Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society. The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 4   Feb.2-Feb.11     Feb.2 - Feb.8}       Chapter 31. A Passive Coquette       Chapter 32. Coming Events       Chapter 33. Brightening Prospects       Chapter 34. A Lover's Mistake       Chapter 35. The Mother's Manoeuvre       Chapter 36. Domestic Diplomacy       Chapter 37. A Fluke, And What Came Of It   Feb. 9-11}       Chapter 38. Mr Kirkpatrick, Q.C.       Chapter 39  Secret Thoughts Ooze Out         Chapter 40. Molly Gibson Breathes Freely

Some Things to Think About

Feb. 9-11 Chapters XXXVIII-XL ~ (to Mrs. Gibson's return from London)

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XXXVIII.     Mr Kirkpatrick, Q.C
     A new character!  Why is he introduced now?  Why Mr. Kirkpatrick's sudden interest in his niece?   
     Why does Cynthia not want to visit with his family in London?
     Molly, this awkward at 18, breaking teacups, etc?  Is this how you've been seeing her?
     Can you cite some examples of Mrs. Gaskell's humor in this chapter?
    
CHAPTER XXXIX.   Secret Thoughts Ooze Out    
     Whose opinion do you trust more, Dr. Gibson's, or Dr. Nicholl's?  
     Why? Does Molly fear that Osborne is deathly ill?
     How do Molly and Mrs. Gibson's concerns differ concerning Osborne's health?
      Now the squire knows of Roger's engagement and has met Cynthia, what does he think of her?  
      Would he feel differently if he knew Osborne was ill?

CHAPTER XL  Molly Gibson Breathes Freely
      With Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia off to London, do you feel you get to know Molly better?
      Is Cynthia's goodness what Roger loves about her?
      Would his feelings for her would change, no matter how terrible her secret?
      Does Cynthia appear to be blaming her mother for her own past behavior?
      Does it occur to Molly that it was Cynthia in the lane with Mr. Preston?
 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln,  
PatH,  ADOANNIE

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,  pg. 468 "Cynthia, what makes you dislike Mr. Preston so much?"  "Don't you?  Why do you ask me?, and yet, Molly, "said she, suddenly relaxing into depression, not merely in tone and look, but in the droop of her limbs_ "Molly, what should you think of me if I married him after all?"

"Married him!  Has he ever asked you?"  But Cynthia, instead of of replying to this question, went on, uttering her own thoughts.  "More unlikely things have happened.  Have you never heard of strong wills mesmerizing weaker ones into submission?  One of the girls of Madame Lefebre's went out as a governess to a Russian family, who lived near Moscow.  I sometimes think I'll write to her to find me a situation in Russia, just to get out of the daily chance of seeing that awful man!"

"But sometimes you seem quite intimate with him, and talk to him__"  "How can I help it?"  said Cynthia, impatiently.  Then recovering herself, she added: "We knew him so well at Ashcombe, and he's not a man to be easily thrown off, I can tell you.  I must be civil to him; it's not from liking, and he knows it is not, for I've told him so.  However, we won't talk about him.  I don't know how we came to do it, I'm sure: the mere fact of his existence, and of his being within half a mile of us, is bad enough.  Oh!  I wish Roger was at home, and rich, and could marry me at once, and carry me away from that man!  If I'd though of it, I really believe I would have taken poor red-haired Mr. Coxe."

"I don't understan it at all,"  said Molly.  "I dislike Mr. Preston, but I should never think of taking such violent steps as you speak of, to get away from the neighborhood in which he lives."  "No, because you are reasonable little darling,"  said Cynthia, resuming her usual manner, and coming up to Molly, and kissing her.  "At least you'll acknowledge I'm a good hater!"  "Yes.  But I don't understand it."

"Oh, never mind! There are old complications with our affairs at Ashcombe.  Money matters are at the root of it all.  Horrid poverty_ do let us talk of something else!"

#4. Cynthia says: “or some one else may turn up and say I’m engaged to him”.  What’s that about?

So, I am assuming that Clare has promised Cynthia to Preston, for what ever money matters he helped her out with at Ashcombe.  Preston is aware of the fact Cynthia does not like him, yet he is holding her to the contract, Clare and he obviously made.  IMO

Yes, Cynthia wants the engagement to be a secret to keep Preston from finding out.  And as you can see, I believe Cynthia would rush and marry before Preston could know of it, to put a stop it.  My first suspicion, was when Molly told Preston that Cynthia was coming home, and he assumed she would be living at Ashcombe.  WHY would he assume that, knowing Clare was married to Mr. Gibson?  That always puzzled me.  But Mrs. Gaskell drops crumbs along the way, we just have to be alert to them, because some are very subtle.

