Author Topic: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online  (Read 191929 times)

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2012, 02:58:58 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in
 
Bleak House                            
by Charles Dickens
                   

  

Bleak House is the 10th novel by Charles Dickens, published in twenty monthly installments between March 1852 and September 1853. It is held to be one of Dickens's finest novels, containing one of the most vast, complex and engaging arrays of minor characters and sub-plots in his entire canon. The story is told partly by the novel's heroine, Esther Summerson, and partly by an omniscient narrator.

The story revolves around the mystery of Esther Summerson's mother and it involves a murder story and one of English fiction's earliest detectives, Inspector Bucket.
Most of all, though, the story is about love and how it can cut through human tangles and produce a happy ending.

The house where Dickens lived spent summers with his family, beginning in 1850, is said to have inspired his novel of the same name.  Among others, he wrote David Copperfield in this house.
 
  
 
Lord Chancellor Copies
 (click to enlarge)

 

INSTALMENT

II
III
 


   DATE of PUBLICATION
 
 April 1852
May 1852


 
   CHAPTERS
 
5-7
  8-10  
   
 

   DISCUSSION DATES

    Feb.20-24

    Feb.25-29
 
Coavinses
(click to enlarge)
               Some Topics to Consider

In this section Dickens sets up a lot of puzzles and throws out a lot of hints, without giving any answers, but we can have a lot of fun speculating.  If you've read ahead, please don't give away anything for those of us who haven't.  You can just chuckle with your superior knowledge.

Chapter V
1. Is the little old lady actually involved in a court case?  Do you think she will play an important role in the story?

2. On hearing Richard’s name, Krook counts off names on his fingers: Carstone, Barbary, Clare, Dedlock.  Who are these?

3. Ada is sad that everyone involved in the suit should be enemies.  “It seems very strange, as there must be right somewhere, that an honest judge in real earnest has not been able to find out through all these years where it is.”  Do you think we will find out where it is?

Chapter VI
4. What is your impression of Bleak House?  Is it actually bleak?

5. Skimpole has an unusual, carefree, parasitic, approach to life.  How does he manage to get away with it?  Do you approve?

6. John Jarndyce seems to like to help protégés.  How many have you spotted so far?

7. Why do you think he has been helping Esther all these years?

Chapter VII
8. Is it just a coincidence that Guppy, a clerk at Kenge and Carboy, visits the Dedlock’s country home?  He feels he recognizes Lady Dedlock’s portrait.  What do you think is the significance of this?

9. Do you know the history of Charles I (the historical background behind the story of the ghost)?
 

                                                  

 Bleak House
 "A dreary name," said the Lord Chancellor. "But not a dreary place at present, my lord," said Mr. Kenge.


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH, Babi,   JoanK  

rosemarykaye

  • Posts: 3055
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2012, 04:08:00 PM »
I find Skimpole really annoying - one of those people who pretends he can't do things just so that other people bale him out all the time.  Didn't we read somewhere that he was based on Leigh Hunt?

Rosemary

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2012, 05:10:51 PM »
I often recognize Dickens' characters -- I feel that I know Skimpole only too well. Not his joy of life, unfortunately, but his feeling that he's doing people a favor to let them support him.

Many writers and artists are like this: Van Gogh, James Joyce, Oscar Wilde come to mind. They left a trail of people who went broke supporting them behind them. They were at least able to finish their works leaving us also with something worthwhile, unlike Skimpole. My husband's family have some such (without the artistic ability, unfortunately).

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2012, 07:17:30 PM »
JoanK
I'm so happy to hear that someonr else besides me watches Hoarders.
The words Krook uses are identical to the words that the hoarders on TV use!
Today we know that most of the hoarders suffer from Obsessive-Compulsive disorder, They can get help. In Dickens' day it was just "his character" or "peculiarity".

We too had a Rag,and Bottle man come around our neighborhood with the thinnest Nag I've ever seen. Always wondered how he had the strength to pull the cart.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2012, 08:40:23 AM »
  On your questions, PAT, is Bleak House actually bleak?  No, it doesn't seem at all so.
It does make me wonder how it came to have that name.  Perhaps it was originally built
by someone of that name.
  John Jarndyce seems to be an exceptionally fine man, kind and generous.  To a fault,
perhaps?  It would appear that he sometimes supports people without knowing a great deal
about them.

