Author Topic: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ January Book Club Online (Read 56790 times)

marcie · « **Reply #120 on:** January 12, 2012, 10:25:30 PM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.

Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter

"The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.

Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962." - Goodreads

Discussion Schedule:

January 2-7 Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
January 8-15 Part II High Sea (first third: p. 71-170 - hardback) -ending before: "The Cuban Medical students, a hermetic society."
January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback) - ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David" -
January 24-31 Part II High Sea cont. (p. 274 - 360 - hardback)
February 1-end Part III The Harbors (p. 361-497 - hardback)

*****

Some Topics for Consideration
January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback)
- ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David"

1. What is an hermetic society? Were those Cuban medical students revolutionaries? Do you think all students are rebelling at this time?
If la Condesa was not a "fool," why did she allow herself to be made a figure of ridicule by these young men?

2. Does Captain Thiele frighten you? Does his beleif that exacting obedience and conformity from all the passengers on board or the structure of society will fail, remind you of someone else's way of thinking?

3. Do you trust Dr. Schumann's objectivity concerning the nature of the passengers aboard the Vera? What is it that attracts him to the Condesa?

4. The Condesa asks, "Do you expect a great change in me because of this strange voyage? A miracle of some kind?" Isn't that we are all hoping for all the passengers in aboard this ship? Change?

5. Is the self-loathing expressed by these characters getting you down? The Captain seems as disgusted with the passengers as we are? Are any of them content with who they are? Do you see any friendships beginning to form?

6. What more do we learn about Mary Treadwell in this section? Why is she drinking so much? What happened to her that"cut her life in two." Do you see the author in this character?

7 How did the revelation of Herr Freytag's Jewish wife affect all of the first class passengers? What was Dr. Schumann's response to Freytag's dismissal from the captain's table? How did the Americans react to this example of anti-semitism?

8. "What right do you have to live in this world and care nothing for the human beings around you? You have no heart." Who said this? To whom? Can any this be said of any of the characters?

Discussion Leaders: Joan P and Marcie

marcie · « **Reply #121 on:** January 12, 2012, 10:25:40 PM »

Retired, it does seem almost "prejudiced" of the author to identify the only Jew in the story as a salesman of Catholic religious items as his business. Perhaps it is an aspect of the kind of humor in the book. There was a scene in the book where Herr Lowenthal is looking for any friendly face he could find on the ship and he wasn't able to find one so I too think that he is not liked, or at least that no one is willing to risk being "friendly" with him.

marcie · « **Reply #122 on:** January 12, 2012, 10:45:40 PM »

Quote from: JoanP on January 12, 2012, 12:22:34 PM

I would give anything to read the actual notes she took on that 1931 voyage. Have you read anything about them? Do they still exist? I remember reading somewhere that portions of Ship of Fools were published as short stories in the years before the book was finished in the early 60's. These short stories left her readers hungry for more - wanting to know more about these characters.

Joan I saw somewhere that Porter used her notes in a 20-page letter to Caroline Gordon, wife of the poet Allen Tate.

Maybe this correspondence is at the University of Maryland which holds the primary archive for Katherine Anne Porter.

JoanP · « **Reply #123 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:23:33 PM »

Marcie - I've spent a considerable amount of time in the University of MD Porter Archives - too long, I think. Not much time left to post.

Everything seems to be there...except I find no reference to that journal. Every reference that I came across indicates that Ms. Porter sent journal-like snippets in the form of letters to friends. And there are countless such letters in the Archives in Maryland. Do you suppose she didn't really keep a journal, but rather notes, letters, describing the ship and its passengers? Or maybe she kept a journal and tore out pages? Then again, there may well be a journal somewhere...
She saved everything - if you had written her a fan letter at the time, it would be in the Archives!
As I surfed through many references, I came across this little snippet that I found interesting...

Quote

"In August 1931, Katherine Anne Porter and her companion and eventual husband, Eugene Pressly, departed from Mexico on the German ship S. S. Werra. The journal she kept during this journey became the basis for Ship of Fools, the novel she published thirty-one years later. After four months in Berlin, Porter visited Paris and Madrid before moving with Pressly, who had received a lifetime appointment in the American foreign service, to Basel, Switzerland, for six months, where she lived from June to December 1932. When Pressly was posted to the American Embassy in Paris, they settled there for nearly four years, marrying in March 1933"

Back to the book...

