Elegance of the Hedgehog ~ Muriel Barbery ~ Book Club Online ~ April 1st

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

"Prickly and popular novel on class and culture" -    "Central to the book's appeal is the compelling voice of its main character, Renée Michel, a 54-year-old Paris apartment-building concierge who struggles to hide her self-taught erudition and cultivation from snobby, rich tenants. She disdains their élitist notions of class and social order, but she knows the residents would be outraged at discovering what a deep grasp the hired help has of art and learning. So Renée masks her intellect behind the persona expected of her lowly station." Time Magazine The second narrator in the book is the precocious 12 year old daughter of one of the tenants, who hides her intelligence  from a world she finds meaningless.  The two characters neatly mirror one another in a philosophical tale of contrasts which succeeds in resolving some issues of life and death.

Discussion Schedule: April 1-3 ~ Marx Preamble pgs.17-27 April 4-12 ~ Camellias ~  pgs.31-129 April 13-16 ~ On Grammar ~ pgs.133-170 April 17-21 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238 April 22-26 ~ Paloma ~ pgs. 241-315 April 27 ~ My Camellias ~ pgs. 316-325 Final Thoughts

For Your Consideration
April 17-21 ~ Summer Rain ~ pgs.173-238

1. Why does Mr Ozu treat Madame Michel with more consideration and interest than other tenants in the building? Why does his interest make her feel naked? If she didn't want to dine with him, why do you think she accepted?

2. Why do you think Tolstoy has left such an impression on Renée? Is it the romance? Do they have a similar world view? Is this what interests the new tenant?

3. "If you have but one friend, make sure you choose her well." Were you surprised about the way Manuela took over the preparations for the "date"? Would Renée have managed this without her?

4. Do you find that Paloma's reaction to the school choir reveals a different side to her character that wasn’t apparent before? What is it about the choir that overcomes her? How is this a worthy entry for her Movement notebook?

5. Following her makeover, why does Renée worry that she looks like "a real lady"? Why does she consider it "blasphemous" to enter his apartment? How does M. Ozu react to her new look? To her obvious uneasiness?

6. What more do we learn of Paloma's schoolmates in this chapter? Were you surprised to learn that she has a best friend? Do you see any similarities between the two narrators' close friends, Marguerite and Manuela?

7. What is in Mr Ozu’s personality that makes him the first person to break through Renée’s hard shell? What effect does he have on Paloma? Do you detect a glimmer of hope for her future?

8. What is the purpose of Art, as described here? Can you compare the effect of her school choir on Paloma and Renée's response to Pieter Claesz's still life?

9. What shared tastes were revealed during the rather humorous, embarrassing bathroom episode? Do you detect a blossoming friendship - or romance, even? Has a "summer rain" revived our concierge?

10. Did you find Paloma's entry in Profound Thought #13 rather surprising, considering the disturbing revelation during the meeting with her mother's psychoanalyst?
 

Relevant Links:
Online Dictionary (English);
Glossary of posted Definitions
French-English Dictionary;
Hôtels particuliers; An Interview with Muriel Barbery;

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Eloise

[JoanP]

Laura - you must admit we are getting closer to a meeting.  Wouldn't it be amazing though, if we get through the whole book without their meeting?  M. Ozu has Paloma spying on Mme. Michel.  Surely they will meet soon!  Perhaps Paloma will get caught in the act.
 
Even if M. Ozu has the power to read people, don't you think he went a bit far in asking the 12 year old to spy on the concierge?   I mean, really!

How unusual is it for those interested in the Arts - Music, Literature and Art - to discover they have similar tastes?  I'm willing to overlook the coincidences here... BUT  I think the really  unusual thing  is for a lowly concierge -with all the appearances of a peasant background - to share these interests!   Actually, it is more than the appearance of a peasant - that actually was her background. And to think accomplished all this with no education - just the library and native curiosity!  M. Ozu is fascinated.    I am too.

Are you enjoying Manuela's appreciation for M. Ozo's renovations in the new apartment?

[straudetwo]

My goodness!  There's a lot to digest in the short measured time left to us: Melanie Klein, for example,  and the Coué method in addition to Freud, the master himself.

In our book, in  the section On Grammar and its Chapter 1. titled Infinitesimal,  THERE's
the big moment when Mme Michel comes face to face with the new tenant, introduced by Mme. Rosen.  There's some casual exchange and, for an infinitesimal nanosecond Mme Michel's eyes meet those of Mr. Ozu, their eyes  joined in linguistic solidarity, both "shuddering",  over Mme. Rosen's misuse of 'bring' versus 'take'.

Is this nanosecond of linguistic solidarity  then "love at first sight"? ??
Singly? Mutually? How can we know?


Éloïse , merci. I'm happy to relax regarding the cherry plums 
Ah, but now I'm looking for the passage with the "Qui es-tu?"  etc. 
Where is it?
I've scanned the text without luck, so far.  Is it in one of Paloma's Profound Thoughts, and if so, which one?
   
Surely, from the phrasing it seems that the words are not actually being SAID to anyone, just THOUGHT. 
Am I mistaken?
 

[Eloise]

Our concierge can’t surely be different from other women who have a secret hero to dream about and low and behold hers arrives to take up residence in her building. Well Joan in her case I do believe as you say that it must be love at first sight. But she doesn’t know that because she has never experienced love before in her life. No wonder she felt the earth shatter

 I didn’t remember that Anna Karénine started with All happy families are alike and every family is unhappy in its own way. Intelligence rests on a great memory I once heard. Oh! well! I still love Tolstoy with his grand Russian epics.

