish dancers cheat and steal, but do nothing.  Glocken begs David not to sleep - "Life is too dangerous on this ship.  Nobody is safe.

Mary Treadwell, thinks everything absurd, is tired of moral bookkeeping.  Not concerned at all about OTHERS.  "Hateful indifference,"  David calls it.   Frau Schmitt sees an "evil world" - in which she is helpless."  

Jenny and David  imagine spending an entire lifetime with their detested games.  Jenny, a prisoner in herself  Hansen - people don't listen, except to nonsense.  The Captain sees the moral turpitude...but prefers to stay to himself, wondering why he let such disorder thrive. daydreaming of mowing them all down with guns - an idea from American movies.  The young bride who wishes to die young, while she is still beautiful.

The list goes on.  At one point Dr. Schumann tells the captain there are still very decent people on board the ship.  The Captain replies, "show me one."  The doctor is silent.

So my question...is Porter painting a hopeless picture of man's inability to value the life that he does have, to make the most of that brief time in the hall?  Or is she issuing a warning not to live life as these foolish passengers?   I'm hoping that we come away from reading the book with an understanding of the foolish way the passengers on the ship were wasting their lives - and we are inspired to learn from them - to become more conscious of our own shortcomings - before we leave the hall.

[JudeS]

Thanks Joan for a fine summing up.

It was a memorabl journey albeit  a difficult one.

[PatH]

Yes, that was a hard book to read and discuss, also to lead.  But we did it, and now we're in the harbor.  Thanks to everyone for making the discussion so memorable, and to our fearless leaders JoanP and marcie for tackling it.  JoanP, your careful analyses were crucial for us, and I know how much work they must have taken.  Thanks.

[JoanP]

 Thanks everyone - every single post brought us closer to land -   I doubt Ms. Porter has ever had a more attentive audience as we tried to understand her message.  Don't you wish we could have had the author's input?  Nah, it was more fun this way!

Till next time...