JoanP · « **Reply #124 on:** January 13, 2012, 02:55:36 PM »

retired, I think Jonathan is saying that nobody really likes Herr Lowenthal - but they say nice things about him. I haven't read that far yet...I just see him by off by himself for the most part. Do you suppose that Porter is saying that as long as the merchandise sells, the salesman will sell it. I'm seeing the stereotypical Jewish merchant here. Lowenthal's hottest selling items are rosary beads - used to count the Hail Marys in a Catholic veneration of Mary. It is rather ironic, isn't it?

We are seeing a number of references to Catholicism here. Are most of the Germans on board the ship Catholics? There are some Lutherans. I'm guessing that the steerage Spaniards are also Catholic.
Porter was a sometime Catholic herself, and a sometime rebel against that faith. I came across these references while searching for that journal -

Quote

"In 1906, at age sixteen, Porter left home and married John Henry Koontz, the son of a wealthy Texas ranching family, and subsequently converted to Koontz's religion, Roman Catholicism. Koontz was physically abusive; once while drunk, he threw her down the stairs, breaking her ankle. They divorced officially in 1915
But in the 1920s she also became intensely critical of religion and remained so until the last decade of her life when she again embraced the Roman Catholic Church."

Did you read the exchange between poor, poor little Frau Schmitt and the Baumgartners? That woman cannot open her mouth without stepping into the need for explanations and apologies - which are never accepted.

This time she questions Herr B's comment about Frau Graf's healing ability, saying there were saints in the old days who could heal the body as well as the soul.

Frau Schmitt - "He's a Lutheran, how could he be a saint?"
Frau B: "We are Lutherans. We have our saints also."

After many apologies, Frau Schmitt adds, "it was my ignorance - I did not know you had saints. Nobody told me. I thought only the Catholic church had saints, forgive me. Who are they?"
Frau B: "Who are what?"
Frau Schmitt, eager to learn - "Your saints?"
Frau B. "Oh good heavens what a question..." - snubbed her, left her sitting there feeling deeply, unjustly injured.

When I read that, I thought it was wonderfully amusing. The more I think about it, the more questions I have about what Porter was saying here. But I must leave - we are going into town to see a movie...a difficult choice among top three - Iron Lady, the Descendants and Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. Guess which one we chose? After that, dinner in a little French restaurant.

marcie · « **Reply #125 on:** January 14, 2012, 02:12:49 AM »

Joan, I too looked a bit in the archives and didn't find the journal or the 20 page letter to Caroline Gordon.

Jonathan, the more I read, the more I see the humor in the small scenes Porter creates, such as the one between Frau S. and Frau B. that JoanP relates above. If we look for the humorous anecdotes, we might more easily get through the book that some are finding depressing.

nlhome · « **Reply #126 on:** January 14, 2012, 09:40:04 AM »

I took a vacation from reading the book, but I hope to get back to it this weekend. It is depressing. She has a knack of pointing out people's weaknesses and flaws, not so much the good things.

Jonathan · « **Reply #127 on:** January 14, 2012, 12:15:25 PM »

Yes, the book can get depressing. This little cross section of humanity has just too many problems, individually and as a group, to make for a happy atmosphere. If Herr Lowenthal is without friends, he's hardly alone. Friendship is a scarce commodity on the ship. On the other hand, there is the search for love, and many are finding it.

The door bell! I gotta go. Back later.

JimNT · « **Reply #128 on:** January 14, 2012, 06:14:14 PM »

I have struggled to Page 330; about 10 pages a day. I'm determined to finish the book, mainly because I'm one of many who recommended it for discussion. I say this boldly because none of you can find me to do physical harm. I believe Ms. Porter is wonderful at character development but I'm simply too dense to ascertain the plot. Where is it going? Is Bebe's overboard experience the best Ms. Porter can do? Maybe Johan will actually kill his uncle? And the Jews are but one target of the German's many hate objects: Americans, Swiss, Spanish, and even lower classed Germans to name a few. And then there is Herr Lutz, I think, who is absolutely overwhelmed by his wife's unmitigated gall to voice her opinion. Indeed, it is a ship of fools.

marcie · « **Reply #129 on:** January 14, 2012, 06:42:02 PM »

Nlhome and Jim, I'm glad that you've decided to stick with it. I don't see this book as an action story as much as a series of vignettes about the people on the ship of fools. Maybe there is no plot except the small interactions among the people and the revelation of their thoughts and feelings. Nothing seems to be happening in terms of an overall plot but, for me, the author is keeping my interest by describing the conflicts between the characters. As you say, Jim, we're wondering whether Johan will actually kill is uncle or what horrible thing the twins might do next. There may not be any major act (plot) but the author presents the little fears and hurts as if describing actual people living their ordinary lives -- not necessarily the aspects of people we would choose to hone in on.