Traude, the French version page numbers doesn’t match the English one and if I can I will look up the pages you mention. Mr. Ozu was thinking of it, not actually saying it. Soit-dit-en-passant (BTW), we don’t say ‘tu’ to someone we just meet, first we say ‘vous’ especially to people of authority but say ‘tu’ to children. Now that you mention it Joan, It is very unusual for Mr. Ozu to think of saying ‘tu’ to Madame Michel. Maybe it’s a Japanese custom, but certainly not a French one.

titled Infinitesimal,  THERE's
the big moment when Mme Michel comes face to face with the new tenant, introduced by Mme. Rosen.  There's some casual exchange and, for an infinitesimal nanosecond Mme Michel's eyes meet those of Mr. Ozu, their eyes  joined in linguistic solidarity, both "shuddering",  over Mme. Rosen's misuse of 'bring' versus 'take'

.

In French Traude it’s even more of a put down. Mme Rosen who is resenting Renée’s presence in front of Mr Ozu summons her to clean up the rug in front of the Arthens door by saying: Pouvez-vous pallier à ça? That is virtually untranslatable so the translator had to use ‘bring’ and ‘take’. Oh! I love all these goings on immensely and let myself have a good laugh. I never read anything like that before.

Thank you JudeS for the exact definition of Psychoanalist and Psychiatrist, that clarifies that very important question that they are not one and same profession. We often hear that someone is going to a Psy without mentioning the whole word and that is wrong in my opinion.

Now the Met is presenting something on PBS and I want to watch that.

Thank you everyone for your wonderful posts, they enlighten the discussion

[JoanP]

Pouvez-vous pallier à ça

Oh, but Eloise, you are having more fun than the rest of us, comparing the translations!  I can't believe the translator just made up the "bring/take"  exchange because the French was  "untranslatable" - I find that just amazing!  I just had to try to translate Madame Rosen's pithiatic prattling.    (Now there's a new vocabulary word for me.  From the French - it refers to an unusual form of hysteria.)
  Mrs. Rosen demeans the concierge - using the euphemism - telling  her to "mitigate"  the mess on the doormat and get on with her work.  Are we to understand that it was the misuse of give and take that caused the flinching and their eyes to meet?  The translator made that all up? 

Actually, the  pronounced "involuntary shudder  did not occur at that point - but a moment later when M.Ozu finished the first line of Anna Karenina.  I was interested in her comment following that -

"I suppose  this means I want to be found out."

  This is huge, isn't it?  After all these years of maintaining  her peculiar form of camouflage,  she wants to be found out after talking to this man for less than a minute?

[straudetwo]

I am ever so grateful to you, Éloïse, for your last post.  It was an immense relief to know that "bring" and "take" were not the REAL issue in French.
To tell the truth, I've never been  terribly "worked up" about  those two verbs, which rank far,   FAR behind in importance  compared to  "lie" and "lay".  But I won't go  into that. Just many, many thanks to you.

Of course we take from, and/or read into a book whatever pleases us, and that is fine and dandy. There is no harm in looking for the positive, for a happy end, simply because life is often not like that.  So we've got to take the bitter with the sweet -nolens volens - willy nilly.

[Laura]

JoanP said:  Even if M. Ozu has the power to read people, don't you think he went a bit far in asking the 12 year old to spy on the concierge?   I mean, really!

Actually, I don’t.  Maybe I read too many Nancy Drew books as a kid, featuring a sleuth who was about 19 going on all sorts of adventures, but I find it in keeping with both Monsieur Ozu’s and Paloma’s characters that he would ask such a thing of her.  If I were a 12 year old girl, intrigued by a new Japanese resident of my building and wondering myself about the concierge, I would be thrilled to get such an assignment.

JoanP asked:  Are you enjoying Manuela's appreciation for M. Ozo's renovations in the new apartment?

I found the section about the pocket doors to be both interesting and true.  I wish I had some pocket door in my house!

[Eloise]

I like to read each version as a stand alone one and I only compare when someone mentions a certain line that is not clear. Otherwise I would spend too much time only comparing when I like to concentrate on the story. Reading the French version I understand their particular biting wit and style and I enjoy it, but I don't wish to go back and forth trying to find a better translation because it is as good as the translator understood. I do quite a bit of translating myself and you have to find words to FIT the context and the intention. The translator has to satisfy the editor too. I think the English version of this book in particular is good because no matter what you say, you can't really get into the mind set of another culture.

I enjoy Renée's rumination of how she perceives high society. If she is caustic most of the time, don't forget that her job is far from rewarding for someone like her, but she chooses to stay there. I am happy that she finally found someone that she likes in her building, Mr. Ozu seems to be well liked by everybody even little Paloma who suddenly doesn't find anything to criticize about him, at last. I was starting to dispair for her to find someone she likes, let it be Mr Ozu then they can become friends and his wisdom will correct the twisted image she has of her entourage. She doesn't need analysis this one, she is just poor little rich kid.

[Babi]

Hardly "love at first sight", STRAUDE.  More, I think, a satisfactory mutual
 recognition of intellectual superiority. 

Paloma: “I am going to say something really banal, but intelligence , in itself, is neither valuable or interesting.”
    I must disagree with our little pre-teen judge, here.  Intelligence is always valuable.  It is not always used, or is used  to no good purpose; that is true enough.   But to say something is wasted is not to say it had no value to begin with.  With intelligence, there is always the possibility of positive change even
in those the child finds so distressing.
  However, I am finding a sister soul in young Paloma.   She feels about trees as I do.  I could never be happy and content living without trees around me.