Ciao for now~

p.s. We are once again getting hit with at least a foot of snow here in Toledo, Ohio.  Level 3 snow emergency, so NO daycare kids for me today!  I can't read ahead in the book, so how will I enjoy an unexpected day off to myself?

[PatH]

Poor red-headed Mr. Coxe

What's wrong with red-headed men, anyway?  It's comic in Mr. Coxe, but Clare and Cynthia are both red heads, and in them it's thought of as attractive.

[Lucylibr]

Why is Molly so unhappy?

"...independently of any private sorrow that she might have in her own heart," she is aware of the discord between her father and his new wife. At times she had been glad that he was happy, and other times she wished his eyes were open to his wife's defects of character.  But now that her shortcomings and serious violations of trust are known to him, he is "sarcastic, hard, even bitter in his speeches and ways" with his wife, sometimes with Cynthia, and even occasionally Molly.  This makes for unpleasantness in the home which Molly is very sensitive to.

She is so sensitive and caring of other people, at times she feels sorry for Mrs. Gibson and in secret takes her stepmother's part. Such treatment would devastate Molly, but Clare is somewhat deaf to it and glosses over it with the offer of a special meal and a nod to his feeling a "little put-out today."  And she knows that there is no chance of her stepmother changing, "so the only attempt at a remedy was to think about it as little as possible."

Molly is distressed by Cynthia's careless disregard and indifference for Roger, shown by her not being concerned that she is too late for sending mail to him that day. She simply does not think Cynthia cares enough for him, and if she had been in Cynthia's place, her love for him would have been full of tenderness and gratitude for everything he shared with her. Molly is anxious to get from Cynthia news and details of what he is doing. Cynthia is not sure where Abyssinia is nor can she make out the next word describing his location. She is sure Roger is recovered from a fever without nursing, having brought quinine with him. She is determined not to "worry myself with useless anxiety, when he is away." It will be too late anyway if she were to hear anything dire about his state. Says Cynthia, "Lovers' letters are so silly, and I think this is sillier than usual."
And even Roger said once that he knew his infatuation with Cynthia was "folly." I think we will see this theme delveloped in favor of a more lasting and mature kind of love. But Molly is haunted by thoughts of Roger lying ill and alone in strange lands and treasures his comments about books and would love to hear about his research and travels I think.

Mrs. Gaskell remains concerned about matters of health and uses them to support her portrayal of characters and events.  She reminds us that in addition to these reasons for Molly's low spirits, she "was not of strong health, and perhaps that made her a little fanciful." She sobs herself to sleep thinking of Roger. When a person is unhappy, you can always say they are ill, but maybe they are unhappy because they are ill. Ill health can account for and is simultaneous with negative states of mind.

[bellamarie]

Molly genuinely cares for others well being and happiness.  She has a heart of gold.  She sees people's flaws and yet wants to hope the better part of the person will prevail.  I see these young people being depressed, because emotionally, they are living in situations which do not make them happy, yet they live to please the elders, or because they are at a point, where they feel they are unable to make their lives better, for what ever the circumstances are.  Osborne is not helping himself sitting and brooding, Cynthia is bound to a secret with Preston, Molly is keeping others secrets, and is in denial of her true love for Roger, the squire feels everything crashing down upon him since Mrs. Hamley has died, and Mr. Gibson is overwhelmed with all the female hormones in his home!!! Clare reminds me of Scarlet O'Hara....I'll think about that tomorrow attitude.  Mama Mia!  It's about time this story takes a turn to help all these people get their lives back on track and be happy.

Unhappiness leads to stress, and vice versa, which can bring about many types of real medical conditions.  

[Jonathan]

"hoping that “Molly would not be such a goose as to lend a willing ear to a youth who could never remember the difference between apophysis and epiphysis.”

Molly might just be a little goose. Wasn't 'Goosey' her father's term of endearment for her as a child? And what high standard of conduct did he ever pass on to Molly? He left that to others,  to Betty, the frightful dragon. And now to her stepmother.

I don't know if I can agree with you, Bellamarie, when you say: "Molly genuinely cares for others well being and happiness." That was a bit of advice she got from Roger, early on, to help her over a little problem she was having with her father's engagement to Clare. He seemed so wise. Wasn't there something about making a Pope out of him.

What a wonderful contrast in personality and character, between Molly and Cynthia. Early in the Passive Coquette chapter:

'Molly was always gentle, but very grave and silent. Cynthia, on the contrary, was merry, full of pretty mockeries, and hardly ever silent...could never hold her tongue, too pretty, too witty, welcomed by those who were under her sway.'