 JONATHAN, what I recalled about the 'spontaneous combustion' was the repeated reference
to a greasy yellow substance. Guppy and Weevle comment on it, and cannot discover where
it is coming from. I can't believe that detail is irrelevant and suspect that poor Mr.
Krook was liberally coated with it and got too close to the fire.

  Since it seems Dickens father spent some time if jail for debt, and was described as 'irresponsible,  I assumed Skimpole was based to some degree on him.  In the father's defense, tho', I would add that after he was freed, he was responsible enough to insist his son
be able to finish his education,  even though his mother wanted the boy to keep his job.  If that
doesn't sound very motherly, I can only assume that she had little trust in her husband's provision.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2012, 10:05:28 AM »
I find Skimpole really annoying - one of those people who pretends he can't do things just so that other people bale him out all the time.  Didn't we read somewhere that he was based on Leigh Hunt?

Rosemary
I hadn't read it before, Rosemary, but you're right.  Apparently it's a pretty accurate picture of Hunt, except that Hunt did have literary ability.  Why do others go along with people like this? is it their charm?  Are they skilled in manipulating others?

Laura

  • Posts: 197
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2012, 10:53:15 AM »
With this section of reading, I feel like I am settled into the book.  This section was very character driven --- and there were some characters! 

I do not approve of Mr. Skimpole’s freeloading.  However, he gets away with it because people support and enable him.  I wonder why?

Mr. Krook is more than odd.  His name doesn’t seem to fit with who he is --- he is a hoarder, not a crook, as far as we know now.

I am interested to see how this ghost story will fit in.  I recall that people of this time enjoyed ghost stories.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2012, 11:30:32 AM »
They certainly did, Laura, and since the ghost is supposed to show up before family disasters, I'm sure she'll appear at some important time.  I wonder if there is a disaster coming now or if we are just being introduced at this point.

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2012, 11:43:36 AM »
I have Krook rhyming with spook. I think you're right, Laura. Krook is not a crook. He buys his stuff. What a scene in his little shop. But look sharp. It's full of evidence, no doubt, that Dickens will use later. Krook has more for the record than the court across the way.

Babi, you didn't mention that he exhales smoke, 'as if he were on fire within', according to Esther. Perhaps he turns into a torch.

After five chapters and still no name for the sweet little old lady. But we're given some clues. Enough to call her the Birdlady of Chancery Lane? Spends all of her days in court, with every day expected as the Day of Judgement! Looking for omens. Studying the Book of Revelations. I assumed that she also is a suitor, but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps she has just made a life of it. I wonder who she was in real life. Dickens does not  deal in imaginary characters. They're all true to life. Dickens went on to secure a public pension for the impecunious Leigh Hunt. His father he  set up in a little cottage far out in the country. He did many good works. Almost as many as Mrs. Jellybe.

Mrs. Jellybe sounds authentic to me. It was the likes of her that made the Empire great. Her times were the glory days of British Imperial might.

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2012, 12:47:42 PM »
Jonathan
Isn't the name of the little old lady, Miss Flite?
She is listed in the table of characters as "a suitor in chancery, roomer of Mr. Krook."
She appears at the bottom of page two.

What would I do without my character list?

Laura

  • Posts: 197
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2012, 01:29:04 PM »
Jude and Jonathan
I'm confused.  I don't see the name Miss Flite in my book in Chapter 1 on pages 1, 2, or 3.  Can you give us the whole sentence?  Surely there are not multiple "translations?"

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2012, 04:37:43 PM »
Laura, I'm still calling her the "little old lady" - not only is she not introduced by name in the first instalment - I found it surprising that names were not exchanged on that morning walk when they took the tour through the Krook establishment and the sweet lady's humble home.  "little old lady introduces herself as a "suitor" as Jude says - but I don't find her name yet in the second instalment - does anyone?
I like the name though- this woman keeps the birds in cages - until the case is settled, after which she says she'll set them free, give them their freedom  to fly away.  Miss Flite indeed.

She seems to think the three wards, Beauty {Ada?}, Truth {Esther?} and Hope {Richard?} are omens and that the outcome is imminent.  Do you see her hinting that the judgement will come at her own demise.  I don't know why I get that feeling - will look back now at some of the things she said.

Just noticed the names in the heading, the names Mr. Krook ticks off -  Carstone, Barbary, Clare, Dedlock.  Interesting, isn't it?  The Jarndyce ward and cousin, Richard Carstone, the Barbary "niece" - Esther, the Jarndyce, ward and cousin, Ada Clare...Things are coming together, aren't they? I can see the connections among the first three names, but  what do the Dedlocks have to do with the Jarndyce case?  Is this part of the mystery?