From the last ch. of this section:  “Television distracts us from the onerous necessity of  finding projects to construct in the vacuity of  our frivolous lives;”    Ouch!  Busted!   I spent too much time in front of a TV, as I’m well aware.  I try to tell myself that I have not led a frivolous life and am now entitled to fritter away my time, but I still have pangs of guilt.  It must be the ghosts of my ancestors, whispering a warning about ’idle hands’
    Funny, but I feel no guilt for all the time I spend reading.  I suppose I feel I am at least  exercising my brain and possibly learning something.   But to what purpose?   Well, I at least get to share some of what I learn here on Seniorlearn.

[JoanP]

  Eloise, I think we are learning there is more to   Renée's job description than lurking in her loge, spying on the tenants, receiving packages and messages for them.  She's mopping the floor, watering the plants, running errands for those who speak to her as if she is incapable of understanding.  Wouldn't the tenants be surprised if they knew just how much she looked down on them!

On several occasions,  she  is surprised to learn that her assessment of others  just might be flawed.  Remember the homeless man, hearing that Mr. Arthens had died, spoke highly of him.  She admitted  that she had assumed  all poor people would be united in their hatred of propertied classes.   (As she herself was?)

"Intelligence is always valuable.  It is not always used, or is used  to no good purpose"

  Babi, I believe Renée would agree with you - and disagree with Paloma on this.  I have to ask you, though - to what good purpose does Renée use her God-given intelligence?  What I'm seeing is criticism of those who have been given all the opportunities to learn...scorn, perhaps.   Paloma goes easier on those "who know neither the enchantment nor the beauty of language" - she says she  pities them.

Busted?    I'm curious to know what  you find to  watch on TV these days, Babi.  Are you talking about daytime TV?  A vast wasteland...give me a book any day!

Are you ready to move on to the Summer Rain chapters in the morning?  Perhaps the two narrators will finally meet, Laura.  Or is there more you would like to talk about in the Grammar chapters?  There is a lot here,  I know, a month doesn't seem long enough for this little book, does it?

[Babi]

JOANP, I would say Renee' basically uses her intelligence to make her life more bearable. She loses herself in her books. 
 As for TV, the only daytime tv I watch is quiz shows like 'Jeopardy' or "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire", to see how many questions I can answer, or re-runs of old classics like "MASH".  In the evenings, I do admit to being partial to the new CSI type shows. I am fascinated by all the things they can do in the labs now.

[JoanP]

Babi - the game shows are fun, aren't they?  I can see you watching "Jeopardy" - I'll bet you do very well with those questions.  There's a new one I like - maybe it's on cable - "Cash Cab"?  I bet you'd like that too!

I agree with you - Renée is using her intelligence to make her OWN life more bearable.  But I don't see her using all that knowledge for any other purpose.  It must be difficult not being able to share what she knows - and feels, with anyone else.  In this, she is just like Paloma, isn't she?

I think we've got to move on - this is only a one month discussion!  There is so much in each of the Grammar chapters - of course we'll welcome any referrals to these chapters for episodes you enjoyed - or to ponder the philosophical thoughts.  There's so much going on with TIME, the present...and movement (the passage of time?) - I want to talk about, but not sure where the author is going with these ideas.  Art for example, Art captures a moment in time - in a frame.  What is the author saying when she says we can enjoy Art only if we understand that our enjoyment is ephemeral...

We get more on Art in the Summer Rain chapters...I'm eager to go on, but hesitant not to overlook anything in the preceding ones.  That's where you come in!

Will the two narrators appear on the same stage  in the Summer Rain chapters?  Or is the author still building the suspense?

[fairanna]

I regret I haven't been able to continue I just read the page of posts and find them interesting I think I am going to copy all the pages and read them later ...Easter sunday a dear companion of nine years left for HOME   for more reasons than I care to tell it was a very sad departure for his family , mine and his friends...his daughter, another friend and myself stayed with him until the end,...I cant do it now but as I said I WILL copy all the posts and take them and read the book to the end according to where you are each time so I can understand how everyone felt After the beginning pages I have been unable to read at all. It will help to pass the hours and although I wont be posting I know your posts will give me help to understand ..

Regardless of why we read,  ( for pleasure. for enlightenment,. for knowledge,  for bragging rights IE Oh yes I did read that book too..) reading is the ultimate joy for me...it gives all I mentioned plus so many more...and I am thankful we have this place to read and discuss what we have read...May you have good days and sweet nights ...always, anna

[Gumtree]

Fairanna{{{{HUGS}}}} It's such a hard thing to lose a good friend. Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

[straudetwo]

Anna:  It is so good to see you here,  and I wanted to tell you so much sooner. 

After all, you and I almost met at the bash in Montreal (how many years ago was it?), organized with such love and care and foresight by our Éloïse. The plan was for you to fly from Virginia to Massachusetts, spend a night or more,  then for us to head together for Montreal in my car with you driving it.  Sadly, I never made it to the fête but you did, I understood, and I was happy for you.

Regardless and in spite of physical limitations we are truly blessed for having this very special, cherished meeting place, and I am deeply grateful to those who made it a reality.

May I now offer my sincere condolences on your recent loss. There are no words to soothe a heavy heart, but loving thoughts and prayers may bring some consolation.

Traude

[JoanP]

Dear, dear Anna,

We all know what you are going through.  Unfortunately we've reached the age when we must  begin to say goodbye to our   oldest friends, our precious friends.  We cannot replace them, we will never forget them.  They live on in memory.  Fortunately, you have the support of your family and your friends who understand.  You know we all care about you. I hope this is some consolation to you.

Listen, Anna, our book discussions are all archived...you don't have to copy the pages of posts.  When you are ready to return to Hedgehog, all you have to do is come here to the main page and scroll down to the Archived discussion.  Also, if you want to talk to someone about the book, you can post in the Library.  We're not going anywhere when the book discussion is over.  We'll be happy to chat with you there.   

