PBS Masterpiece Classic 2012-2013

[marcie]

 

Masterpiece Classic brings back favorite authors and programs and introduces new programs. See the 2013 MASTERPIECE CLASSIC schedule.

NOW DISCUSSING
What's playing on your PBS station? What programs do you continue to enjoy?


Downton Abbey: Season 3, Episode 7
1 95-minute episode — Sunday, February 17, 2013
The Crawleys head to a Scottish hunting lodge, while the downstairs staff stays behind at Downton Abbey. New romances flare up, and a fresh crisis unfolds.

COMING


Page Eight
February 24,, 2013 at 9pm
One 120-minute episode
Sixty-something MI-5 agent Johnny Worricker has amassed an impressive art collection, an amicable collection of ex-wives, and a droll, unflappable relationship with the work he enjoys alongside his boss and best friend, MI5 chief Benedict Baron. But when Benedict brings to light damning evidence of British complicity with illegal American torture operations, it falls to Johnny to do the right thing.


Song of Lunch
March 24,, 2013 at 9pm
One 120-minute episode
A dramatisation of Christopher Reid's narrative poem, telling the story of a book editor who, 15 years after their break-up, meets his former love for a nostalgic lunch at the Soho restaurant they used to frequent. The production is unusual in featuring little spoken dialogue, the action instead being an enactment of incidents described in poetic monologue of the male character. Starring Alan Rickman & Emma Thompson.


Mr. Selfridge
March 31,, 2013 at 9pm
One 120-minute episode
Upstart American Harry Selfridge moves heaven and earth to build his visionary department store in London. But opening day is just the start of his retail revolution.  Three-time Emmy® winner Jeremy Piven (in his first television appearance since his iconic role as Hollywood agent Ari Gold in Entourage) stars as Harry Gordon Selfridge, the flamboyant entrepreneur and showman seeking to provide London's shoppers with the ultimate merchandise and the ultimate thrill. Mr. Selfridge is created by Emmy® Award-winning writer Andrew Davies (Pride and Prejudice, Bleak House).


ALREADY DISCUSSED

Downton Abbey: Season 3, Episode 6
1 120-minute episode — Sunday, February 10, 2013
Change arrives in a big way for several key characters at Downton Abbey. A yearly cricket match with the village sees old scores settled and new plots hatched.


Downton Abbey: Season 3, Episode 5
1 60-minute episode — Sunday, February 3, 2013
Things go badly amiss at Downton Abbey. Robert and Cora are not speaking. The servants are shunning Matthew's mother Isobel. And Matthew and Robert have fallen out. Also, Bates takes a gamble.


Downton Abbey: Season 3, Episode 4
1 60-minute episode — Sunday, January 27, 2013
The Crawley family faces its severest test yet. Meanwhile, new faces try to fit into the tight-knit circle of servants. And new evidence turns up in a baffling case.


Downton Abbey: Season 3, Episode 3
1 60-minute episode — Sunday, January 20, 2013
Two social revolutions arrive at Downton Abbey: the Irish civil war and the fight for women's suffrage. A mysterious conspiracy keeps Anna and Bates apart.


Downton Abbey: Season 3, Episode 2
1 60-minute episode — Sunday, January 13, 2013
The fate of Downton Abbey hinges on a letter from a dead man. Edith and Sir Anthony face their own fateful moment. Mrs. Hughes confronts a crisis.


Downton Abbey: Season 3, Episode 1
1 120-minute episode — Sunday, January 6, 2013
Wedding guests descend on Downton Abbey, where disasters large and small threaten. One is Cora's freewheeling American mother, who tries to loosen up her in-laws.


Downton Abbey Revisited
1 90-minute episode — Sunday, November 25, 2012
Savor highlights from the first two seasons and get a preview of Season 3 in this new PBS special.


Upstairs Downstairs: Season 2, Episode 6
1 90-minute episode — Sunday, November 11, 2012
A chance remark at the Foreign Office alerts Hallam that one of his associates is a German spy—with tragic consequences. As war is declared, life upstairs and downstairs is transformed at Eaton Place.


