Author Topic: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online  (Read 62517 times)

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: February 10, 2014, 06:40:34 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell


Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.

The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule:

Part 5   Feb.12-Feb.21
    Feb. 12 - Feb.18}
      Chapter 41. Gathering Clouds
      Chapter 42. Storm Bursts
      Chapter 43. Cynthia's Confession
      Chapter 44. Molly Gibson To The Rescue
      Chapter 45. Confidences
      Chapter 46. Hollingford Gossips
      Chapter 47. Scandal And Its Victims

Some Things to Think About

Feb. 12-18 Chapters XLI-XLVII ~ (...)

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XLI.     Gathering Clouds
     Do you find it suspenseful to hear again about Roger's fever in letters that are several weeks old?
      What causes Molly to doubt Cynthia's love for Roger?
      Are we yet able to understand more why Cynthia doesn't want her arrangement with Roger to be made known? We're still kept in suspense about the "gathering clouds."
      What do you think of Miss Browning's admonitions to both Molly and Mrs. Gibson?
    
CHAPTER XLII.   Storm Bursts
     What happens when Molly finds Cynthia with Mr. Preston? What storm bursts? What does Molly learn?
What are Molly's thoughts when she and Cynthia return home?

CHAPTER XLIII  Cynthia's Confession
     Has your opinion of Cynthia changed because of what you've learned in her "confession?" Do you feel more or less sympathy for her? Do you understand Cynthia's actions as a 16 year-old? Do you understand her subsequent actions/feelings?
    Has your opinion of Cynthia's mother changed based on what you've heard from Cynthia in this chapter?
    What are Molly's main concerns after she hears everything from Cynthia?
    
CHAPTER XLIV  Molly Gibson To The Rescue
     What do you think of Molly during her meeting with Mr. Preston?
     What do you think of Preston?
     Do you foresee some mischief coming about from Mr. Sheepshank seeing Molly and Mr. Preston together?
     How does Cynthia misjudge Molly?

CHAPTER XLV   Confidences
     What are Molly's reactions to her being involved in Cynthia's secret?
     What do you think about Cynthia's behavior and what she asks of Molly now that the letters have been returned?
     What do you think about Osborne's confidence and his assessments of Molly and Cynthia?

CHAPTER XLVI  Hollingford Gossips
    How does the gossip about Molly escalate?
    Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?

CHAPTER XLVII  Scandal And Its Victims
    What do we learn in the beginning of this chapter about Cynthia's feelings toward Molly?
    How does Mrs. Gibson characterize her/one's duty toward the sick?
    What does Mr. Preston think when he heard some of the rumors about Molly and him?
    Do you understand the Miss Brownings actions?
   What do you think of Mr. Gibson's reactions to hearing from Miss Browning?


 
DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln,  
PatH
,  ADOANNIE

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: February 10, 2014, 07:28:20 PM »
Jonathon,  
Quote
That last sentence in Chapter 38, Mr Kirkpatrick Q.C., is ominous. Clare is coming between Molly and her father, doing 'all the things, in fact, which Molly and her father did not want to have done and throwing the old stumbling-blocks in the way of their unrestricted intercourse, which was the one thing they desired to have, free and open, and without the constant dread of her jealousy.'

Yes, indeed Mr. Kirkpatrick found a way to get Clare out of the house, and give Molly and her father some alone time.  So, do you suppose Mr. K. knew full well Clare would end up coming along, if he invited Cynthia?  After all, he did know her when she was married to his brother.  Hmmm.... nice catch Jonathon, I sort of zipped right by that.  

I'll ignore that quote about Preston, since I'm not sure where it fits in, and I don't want to spoil it before I get to it.  And yes, there are so many twists and turns and interpretations, what we think we see at one moment, can be dashed away in the next page or chapter.

This story is starting to pick up speed in these chapters......I can't wait to see what happens when the two of them return home, and see Molly and her father have had a delightful time.  But as Lucy points out, he did just enough, to show his respect for his wife being gone.  Molly does at some point need to mature, and not need those type of things, a little child needs from her father.  She is old enough to be married, she needs to begin letting go of her father, and start seeing the two of them in a more adult father/daughter relationship.  I felt as if Gaskell was giving Molly her last
hoo - rah with her father, in her childlike manner.  How is Clare going to feel when she returns and learns about this?