The young men all fall for her. She has difficulties handling all the marriage proposals. And Molly? Perhaps the chapter should have been The Goose and the Coquette. The coquette has no heart to be broken. And the goose really knows nothing about love.

I'm not sure either, that Clare's use of confidential information was a serious violation of trust. The girls need husbands. She wants the best for both. The health of someone could be a significant factor. It never occurred to me that those governesses in Russia were running away from something.

[PatH]

It is indeed a wonderful contrast between the two girls.  It's interesting that they can be such good friends.  Cynthia loves Molly as much as she is capable of, and Molly loves Cynthia back.

There is evidence that Molly cared for others before Roger's advice, even if not consciously.  Look at the way she has learned to read her father's moods like a book, and her care to be sure he has a meal, with company, when he comes home at odd hours.

One part of Molly's unhappiness that she isn't admitting to herself is how deeply she has fallen for Roger.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,   

I'm not sure either, that Clare's use of confidential information was a serious violation of trust. The girls need husbands.

Regardless, of Clare's reasons, she violated her husband's trust, not only because it is his confidential profession, but a husband should be able to trust his wife would never violate his privacy, in such a way she did.  She has no scruples. Whether the readers see it a serious violation, or not, Gaskell has made it clear, Mr. Gibson sees it as one.  I never cared much for, "The ends, justifies the means."

Jonathon,

I don't know if I can agree with you, Bellamarie, when you say: "Molly genuinely cares for others well being and happiness." That was a bit of advice she got from Roger, early on, to help her over a little problem she was having with her father's engagement to Clare. He seemed so wise. Wasn't there something about making a Pope out of him

I have no doubt Molly has a heart of gold.  She cared for Mrs. Hamley as if she were her own daughter, before she ever met Roger.  She has supported Osborne with his secret, she is a great friend to Roger, not allowing his parents attitudes sway her judgement of him, she is a loving sister to Cynthia, and even tries her best to be caring for a very difficult step mother. 

And yes, PatH.,

There is evidence that Molly cared for others before Roger's advice, even if not consciously.  Look at the way she has learned to read her father's moods like a book, and her care to be sure he has a meal, with company, when he comes home at odd hours.

Molly has a genuine heart, and everyone that has met her has commented on what a good caring, person she is.  Compliments from the Lord himself after dancing with her, is a testament to Molly's character, and caring heart for others.  She is sick, over concern for Roger getting sick, in a far off land, over and beyond the fact that she truly loves him.  Roger gave Molly advice as to how to deal with her father getting married, and the fact that she even took his advice, shows how caring she is.  She could have been selfish and ignored him. She stays quiet watching her father's unhappiness, being married to Clare, even though it breaks her heart.  She longs for her father's attention, his nickname "goosey" and his hugs.  Even though he has turned a bit unfeeling after marrying Clare, Molly, does not do anything to draw him to notice her loneliness, for their lost times as father and daughter.  She even is kind enough to accept her father cares enough for Cynthia, to takes the time to have that talk he had with Cynthia.  Yes, he has passed on strong values to Molly, which shows he is also a very kind and caring person, who has done a great job teaching his daughter these values, without a mother around. Him being a physician, caring for sick people, and also taking apprentices in to help them learn the profession, have been great examples for Molly to see and learn by, without words spoken.  They are not perfect, but they both are genuine, kind, caring and want happiness for others. 

Gaskell up to this point in the book has done nothing, but show how caring Molly is for others, even above her own happiness.

Ciao for now~ 

[JoanP]

Isn't this a great psychological study of Molly - and the development of her character from the beginning?  I agree with you - she has always always a trusting child, eager to please her father - whose life was dedicated to her care and happiness..  She'd never come into contact with people like Clare - or Cynthia, whose motives are not always what they seem.  This is a gradual realization for Molly. No wonder Cynthia is more knowing, more precocious.  Look at the difference in the way the two girls have been brought up.

"One part of Molly's unhappiness that she isn't admitting to herself is how deeply she has fallen for Roger."

Oh yes, Pat!  Roger is her friend - Cynthia is her sister and her friend - (does she have any others her own age?) ...her friends are engaged to one another!  How can she admit her feelings for Roger?  Right now it seems the reason for her unhappiness is the way Cynthia is talking and behaving. Does Cynthia love Roger enough?  . Molly is not yet admitting her own feelings for Roger - she is too concerned about his getting hurt.

Did you think it a bit odd that she has no other suitors...other than that red haired Mr. Coxe?  The good doctor doesn't want to think about such things...she's still his little girl, his little goose..  Remember how the story began?

[Jonathan]

'Isn't this a great psychological study of Molly?' It certainly is, JoanP. And what a lot of evidence Bellamarie has come up with to make a case for it. It's all true. Nevertheless, I can't entirely agree with PatH's suggestion: 'One part of Molly's unhappiness is that she isn't admitting to herself is how deeply she has fallen for Roger.'