Upstairs Downstairs: Season 2, Episode 5
1 90-minute episode — Sunday, November 4, 2012
With war looming, romance is in the air—illicit and otherwise. Hallam, Agnes, Landry, and Persie each pursue their heart’s desire in different ways. Harry and Beryl get engaged. And even Pritchard finds a soulmate.


Upstairs Downstairs: Season 2, Episode 4
1 90-minute episode — Sunday, October 28, 2012
All of London sees Agnes’s shapely legs when she models stockings for Landry’s company—offending Hallam. Intent on impressing Beryl, Harry enters the servants’ boxing competition as Johnny’s manager.


Upstairs Downstairs: Season 2, Episode 3
1 90-minute episode — Sunday, October 21, 2012
Hallam’s Aunt Blanche appears in a novel by a former lover, sparking a scandal that threatens the good name of Eaton Place. Meanwhile, Agnes’s demands on the servants bring a social worker to set her straight.


Upstairs Downstairs: Season 2, Episode 2
1 90-minute episode — Sunday, October 14, 2012
Ambassador Kennedy and his dashing son Jack come to dinner at Eaton Place. But Agnes is more entranced by another guest: millionaire Caspar Landry. Before the evening is over, Mrs. Thackeray resigns.


Upstairs Downstairs: Season 2, Episode 1
1 90-minute episode — Sunday, October 7, 2012
Pritchard takes the rap for Johnny in a shocking incident, which leads to a revelation that casts the butler into disgrace. On a diplomatic mission to Germany, Hallam meets Persie, who has a Nazi lover.


Upstairs Downstairs: Season 1 - rebroadcast
3 60-minute episodes — Sunday, Sept. 30, 2012
It's 1936, a tumultuous time in Britain, and within the walls of 165 Eaton Place, characters from an orphanage, a damp Welsh castle, the heart of the British Raj and elsewhere together will face a changing world, not just upstairs and downstairs, but side by side. Written by Heidi Thomas (Cranford, Madame Bovary), Upstairs Downstairs stars co-creators of the original series Jean Marsh and Eileen Atkins (Cranford, Bertie and Elizabeth). Also starring are Ed Stoppard (Any Human Heart), Keeley Hawes (Wives and Daughters), and Claire Foy (Little Dorrit). Available online at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/watch-online/

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and marcie

[marcie]

Jean, Rosemary and Thyme isn't currently showing in my area. I have seen some of the episodes and enjoyed them. It looks like some are available for viewing online at http://www.kcet.org/shows/rosemary_and_thyme/web-extras/watch-full-episodes-of-rosemary-and-thyme-online.html

[marcie]

Reminder that the first episode of Downton Abbey, season 3, will be showing on most PBS stations this Sunday for two hours.

[ginny]

Today's Parade Magazine, in many Sunday newspapers, has a wonderful article by Julian Fellowes  on  Downton  Abbey, and how his own departed relatives have influenced his characters. I loved what he wrote about his father:

http://www.parade.com/celebrity/celebrity-parade/2013/01/06-downton-abbey-sunday-night-obsession.html

It's wonderful. Can't wait till tonight.

This article apparently appears in a book I have not read:

Adapted from The Chronicles of Downton Abbey by Jessica Fellowes & Matthew Sturgis; foreword by Julian Fellowes. Copyright © 2012 by the authors and reprinted by permission of St. Martin’s Press, LLC.

[JoanK]

Rosemary and Thyme is broadcast here during the day. I never think to turn it on until it's halfway over, which doesn't do for a mystery.

Looking forward to Downton tonight.

[JeanneP]

Yes, tied to the TV tonight from 7pm to 10 pm for sure.  Better have PJs on.

Turn off the phones.

[mabel1015j]

Its competing w/ The Good Wife, i'll have to watch GW ondemand i guess. Andrea Mitchell pitched DA on her show this morning.

Jean

[Frybabe]

Good show last night. Poor Shirley MacLaine. I thought she would crack her makeup if she smiled or moved her face muscles too much.

[jeriron]

Downton Abby was soooo good. I had to laugh out loud at all the "Maggie Smith's" one liner's. As for  Shirley MacLaine. she did look strange as far as her makeup , it made her look stiff. I wonder if that was the extend of her being on the show being as she said it was time for her to go back home. What I didn't like was knowing that Matthew was leaving the show so I kept thinking about that through out. I did read awhile ago how he leaves and I won't say because no one else that knows has.