Jonathan, I think that your observation is spot on: "This little cross section of humanity has just too many problems, individually and as a group, to make for a happy atmosphere." I don't watch the crop of reality shows that are on TV, but I've seen snippets and it may be that the characters on the "Ship of Fools" have brought out the worst in one another, as people seem to do in the "reality" situations on TV.

JoanP · « **Reply #130 on:** January 14, 2012, 06:55:25 PM »

Hello there, JimT! Aren't you brave...struggling through to p.330 - all by yourself without turning to your fellow passengers for commiseration! We've extended the discussion period - to leave more time for reading and discussion. Please slow down and spend some time with us - and share your thoughts. If you take a look at the heading at the top of the page, you'll see that we plan to focus on these pages, beginning Monday -

January 16-23 Part II High Sea cont. (p.171 - 274- hardback) - ending before "The greasers are up to something. Denny to David" -

You bring us the most interesting question - one the rest of us have been struggling with. "I'm simply too dense to ascertain the plot. Where is it going?"

Whose is telling this story? Do all of the passengers on this ship hate one another - or is there one person who feels this way about the rest of the passengers? Do the passengers represent the peoples of the world - in the period preceding WWII?

Jim asks where we think the story is going. One suggestion might be that the world is heading to war.
Do you see that as Porter's intent?

Hey, Jonathan - was that the pizza guy at the door? We'd like you to expand on your comment about friendship being a scarce commodity on this ship. Are you surprised? Really? This is a disparate group - and not exactly a pleasure cruise - especially with the 876 miserable souls in steerage - a reminder to all on board that this is not a happy situation. Considering these differences, I wasn't surprised that meaningful relationships were not formed.

JoanP · « **Reply #131 on:** January 14, 2012, 07:11:32 PM »

Marcie, we were posting at the same time. That's an interesting idea - "it may be that the characters on the "Ship of Fools" have brought out the worst in one another." Do you think they are really not as bad as they seem - when not confined to the close quarters of this ship?

If that is so, I think we can expect more of the same. I see some movement - subtle changes. Jenny and David, for example. They seem to be drifting apart, changing perceptions of one another, changing plans for their future, even? Jenny said something about "the ship simmering with Love. Real Love." I'm not sure I see what Jenny is seeing, are you? Even Freytag, so in love with his Mary Champagne, seems to be having second thoughts about her.

Nlhome - so glad you are back. Read slowly - maybe we're missing something. Where is the love?

JudeS · « **Reply #132 on:** January 14, 2012, 07:18:57 PM »

I finished this week's assignment (up to page 177) and am taking a break from this bleak and hopeless roster of passengers..

Actually I went to a few sites about the book. and gleaned a few facts (anything to deter me from the actual plot.)

If any of you follow "Mad Men" on TV. It seems that Betty Draper (she of the beautiful face and figure and tortured soul) was prominently reading "Ship of Fools" during Season two. (Very Symbolish!)

The Movie made of the book was up for thirteen Oscars but gleaned only two. Some of the actors were:
Vivian Leigh-Mary Treadwell
Jose Ferrer- Reiber
Oskar Werner-Dr. Schuman (He was the Colonel in Hogan's Heroes)
Michael Dunn-Carl Glocken.
The last two names were nominated for Oscars but didn't win.

I will return to the book on Monday.

marcie · « **Reply #133 on:** January 15, 2012, 12:57:33 AM »

Jude, I watched the film, SHIP OF FOOLS and found Dr. Schuman pretty sympathetic. (Oskar Werner didn't play Colonel Klink in Hogan's Heroes; that was Werner Klemperer.)

You motivated me to look up something about Oskar Werner. It relates to the War and Nazism. From wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Werner

"In December 1941, Werner was drafted into the Wehrmacht. As a pacifist and staunch opponent of Nazism, he was determined to avoid advancement in the military.

"So many officers had been killed on the Russian front that they needed replacements desperately. And, I was for them the embodiment of the Aryan type. But I am a pacifist. I didn't want any responsibility, so I behaved stupidly. I fell from my horse and made mistakes reading the range finders on the cannon, and finally they kicked me out of training school." [2]

He was assigned to peeling potatoes and cleaning latrines instead of being sent to the Eastern Front. In 1944, he secretly married actress Elisabeth Kallina, who was half-Jewish. They immediately had a daughter, Eleanore. That December, he deserted the Wehrmacht and fled with his wife and daughter to the Wienerwald, where they remained in hiding until the end of the war.[1]

"The artillery fire was constant for two and a half days. The shells hit all around our little hut and it was shaking like a leaf. ...We knew that to go out there would be suicide, but it was better than to have to wait for execution." [3]"

marcie · « **Reply #134 on:** January 15, 2012, 01:01:17 AM »

JoanP, you ask "Do you think they are really not as bad as they seem - when not confined to the close quarters of this ship?" It does seem to me that individually, these people could be put in other settings and they would not behave as badly. That's not to say that they would be "saints" but they might not be under the kind of pressures they are on in the ship. The author may be saying that all of us have some of the "fool" in us and could be on that ship.