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11265
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2012, 05:35:58 PM »
Laura I believe her name is given later in the story - it is a bit hard to keep to the chapters when some of us have either seen the PBS series of this book or we had read the book in the past - she was also the character I chose to come as to our Dickens party and her name was given when we summed up our various characters.

I wonder if some of the crayon drawings on the walls of Mr. Jarndyce's house were drawn by Mr. Skimpole. His character must have been a popular caricutature during this time in history - he is so like Ethelbert "Bertie" Stanhope in the Barchester Towers by Trollope -

Bertie an idling, carefree man who never settles down in anything he does, and who spends far more than he is able to earn himself. Under his older sister Charlotte's advice he is asked to woo the beautiful widow Eleanor Bold who has a young child and was left quite comfortable with both her husband's inheritance and the inheritance she received from her late mother the wife of Mr Septimus Harding the the meek, kind, elderly precentor of Barchester and former Warden of Hiram's Hospital. The characters Mr. Jarndyce and Septimus also have a lot in common.

In earlier times Mr. Skimpole would be a ward of the King's Court as most artists and court musicians or, at the least,  the court Jester. I am thinking he is to Mr. Jarndyce what Paris Hilton is to us today - looks attractive and makes everyone around her think they are glamorous. Inconsequential but fun... certainly the very opposite Miss Summerson, now keeper of the keys.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11265
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2012, 06:10:52 PM »
Quote
When I came back, Mr. Skimpole kissed my hand and seemed quite touched. Not on his own account (I was again aware of that perplexing and extraordinary contradiction), but on ours, as if personal considerations were impossible with him and the contemplation of our happiness alone affected him. Richard, begging me, for the greater grace of the transaction, as he said, to settle with Coavinses (as Mr. Skimpole now jocularly called him), I counted out the money and received the necessary acknowledgment. This, too, delighted Mr. Skimpole.

Wow I am impressed - the observation of life that Dickens included - regardless that Skimpole acted sleazy this is an interesting observation - when we do something for another it allows us to feel good or at least satisfied with ourselves that we have acted in the good where as, the inference if we didn't help we would be closed off from our feelings or, we would have a mental scale of who we think deserves our blessings - interesting further is that Skimpole tapped into the shame button of these characters. They were both feeling in cahoots as if keeping the event from the ears of others and protecting their mentor, Mr. Jarndyce from embarrassment if Skimpole left the house to go to jail.  They both assumed responsibility for more than the debt but they interpreted others feelings based on their own and then proceeded to act to protect those interpreted feelings. Interesting...!

It was so easy to see the dynamics in print where as in real life how often we are hoodwinked by our own feelings that we must protect and end up being taken advantage of. Well we know now Mr. Skimpole is more than a court jester gifted in the arts.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11265
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2012, 06:48:06 PM »
Of the varieties the China Orange the most juicy is now grown in the South of Europe; while the St. Michael Orange (a descendant of the China, first produced in Syria), is abundant in the Azores. Varieties of blood oranges include the Egyptian, Maltese, Ruby and St. Michael. Blood oranges are widely grown in the Mediterranean regions, Italy and in Pakistan. Dickens uses St. Micheal's Oranges the opposite of squeezing blood out of a potato
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2012, 07:07:50 PM »
Laura
Sorry I wasn't crystal clear. 
When I alluded to page 2, I meant page 2 of the character list.Miss flite is immediately under Mr. Krook.
I printed the list out and it helps no end in keeping track of all the folk we are dealing with and will yet deal with in the future.
I also use it to note special happenings to these characters and as my notations grow so does my familiarity with thei HUGE cast of characters.
This book seems rather like a garden that has been overplanted and the various flower beds are intruding on one another.
How did the author keep track of this huge crowd?

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2012, 07:20:50 PM »
Jude, it makes you wonder how long it took D. to write this book, doesn't it?  He must have had an overall idea, a master plan before beginniing to write the twenty installments.  He couldn't possibly have made it up as he went along. And to think he wrote it with his 10 children underfoot...

Here are the  publication dates of the 20 installments when Bleak House first appeared -
March '52 - Sept.53.  