I'm convinced that her unhappiness is her sisterly concern for Roger's happiness and nothing more. Roger is her 'brother'. She's the daughter and sister in the Hamley family. As for romantic love, it was my impression that Molly had a crush on Osborne at first. The handsome man, the poet, and the darling son of Mrs Hamley. What Molly kept hearing from Osborne's mother must have influenced her. And now, with the narrator influencing her readers, how can we help pairing Molly and Roger.

But it's a great psychological study of the other characters as well. Certainly of Cynthia and her mother. How can one read chapter 35, The Mother's Manoevre, and not feel sorry for Clare? Her violation of her husband's trust is matched by his violation of her confidence. How pathetic he seems when he admits to the squire that he was never home to see what was happening between Roger and the girls. I believe Mr Gibson's bad humor and disappointment was that Roger hadn't picked Molly. The plot thickens. Molly is still a darling little goose, with a lot to learn.

[Jonathan]

The violation of trust accusation really turns Clare on. Using overheard conversation to her daughter's advantage is very motherly. She even comes up with a bit of choice medical knowledge for her husband the doctor:

'Perhaps Cynthia might have died if she had been crossed in love; her poor father was consumptive.'

The doctor is skeptical.

'Poor dear Mr Kirkpatrick was consumptive, and Cynthia may have inherited it, and a great sorrow might bring out the latent seeds.'

The note at the back of my book says this: 'the latent seeds: Mrs Gibson, though here being fatuous, would have medical support: tuberculosis often ran in families, and William Buchan noted  among its causes 'Violent passions...or afflictions of the mind; as grief, disappointment, anxiety' (Domestic Medicine).

I can't stop laughing at Clare's motherly instincts and resources. We wouldn't want the daughter to let her down, would we? That's possible, with Cynthia.

[Jonathan]

But as a wife, she leaves much to be desired?

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, 

How pathetic he seems when he admits to the squire that he was never home to see what was happening between Roger and the girls. I believe Mr Gibson's bad humor and disappointment was that Roger hadn't picked Molly. The plot thickens. Molly is still a darling little goose, with a lot to learn.

I have to say I think you are being a bit hard on Mr. Gibson.  I come from a family of six girls, and one brother, with two female cousins taken in to live with us when my aunt and uncle died.  My step father would not have known the least bit of any of our crushes, infatuations or love interests, no matter how much time he was at home.  Most fathers do not realize these things, because girls don't share their intimate feelings for boys, with their fathers, if at all, it is their mother who notices and maybe discusses these type of things with their daughters.  My sisters, cousins and I, all tried to hide these things from our parents, and discussed them behind closed doors in our bedrooms, just as Molly and Cynthia do. So Mr. Gibson not knowing did not seem the least bit out of the ordinary to me.  My husband is the most loving, caring, active father any one could ever wish for, and he didn't have a clue, when our only daughter had crushes etc.  She and I were extremely close, and I taught at her school, so I was more aware of things pertaining to who she liked. Although her cousin, who was her best friend, knew all her secrets, she confided in her far more than me. 

I think Molly is coming to the realization she cares more for Roger than just a sister, and knowing he could get sick and die, and she may never get to see him again, is causing her enormous stress.  She was infatuated with the Osborne, Mrs. Hamley had painted to her.  After meeting him, and getting to know him, she cares for his well being and happiness, but never did I get the impression she was even close to being "in love" with Osborne.  This love Molly is experiencing for Roger has grown, with her maturing, and realizing Cynthia does not love Roger, and is not worthy to marry him.  Molly wants Roger to have someone who will love, and cherish him with all their heart, and she is realizing she could be that very person.

I expect Cynthia will indeed disappoint her mother, which will prove all the manipulations and rudeness Clare has engaged in, will be for naught.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

" My sisters, cousins and I, all tried to hide these things from our parents, and discussed them behind closed doors in our bedrooms, just as Molly and Cynthia do "

Bella, I would agree, except  Molly has no crush to confide, and Cynthia keeps her feelings to herself, much to Molly's frustration.  

As to Cynthia's closeness to her own mother, have you noticed that Mrs. Gaskell never lets us in on conversations between these two.  If Clare and Cynthia are in on the secret, when - where do they talk about it? This is not a very big house.  Do you think they even discuss personal matters for fear of being overheard?

When they do speak in Molly's presence, they seem to speak in a code only they understand...the way they danced around the visit to Hamley Hall, an example?  What did you make of that?  Cynthia doesn't want to talk to the Squire about the engagement...but Clare?