JimNT · « **Reply #135 on:** January 15, 2012, 08:50:11 AM »

JoanP: I must apologize to you and all the participates. This is my first venture into a book discussion and I have failed to read the very clear directions re the dates certain pages are to be discussed. Thank you for pointing that oversight out. I'll slow my rapid reading pace to conform to the schedule. Actually, it'll be a pleasure. I might read a Grisham novel in the interim.

Jonathan · « **Reply #136 on:** January 15, 2012, 02:41:39 PM »

The tortured soul seen reading The Ship of Fools. I like that, Jude. I'm sure she found much solace in the book. Certainly she must have found her own case vividly depicted in the novel. Aren't they all tortured souls in varying degrees? As most tortured I would pick Jenny. With Dr Schumann a close second, but that becomes evident later in the book. Several long-suffering wives would also want recognition. The only enviable people on the boat are the twins, Ric and Rac, at peace with themselves, if not the world. Ah, the children. Of such is the kingdom of heaven. Too soon we grow old and miserable. If Jenny has the ship 'simmering with love', she's just being cynical. She can't even find it in her adorable companion.

Good to hear from you, Jim. Taking a break with Grisham? Looks like a cop-out to me. Just kidding. Actually, I'm at page 374, and the torture is turning to pathos. We need your help to keep the ship afloat.

'The author may be saying that all of us have some of the "fool" in us and could be on that ship.' I believe you're right, Marcie. And if not that ship, a ship of our own. Not to despair, however. Wisdom flows through the book.

Which movie did you see, Joan? How come you didn't consider A Dangerous Method? Was it a surfeit of fools without that sorry business of Jung carrying on with his patient? Did he ever find himself adrift. What a fool.

JoanP · « **Reply #137 on:** January 15, 2012, 05:23:35 PM »

I don't see who played Lowenthal on that cast of characters, Jude. I thought that would be a juicy role. We've got the movie from Netflix here, but I can't bring myself to watch it - knowing that Porter didn't like the film. I need to give her a chance to tell her story, before letting the movie influence me. You'll return on Monday? Good! That's tomorrow, Jude! We'll be looking for you.

Marcie - I'm trying to picture these characters in a different setting - probably in situations where everyone is like-minded. I'd say fools with different shortcomings and prejudices are better off being on this ship, or in similar circumstances. The exposure to different points of view provides the possibility for change. I think that's healthy - maybe Porter's characters will learn something of tolerance before they leave the ship. I'm trying not to remember that a war is coming. I guess it's too much to believe in change.

"The author may be saying that all of us have some of the "fool" in us and could be on that ship. And if not that ship, a ship of our own." - Oh Jonathan, I agree. I hope my own inner fool learns a thing or two from reading this book!

JimT, you don't have to apologize. The only reason you were pointed to the discussion schedule in the heading - we want to hear from you, your thoughts - and can't do that if you are reading ahead without us. . Looks like we'll have to share your attention with Grisham, but please join in the conversation. As you can see, we need all the help we can get.

JoanP · « **Reply #138 on:** January 15, 2012, 05:29:11 PM »

Jonathan - Yes, to some degree, I agree, they are all tortured souls. There are some Germans who don't realize what is to come when they return to Germany after having been away for some time. They are happy with the status quo and can't imagine any other way of thinking about those different from themselves.

"Mexicans loathe the Americans, despise the Jews, hate the Spaniards, distrust the English, admire the French and love the Germans." Sounds like a world preparing to go to war. It occurs to me that there are no French or English aboard the ship. Why do you think that is?

ps. "A Different Method" sounded quite interesting. Mine wasn't the only vote - we decided to see Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy - one of Le Carre's best spy stories. Two thumbs up!

JoanP · « **Reply #139 on:** January 16, 2012, 08:25:36 AM »

Monday, Jan. 16 We're sailing on this morning - mid-voyage, it seems. Where's Jude? Things are beginning to happen, now that the passengers have sized up one another, they are beginning to react to them. At one point the ship is likened to a prison. The steerage passengers fit the description ...but the focus seems to be on the first class passengers.