Instalment Date of publication Chapters
I March 1852 1–4
II April 1852 5–7
III May 1852 8–10
IV June 1852 11–13
V July 1852 14–16
VI August 1852 17–19
VII September 1852 20–22
VIII October 1852 23–25
IX November 1852 26–29
X December 1852 30–32
XI January 1853 33–35
XII February 1853 36–38
XIII March 1853 39–42
XIV April 1853 43–46
XV May 1853 47–49
XVI June 1853 50–53
XVII July 1853 54–56
XVIII August 1853 57–59
XIX–XX September 1853 60–67



JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2012, 07:35:35 PM »
Oops...I just went a'searching for more information on Dickens' method - found an article which gave away something I wish I didn't know.  Hopefully my bad memory will blot out what I read as we go on.  I'm not going to give you the source of the following information because I don't want to spoil things for you.  I thought this was interesting ...

"A common method of publishing novels in Victorian England was serialization in monthly magazines. Dickens published Bleak House in monthly installments in his own highly successful magazine Household Words between March 1852 and September 1853. Serialization affected Bleak House in various ways.

First, serialization meant that Dickens wrote as he went along. He did not outline the entire novel or even plan very far ahead — in fact, he was often so busy that he could barely meet the printer's monthly deadline for receiving the manuscript of the forthcoming installment. With some of Dickens' novels, this haste and extemporaneity resulted in some loose plot construction and in patches of writing that lacked polish. In Bleak House, Dickens managed to avoid these pitfalls of the serial method. The plot, though complicated, is tightly woven, and the prose style is consistently effective.

Serialization may even have worked to Dickens' advantage, in this case at least. The magazine readers had a whole month to let their memory of the previous installment grow dim. The best way around this difficulty was for the writer to create really memorable scenes and characters. Thus, serialization may have prodded Dickens to offer striking material and suspenseful narration. It may have encouraged his already well developed taste for caricature — highly simplified but striking character portrayal — and for grotesquerie: Both are inherently attention-getting, arresting. Unusual prose style itself is one way of producing a vivid impression. In Bleak House, inventive wording, dynamic sentences, sustained, energetic irony, and present-tense narration contribute enormously to keeping the reader's interest."


BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11265
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2012, 07:43:11 PM »
Ah they must have uploaded sometime today - this is a great round table on the Charlie Rose show for Dickens 200th birthday - starts with a trip to the Morgan Library and then goes into a wonderful lively discussion about Dickens with
 
Simon Callow, author of ‘Charles Dickens and the Great Theatre of the World’;
Jill Lepore of Harvard University;
John Romano Screenwriter;
Robert Douglas-Fairhurst of Oxford University;
Declan Kiely of the Morgan Library; 
Salman Rushdie author.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12166
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2012, 10:21:38 AM »
 What a delightful thought, BARB.  Court jester would be a perfect, and useful, role
for Mr. Skimpole.  Or, maybe not. I believe most royal courts are far more cynical than
our dear Mr. Jarndyce. :-\

 JUDE, I am frequently awed that Dickens not only kept track of all his characters, he
also wove in many intricate details, small hints, allegories...and kept track of all
that as well!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Laura

  • Posts: 197
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2012, 01:32:26 PM »
LOL!  Thank you Jude, Joan, and Barbara for clarification on the name, or lack thereof, of the old lady.

Speaking of names, the name Bleak House doesn’t seem to fit too well with the actual structure.  It is an expansive house, but seems warm and welcoming.  I did note this passage:

Or you might, if you came out at another door (every room had at least two doors), go straight down to the hall again by half-a-dozen steps and a low archway, wondering how you got back there, or had ever got out of it.

It seems like there are lots of means of escape with two doors in every room, lots of places to hide, and many places to become lost.  I’m not sure how the house will figure into the plot, but am eager to find out.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2012, 02:15:19 PM »
Laura, for me this novel is an exercise in patience.  Dickens only reveals what he wants to - in small doses.  So far, all we know is the house is called Bleak House - and that "it is a dreary name - but not a dreary place at present, my lord."  If it was dreary once, that indicates that someone named it "bleak" for that reason.  Imagine waiting a month between instalments for answers to such questions...
I agree with you, the house will figure in the plot - maybe the leading character...

Thanks for the link to the panel discussion on Dickens at 200 at the Morgan Library, Barbara.  I listened to the whole thing to the end and glad I did.  Babi just commented  that she was "awed that Dickens not only kept track of all his characters, he
also wove in many intricate details, small hints, allegories...and kept track of all that as well!"