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: February 10, 2014, 07:48:13 PM »
Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Gaskell was going out of her way to portray Molly as a child, as a rather awkward teenager, not yet a woman?  She's 18 years old!  What did you think of the broken teacup?  I thought it would have been a nice thing for Uncle Kirkpatrick to invite both girls, don't you?  Maybe Molly's awkwardness was apparent and he decided against it after meeting her. Isn't it said that Molly has just had a growth spurt?  Would that explain her awkwardness?Jonathan I'm curious, how did she appear in the film at this age?

I still believe we're going to learn more why he invited Cynthia, though.  Cynthia says her clothes are not good enough for London society.  I guess I can believe that.  She's been scrimping, at the expense of her wardrobe.  Is this the reason she doesn't want to go?  Really?
I assumed that she was frightened to go off by herself, fearing Mr. Preston would stalk her.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: February 11, 2014, 12:48:45 PM »
I wondered about this particular part, pg. 476 "They'll ask Mr. Ashton, of course," said Miss Browning.  "The three black graces, Law, Physic, and Divinity, as the song calls them.  Whenerver there's a second course, there's always the clergyman of the parish invited in any family of gentility.

So I went on a Google search to find the song they mention.  I found Theodore Hook wrote the song, and also found this info on him:

Theodore Hook was a famed English author who was particularly known for his outlandish practical jokes, chief of which was the Berners Street Hoax.  While Hook was never charged for the events he instigated in the Berners Street Hoax, he did have other legal troubles.  Foremost of which was when he was made the Accountant General and Treasurer of Mauritius, now known as the Republic of Mauritius, despite having no knowledge of or experience with accounting or book keeping or most other skills required of the job.  He managed to last five years at that position before it was discovered that there were large discrepancies in the accounts.  He was arrested and held responsible for around £12,000 that was lost, supposedly largely having been taken by a deputy official.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/10/one-of-the-great-practical-jokes-of-the-19th-century-the-berners-street-hoax/

The found these verses of the song:

"The three black graces, Law, Physic, and Divinity,
Walk hand - in - hand along the Strand, humming la Poule,
Trade quits his Compter, Alma Mater her Latinity
Proud and vain with Mr. Payne to go to school.
Should you want advice in Law, you'll little gain by asking it,
Your Lawyer's not a Westminister; he's busy Pas de basqu'ing it:
D'ye want to loose a Tooth, and run to Wayte for drawing it;
He sure cannot attend:  he's Demi Queue he Chat'ing it:
    Run Neighbours run; all London is Quadrilling it,
    While Order and Sobriety dance Dos' a dos.__

http://books.google.com/books?id=_sG6ns1N7CYC&pg=PA344&dq=The+three+black+graces,+Law,+Physic,+and+Divinity,+Walk+hand+-+in+-+hand+along+the+Strand,+humming+La+Poule&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x1v6UurOMs2ayQHHg4DIBg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=The%20three%20black%20graces%2C%20Law%2C%20Physic%2C%20and%20Divinity%2C%20Walk%20hand%20-%20in%20-%20hand%20along%20the%20Strand%2C%20humming%20La%20Poule&f=false


Whatever did Miss Browning infer using that quote?  Is Mr. Kirkpatrick playing some sort of joke on Clare and Cynthia, by taking them away to London?  Is Mrs. Gaskell showing us she is a jokester as well, by using Theodore Hook's song?    Hmmm....food for thought.



Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: February 11, 2014, 02:58:38 PM »
'Is Mrs Gaskell showing us she is a jokester....?' I wouldn't put it past her, Bellamarie. Thanks for that interesting link. And I've concluded that she is also a brilliant gossip. She certainly know how to use it to confound a reader. Or perhaps she has just caught the spirit of small town Hollingford. Gossip accounts for the poor image of Mr Preston. Here's a link to the quote from Iain Glen, who plays him in the movie. You'll find it at the very bottom of the page, the wrong place for a major figure.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/wives/whos_who_text.html

The movie really made clear for me that the story is  about two girls, so different in nature, different in upbringing, and who suggested it...rivals in love? And that reminds me of wanting to reply to JoanK's post several days ago, pointing out that a neglected Cynthia could have turned out better if she had lived with a mother's restraints as a child. Certainly, but I would also like to suggest that she missed out on a mother's love. Cynthia is just as unsure of herself as Molly. But it's practically a refrain from Cynthia that she's looking for love, and more importanly, looking for approval. I enjoyed Pat's suggestion that truth is hard to come by in this book.

 'I thought it would have been a nice thing for Uncle Kirkpatrick to invite both girls, don't you?' I agree, JoanP. Molly is wonderful in the movie. I found her just as graceful as Cynthia. Molly has a fine English grace about her, compared to Cynthia's flamboyant French style.