I got to watch it during the day yesterday because PBS had it on demand before it was on at night. So strange they do that every so often.

[ginny]

I agree with both of you about Shirley MacLaine's appearance. I thought she did a creditable  job, however, with her part. I expected her to be totally over the top and she wasn't.

The best line of the night to me was Maggie Smith's saying she needed a drink as she turned to her son Lord Grantham, and then then saying oh I thought you were (because of his outfit), the footman or something like that.  I laughed out loud.

Goodness so nice to see Lady Mary smile for once, she's quite pretty when she does.

Do you think that Cora's oh well, my money is all gone, that's ok, we can live in poverty is quite "American" or rings true? Lots on Americans in this one.

Yesterday in the newspaper there was an interview with Shirley MacLaine in which she said she wanted to meet the guy playing Mr. Bates in fact and Julian Fellowes had set up a meeting with only him there. That's interesting.

Loved the elegant lady at the dinner saying the "picnic" made her feel quite young again.

That was  a promising start, I thought.

[JeanneP]

I think that it is giving a idea on what is going to happen to Mathew. He won't be leaving for ever. Sort of doing what they do on US. Soap opera's when the star is doing another show or chance to do a movie. Letting them off for a time.
My idea is. Because of the Will showing him now coming into lots of money. Land (says he won't accept it). and he being a lawyer he will go out to India to handle the Plantation and businesses that tie into the Will. Return to England after awhile and back in the show.

I would not have known that was Shirley McClain had I not known she was going to be in. Had her looking so old. Not that she is young. Don't think she is in for the long run as she ready to go back to US in the show. Can't see her having a big part.
Looks like will be another wedding soon. So they have all their daughters married off.  They can stand to move into a smaller place.  Not Mary though. She wants it all.

[JoanK]

I would have watched it alone for the scene where Shirley MacLaine sang "Let me call you sweetheart" to Maggie Smith. Priceless!

[MaryPage]

I thought our Shirley was Great!  And I, too, loved the singing part.  She is SEVENTY-NINE years old now, and not the Shirley we once knew.

I loved every bit of last night's show, and I, too, know what happens to Matthew, but will be careful not to say.

Loved the special hour about the castle prior to the show, too.  I did not know this lord's grandfather was the Lord Carnavon who discovered King Tut's tomb!

[JeanneP]

I remember taking grandson the Chicago Fields Museum to See all the King Tut treasures.  Surprised they could find them and take them out of the country years ago. This Lord Carnavon.  The ones that go around belong the the Museum in I thought Egypt.

[rosemarykaye]

Ginny - that comment of Cora's really riled us!  She clearly hasn't got the faintest notion what it would be like even to live without servants, never mind in poverty! (it was her money that financed Downton in the first place, so she comes from wealth.)  For us it smacks a tad too much of David Cameron (our PM) who has a multi-million trust fund, a very wealthy wife, etc and who lately keeps banging on about how 'we're all in this together' - AS IF!!

Rosemary

[jeriron]

Rosemary

 she stood by her husband even though he lost all her money. They still had DA because of her money.  Maybe she doesn't really know what it would be like to live without it remains to be seen I guess. I think it's Mary who would have the biggest problem with that kind of change even though her sister is happy living completly different then she did at Downton.

[ginny]

Those are  good points, Rosemary and Jeriron, tho they are opposed.

(Jeriron, what is DA? I've been racking my brain, and it sounds somewhat ominous).

I don't think going from wealth to  poverty happily is particularly American.  (Lord Grantham apparently is without a "trade," or way to make money and they did make the point by the entire town turning out for the wedding what his holdings are.  He can hardly take up a position as a clerk in the Post office).  So they have no profession or way to make money. There's a little left apparently. Will Lady Cora take a position in the local shop? ...Lord Grantham can hire out as...? She might not mind but I bet it would kill him.  But I don't think saying oh poo is particularly American? At all. Apparently it's not  British either?