Captain Thiele has his hands full - with the number of passengers in steerage, ready to erupt in fight or rebellion - and the problems associated with the first class passengers. What did you think of him? Is he the sort you'd want to have as captain of your ship?

nlhome · « **Reply #140 on:** January 16, 2012, 10:01:55 AM »

Well, I'm still not to page 171, although I tried. (I had a mystery book that I had ordered from interlibrary loan and wanted to finish that; besides, it was more appealing.)

What struck me was Wilhelm Freytag (a name not so uncommon in my area when I was growing up, by the way) and what he said: "While he shaved he riffled through his ties and selected one, thinking that people on voyage mostly went on behaving as if they were on dry land, and there is simply not room for it on a ship. Every smallest act shows up more clearly and looks worse, because it has lost its background. The train of events leading up to and explaining it is not there; you can't refer it back and set it in its proper size and place...."

Perhaps explaining why we see all the negative characteristics so clearly?

Will try to catch up this afternoon

JudeS · « **Reply #141 on:** January 16, 2012, 02:31:01 PM »

As promised I'm back.
In the pages I've read in our new assignment I have to point out two places.
Page 201: Dr Schuman.....Porter coins an interesting phrase, proving once again that she is an in-depth writer(If perhaps a bit long winded)
"Dr Schumann, who had always viewed himself as the soul of reserve, found himself possessed by a demon of frankness."
Now there's an interesting thought-being frank with others is demonic. Dangerous perhaps, but demonic? What think you?

On page 207 was a dash of Nazi cold water, which of course chills my soul no matter how many times I have read or heard it. Even though it is in the past, yet.........
"And do you know that miserable Jew they put by mistake with Herr Rieber? .......he asked "What time is it? My watch has stopped....Herr Rieber said,' Time to stop all Jew watches.' Herr Rieber is so very witty."

This is horrible and too, too real.

Jonathan · « **Reply #142 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:54:10 PM »

Too, too horrrible. Jewish fate hangs like a heavy cloud over the whole book.

retired · « **Reply #143 on:** January 16, 2012, 04:25:48 PM »

Mary Treadwell:
We learn that she is divorced and apparently had a abusive marriage.
Her thoughts reveal that she is fearful of the future. Aging and alone.
Running from her fears by escaping into frequent travel and the buffer of excessive drinking.

Captain Thiele:
I was not surprised at his philosophy of management and behavior.
The concept of running a " tight ship: .
Obedience and conformity to the rule of laws established in socialist , Communist , military societies.
Also any Dictator led society . While these societies can be oppressive and do not allow for
individualism they are similar examples of " running a tight ship."

Are we reminded of the coming of Fascism in Italy and Hitlers' Germany ?

Cuban Medical Students:
I had to look up the term a "Hermetic society".
The best example I could discern was they were a closed sealed isolated society ?
They had in common their medical studies and therefor friendships among their group .

La Contessa :
I did not believe that the Cuban Medical students were making a fool of her.
She enjoyed their company and their gaiety relieving her from Isolation as a prisoned
exiled in her private stateroom . We learn that she is a drug addict as well as a suffer of
insomnia . She also misses her own two adult sons . Perhaps the students also acted as young
adult substitutes.
We also learn that She depends on Dr. Schumann to give her sleeping medications for her insomnia
and though he is resistant at first to give her narcotic pain medications by injection .

I really felt sorry for this woman . As the story progresses we learn that she will remain
addicted in order to function minimally on a daily basis .

JoanP · « **Reply #144 on:** January 17, 2012, 08:53:46 AM »

nlhome - the name Freytag was familiar to me too - Clement Freitag was in my elementary school class - back in the late 40's, early 50's. You just reminded me of him - wish I knew his story. Please don't rush through the pages, we have plenty of time - until the middle of February if we need it. It is so helpful to be reminded of the passages that you are noticing now.

"thinking that people on voyage mostly went on behaving as if they were on dry land, and there is simply not room for it on a ship. Every smallest act shows up more clearly and looks worse, because it has lost its background."

We have been commenting on the negative aspects of each of these characters - Perhaps, as you have suggested, everyone just appears worse than they really are because the focus is on their negative characteristics?

JoanP · « **Reply #145 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:09:05 AM »

Thanks for checking out Porter's curious use of the term hermetic, retired. There seems to be several meanings but they all point to what you have concluded - "a closely sealed, isolated society." Maybe that's why I was somewhat surprised to see them acting so outrageously boisterous with la Condesa - gaining the notice of all aboard that ship.