Let's not be too quick to say Mr. Gibson doesn't know what's going on under his own roof.  He notices Cynthia's reticence to visit the squire, which prompts him to  ask Molly if Cynthia is worthy of Roger. He's also concerned there might be something between Molly and Osborne.  

[bellamarie]

I meant to show that girls of their age do most of their conversations in their bedrooms with each other, rather in the open for their parents to know their inner thoughts.  Cynthia has shared so very many inner feelings with Molly in their private rooms.  Mr. Gibson seemed to become aware of the girls matters more so, once the squire mentions his concerns about his sons, and Gibson's daughters possibly falling for each other. That was an eye opener for Gibson.  After dealing with Coxe's letter, I think Gibson felt at ease with not worrying about Molly falling in love, or anyone else falling for her.  He really did not realize until the squire brought this up, that it will be inevitable, for Molly and Cynthia, to fall in love and marry one day.  Oh how our hearts hate letting go of our children, and seeing they are growing up, and away from us.

Yes, Clare and Cynthia do speak in "code" as you point out JoanP., they desperately do not want anyone else to know their secret about Preston. 

Ciao for now~

p.s. Due to snow days, schools are closed so I will have 10 kids in my daycare, with one screaming colic baby, so I can't wait for this day to be over!  Anxious to get into the next chapters.

[PatH]

Roger’s tutor says that Roger’s success is only half owing to his mental powers, and half to his perfect health, which enabled him to work harder without suffering.  Does this make sense?  How does it fit in with ideas of the time?

This is an example of a growing movement in England in the 19th century, both in religion and the schools.  It was important for proper student, or scholar, to be physically strong and fit too—mens sana in corpore sano.  I don’t know much about the religious movement—does anybody else?—but the emphasis on sports and physical fitness in the public schools has persisted.

Roger exemplifies this changing notion of what a proper Englishman should be. He relates to another line of thought here too, starting to be important when the book was written.  Have you spotted it?

[Jonathan]

Bless you, Bellamarie, for keeping your daycare open, when others are closing their doors to the children. And thank you ever so much in helping me to understand the hearts and minds of these two young women. Isn't it the purpose of the author to explore the fortunes of two girls so different in nature? Each has her own idea of love. And you're so right. Very often Mom and Dad are the last to know what the kids are up to. What a shock it must have been for the young Coxe. Discouraged by Molly. Captivated by Cynthia, the girl who is only interested in trophies.

Molly's feelings obviously run deeper. And in different channels'. At the end of chapter 37, A Fluke, with Cynthia sharing the letter from Roger in Africa, suffering a serious illness, Molly prays in her heart: 'O my Lord...grant that he may come home safe, and live happily with her whom he loves so tenderly - so tenderly, O God.'

Does Roger really love her all that tenderly. Molly believes so. The author does not. In fact Gaskell gets sarcastic about Rogers love for Cynthia. All she sees is a young man falling head over heels for Cynthia's charming ways. And this is the young man who took top honors at Cambridge, a very bright guy to  deserve Senior Wrangler status. At the end of chapter 33, Brightening Prospects, Roger is caught musing about Cynthia. He wants to tell his love, and then go to Africa for two years. And remain true:

'Then she would know at any rate how dearly she was beloved by one who was absent; how in all difficulties or dangers the thought of her would be a polar star, high up in the heavens, and so on, and so on,; for with a lover's quickness of imagination and triteness of fancy, he called her a star, a flower, a nymph, a witch, an angel, or a mermaid, a nightingale, a siren, as one or another of her attributes rose up before him.'

'And so on, and so on.' Now why did Gaskell add that sarcasm? She must have felt that the reader should be told the truth. Cynthia really is that good. She succeeds without trying. And gets herself into trouble.

In his letter from Africa, Roger writes:'what had he to write about, but his love and his researches. There was no society, no gaiety, no new books to write about, no gossip in Abyssinian wilds.'

The life and the gossip are all back there in Hollingford. Where fools fall so easily into love, or are pushed in to it.

[Jonathan]

Just read your post, PatH. That is another angle to explore. The book is certainly a picture of the times in many ways.

[JoanK]

"In fact, Roger seems almost too good to be true." But Gaskell counters that by making him ugly and awkward socially.

The one who seems too good to be true is Molly. She realizes that she loves Roger, and he wants to marry Cynthia, who will marry him without loving him, yet she doesn't feel any resentment? We are resenting Cynthia for her!

But we've all known Cynthias. She is not evil, just a natural flirt who is oblivious to the harm she is doing. Presumably, if she'd had a more sensible mother, she would have taught Cynthia to restrain her behavior.