Let's begin to discuss the Summer Rain chapters in the morning.  The new tenant has everyone's attention, yet there is no one he seems more interested in than the concierge.  He's invited her to dinner!  Imagine that!  What will she wear?  She's wearing her coveralls.  Her hair is a mess...she wishes she never accepted the invitation.  Why did she accept???

[straudetwo]

JoanP, there is so much "material" in this book  (and we haven't even considered WHY so much of it is even there and for whose benefit). But respectfully I repeat what I said before, we have no choice but immerse ourselves in the story such as it is presented,  in bits and pieces, in the voices of two ridiculously different narrators  -- in other words,  go on and see what develops, how,  and with whom.

I  believe that staying on track is the only key to this book --- simply because it is impossible to follow up on each philosophical,  literary and artistic thread. Even if we had the time, which we do not, we might still arrive at an answer or  solution. Therefore I'd like to suggest that we follow the story to see where the author is leading us. Perhaps we'll discover at the end what (and whose) philosophical wisdom formed the basis for this book.

Babi and Laura, your theories are valid and I agree. it is quite possible that we see parts of the author's personality reflected in the young Paloma and then in Mme. Michel. 

Éloïse, yes, Mme Michel's observations are "caustic", as you said.  I'd go further and  call them 'vitriolic', but why this harshness? How CAN we  overlook the repeated occurrence of the word 'hatred' for people simply because they are rich ??
That is tantamount to an OBSESSION!!!
 
I hold no brief against love at first sight, far be it from me. Bless those to whom it happens.
However, on the basis of what we have read so far,  how good a candidate for love at first sight is Mme. Michel?
She who  steeled herself for decades with an invisible armor against all manifestations of indignities and hostility because of her lowly station in life - to the point where even 'normal' courtesies  have become a source of suspicion, and  kindness a miracle. And ... 

I am sorry, but I cannot see any logic in this extreme behavior : tea in secret, coffee out in the open, among other discordant things. In sum,  the importance of keeping up appearances under any circumstances. 
i cannot  imagine such total self-negation ... words fail me no matter how hard I try.

[JoanP]

Traudee, you are right - there is too much here to follow up every philosophical thread - but we can try to examine those threads the author repeats - thus underlining their significance.   The many references to Tolstoy deserves our attention  - an author  appreciated by both the concierge and the new tenant.  Let's consider this author who is bringing the two together by providing them with talking points, without which I don't think M. Ozu would have shown her much interest at all.  What are the underlying themes in War and Peace - and Anna Karenina?

I'm smiling at the concept of "love at first sight" - which Traudee questions - rightly.  Madame Michel says she's wearing her "semi-retarded concierge uniform."  Eloise, I'd love to hear how Mme. Barbery describes this outfit - and if the translator has been true to what was written.  It appears on the first page of the Summer Rain chapter, Infinitesimal.  She's also making an effort to appear inept.  I'm forced to admit that "love at first sight"  doesn't quite describe what happened here.  Nor were the feelings mutual.  He finds her of interest.  She feels he has seen her as she is - she is the one who shudders involuntarily admitting that perhaps this means that she wants to be found out.  Madame Michel's is the stronger response to their shared moment, don't you think?  He is the one who invites her to dinner.  He must be somewhat interested in her.

[Eloise]

Joan, I am not very surprised that Renée especially loved to read Tolstoy because Russian aristocracy and literature before the Napoleonic war reflected its attachment to the French culture and language. Tolstoy often uses French in his writings, he was an aristocrat. French was spoken at Court as it was in England before the 19th century. Russian and English were the languages of the population but the aristocracy spoke French until they decided to make their respective language one that reflected their culture abandoning anything French that had so viciously betrayed them. After the Napoleonic wars French was no longer in style, no wonder.

Tolstoy and French

I don’t think Mr. Ozu has the same attachment to Tolstoy that Renée has, he would be a man with a broad education and he just wanted to please Renée by offering her that book because he could actually feel how unhappy she was in her persona.

Anna Karénine was almost a French novel, by its values about class and proper behaviour. War and Peace was the novel that broke the attachment that had linked the two cultures. IMO

I don’t think either also that Renée fell in love with Mr. Ozu. He just broke through her concierge persona and that destabilized her. She thought she could put it over everybody in the building, but he immediately put two and two together when he found out her cat’s name was Leo because his own cats were named after characters in a Tolstoy novel and that was what tickled his fancy. Because she shudders when that happens doesn’t mean to me either that she wants to be found out. She is upset because he found her out. Well I don’t know what the author wants us to believe.

Joan in the Grammar chapter under Infinitesimal Renée says in French: “J’ai endossé mon habit de concierge semi-débile” In English it says: “I am wearing my semi-retarded concierge uniform”

In my mind I am reading that Renée is not describing her clothing at all, she is just saying by “endossé” that her demeanour is now one of a concierge. In France most women wear dresses or skirts, I would be very very surprised that Renée would have ever worn pants or a uniform of any kind. She might be wearing an apron and I think she mentioned that once, I am not sure. The translator just didn’t catch the nuance. You can “endosser” a behaviour, not just a piece of clothing.  Another thing she says “endossé mon habit de concierge” well “habit” is a suit, not a uniform.  But lets not dismiss this fine translator, she is doing a good job. I don’t think anyone could have done it better. 

 There are so many “nuances” in this book, the philosophy itself is hard to ‘tackle’ but we do get the drift of it. This novel depicts the French way of thinking, and when I read it in French nothing surprises me about their thinking and when I read it in English I have to make an effort to try and revert to the English way of thinking. I don’t know if I am making myself clear.