You see the Condesa "enjoying their company, relieving her from the isolation as a prisoner
exiled in her private stateroom."
Interesting choice of words - this isn't the first time this ship has been likened to a prison. Quite apt, don't you think?

I'm looking forward to seeing how she is portrayed in the movie. Don't think I should watch it just yet. I'd rather wait to see what Porter does with her character, before I see what Hollywood did.
I can't say I'm feeling sorry for her at this point, encouraging these youngsters into her room. I admit I pity anyone who suffers from an addiction...but toying with these young men - as the mother of sons, as the Condesa was, I find that unacceptable and don't understand it. There has to be another reason.

JoanP · « **Reply #146 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:20:28 AM »

Quote

"Dr Schumann, who had always viewed himself as the soul of reserve, found himself possessed by a demon of frankness."

I'm glad you brought that quote to our attention, Jude. To be honest, I don't find him "possessed by a demon of frankness" - not even dangerous at this point. I was rather disappointed in him - in his refusal to express his feelings when Freytag was dismissed from the Captain's table. Maybe Porter is alluding here to something that will happen in the future when he actually expresses his views or acts in a "demonic" manner? Or maybe I missed something that would cause Porter to describe him in this way now. Do you remember the context? Right now, I find Dr. Schumann the most sympathetic character in the book. How about you?

JoanP · « **Reply #147 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:24:01 AM »

"Jewish fate hangs like a heavy cloud over the whole book." Oh, I agree, Jonathan. Reading these chapters, doesn't it seem that this is the reason Porter wrote the book? Every character seems affected by the anti-semitism to some degree. It is horrible to go back over it all again, isn't it?

I know this is painful topic, in the light of what was to come, but can you help me to understand the mind-set in Germany at the time of this cruise? The question that I have for those of you who have more knowledge than I do...was this idea of Aryan superiority to the point of eradicating the presence of Jews...in existence before Hitler gained power with these views? It was my understanding that German Jews were quite integrated into society, quite respected in this period between the two world wars. How could one man's views have had such an effect on society?

marcie · « **Reply #148 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:39:20 AM »

Joan, you ask, "was this idea of Aryan superiority to the point of eradicating the presence of Jews...in existence before Hitler gained power with these views?"

In looking for information about your question, I came across an article about the term "Jewish Question."

The article says, "The term "Jewish Question" was first used in Great Britain from around 1750. According to Holocaust scholar Lucy Dawidowicz, the term "Jewish Question", as introduced in western Europe, was a neutral expression for the negative attitude toward the apparent and persistent singularity of the Jews as a people against the background of the rising political nationalisms and new nation-states."

And From around 1860 the notion took on an increasingly antisemitic tendency: Jews were described under this title as a stumbling block to the identity and cohesion of the German nation and as enemies within the Germans' own country. Antisemites such as Wilhelm Marr, Karl Eugen Dühring, Theodor Fritsch, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Paul de Lagarde and others declared it a racial problem unsolvable through integration, in order to make their demands for the "de-jewifying" of the press, education, state and economy, culture plausible, along with their demands for the condemnation of inter-marriage between Jews and non-Jews. They also used this definition to oust the Jews out of their supposedly more socially dominating positions.

By far the most infamous use of this expression was by the Nazis in the early- and mid- twentieth century, culminating in the implementation of their "Final Solution to the Jewish question" during World War II."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_question

I also found the following:

"As for Aryan superiority and his Jewish hatred, Hitler clearly describes in Mein Kampf how he slowly began to change his mind about the Jews from the influence of the anti-Semitic movement of the Christian Social Party. His views with regard to anti-Semitism he said, "succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all." (read volume 1, chapter 2)."
http://nobeliefs.com/hitler-myths.htm#myth3

JudeS · « **Reply #149 on:** January 17, 2012, 12:46:38 PM »

Joan P
Dr Schumans words to the Condessa were those he (or the Author) felt were so different from his reserved self that they were coined as "a demon of frankness".
This too is the real beginning of the romance between them. A strange relationship,yes, but an honest one between two people who are bright, compassionate and have lived much.
Her need for succor is great. His need to help drives him. Yet this is a tiny island of truth and warmth on this ship of fools.

As far as the students visits to her room this is explained by the fact that they are stand ins for her two sons who the Codessa misses so much.They bring wine and chess boards and raucous conversation. All methods that help to make one forget the troubles that plague you.
On this ship being an addict is a minor failing compared to the evil that emanates from so many other passengers.