[JoanK]

Gaskell seems to raise plot twists, and then get rid of them in the middle of the book. We thought Mr. Coxe might be a major character, but he's been summarily taken care of.

Notice that he's below taking seriously because he has red hair! Now, the girls follow my red-haired grandson around!

[bellamarie]

PatH., Yes, the times they are a changing, in England, and these young people are throwing all the rules of etiquette out the window!  Nothing remotely is recognizable, as in the Austen novels, where etiquette is the focus so much so, it can be restraining.

JoanK., I agree, you think a plot is developing, and POOF!  It's gone!!  I have decided Gaskell may have had an absolute blast in twisting and turning the plots and characters around.  Can you just imagine her sitting there at her desk, giggling as she makes a major change or discrepancy, thinking AHA! I've fooled them again!! 

I do keep expecting Molly to sooner or later lose her patience, and kindheartedness, where Cynthia is concerned.  She does seem a bit too good to be true to not have an ounce of jealousy.  And I do have to admit, I think Gaskell having Cynthia putting so much time and attention on Molly's dress and hair, and not caring about her own, did seem a bit odd, since Cynthia wants to be center of attention at all times.

Jonathon, 

Cynthia really is that good. She succeeds without trying. And gets herself into trouble.

JoanK., 

But we've all known Cynthias. She is not evil, just a natural flirt who is oblivious to the harm she is doing. Presumably, if she'd had a more sensible mother, she would have taught Cynthia to restrain her behavior.

Cynthia as the two of you point out does not even have to try, and flirting to the extreme led her to getting a good talking to from Mr. Gibson, where he points out that she could be called something beyond a flirt, if she continues.  Hmmm....just what would that be?  It sure did upset Cynthia knowing Mr. Gibson was questioning her character.

Ciao for now~

Thank you Jonathon, for the kind words.  I survived the day, and God answered my prayers, the colic baby had a perfect day!  And I actually allowed two of my grandkids talk me in to spending the night.  Now, to get some sleep, get up in the morning, go to two basketball games, and a child birthday party. 


 

[PatH]

Bellamarie, I'm tired just reading about what you are doing.

[Jonathan]

I'm so busy today. Just time to read your posts and I'm out of here. The twists and turns are about to end and the drama  is about to begin. And the fun comes back. There's method in this author's madness.

[JoanP]

Olympics fever has taken over our house big time...and now  a new episode of Doc Martin!
 I'd really intended to come in here and ask what you thought about the "fluke" in the last chapter, before we move on to Mr. Kirkpatrick's appearance in Hollingford.   I've been thinking about what effect this uncle will have on the story.  A little late for a new character, don't you think?

What exactly is a fluke?  An unusual happening?  Something unexpected?  So what was the fluke in this chapter?  Mr. Coxe's return to Molly, and then his sudden infatuation with Cynthia? Mr. Gibson is really angry with Cynthia, lecturing her.  It should be interesting to see how this chapter connects with the next - Chapter 38, "Mr. Kirkpatrick, Q.C."

Back to Snowboarding - Slopestyle!

[PatH]

Preston’s loyalty to his employer makes him want to “scatter his enemies”.  What is the reference?

Nobody recognized the quote.  It's from God Save the King, second verse.

O Lord our God arise
Scatter his enemies
And make them fall.
Confound their politics
Frustrate their knavish tricks
On thee our hopes we fix
God save the King!

It's not much sung now--slightly embarrassing.

[JoanP]

I suppose Mr. Preston considers anyone Cynthia smiles at to be his enemy, PatH?  That might include Mr. Coxe...Osborne, but surely not Roger.  After reading your post with the lyrics, I found this - they came to be "referred to as the National Anthem at the beginning of the nineteenth century."  So Mr. Preston was very familiar with them.

Further, the source...

Psalm 68
 A Psalm of David
God shall arise, his enemies shall be scattered;
    and those who hate him shall flee before him!
2 As smoke is driven away, so you shall drive them away;
    as wax melts before fire,
    so the wicked shall perish before God!
3 But the righteous shall be glad;
    they shall exult before God;
    they shall be jubilant with joy!
 
What's your guess (no fair if you've finished the book!)  Will Mr. Preston scatter his enemies?  Will he and Cindy Cynthia marry?

[ANNIE]

Cindy??? who is that, Joanp?  Her dignity has crashed with that nickname!  I can't figure out who Preston's enemies are?  Would it be the Squire or Roger or Osborne?  And maybe Lady Hariette?  Hmmmph!

[JoanP]

Lady Harriet? Mr. Preston's enemy?  Roger and Osborne, perhaps, though I don't think he understands that Cynthia and Roger have a relationship. (Annie, how can I explain what my iPad does to names, sometimes.  ie Cindy for Cynthia ... )

I'd say Mr. P's enemies=all those who might come between a marriage to Cynthia.