[Laura]

“Television distracts us from the onerous necessity of finding projects to construct in the vacuity of our frivolous lives;”
When I read this passage, I thought not only of television, but of video games, and even the internet.  I sometimes feel guilty when watching TV and when reading; then I remember, balance in all things.  Regularly, I watch The Apprentice, Ugly Betty, Oprah, My Name is Earl, and the news.  I like game shows and HGTV too, and Martha Stewart and movies, but don’t watch those regularly.  I am always behind in my TV viewing (thank goodness for TiVO), but rarely behind in my reading. 

Going into the Summer Rain section, I just have to say, “Renee and Paloma still have not met!”  I have decided their meeting must be the climax of the book, coming near the end, leaving us to imagine their new found friendship rather than experiencing it.

Eloise said:  This novel depicts the French way of thinking, and when I read it in French nothing surprises me about their thinking and when I read it in English I have to make an effort to try and revert to the English way of thinking. I don’t know if I am making myself clear.

This statement is fascinating to me.  I studied Spanish for many years, and when I read Shadow of the Wind, translated from Spanish, I could read more into it because I could imagine the original Spanish from what the translator had written in English, usually on the parts translated a bit awkwardly.  Countries do have their own ways of thinking, and I was lucky enough to be able to observe some of a contemporary French peer’s way of thinking when we had my brother-in-law’s cousins from France join us for Thanksgiving --- so interesting to me.  And lack of a language barrier doesn’t make up for the cultural differences either, as we experienced in our time living in England.

I was literally laughing out loud during the first chapters of this section, when Renee is running through excuses in her head, and then speaks out with something unplanned, but true and accurate!  Hilarious!  Thank goodness she had Manuela to help her get ready for her dinner with Monsieur Ozu!

[Babi]

You're so right about that, JOANP. The 'Grammar' section is so full of
things to talk about, I think I have more tags/notes there than anywhere
else in the book.

STRAUDE, perhaps it is an over-simplification to say Ms. Michel hates rich
people just because they are rich. What she hates is seeing people who have
so many possibilities open to them wasting them with inanities and
superfluities. And, of course, assuming a superiority due to position, which
they obviously cannot hold intellectually.

  It is wonderful the difference Mr. Uzo is making in Paloma’s life. “…he looks at me as if to say, “Who are you? Do you want to talk to me? How nice it is to be here with you."   Mr. Uzo has ”this attitude that gives the other person  the impression of  really being there.”    This is a first for Paloma.

I'm really looking forward to starting on the next section. I have so many tags/notes there!  So much to discuss.

[Gumtree]

Eloise -  I am wearing my semi retarded concierge uniform  Your comments concerning Renee's meaning are intriguing as I didn't realise there was any ambiguity in the translation. I agree with your assessment - to me it is clearly a reference to her demeanour and has nothing to do with clothing. The translation makes perfect sense and is almost in the Australian idiom - we might say 'put on' instead of 'wearing' but would certainly use 'uniform' to describe a particular manner or demeanour. One puts on a uniform to meet a particular circumstance or event. In this instance the translator seems to be absolutely correct.

[ALF43]

Where we are right now in our reading is how far I got reading this novel on our trip last week  to Augusta, for the Masters.  I didn't read (which is unusual all of time that we were there) but I had my book in my purse.  When I checked out, I carelessly took the book out of said purse, presented the credit card and said my good byes to the wonderful family that doted on us for 5 days.  By the time I was ready to open my book up again we were almost OUT of Georgia.  I kept searching aimlessly thru the purse as if it would miraculously appear and realized that I had left it on the desk.  I'm telling you I whined like a "little girl" all of the way home over my lapse. 
I called the next morning and asked them to please send it to me COD.   Yesterday the UPS truck driver beeped, handed me the wrapped parcel and told me I needed to remit $25.93.   I almost swallowed my chewing gum. 
WHAT??  I screeched?  the bloody book cost me about ten bucks and i  am not paying that amount of money.  With that he sweetly smiled, shrugged and said "OK ma'am, I will send it back." 
ggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I am not happy about  my blunder and  had to share this with you.  I am following along and appreciate your comments SANS book in hand.

[straudetwo]

Oh my, Andrea, what a bummer ! But I understand how this can happen. Believe it or not, at this very moment I cannot find my Hedgehog   I had domestic help yesterday and that's when the book disappeared.  I have been looking for it ever since - so far no luck.

I wanted to get back to the Grammar section because of something I had brought up too early before we actually had arrived at the precise spot.  But I have yet to find the book.  We are fortunate that Éloïse has been good enough to quote the original text when we asked about possible discrepancies in the English translation - and with good reason, as it turns out. 
Now, however, we must take delight in Renée's "coming out", so to speak.

BTW, it's interesting how differently we interpret what we read. It id not occur to me that Mr. Ozu was really asking Paloma to "spy on" Mme. Michel.   I thought it was a friendly joshing remark, with a wink perhaps,  "asking something likme "Is there more than meets the eye?  Could she be one of US?"

But Paloma had already started to doubt the masquerade.  She caught sight of a bookthat tumbled out of Mr. Michel's  grocery bag, which the boy Pallières had knocked over. Paloma recognized it as one of a series her sister Colombe was studying and was moved to think "Now what on God's earth does a mere concierge do with a book like that?"
Actually, I fid the thought patronizing and, frankly, appalling.

[JoanP]

We are on the road this weekend - beautiful weather in Charleston, South Carolina - everything in bloom, trees draped in Spanish moss!  Will be home tonight and can pay closer attention to your posts.

I really hope we can talk a bit more about Tolstoy - the writer who has sparked the connection between M. Ozu and Madame la Concierge.  I understand that she has fallen in love with the romance of the Russian writers...but not so certain about his interest in the  Russian author.