Jonathan · « **Reply #150 on:** January 17, 2012, 03:10:12 PM »

'a strange relationship, yes, but an honest one'...fine observation, Jude, regarding the tete-a-tete between the reserved doctor and the femme fatale. She has drawn a confidence out of him with 'I was never unfaithful to my wife.' He feels emotionally and morally unbalanced by it. La Condesa has a strange power over men. Just why is she being exiled?

JoanP · « **Reply #151 on:** January 18, 2012, 09:47:12 AM »

Thanks for the background information on "The Jewish Question, Marcie. The term first used in 1750 in England - and then the increasing anti-semitism in the mid 19th century when Jewish presence in Germany began to be considered "a racial problem unsolvable through integration. The tendency then was the "de-jewifying" of the press, education, state and economy, culture, condemnation of inter-marriage between Jews and non-Jews."
I understand better now - though will never understand how Hitler could ever have come up with "The Final Solution."

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"This is horrible and too, too real."

something Jude said

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"chills my soul no matter how many times I have read or heard it. Even though it is in the past, yet..."

This was the kind of talk KAPorter heard all around her aboard the German ship, the Vera - in 1932 and then lived through in the next decade. I am not surprised to find these comments in her writing. Perhaps these are exact quotes from these passengers, written in her journal. They must have made quite an impression on her. Are you keeping track of the sympathies of those of other nationalities regarding Herr Freyatag's situation?

JoanP · « **Reply #152 on:** January 18, 2012, 09:59:14 AM »

Thqnk you for putting "demon of frankness" into context, Jude. I can understand how this deeply religious and moral man would condemn his own increasingl inclinations concerning the Condesa as a lapse, a temptation put in his path by the demon, Satan. He recognizes this as a moral weakness, a failure and is doing his best to resist. His frank talk with the lady did not help things. He is revealing himself to her. I can relate to his struggle. He is human.

As Jonathan says, she has this strange power over men. I laughed at her power over the Captain, who really doesn't approve of her. If all the Cuban students are doing is playing chess with the Condesa, then I can accept the idea that they are stand-ins for her two sons. But don't you get the impression that their relationship is more of a sexual nature? Why all this stroking of her breasts - to lure them into her cabin? Doesn't Dr. Schumann overhear comments made by the students that mock her?

Does anyone recall why La Condesa is on her way to prison?

Jonathan · « **Reply #153 on:** January 18, 2012, 11:11:11 AM »

'Does anyone recall why La Condesa is on her way to prison?' Good question, Joan. It's left to the reader to wonder why La Condesa is being deported. Late in the book the Captain and the Doctor admit that neither knows the reason why. Both are in love with her. I suspect she was encouraging radical political activity in the revolutionary times. And then there is the gossip. In the grip of demoniacal frankness, Lizzi, the strumpet, informs her cabin mate, Mrs. Treadwell:

"Oh now, imagine - that Spanish Condesa, the prisoner, you know her? - well, they say she is sleeping with every one of those students by turns. They are always in her cabin, sometimes two or three of them, and they say it is quite fantastic what goes on there." p207

The world is a dangerous place for Jews. Can there be any doubt that Herr Lowenthal would have been thrown overboard if a serious storm had come along. Like Jonah of ancient times. I only marvel at the fortitude and restraint he shows in the face of such persecution and predjudice. Most importantly he is not admitting any guilt. A bit of soul-searching, but that is it. Concluding that it is the eternal pesecution that makes him a member of the Chosen people.

Having said that, I'm still left with the feeling that Porter put Herr Lowenthal on to the Ship of Fools for the same reason that Shakespeare put Shylock into The Merchant of Venice. To make the world aware of a serious injustice. He certainly stands out as a mensh in this strange brood. Isn't it an irony? He sells lucky charms but keeps none for himself.

Jonathan · « **Reply #154 on:** January 18, 2012, 09:56:36 PM »

I'm not too happy with my answer to Joan's question:

"Does anyone recall why La Condesa is on her way to prison?"

I was just recalling the last thing I had read about it, a conversation between the doctor and the captain, well along in the book. Looking back I found this on page 107. Again it is the Captain speaking:

I was told she is a dangerous revolutionist, an international spy, that she carries incendiary messages from one hotbead of sedition and rebellion to another, that she incites to riot - you would hardly believe all the nonsense. My own opinion is, she is one of those idle rich great ladies who like excitement, who get into mischief and make more mischief without in the least understanding what they do - this is always true of women in politics of any kind! - and she has got her fingers badly burned. Well, his voice softened, this will teach her a lesson.