[PatH]

I know what your iPad is doing.  It thinks it knows better than you what word you meant, and if you don't notice the little blue alternative it gave you and just hit the space bar, it replaces your word with its own.  It's an awful pain--maybe I'll find a way to turn it off.

The enemies in this passage are not Preston's, but Lord Cumnor's: "...he considered it as loyalty to his employer to 'scatter his enemies' by any means in his power."  Since this passage occurs right after Preston has had a disagreement with the Squire and Roger, presumably it means the Hamleys.  But Preston strikes me as an essentially vindictive type, always ready to get even with anyone he can think of.

[bellamarie]

I took Preston's reference to "enemies." at that precise time to be, the squire and Roger, or anyone else that would get in his way, or cause him problems with Lord Cumnor.  Preston feels entitled for some reason, as if he is a King! 

And now we have the Hollingford sisters revealing, Preston was engaged before and the father had it broken off, and  is now engaged to Cynthia!  But then it is through way of another person, so now that Molly has assured them it can't be Cynthia, they are going back and forth as to it being Cynthia who was said to be seen, but because Molly has grown as tall and wears the same plaid shawl and bonnet, it could have been a mistake and may have been Molly.  Yet, one more of Gaskell's way of leaving the door open, to change her mind later as to who it really is.

My guess is that Cynthia is meeting privately with Preston, giving her allowance money to him, to cover some of his gambling debts, since Gaskell has revealed he has a problem with gambling.  So while I personally think it was indeed Cynthia seen with Preston, I am not putting any bets on it.      A little play on words...hee hee

I thought it was convenient for Gaskell to introduce the Uncle Kirkpatrick so late in the story, as a means to get Cynthia and Clare to London for a whole week, and to throw in the question of where is Cynthia's allowance going.  Funny how Molly and her father are like, "While the cat is away, the mice will play."  This was a real eye opener as to how very unhappy Clare makes their day to day life, just being in the house.

Jonathon,

" There's method in this author's madness." 

Well, I will take your word for it since you have read ahead.  Have you finished the entire book? 

JoanP., I have decided to DVR the Olympics so my hubby and I can enjoy them at our leisure, since we have so much going on with our two grandkids basketball tournaments approaching.  It's really nice to just click which event we want to watch at any time.

Annie, I read

"Cindy"

and seriously got so confused.  I hate those dang technology devices that think they are smarter than the actual user.  Like voice smartphones, that prints text according to what it hears, yet it is not what was actually said.  I crack up when I see a text from my daughter in law with a word thrown in that makes no sense.  lolol  You've got to love em and hate em at the same time. 

I managed to get through yesterday's busy schedule and even make it to evening mass, so today was a day of lounging in my pjs all day.  PatH., I do collapse, and treasure my down time.

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

When you figure out how to turn off that helpful little feature, please let us know, Pat. Would save us from a bunch of embarrassment...although I do appreciate spelling corrections.

It makes sense that Uncle Kirkpatrick was introduced as a way to get Cynthia and Clare out of Hollingford, Bella.  I thought this gave Molly and Dad a chance to bond as their unhappiness in Clare's household became apparent.

Not sure Mrs. Gaskell provided a good enough reason for this uncle's interest in his niece after so many years.  Did you see one - other than she is beautiful and charming?  Maybe we'll learn of another reason later.  Maybe Mr. Preston was behind the invitation.  Easy to blame him for everything.

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,   LOLOLOL  Yep, Preston could be our scapegoat, although I can't see him wanting Cynthia any further away from him than necessary. 

When I read the uncle being introduced, I seriously was going HUH???  Out of the blue he wants Cynthia to visit him, and a reason for Clare to join Cynthia, when she was complaining about not being invited.  I have learned to just roll with the punches where this book is concerned.  

I'm beginning to think Gaskell does not feel the need to provide good enough reasons for anything....but then who knows...there is still lots of story to be told.

Ciao for now~

[Lucylibr]

I don't have any problem with the motivation of plot in Gaskell's novel.  Unexpected events happen in the Victorian novel to move the plot along, as they do in any novel, and they are not as important for themselves as for the way they reveal character and manners.  Young women frequently viisited relatives in order to meet people and learn about the world before, and to facilitate, finding a mate. Often unmarried women did this; I think of the maiden aunt who has no real home and just visits among relatives.  They did not have the freedom we have today to go to college or take a job in another city but they crave a change of scene and an opportunity to learn more about life. 