I was heartened at Salmon Rusdie's final comments on the seriel method of publication employed by Dickens - he was speaking in general about Dickens novels, mentioned how obsessive he was about loose ends; said he will tell what happens to every character at the end, no matter how minor - even their pets!  That gives me hope the same will be true of the many characters in Bleak House.  He must have had a huge board, maybe a chalk board,  or something similar - on which he kept track of the characters, don't you think?

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2012, 02:34:50 PM »
I've known Skimpoles - charming ones.  Once I worked with one - must amusing, entertaining, the life of all of our social gatherings.  When he got fired, we were all so sad and somehow pressure was applied to the higher ups and our Skimpole promised to do better - and to our surprise and delight, they re-hired him!  Why?  Because he was so lovable.  That's the only reason I can think of.  We all did our jobs better because he made us all happy...

Why does Jarndyce keep Skimpole around - feed him, pay his debts?  Another mystery.  Is it another example of his philanthropy?  Actually, Coavinces doesn't seem like such a dreadful place, does it?  I've a footnote that describes it -

Quote
"a so-called lock-up house,  named after its proprietor, which combined features of a jail and a hotel.  In such establisments debtors were detained until someone paid for their release or until they were transferred to a debtors' prison."

Maybe he would have learned something from being locked up for a while.  What is the repeated excuse that this man is really only  a child?  Are we supposed to believe that he is retarded in some way?

BarbStAubrey

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 11265
  • Keep beauty alive...
    • Piled on Tables and Floors and Bureau Drawers
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2012, 03:04:44 PM »
Oh my while I was writing away you posted Joan - I think Mr. Jarndyce gets as much fun from having Mr. Skimpole living with him to buck up a jolly as y'all felt at your work plus in the days before radio Skimpole could fill the house with music.

Yes Laura, it reminded me of a place I stayed at years ago in Rye - I thought it was the Smuggler's Inn but maybe not - I do remember though this warren of rooms with short flights of very old wooden stairs going every which way, some only one or two steps at the entry to a door that led to a small room.

Have you noticed there appears to be a pattern in these early chapters describing a confusing, disorganized, clutter all jumbled crying for order - the streets they travel in London have dogs, horses, Foot passengers, jostling one another's umbrellas in a general infection of ill temper, crust upon crust of mud, nearby barges, skippers with pipes in their mouths, ancient Greenwich pensioners, wheezing by the firesides of their wards And then among wasted candles is the registrar's red table and the silk gowns, with bills, cross-bills, answers, rejoinders, injunctions, affidavits, issues, references to masters, masters' reports, mountains of costly nonsense,

At  Lincolnshire we have both a trail of rooms in the office of Mr. Tulkinghorn and the attentions to Mrs. Deadlock - as many cast-iron boxes in his office with that name outside as if the present baronet were the coin of the conjuror's trick and were constantly being juggled through the whole set. Across the hall, and up the stairs, and along the passages, and through the rooms, which are very brilliant in the season and very dismal out of it--fairy-land to visit, but a desert to live in-- And then the attentions revolving about Mrs. Deadlock - from her maid to the manager of the Italian Opera, knows her weaknesses, prejudices, follies, haughtinesses, and caprices and lives upon as accurate a calculation and as nice a measure of her moral nature as her dressmaker takes of her physical proportions. Is a new dress, a new custom, a new singer, a new dancer, a new form of jewellery, a new dwarf or giant, a new chapel, a new anything,

In the next chapter everything seems orderly and the word is used, even Esther's living at a series of homes but when she hits London the discombobulation begin. It starts with her reading and not understanding so her response is to  straighten her bonnet looking at her reflection in a glass that on the other side she sees a shabby room, dusty tables, and at the piles of writings, and at a bookcase full of the most inexpressive-looking books that ever had anything to say for themselves. Then I went on, thinking, thinking, thinking; and the fire went on, burning, burning, burning; and the candles went on flickering and guttering, and there were no snuffers

Next we have the jumble of everything Jellyby - children literally crying, household items, disconnected events involving nearly everyone who lives and helps in the house, even the clothes are described as a jumble.