What do we know about Mr. Ozu?  His background?  About Japanese education?   Eloise,  you don't think he is  quite as enthralled with the Russian writer, but is just trying to please Madame Michel, realizing that she is familiar Anna Karenina.  I sense it was more than that - he could quote the opening lines!  He named his two cats...
I think the author has chosen Tolstoy for another reason to emphasize her main theme -  

Eloise points out that Tolstoy was an aristocrat...yes, and he was  also a friend of Victor Hugo (Les Miserables) when living in France - he describes love between aristocrats and Cossacks...the falsities of society - landowners working along side of peasants... and there's more...
about his attempts to educate  the poor  when he returned to Russia...

Bruce wants to get on the road - the sun isn't up yet, I haven't had breakfast, but oh have I had enough to eat of Charleston's delicious, but filling Low Country cuisine!  I wanted to comment about the "date" -
Laura - I was laughing out loud too.  Didn't it remind you of your first school dance?  You wanted to go, but dreaded it at the same time.  Manuela really came through, didn't she?  I really don't think Renee could have gone through with it without her help!\

Bruce is pulling the plug on my laptop - must go.  See you tonight~

I must be sure to pack Hedgehog (I lost my first copy)- Andy, I can just see the look on the faces of the people you stayed with in GA who shipped your package!!!

[ALF43]

Joan - when the book  is returned to them, I wonder if they will have to pay the charge to get it back.  Man, this book turned out to be a million dollar best seller in more than one way.  I am off to Captiva tomorrow for 4 days to play in the sun with my 2 granddaughters and sip  awine with my eldest.

Be safe in your travels.

[Eloise]

Awe Andy I’m sorry and we are in the middle of the book, can you get a copy at the library perhaps? Well not if you are off on another jaunt with your grand daughters. Have fun out there.

Joan, have a good time today in your beautiful area. We are just starting here, but I am not complaining, it’s sunny at least.

Remember that Madame Michel was quoting Karl Marx, I wonder if this was not some sort of foreshadowing that in fact she had socialist political leanings like so many intellectuals, writers and philosophers who seek social justice.?

« Je suis laid, gauche, malpropre et sans vernis mondain. Je suis irritable, désagréable pour les autres, prétentieux, intolérant et timide comme un enfant. Je suis ignorant. Ce que je sais, je l'ai appris par-ci, par-là, sans suite et encore si peu ! [...] Mais il y a une chose que j'aime plus que le bien : c'est la gloire. Je suis si ambitieux que s'il me fallait choisir entre la gloire et la vertu, je crois bien que je choisirais la première. »
    — Journal, 7 juillet 1854

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on_Tolsto%C3%AF

This is what Tolstoy says about himself :

I am ugly, awkward, dirty and without social grace. I am irritable, disagreeable to others, pretentious, intolerant and shy like a child. I am ignorant. What I know, I learned here and there without guidance and then so little!... But there is one thing that I love more than to do good… it is glory. I am so ambitious that if I had to choose between glory and virtue, I think that I would choose the first one.
Is that why Renée loves Tolstoy?

What do you think about Paloma's meeting with her mother's therapist? Is this what a 12 year old would be able to pull off I wonder?

[Laura]

I had not even considered why the author would have chosen Tolstoy as the author that initially draws Renee and Monsieur Ozu together!  I would have missed an important piece of the book had this not been brought up.  I think they meet “over” Tolstoy because a major theme of his books, Anna Karenina and War and Peace, was class differences.  In Anna Karenina, we saw Levin working along side his muzaks (I hope that is what they were called) and discussing how to make them more involved in the success of the crops.  In War and Peace, we saw the upper classes far removed from much of Russia, speaking French nonetheless, yet they, too, ended up being affected by the war, especially Pierre.

[Babi]

"Now what on God's earth does a mere concierge do with a book like that?"

  I think the key word here was "mere", STRAUDE. Paloma was expressing a
doubt that Mme. Michel was a 'mere' concierge, ie., the person she has been pretending to be all along.

Excellent point, LAURA. I would not have thought of that at all, if you
had not pointed it out. It does make sense.

Paloma explains what happened to her, listening to the school choir,  when all troubles seem to disappear.  “Everyday life vanishes into song, you are suddenly overcome with a feeling of brotherhood,  of deep solidarity, even love,  and it diffuses the ugliness of everyday life into a spirit of perfect communion.”

Then, Paloma in  PT # 12    “…teenagers think they’re adults when in fact they’re imitating adults who never really made it into adulthood. and who are running away from life.”    
   It has always seemed to me that teenagers do think they are adults, but believe themselves quite different from the adults around them. More ‘modern’ in their thinking, unfettered by outmoded and silly social mores,.. or so they see themselves.
  Paloma is quite intelligent, and like Renee', reads widely.  I think it quite possible she could have flummoxed someone like her mother's 'therapist',
who is obviously less intelligent than the 12-year-old in front of him.

[JoanK]

Question: how much would Renee have been like Paloma at the age of 12?

[straudetwo]

That, JoanK, is an electrifying question. 
I was all set to blurt out an instant impetuous answer - then  I thought I had better contain myself a little longer.

[straudetwo]

Re the questions.
1. I believe "naked" is not meant in the literal sense of the word.
"Found out" by a compassionate man, a kindred soul, without the cloak and armor of her  concierge's acoutrements,  deprived of her presumed "invisibility",   Renée felt unprotected

2. Doubtless the love story between Anna Karenina and Count Vronsky.

3. All along Manuela has been the realist, the one with the practical sense - and with an actual plane for the future !!!
In none of her musings has  R. given any thought  to HER future.

4. Underneath her self-righteousness and despite her scathing criticism of the world she lives in, Paloma has a compassionate, soft core - and how could she not?   She is experiencing an emotional awakening similar to Renée's.  This is another of the [b[parallel development[/b] of the narrators I had alluded to before.