I think Gaskell is best in creating scenes that with small details that reveal a great deal about the characters.  After Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia leave, Molly is ecstatic about having her father to herself and tells him of all the things they can enjoy together. He listens agreeeably enough but says he doesn't want to lose all the civilized behavior he has learned and insists they also go to tea with at Mrs. Goodenough's.  He is showing loyalty to his wife, he can't afford to speak ill of her behind her back, because he a man of stalwart character and makes the best of what he has done, and I think he also wants Molly to grow up a bit and realize that her life too is changing and she can't be his playful little girl forever.

The Brownings I think are characters left over from Cranford, but how wonderfully do they intone the social values of the past, the rigid standards that are no longer held but modern people are not too sure how far they can stray from.  The way the elder one scolds Molly is disconcerting, about the broken cup, and then about her response to the implication that Molly could be involved with Preston, but Miss Browning feels her role is to discipline and control Molly, of course all for her own good. 

There are just so many scenes in the book that say so much.  Mrs. Gibson presents her devious plans in the presence of people outside the family so the family cannot strenuously object and she can get approval at least from people who are not involved anyway.  The more I read, the more I enjoy this novel.

[PatH]

I agree that Mr. Kirkpatrick's reasons for inviting Cynthia are adequately explained.  It would be a sort of family duty to keep an eye on his brother's daughter, so when he can finally fit it into his busy professional life, and is going to be in the neighborhood anyway, he visits, and is charmed.  Then, when he remembers, he suggests his wife invite the girl.  The real question is why is Cynthia reluctant to go?  It isn't just the clothes.

The whole chapter is full of wonderful comic touches--a breath of relief between more serious things.  How about Mrs. Goodenough always walking with the grease spots on her clothes next to her husband so no one else could see them.

Or Miss Browning: "Whenever there's a second course, there's always the clergyman of the parish invited in any family of gentility."

Or the Gibsons:
"Have I not often said so, Mr. Gibson?"
"Probably."

[Lucylibr]

PatH: Yes, and walking with the grease spot where it doesn't show reminds me of Cranford. There the ladies did not need to dress up because everybody knew them, and when they were among new people they didn't need to dress up because nobody knew them. So they could preserve their best clothes, and of course they had very little money.

[bellamarie]

Lucy,  I agree in many of Austen's novels, girls go off for visits with family or close friends.  My surprise in introducing Mr. Kirkpatrick so late in the story, and how quickly Cynthia is invited to come for a visit when there has been so little mention.  But it did give Molly the opportunity to have some time with her father, which I thought was nice.

[Jonathan]

'The more I read, the more I enjoy this novel.'

My feeling too, Lucy. Yes, Bellamarie, I've read to the end, and now enjoy going back and rereading. I watched the movie over the weekend, all five hours of it, and found it a real pleasure. Along the way I found a quote from the guy who plays Preston: 'there's something endearingly honest about him. Preston is acting out of profound love and has the purest motivation of anyone in the story.' He loves Cynthia. They all do, if less passionately.

And here comes the uncle, Mr Kirkpatrick, Q.C. I, too, wondered about his interest in his niece. She charms him. He finds her 'sparkling, quick, graceful and witty.' How wonderful to have her as a houseguest. In the next chapter we find Cynthia softening the old squire' heart.

Pat, I enjoyed your selection of 'comic touches'. There are so many. Does Mrs Goodenough really remake her gowns so the grease stains will be out of sight, with Mr G covering for her? Or your quote:

"Have I not often said so, Mr. Gibson?"
"Probably."

That suggests to me that he doesn't listen to everything she says.  And how about the strains showing up in the Gibson family setting? That last sentence in Chapter 38, Mr Kirkpatrick Q.C., is ominous. Clare is coming between Molly and her father, doing 'all the things, in fact, which Molly and her father did not want to have done and throwing the old stumbling-blocks in the way of their unrestricted intercourse, which was the one thing they desired to have, free and open, and without the constant dread of her jealousy.'

As Lucy points out, Gaskell does use clever plot devices as a means of getting the situations she wants. Mr Kirkpatrick gets Mrs Gibson out of the house for a week, allowing father and daughter to themselves.

[Jonathan]

Yes, Bellamarie. Right on. I hadn't read your post before posting mine. We had the same reaction to that development. I've read to the end. I hope nothing I post spoils it for you. But of course it won't. There are just too many possible interpretations for everything.

[Lucylibr]

Jonathan: I'm surprised and curious about the quote you give us by the actor who played Preston.  I am thinking I need to use my DVR player again and see this movie.  But 5 hours!  I applaud your diligence.

[PatH]

That's perilously close to a spoiler, Jonathan.  As yet we know very little about the history of Preston and Cynthia--just hints and speculations.

Not only does Gibson not listen carefully to his wife, she is probably pretty inaccurate in reporting what she has said.  Truth would be hard to come by.