Next morning they take a walk leaving Crumbs, dust, and waste-paper...Some pewter pots and a milk-can hung on the area railings; out the open door they met the cook coming out of a public-house - and again they feel confused by the streets that actually end up a circuitous paths leading only a short distances to the next jumble. After meeting Miss Flite again they come upon Krook's with jumble after jumble - the one on bottles alone is, quantities of dirty bottles--blacking bottles, medicine bottles, ginger-beer and soda- water bottles, pickle bottles, wine bottles, ink bottles;

Before we even read the description you shared Laura of the Jarndyce rooms we are treated to another jumble of scenes. Wheels sent the road drift flying about our heads like spray from a water-mill. Presently we lost the light, presently saw it, presently lost it, presently saw it, and turned into an avenue of trees and cantered up towards where it was beaming brightly. It was in a window of what seemed to be an old-fashioned house with three peaks in the roof in front and a circular sweep leading to the porch. A bell was rung as we drew up, and amidst the sound of its deep voice in the still air, and the distant barking of some dogs, and a gush of light from the opened door, and the smoking and steaming of the heated horses, and the quickened beating of our own hearts, we alighted in no inconsiderable confusion.

Even the keys are organized and matched to locks when Esther has them under her care.

The only calm order seems to be surrounding Esther and the Garden in Lincoln Inn when court is not in session - Miss Flite's room and curiously at night - when ever night is described it is with a wonderment and clarity that is the opposite of these daytime scenes.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2012, 06:13:52 PM »
I was really thinking Mr. Skimpole was infantile in his behaviour
Esther notes he has 'the appearance of a damaged young man pg 69

 maybe with a low I. Q. ...the reasoning why Mr. J was looking after him; but in looking thru my notes I noticed Mr. S. had been educated in the medical profession (same page)--though he didn't remain in it very long

its really hard to believe with all the information about Mr. S. he accomplished something of a profession
...............

After reading 'Tale of Two Cities' in high school 40+ years ago 'it was the best of times, it was the worst of times' etc...reading another Dicken's novel never crossed my mind.  But somehow the topic of him came up in one of the last conversations with my father before he passed away; and he told me Charles Dickens was a favourite author of his....
It was my father's words that propelled me into this read, and I am amazed at the dimension of the world and characters in this novel.  

I did get a copy of the BBC movie which is in 3 discs; only viewed the first one, so not to spoil the book for myself--so roughly 1/3 thru the book-- wonderful visualization of the foggy ride in the horse drawn carriage ...Mrs Firth's dwelling, the clutter of the landlord, Krook's accommodations....Mrs. Jellyby and her household, Lady Dedlock

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2012, 07:55:13 PM »
Oooh thanks, Deb!  I forgot that Mr. Skimpole was trained as a doctor.  How did he get through med school?  Is Dickens commenting on the quality of medical schools - or doctors at the time?  As I remember Skimpole had two major problems...one was that he had no concept of time.  I've forgotten the other .  Do you remember? He must have entertained his patients though...that would be therapeutic, don't you think? :D

Krook is an odd, but interesting character - he seems important to the story.  He's familiar with every facet of the Jarndyce case - Has he learned all the names from the law documents he has accumulated?  He can't read, am I right?  Or perhaps he can't write - It is said he copies from memory - writes letters upside down?  They call him "the Lord Chancellor"  - why?  And what is he copying anything for?

For those   who don't have the PHIZ illustrations before you - (it seems there were two in each monthly instalment)  - you will find the two in the heading.  Notice that they are really too small to make out, but if you can enlarge them if you click on the smaller ones...

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2012, 09:24:07 PM »
Great recap, Barb. What a great show Dickens puts on. Great theater. And the drama will just increase, no doubt, as we read on. Bleak House sounds like a split level to me. Full of interesting things, including that curious Hindoo chair brought from India nobody knew by whom. The place has a very pleasant atmosphere. And Mr. Jarndyce is at peace with himself. I believe he is the sole remaining Jarndyce. His life is working away at philanthropy.

And that scoundrel Skimpole gives him the opportunity. Trained as a physician. Of course. He has an amazing ability to make people feel better about themselves. Playing the child plays right into Dickens' hands as well. Funny, isn't it? The man who has come to arrest him is not taken in by Skimpole's clever talk. So much the worse for him. The question is, are we taken in by Dickens' account of things? Are the Jellybe kids that hard done by? I get the impression that they're having a wonderful time. Living unsupervised is a ball. So what are a few bumps and bruises? Kids will fall down steps and get hung up in railings. The scene was probably put in to allow Esther to show her stuff.

rosemarykaye

  • Posts: 3055
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2012, 02:58:59 AM »
I expect I've already said this, but Armistead Maupin says he was much influenced by Dickens' way of storytelling when he wrote Tales of The City - and Alexander McCall Smith wrote Scotland Street after a conversation with Maupin at a dinner party in SF - so Dickens' influence has spread to the most unlikely places.  I don't think either of those two match Dickens for his huge casts and intricate plotting, but you can see a link.