She was a Levinson, do I have that right?   It appears her mother is pretty clear on how the Levinson money has to be disposed, (Mr. Levinson apparently is no fool financially, having probably made it the hard way), and Cora herself says enough already, it's not fair to take any more and cheat my brother (and mother?) of the rest.

So she's standing by her man, but in this case, surely she knows (we do if she doesn't) that her MAN will be destroyed if he lets this fail, it was left to  him and now he's sunk it. That, one would think, should matter to her. Is she saying oh poo, dearie we don't need that, I am the stronger of the two of us? I wonder, too,  if it matters so little to her, she sure played the Lady of the Manor during the war, didn't she? It mattered then, in her struggles with Matthew's mother, didn't it?

It's an interesting question about status. Is Fellowes saying that in the US it's just as interesting to be a failure financially as it is to be a success? Love conquers all?  I found the American versus the British element in this one fascinating. And the implications of whether class (supposedly not an element in America) matters. Or does it?

But then again, what could she say? Really?

(And the look on both the father's and the butler's face when Mary  came down the staircase was priceless).

[Frybabe]

I wouldn't say that Lord Grantham was totally without a trade because many of the wealthy had lots of acreage in production. Lord Strallon, for instance was very keen on agriculture/husbandry, as apparently was Edith, if you recall from the first(?) season. Some took a very active role, others rented out land to local crofters. I suspect that Lord Grantham was in the latter group. The rents certainly would not be able to pay for their extravagant lifestyle. One wonders how the family acquired their wealth in the first place. Lord Grantham took a very risky route by putting so much of his funds into one stock. Where was his financial advisor? Surely, his advisor would have warned him of the risks. Did he go against advise or did the advisor sell him a pie in the sky dream. He bought into the "sure bet" and lost.

[JeanneP]

We would be amazed if they printed a list of the so call High Class people of UK. all still holding the titles for hundreds of years back. Many have not had wealth for years and years. Can get by on their Names. Not many would sue them if they did not pay their bills.
Now look at Prince Charles. He makes more from his holding than what he would be allowed just for being who he is.  That is his interest. The land and what it produces. Horses are the best breeds. I don't think he and his wife have ever lived like the People at Dalton Abbey. None of the Royals other than couple of sons of Queen Victoria even have. 
It is a TV show. Something good will happen. They will be back up.

Now look at the Family that still own the Place that Dalton Abbey filmed. I bet they are not the most wealthy. Without the name and the tourist trade. Maybe they do some farming there although it didn't look like it. Most probably the "Trusts" they have in UK are paying them something.  When the were both on TV it looked like they did not blow money away one clothes and Haircuts. Even her nails awful.

Now I am being Catty.  Shame on me.

[jeriron]

ginny

DA is Downton Abby   I guess I should have written it out 

[marcie]

What an interesting discussion...so many issues raised that didn't fully occur to me. I enjoyed the episode and some of Maggie Smith's lines were hilarious. What a dilemma for Matthew. He feels that it would be stealing to take the money left to him by his former father-in-law-to-be. The series is called "Downton Abbey." Can the family (both upstairs and downstairs) survive without it?

[Frybabe]

By all means, Jeanne, cat away. Many, many aristocratic family lived way beyond their means because they knew that they could get away with it years ago. Things changed with the onset of WWI.

What I forgot to say before is that some of these people became quite expert in certain areas. The agriculture and husbandry were prime examples of active interests that led to improved breeding both of animals and plants. Others had interests (avocations, hobbies, if you will) like in the earth and biological sciences. Some made discoveries, some funded those who did. At any rate, a number of those who became amateur experts could have become consultants. Goodness knows, we have enough of those these days whether self-taught or university trained. Lots were into government and lots of others became board members of foundations and businesses. Unless they were totally useless, I suspect many found places whether they knew much or not, as you say Jeanne, because of their titles and the deference given to them. I suspect many resisted the change, like Violet at first and Mary.

It's amazing how closely the three sisters seem to reflect me and my sisters growing up. Me, the responsible one with expectations, my youngest sister the most independent, and my middle sister trying to get her due share of attention for her accomplishments and interests.