I can't resist inserting a spoiler into the discussion. Near the end of the story, the Captain and Dr. Schumann are on the bridge, enjoying their mid-morning coffee. The Captain says to Dr. Schumann, This has been an unusually eventful voyage. It's a disaster, said Dr. Schumann, making no attempt to conceal his weariness or his indifference to the whole sordid affair.

Would that reflect the feelings of many readers?

hats · « **Reply #155 on:** January 19, 2012, 03:03:19 AM »

I have missed most of the discussion. I couldn't get pass the Survey Monkey. My husband isn't comfortable with giving out personal information. We have become lost in the world of new challenges on the internet. Really, it's my fault. I didn't start at the beginning of the book. Came in during the middle of the discussion. Became so enthusiastic with the discussion and Ms. Porter...I bought Ship of Fools. Intend to start the beginning of the book very soon. Thank you for having me in your discussion. It's not a time when I feel very welcome anywhere. That's another story. Spoilers don't bother me. I just find myself thinking "did that happen?" Then, I must read all about it (laugh).

nlhome · « **Reply #156 on:** January 19, 2012, 08:36:36 AM »

"weariness or his indifference to the whole sordid affair"

That reflects my feelings as I struggle through this. Some parts read quickly - some bog me down.

Hat,you'll finish before I will at this rate.

JoanP · « **Reply #157 on:** January 19, 2012, 10:08:49 AM »

I'm sitting here reading your posts about your struggles (and admirable determination) to finish the book...and at the same time imagining what Katherine Porter went through, stuggling to complete the book. Remembering that this woman actually experienced this cruise, heard these conversations expressing the harsh bigotry against just about everyone in the world outside of their own race. And what's more, she lived through the horror of WWII, knew many of the details of the "final solution" - (will we ever know or comprehend all of them?) and then struggled for 20 years, reliving it all over again as she wrote and rewrote this book. Talk about "weary" ...

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"It's a disaster, said Dr. Schumann, making no attempt to conceal his weariness or his indifference to the whole sordid affair."

Would Dr. Schumann's comment reflect the feelings of many readers? Jonathan, I'd agree with him on the "weariness" - but "indifference"? Never!

nlhome - I too struggle through some parts, live for the "action" - but do read the heavy parts, knowing that the author is trying to reveal something important to the story - at least something that she thinks important. For example - the long conversation between la Condesa and Doctor Schumann. (Do we ever see him referred to as "Herr Doctor Schumann" - as Herr Professor Hutten is addressed?)

Hats - please do - read on, it doesn't matter how far behind you are - (since you have told us that you don't mind Spoilers.

) I'm a little bit puzzled on what you are saying about the Survey Monkey. I wasn't aware it was asking you for any personal information whatsoever.
I hope the "other story" does not include anything that would make you feel unwelcome here. You must feel the delight from all whenever you join us.

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I just find myself thinking "did that happen?"

Perhaps the most painful part of reading this book - is that it all really did happen. And then there's the looming question - could it ever happen again?

JoanP · « **Reply #158 on:** January 19, 2012, 10:26:16 AM »

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"The world is a dangerous place for Jews."

Jonathan, yes, dangerous for Jews, for the handicapped, the poor and for anyone who is not a German. And we'll have to include Herr Freytag too - he's German, but has married a non-German, and a Jewess at that. Maybe it's because you have read ahead. I still don't see Herr Lowenthal as one who stands out in this cast of characters yet. Obviously, he is the Jew - his treatment is not surprising to those aboard the Vera. But when it comes to overt signs of injustice, can you beat what has happened to Freytag? He is cast out because he has loved and married someone who is Jewish. What would Shakespeare do with him? Isn't his sitution one that would make the world aware of how far this serious injustice is going to spread? How does Lowenthal react to Freytag's "demotion" from the Captain's table?

I find the Captain one of the most offensive and dangerous characters aboard the ship, do you?

marcie · « **Reply #159 on:** January 19, 2012, 10:40:39 AM »

I've been looking back to see what La Condesa says about her plight. The first time the doctor came to her cabin (p. 120 in hardback) she tells him about her two sons who are in hiding somewhere. She says to the doctor, "Here is the difference between you and me. I do not intend to reconcile myself with a society I despise. Yet it was not I who quarreled with society, but my sons -- I was content to despise it. It was my sons who turned me out into this world... Look, I have such good health as you say. But no income at all. A prisoner on her way to a dreary island in the Canaries..."

It seems that, according to her story, her sons did some revolutionary acts that caused the officials to come after her household. They didn't find her sons but did find her.

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