It seems that Paloma buries her nose in her school books and in her two journals, both carefully hidden at all times. She shares meals with the family,  is present when company is there. But does not talk much at home. That's why Maman takes her to the psychiatrist in the hope that HE will get her to talk. But the plan back-fires. Paloma calls the doc's bluff and wins the day.  Now that's reason to applaud.

JoanP, I hope you are enjoying a most wonderful day. I remember Williamsburg,  VA and also Morehead City N.C.
at this time of year; and  I treasure the memories. 

[JoanR]

Sorry that I haven't been posting but I have been finding everyone's posts so illuminating in respect to some of the text that I may have glossed over too rapidly back when I first read this book in the fall.  This has been a wonderful discussion of a wonderful book!
There is one little thing I could add, though:

I had heard of Mr. Ozu, the Japanese film director, before and wondered at the coincidence of the names.  Is it on purpose or just a coicidence, do you think?  We watched his film Equinox Flower last night and plan to see the other 3 films that our library owns.  I can't believe that  Ms Barbery does anything accidentally!

The other little tidbit :  When among the definitions of "conatus" I found "a vital force in plants or animals similar to human effort" there was also this quotation:" What conatus could give prickles to the porcupine or hedgehog?" - Paley!!  Note the HEDGEHOG!  Wow!

[JoanP]

We're home...after a nine hour drive - just in time to start dinner ready!   Had we been any later, we would have eaten on the road.  Better luck next time!

Look who's here!  JoanR, it is so wonderful to see you here.  Wow!  ANother Hedgehog reference!  They seem to be popping up all over since we've begun.  That is definitely a coincidence!  We'll have to add it to our glossary.

I've been wondering about the "coincidence" of the Ozu names too.  Surely it will be explained before we reach the end of the book?  Right now, it is enough to know that Renée loves the Yasujirō Ozu's films...especially "The Flavor of Green Tea over Rice" - and of course,  the "The Makioka Sisters" (I'm not sure of the spelling) - the one with the camellia in the moss.  I still need help understanding the significance of the camellia here - but still trying.  I can see it is important from the many references.  So far  - it stands for BEAUTY.  And that Renée is the camillia, hidden in moss?  Can anyone add to this?


There's are so many wonderful points, made here today - I reread the Summer Rain chapters again coming home - and made a few edits to the discussion questions in the header.  Where's Jude?  I noticed that in the last question, Solange Josse's "doctor" was referred to as a "psychiatrist" - after your careful explanation of the difference.  Please excuse - I thought that had been changed, but apparently not.  It's fixed now - that's all that counts.  I hope you will comment on that episode. Imagine the effect on that young girl! 

Eloise, I agree, Paloma is unlike any 12 year old I've ever met.  I would have sat up and noticed, had I been the analyst.  I would have moved!
I don't think that Renée was as precocious as this child at age 12, JoanK...though I think they were alike in that they were both voracious readers, both went  out of their way to hide their intelligence.  Both in hiding, but oh, wasn't Renée so much more alone in her camouflage. Would you call Paloma "shy"?

Weren't you shocked to read that she (Paloma)  has a close friend - has had her for the last two years?  I don't know about you - but this new information is incongruous with the image I was forming of Paloma up until this chapter.

Need to get dinner - can't wait to get back!

[straudetwo]

It was I who made the erroneous reference to psychiatrist. Mea culpa. My bad - as one says now.

Obviously the man was a psychoanalyst, as explained.   Whatever his qualifications,  Solange Josse trusted him and took the pills he so very liberally prescribed.  We are never told whether there any real need for them. Good thing Solange failed to count them! 

But when the family cornered Paloma, she told them 'she as hearing voices',  and THAT'S when Maman sprang into action and made the appointment. When Paloma tried to take it all back, they didn't believe her.  But she came out the winner in the end. 

 

[JudeS]

The Child and the  Psychoanalyst

In response to some of your remarks-

Psychoanalysts CANNOT prescribe medications or anything else. Please check my former posts.  He is not a Medical Doctor! The medication is from a General  Practitioner (MD) or a Psychiatrist who the Mother sees in tandem with the Psychoanalyst.

The author is really making fun of the Psychoanalyst who has to be the biggest Booby of the century.  Any Professional who is put upon and threatened by a twelve year old child (No matter how smart she thinks she is) should go out of business.

The whole scenario should be in a comic book and not in this pseudo serious novel.

Has anyone checked if Anna Kerinina really starts with the famous saying about happy families?  I have not checked but somehow I remember it is the preamble to another novel  by Tolstoy.  However it was very nice of Mr Ozu to give Renee this opening.  I have been so overjoyed that he has joined this unhappy group of people that I have no desire to find any fault with him. The Messiah has arrived and he hopefully, will save everyone from their tormented lives.
   
He is the perfect Prince Charming and his Vietnamese Aide adds to this aura of perfection.  I can happily read on  now without thinking , 'What tortuous miseries does the author hold in store for me' on the next page.
Mr Ozu's charm, good taste, sensitivity and charm have left me feeling as though I have been fed after a long winter of starvation. Here is the Deux Ex Machina and he is sweet, smart , rich and sensitive.  He will bring our protagonists together  and will  bring light to the darkness of their existence.

Mr. Ozu-:"You are long overdo!"

[JoanP]

Hey Juuuuude!  Good to hear from you! I was afraid you felt ignored when I saw the "psychiatrist" in the last question.  It was an oversight that didn't get corrected when the new set of questions came out. See, it wasn't you, Traudee...