[mabel1015j]

Have any of you watched BBCs The Hour? I just read about it and the second season is on demand. It's about the production of a tv magazine in the 1950s, obviously in Britain. In a five minute preview, every character had a cigarette in hand - how strange that seemed. 

Jean

[marcie]

Yes, I've been watching The Hour. It does bring back the 50s and the beginnings of television journalism. It deals with government conspiracy and crime. It can be quite unnerving.

[ginny]

Jeriron, DUH!! How dumb can I get!! Thank you for DA, now we see what we are dealing with in me.  hahahaa

Farming as a trade?

Somebody correct me here. If Lord Grantham loses Highclere...er, I mean  Downton, he loses it all. The farms which he oversees are entailed with the estate, aren't they? They  would not be his unless he bought a piece, they would be owned by Andrew Lloyd Weber...er... no that's Highclere where they film...sorry.... which apparently, ironically,  "Downton" has saved.

Perhaps he has an overseer's knowledge?  But he's not actually out there in his Wellies mucking about with the pigs, is he? He could probably buy a small croft with what's left and he and Lady Cora could raise marrows or piglets and sell...er.....oh please.

Can you actually SEE him for one minute hauling produce to the store, tugging at his forelock to the current Arab who owns Downton? He can't do that because of who he is, which of course is no fault of his. And he still would be in the House of Lords, right? Or not? (We can see how much I know about British aristocracy!)

I wonder if this would be easier for Cora and that's what Julian Fellowes is trying to indicate. There IS a difference in the Levinson money and his inherited money, and it's a big one, for him.

That's an interesting question Marcie has asked.  The series is called "Downton Abbey." Can the family (both upstairs and downstairs) survive without it?


I would say  that Lord Grantham would not. Is he even old enough to retire? I think the actor who plays him is only 49.  Depends on what you mean by survive.

What happens to these deposed Lords of the Manor when the manor is sold? Anybody know?

We all know about the Duke of Windsor but he had money. What happens when they don't?

Who else? That's a good question.

[Frybabe]

No, I can't see Lord Grantham out in his Wellies. Sir Stallon, maybe, but not Lord Grantham. In fact, it is hard to say what interests Lord Grantham has at all except for Downton and it's upkeep. Which reminds me, how many of the manors today are open to the public with the current Lords and Ladies still owning them (if not living in them)? There are a few, I think. Does the national trust subsidize manors open to the public but owned still by the aristocrats or do they own them outright the National Trust?

This article has an interesting statistic or two, although it doesn't completely answer the question: http://www.aristocracyuk.co.uk/

An interesting article from Wikipedia on the destruction of manor houses. I see it mentions Brideshead Revisited which I haven't read. Did it include the dismantling of the manor house? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_country_houses_in_20th-century_Britain

Has anyone read David Cannadine's The Decline and Fall of the British Aristocracy. It looks very interesting.

Lucy is cutting of my research. She wants to play.

[ginny]

Has anyone read David Cannadine's The Decline and Fall of the British Aristocracy. It looks very interesting.

I have. It's actually gigantic, astounding, frightening and depressing.

Non sequitur of the day: it's fascinating to read Hugh Bonneville's "tweets" on Twitter. Talking with Hugh Grant. Bonneville is quite political, interesting.

That's a good question about how many of the "manors" are open today. I would think almost all of them, am I right?  Highclere is.

Another good question: Does the national trust subsidize manors open to the public but owned still by the aristocrats or do they own them outright the National Trust?

I thought once the National Trust bought it, it was theirs. No? Or is it like one of the Conservancy things here in the US, you can grant access to your property while you live on it but when you die, it's theirs?

Dunno. Good question.

(Oh you must read Brideshead!)

[JeanneP]

Once the come under the Natl. Trust they the own them.  They, I believe have sort of taken over the Debts of the owners. Or left in the wills of owner dying. They are not sold to the trust. Some of the prev. owner are allowed to live on one part of the house and be in charge  of the keeping up, Now I don't think that passes on once the people die.

NOw some of the Land may not be Freehold. Lots still could.belong to the Crown.