Rosemary

nancymc

  • Posts: 348
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2012, 06:21:18 AM »
Delighted to see first mention of Nemo, in 1948 when I first read Bleak House a group of us giggly girls had our eye on a young man but we could not find out his name so we called him Nemo after the character in Bleak House.  It is marvellous to be re-visiting Bleak House and realizing why it is my favourite Dickens.  Like Jonathan I think the Jellaby children had a great time no one fussing them and telling them what to do.  I am sure there is enough food even if some of it comes out of the coal scuttle.  I am convinced there was never an author as clever as Dickens, how he could spend so much time going into details about his characters, and how did his readers keep their patience till the next instalment.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9952
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2012, 07:55:38 AM »
I haven't had the time to read but a few pages so I can't comment on much of what is going on. However, I am delighted to hear that Dickens used a character name of Nemo much earlier than Verne's Captain Nemo. Nemo in Latin means no one, or nobody. I always thought of Verne's pick of that name as some kind of as a play on word or joke. Also, I just learned that to the Oromo people of Ethiopia, nemo meant The Man. Just love it.

bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2012, 08:29:40 AM »
JoanP--regarding Mr. Skimpole's shortlived medical profession -he worked in the household of a German prince
and his fault he admits is his
Quote
Quote
'he has always been a mere child in point of weight and measures ....he had never been able to prescribe with the requisite accuracy of detail'

bleak house was once called the 'Peaks' pg 96 and was chanaged to 'bleak house' when the great uncle Tom Jarndyce of the present John Jarndyce felt with the law suite that it was
Quote
'the beginning of the end'
& lived in the house 'closed up poring over the legal papers hoping to bring  the mess to a conclusion

I am reading 'the oxford illustrated dickens'--Bleak House--unfortunately a library loan, but in the meantime many pages in chapters have headings i.e.
chapter VII--The Ghost Walk pg 81
                                        pg 83-Chesney Wold
                                        pg 85-Mrs. Rouncewell & Her Grandson
                                        pg 87-Company to See the House
                                        pg 89-Portrait of Lady Dedlock
                                        pg 91-The Legend of the Ghost's Walk
and there are so many illustrations; I think I read there are 40 thru the book

just a note to let you know in case you can get your hands on a copy of this edition of the book

Deb       

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2012, 08:57:37 AM »
Deb, thanks so much for the Skimpole reminder - I can see where not being able to prescribe with accuracy would be a problem in the medical profession.  So what does he do for a living?  He seems to have no problem spending money - running up debts - but where is the income?  Does he get an allowance from Jarndyce?  Come to think of it, where does Jarndyce's income come from?

I'm reading the same illustrated Oxford edition with the illustrations, Deb.  (Also the Norton Critical with footnotes).  As we discuss each instalment, we are including the illustrations in the heading with the Instalment under discussion.  Notice that you can click the illustrations in the heading to enlarge them if the edition you are reading doesn't have them.

Also you can see the discussion schedule in the heading.  We know you are reading ahead of the discussion schedule this week - you almost have to - but we are trying to focus the discussion on one Instalment at a time.  This week we are discussing the second instalment - which includes chapters V-VII.

On Saturday, the 25th, we'll begin to focus on the third instalment - chapters VIII- X  Those of you who are puzzling over the names "Nemo" and "the Peaks"will find them in the third instalment.  Let's wait til then for further comment, okay?  We still have more to dissect from second instalment.

Can we hear from the rest of you on the pace for the discussion?  Are you way ahead, or is the pace just right for you?  We thought five days for discussion of each installment was a good pace, but not sure now...

Rosemary, I was not familiar with Armistead Maupin.  Thought he was a British writer - Looked him up and see that he is an American.- http://www.armisteadmaupin.com/Bio.html  Have you read Tales of the City?  Will definitely check it out.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2012, 09:16:47 AM »
 Why, JOAN, of course Dickens only revealed what he wanted to..in small doses. How else
do you keep people interested through all those installments?  :)

 I agree, BARB. Mr. Jarndyce has seen so much of human greed and villainy, it must be a
relief to spend time with someone so apparently childish.  Unfortunately, I doubt very
much if Skimpole is all that naive; I think he is found himself a very workable scam.
  I love that intriguing little cue to any disturbance to Mr. Jarndyce's peace.  The wind is in
the east, and the hair is immediately rumpled.