I went right to Chapter I of Anna K. - to double check the first lines...and yes, there they are -

"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

Do you suppose this relates to  Paloma and to Renée's families growing up, both unhappy, but unhappy in their own way?
Laura - I'm thinking of the title of these chapters - "Summer Rain" - connecting the refreshing rain that fell on Levin scything in the fields in the summer sun, are you?   
(One of my frivolous pasttimes is  watching the HGTV programs, too.  Especially trying to figure out which home the househunters will choose...)

Eloise! That is a fantastic find - Tolstoy's description of himself.  The physical description is right on - and the lack of social graces too.  I am not so sure that Renée loves glory, or  that she is ambitious - or even that she loves to do good.    What do you all think?

Babi - I was struck by Paloma's emotion listening to the school choir. (At first I thought she had  joined the choir!)  Actually, the whole rowdy group of adolescents seemed to succumb to the music - "with solidarity"-  as long as the singing continued!   That emotion - plus the fact that Paloma has a close friend  were the two Paloma surprises for me in this chapter.

Tomorrow is another day - I am really enjoying this, challenging though it is! - Hope you are too...

[Gumtree]

Sorry I've not been posting much. I am spending an inordinate amount of time sitting in hospital waiting areas  and specialist's rooms whilst my Beloved One undergoes tests, screens, scans, biopsies etc.  Not all results have been clear so now there are treatments. Happily the immediate prognosis is positive. But the upshot of this is that my mind has turned to jelly and to concentrate on reading is difficult - though I am getting a lot of knitting done. 

That said, I am enjoying the posts - it's wonderful what each of us sees in this complex book which others may overlook and vice versa. Each short chapter is brimming with ideas and discussion points - too many to do justice to in just a month.

JoanP : The repeated mention of camellias and moss is intriguing. Somewhere Renee likens herself to the 'camellia on the moss' - so does she see herself as a fallen flower  - one that is past its best and just lying on the ground among the dross of life?



 

The other little tidbit :  When among the definitions of "conatus" I found "a vital force in plants or animals similar to human effort" there was also this quotation:" What conatus could give prickles to the porcupine or hedgehog?" - Paley!!  Note the HEDGEHOG!  Wow!

JoanR : your comment sent me to look up conatus again - The online dictionary in the header gives this:

Conatus - A natural tendency inherent in a body to develop itself - and adds the quotation you mention.

If we put those together it would be : What conatus (or, natural tendency inherent in a body to develop itself) could give prickles to the porcupine or hedgehog, or to the sheep its fleece.

Such a natural tendency would appear to be as basic as 'self preservation' - in the Porcupine, Hedgehog (and the Australian Echidna) the self preservation manifests itself as prickles or spiny growths as armour against predators, in sheep it is wool as protection from cold, and in our friends Renee and Paloma there is the facade they have built against intrusion into their own private world of the mind. Both of our characters are attempting to preserve their inner self - seemingly at all costs.

Is there a natural tendency or 'conatus' in us all to cloak our real being from the world  - at least in part. I don't think anyone reveals all of themselves to everyone - we seem to need a facade to protect the soft inner core. Maybe we are only completely revealed to the 'significant other' we choose. Renee revealed herself to Lucien at least so far as reading openly goes, but whether he appreciated her mind is debatable.

I don't think it is 'love at first sight' between Mr. Ozu and Renee but am still of the opinion that they are simply kindred spirits - it takes one to know one - Mr Ozu is a cultured man and Renee has a cultured mind - in that respect they recognise one another and meet as equals. Mr Ozu also recognises the potential in Paloma and treats her as an equal - this hasn't happened to her before so no wonder she is under his spell.

I was curious as to why Madame Josse allowed Paloma to visit Mr Ozu alone.  Would you allow your 12 year old daughter to visit a newcomer before you have even been inside his apartment...? He may be very rich and charming but he is an unknown to the Josse family and Paloma is a very young girl. All my maternal alarm bells would be ringing out loud.

[Babi]

Question: how much would Renee have been like Paloma at the age of 12?

   Not very like at all, I would think.  Paloma has enormous self-confidence
and self-esteem. Renee'would have had almost none. Both are solitary and
secretive, but for very different reasons. Paloma is solitary out of scorn
for those around her. Renee' would have kept a low profile from fear of being
hurt, like her sister. The whole outlook of the two is so very different.

In none of her musings has  R. given any thought  to HER future

.
 True, STRAUDE. Renee' simply assumes that her life will always be
just as it is now. When you have been living the same way for...what?..38 years?...I suppose you take it for granted.

JOANP, I agree the camellia does stand for beauty, but more significantly,
beauty in the midst of all the harshness. Bits of beauty...a camellia on a mossy
stone wall...that spark a moment of pleasure and joy despite all the grayness
of life.

The Messiah has arrived and he hopefully, will save everyone from their
tormented lives. He is the perfect Prince Charming and his Vietnamese Aide
adds to this aura of perfection.

   JUDE, what a perfect characterization for Mr. Uzo.  He is indeed the
'deux ex machina', and how wonderfully he fits the role.

 The introduction of Marguerite is somewhat surprising.  Can anyone explain for me Marguerite’s retort to Colombe when the latter patronized her name as belonging to their grandmothers generation?  “And is your other name Christophe?”    From the italicized ‘your’,  I assume Marguerite’s other name is Christophe, and this is supposd to be a stunner.

I'm sorry to hear of your trouble, GUMTREE. I'm glad to hear the prognosis is positive.

[Gumtree]

Thanks Babi - and is your other name Christophe
Initially I took this to be a literary reference to Romain Rollande's great novel Jean-Christophe but on second thoughts think Marguerite is making a sarcastic remark meaning that Colombe was acting like Christopher Colombus - discovering the world. I didn't consider that Marguerite's second name could be Christophe. - I daresay someone will know.