 Many Manors have been torn down. Land has value more than the cost of repairs. Some have been bought by Mid. Eastern people. Movie Stars. Sport players. Anyone who can afford them.  Not used like the way that it shows in Downton Abbey.  Those days are gone.  Not many Lords, Ladies all those titles out there now will soon be gone. Not given out so easy. Many can't be passed down other than the Royals.  Being a SIR. is really nothing. Just good for prestige.  Gets you a lot of free service. Upgrade on planes. Always a room in a Hotel.  Once you die its gone. Not passed. Sort of given out in respect for the work you have done.  I like that one.

[MaryPage]

It is HIGHCLERE castle and it is the Earl and Countess of Carnavon.  The current lord told the cameras quite frankly (in the special hour prior to the showing of Downton Abbey) that it is quite tough to keep the place up and that the income from the filming has allowed him to repair the roofs and windows and bring all up to snuff FOR THE PRESENT, which, he feels, is really all one can do in one's turn.

They hope for income (his son George to marry money, etc.) for the future lords to keep going, as well.

In the meanwhile, they have a whole bunch of businesses going there, including a catering business run out of their kitchen!  The lord and his lady get the leftovers from that!  They sell cookbooks and give tours and have a gift shop and all that, as well.

The youngest of the six beautiful and talented Mitford sisters married the second son of the Duke of Devonshire.  The elder son, in line to be Duke, married Kathleen Kennedy.  The elder son died, so did Kick Kennedy (though, like Lady Mary, she would not have inherited anyway), and Bob's Your Uncle, Deborah Mitford became the Duchess of Devonshire.  She rescued Chatsworth, made it beautiful and safe again, and is now the dowager duchess.  The family name in this case is Cavendish and there are heaps of books on the subject, many of which I own because I have been fascinated by all things Mitford for over half of a very long lifetime.

[ginny]

Oh  you're right, MaryPage, absolutely!  I said Highgate (the Cemetery) instead  of Highclere (the Castle), hahahaa. One wonders why one travels if that's the best one can do. hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I actually have been to Highclere a couple of years ago before it got famous, and when the rumor was that Andrew Lloyd Weber, their neighbor, was trying to buy it. It was interesting.

 I went to see the Egyptian exhibit in the basement, and the little hidden treasures that the the 5th Earl Carnarvon had held back and put away behind a sort of hidden panel or shelf, and which were found after he died. Very small pieces, but interesting.

Marcie mentioned that Matthew felt he could not take the money from Lavinias? father (not sure on her name) because he broke her  heart. That confused me, because of the timing. Did they say when her father died? Because the will must have been made before she got sick and before her heart was broken? And then the father died?  Who died first? It makes sense if  he didn't actually witness this sadness and death, that  he died first, before her.  Why would he make a will out to a fiance, when they were not married? And why wouldn't he have left his money to her? It's not a title or an estate? Or did he leave  it to her and then to him should she be deceased? But he's only a fiance. I would think that will could be contested by other relatives.


A lot can (and did) happen before a couple gets married. I am not sure I've heard of a beneficiary who was only a fiance being named.  What's the chronology of the will thing? Am I the only one confused over it?

JeanneP, that was an interesting comment on the land possibly belonging to the Crown. So possibly the revenues from farming might not be going to the estate? Interesting. I have read somewhere that Prince Charles (apparently) gets income from ...is it from the farms ON his holdings?

I don't understand the way that works. Does the farmer farm for himself, the Lord of the Manor and the Crown all at the same time? And pay taxes on it too?

[Frybabe]

I think Livinia's father must have died after she did, otherwise they would have mentioned his death last season. Don't you think? I forget whether or not they actually got married before she died.

One thing that puzzles me is, I thought that in last season, Cora was diagnosed with cancer toward the end of the season. Do I remember wrong? I was reminded of it when Mrs. Hughes found her lump. That is what I get for not watching the reruns of the last season.

[MaryPage]

Matthew and Lavinia had not yet married when she saw him kissing Mary and went into a decline and died.