 Personally, JONATHAN, I would find having my hurts, my dirty body, clothes, etc., and
my cries ignored by a mother who can't be bothered to be quite hurtful. As an adult,
now, would you and NANCY think it a good thing to leave your children unsupervised? Sure, it's a
ball, right up to the time you get seriously hurt or killed.

 Oh, thanks, BOOKAD. I had missed or forgotten about the earlier name of Bleak House.
Sharp eye for detail, there.  The different titles on succeeding pages is unusual, isn't
it?   It does make it a bit easier, tho', if you want to go back looking for something.
 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Laura

  • Posts: 197
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2012, 09:26:35 AM »
Regarding the pace of the discussion...
I like the schedule of five days per installment.
According to the heading, we will start discussion of the next session on Saturday, Feb. 25, correct?  Joan said Sunday the 26th, which I think is a bit too long to spend on the current section.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2012, 09:41:23 AM »
Five days suits me too, Laura.  I misspoke...we'll begin the third instalment on Saturday, the 25th. - I'm going to edit my post right now.

 Do you feel it would be helpful to start a list of unsolved mysteries - we could add to it as we go along - or remove them as Dickens solves them.

bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2012, 10:00:24 AM »
humble apologies everyone

somehow I was reading as if we were to do 5 chapters/5 days
....and struggling to do so I might add
relief...whew!! to know I don't have to keep up that pace

I've never taken directions very well...hope I didn't spoil anything for you

will slow down

5 days per section is good for me as well

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2012, 10:57:25 AM »
I am so grateful for this discussion as I would miss so much if reading it alone on my own. 

Mr Jarndyce does seem to be tolerant sort of fellow, doesn’t he, in his relationships – so very of accepting Mr. Skimpole and also Mrs Jellybe, whom most of us would not speak well of.  I thought it interesting the way he tried to probe and get to the young persons’ thoughts of Mrs. Jellybe.  Apparently Ava (conversation not heard by Esther)  did not “bad mouth” her at all, and Esther did try to sugar coat her comments.  But Richard  bluntly states –“the little Jellybes are in a devil of a state.”  They may have been happy without parental supervision, as some of you have stated, but Peepy and Caddie sure lapped up the attentions of Esther.  And apparently BOTH of them sought her out for more.

And we have another mystery – was it Mr. Jarndyce who was in the coach with Esther when she was on her way to the Dollys?  It appears that he caught Esther's reflection of recognition.

I have not yet reached Chapter VII, but am looking forward to hopefully getting to know more about the Dedlocks.

My printer from “h” would not print out the list of characters (above) as it did for Jude, so I went looking for another, and I think, JoanP, that I ran into a site similar to what you saw, that gave you more info than what you wanted. I don’t remember everything I read, so maybe I won’t remember that.

rosemarykaye

  • Posts: 3055
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2012, 11:49:01 AM »
I am only up to chapter 9 but I will try to hurry up now that I have my OU assignment in (hooray).

Joan - yes, I have read Armistead Maupin and I absolutely love him, but he's not everyone's cup of tea - as you might expect, he writes from a very gay slant, but I find his depiction of San Francisco in the 1970s (I think that's when it's set) just brilliant, and his books are real page turners for me.   Mrs Madrigal (the landlady in Tales, and a pivotal character) was played in the TV series by Olympia Dukakis, and Mary Ann was played by Laura Linney - they both made it unforgettable.

Rosemary

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2012, 01:06:35 PM »
One of the things I like about Dickens is his throwaway lines--telling little phrases or sentences jus thrown in for fun.  Barb, you spotted one I missed: "and at a bookcase full of the most inexpressive-looking books that ever had anything to say for themselves."

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Bleak House by Charles Dickens - February Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2012, 01:26:48 PM »
About the scam artist Mr.Skimpole. The two problems he has, as he notes about himself:"No idea of time or money."

However as the little scene where he gets Esther and Richard to pay his debts shows, he has a fine sense of money; other people's money! What a clever crook he is. He has glammed onto Mr. Jarndyce and lives for free. How did he get into debt?

For those who think the Jellyby children are having "fun" I suggest you read a novel called "The Gathering" by Anne
Enright. It won the Man Booker Prize for Literature in 2007. It tells the story of a large family of nine in Ireland where the mother pays no attention to her children and the effect on the children, now grown up, and gathering for the funeral of one of the siblings who committed suicide.