Lavinia's father was not there, and Lavinia never told him.  So, when that extremely rich man died, he left his estate to his closest relative, but not that relatives heirs, stating that if that man (let's call him number one) died before Lavinia's father himself did, the money was to go to his next closest relative, whom we will call number two.  Then, if both of these were deceased, it was to go to his beloved daughter's fiance, Matthew Crawley.  The estate knew at the time Lavinia's father died that number one had already died prior to Lavinia's father's death.  So that eliminated number one.  They had to search all over for number two, but finally, after some time, found proof that he, too, had died.  So that left Matthew.  And Matthew feels strongly as a point of HONOR that he betrayed Lavinia with Mary and should not, as a matter of principle, have the principal, as it were.  I personally think he is absolutely right on the point of honor and he should take the money ANY way!

[JeanneP]

Yes, the father died after the daughter.

Now as far as I know Prince Charles land would be Freehold. given to him by the crown and so all earnings from Land farm, everything is income to Charles. I am sure most is put back in the property, employees, Believe everything is Organic. Doing very well though.
Charles will stay doing what he is doing. Would not be happy as King. He knows also that his son is the best person for it, along with most people in the UK. (lets just hope the Queen has many years left yet).

[JoanK]

Mathew feels that hee contributed to Lavinia's death: that after she saw him kissing Mary (that's all they did) she lost her will to live. It's not clear that that's really true, but I sympathize with him feeling that way and not wanting the money. Mary can't understand it at all: they really are quite different. I wonder about this supposed undying love.

[ginny]

OK  thank you MaryPage and Joan K, now I get it. That explains them out looking for #2.

Would a father (who is up here on English history??) really leave his estate to a fiance? I can see it in 2012 but I'm not quite as sure about that era.

So #2 is not found and even tho they are sure of his death, he could always come back, right? And there are no other heirs at all, no relatives, no male cousins, nothing? I'm thinking like Agatha Christie (I should be so lucky) but I have not seen the entire season III, now on DVD.

A Man of Principle. Wasn't that the title of an old book?

JeanneP, do the farmers who actually work the land owned by the Prince of Wales and through which he is provided income, get any for themselves or is it a serf type thing going on? I was under the impression that  they owned their own farms, are they renters? Squatters?

Frybabe, I agree, I can't see Robert,  L Grantham, out mucking out the barn. What would his mother say?

In many ways, this very scenario points to the class divide in England today,  or do you think there is still one?  IS there?

[JeanneP]

Most of the farms that size are run on big Estates like Charles. Cottages are provided for most of the workers. If they prefer to own their own homes of the Estate They could.  They are paid a Salary. Like in all positions now. No serfs anymore.  I know farmers but farming is on a small size for the average farmer. 50 acres would be a good size one. Up where I am from Lancashire/Yorkshire Sheep farming is a big business. Down further south it gets in more Vege table. Apple Orchards. Some Dairy.  Remember England is not as Large as this State of Illinois. Still lots of Forests

[MaryPage]

I thought Prince Charles's income came mostly from Cornwall, so I looked it up and here you go:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-charles/8603323/Prince-Charless-income-Where-does-it-come-from.html

Ginny, I was left wondering about heir number 2 and whether or not he is really dead, as well.

But remember, Lavinia's daddy was NOT landed gentry with land and family ties and all that.  Wasn't he some kind of crook who got into making money in some nefarious way and then in publishing?  He was, in short, nothing like Mary's father.  He was crazy about his daughter, and may well have left his bazillions to Matthew as his nearest, after one and two, ALMOST family.

[ginny]

That's interesting, MaryPage, thank you, but it still doesn't explain it.

Accounts for the Prince of Wales showed the majority of his private income came from the Duchy's estate, reaching almost £17.8 million.


Sort of vague here: The Duchy, which covers around 55,000 hectares in 23 counties, was established in 1337 to fund the life and work of the heir to the throne. It includes agricultural, commercial and residential properties as well as a financial investment portfolio.

Ok the premise we have advanced  here so far is that Lord Grantham, heir to Downton Abbey (the Highclere estate totals 1,000 acres) (405 hectares), knows about management of farm lands and could make his money that way.

I'm saying I don't see how and that I don't  understand the system. If Prince Charles owns the farms of the Duchy of Cornwall outright and hires people to run them that's one thing.  I'm only talking agricultural since that's all we've talked about here vis a vis the Earl's expertise in practical matters (he's certainly off in his investments, but I can sympathize there)...but should he suddenly NOT own those farms, then again how is he going to administer large swaths of land, the farms, the crops,  and presumably the people who live on them? Not sure I still understand the system, and that Telegraph accounting suspiciously includes residential properties (rents?), commercial ventures,  an investment portfolio (maybe our Earl could get a new set of advisers) and the agricultural also, there's no breakdown.

I love discussing things like this because you get to learn things you did not know, and it has a vague tentative bearing on the plot: what is Robert to DO, really?

Be a funny thing if the middle girl's rich husband whom he scorned,  ends up supporting him, huh? Because Matthew is turning away from the money...we need somebody here who understands inheritance in England (Rosemary?) to explain why a father would leave not his money (since he's not landed gentry apparently) to his own daughter.

Lots of tantalizing threads in this thing!

Fun to wonder about. And discuss!

[Frybabe]

Ginny, I suspect that Lavinia's father left Matthew the money because of the old notion that women couldn't handle business or finances. He was probably old school like Violet, whereas Matthew new business and was a lawyer (if I remember correctly). Still, it would have made more sense if the money was left to Lavinia in a trust and perhaps controlled or administered by Matthew, Matthew only inheriting upon Lavinia's death. I'm trying to put a time frame in here. Lavinia died during the flu epidemic, was that 1918? Her father died, when, about 1920? I think that is the year in which this season begins. That seems too long a time to guess that he just didn't get around to changing the will after she died. Maybe he liked Matthew and didn't want the money to go to the Crown if there were no other surviving heirs. I take it that neither son were married w/wo children. We may get more info in the upcoming episode. Well, that is my spin on the whole thing.

[ginny]

Makes more sense than mine! I don't understand a lot about what we're watching which makes it even more fun.

Here are two new ones (to me): Below Stairs which is older and  and Amazon is bringing out  January 15 a new one called Servant's Quarters (with a photo on the cover looking just like the ad for Downton's Abbey)

First for Servant's Quarters:

Release Date: January 15, 2013

Margaret Powell'sBelow Stairs, a servant's firsthand account of life in the great houses of England, became a sensation among readers reveling in the luxury and subtle class warfare of Masterpiece Theatre's hit television series Downton Abbey. In Servants' Hall, another true slice of life from a time when armies of servants lived below stairs simply to support the lives of those above, Powell tells the true story of Rose, the under-parlourmaid to the Wardham Family at Redlands, who took a shocking step: She eloped with the family's only son, Mr. Gerald.

Going from rags to riches, Rose finds herself caught up in a maelstrom of gossip, incredulity and envy among her fellow servants. The reaction from upstairs was no better: Mr. Wardham, the master of the house, disdained the match so completely that he refused ever to have contact with the young couple again. Gerald and Rose marry, leave Redlands and Powell looks on with envy, even as the marriage hits on bumpy times: "To us in the servants' hall, it was just like a fairy tale . . . How I wished I was in her shoes."

Once again bringing that lost world to life, Margaret Powell trains her pen and her gimlet eye on her "betters" in this next chapter from a life spent in service. Servants' Hall is Margaret Powell at her best—a  warm, funny and sometimes hilarious memoir of life at a time when wealthy families like ruled England.

Now for Below Stairs:


This book also, according to B&N was the basis for Upstairs, Downstairs:

Brilliantly evoking the long-vanished world of masters and servants portrayed in Downton Abbey and Upstairs, Downstairs, Margaret Powell’s classic memoir of her time in service, Below Stairs, is the remarkable true story of an indomitable woman who, though she served in the great houses of England, never stopped aiming high. Powell first arrived at the servants' entrance of one of those great houses in the 1920s.  As a kitchen maid – the lowest of the low – she entered an entirely new world; one of stoves to be blacked, vegetables to be scrubbed, mistresses to be appeased, and bootlaces to be ironed. Work started at 5.30am and went on until after dark. It was a far cry from her childhood on the beaches of Hove, where money and food were scarce, but warmth and laughter never were

It's got lots of great reviews but one snarky one saying that her penchant for saying things like "kids today..." is insulting to "anybody under 65."

'Zat so? That remark alone made me want to read it. hahahaaa It seems to be out in many editions and ebooks.

Anybody read either of these books?