As for the broken china cup, that's totally out of character. Thats related at Miss Browning's, and she just wants the world to know that she is taking a hand in teaching Molly...what a mother should/would have taught her.

'I'll be her guardian angel, in spite of herself.' end of chapter 40. Never will she permit Mr Preston to get her as his wife. That gossipy bunch that gets together at the Brownings is hilarious. 

JoanK

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: February 11, 2014, 03:40:08 PM »
I think we are seeing the effects of the book having come out as a serial. I'm guessing that Gaskell didn't plot the whole book out ahead of time (as I believe Dickens did) but each time she had to write another installment, thought "well, what shall I do with them now?" That would make sense of the way subplots arise and fall away during the book.

PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: February 11, 2014, 04:02:00 PM »
Hmm--that makes sense, JoanK.  I like to think that at least she knew how her characters were going to end up.

Miss Browning May have cast herself as Molly's guardian angel, but she's being pretty harsh about it.  First she scolds Molly unmercifully in front of everyone about breaking a teacup, then she is surprised when Molly shrinks in a corner and stops talking.

And she's awfully quick to believe that it was Molly and not Cynthia who was seen with Mr. Preston, in spite of Mrs. Goodenough's certainty on the point.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: February 11, 2014, 04:08:53 PM »
Your post immediately made me think of Dickens' The Mystery of Edwin Drood, JoanK.  I don't think I'll ever get over the fact that he didn't plot out the ending before he died.  Not only that - he didn't speak to ANYONE about how he intended to end that story.  At least Mrs. Gaskell spoke to others - her editor, about her story and we will not be left in the dark at the end!

Bella, I read right past that reference...will go back and reread if time this afternoon.  (Understand that when you give page numbers, we're not reading the same text - better to give chapter numbers.  Will try to find the reference, but know idea of its importance.  Maybe in context...)

Funny, the busybodies - they claim Molly as their own, praise her goodness, take credit for the way she has been brought up - yet are so quick to believe that she is dallying in the lane with Mr. Preston!
Molly as graceful as Cynthia in the movie, Jonathan?  I can't wait for it to arrive.  That seems to underscore the fact that Miss Browning is just embellishing her story when she speaks of Molly's awkwardness.  (Anyone can drop a teacup, no?)
Does it occur to Molly that it was Cynthia in the lane with Mr. Preston??  She must have - but I don't remember her reaction when it was implied that it was Molly...

I do agree, Cynthia seems to be blaming her mother for all of her past bad behavior... Do continue to defend Clare, JonathanI I tend to think the mother is self-centered and a bit dillusional, but Cynthia needs to take responsibility for her actions - whatever she did. We're about to find out what that is... FINALLY!

Posting at the same time, Pat.  As you can see, I agree with you.  Who are Molly's friends if not the Brownings?




PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: February 11, 2014, 04:14:44 PM »
JoanP, I've solved the problem of auto-correct on the iPad.  Go to Settings.  Select General.  Scroll down to Keyboard--it's fairly far down.  Tap it to get the keyboard menu.  In this menu, slide the ON switch of Auto-Correction to OFF.  If you leave Check Spelling set to ON, it will still underline misspellings.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: February 11, 2014, 04:18:28 PM »
Got it!  That should help!  No more "Cindy" for Cynthia.  Part of that was my fault...I think I started to type Cinthia and was corrested!  Better just to see it underlined. :D

Jonathan, was the film broken up as if in installments?

Tomorrow we are scheduled to  move on to Mrs. Gibson's return to Hollingford after her stay in London and then  hopefully learn more about what Cynthia has done with Mr. Preston.  

There's an important question we haven't addressed yet-Osborne's health.  Do we agree that Dr. Gibson's opinion was more accurate than Dr. Nicholl's?  Molly seems to have no idea that he is so ill, or she would have insisted on letting Roger know. And the Squire- should know his son was ill.  If Osborne were to die, where would that leave his wife?  And how does this all fit in with Cynthia's engagement to Roger?

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: February 11, 2014, 06:36:55 PM »
JoanP., Sorry I forgot about the page numbers being different.  It can be found in chapter 38, I believe it's on the first page of that chapter, when the Browning sisters are talking about Mr. Kirkpatrick coming for a visit.  Just never understood why Gaskell used that particular part of Hook's song.  Other than she liked his sense of humor.  In the verses it pretty much says these particular career people will not be available to provide their services, since they will be too busy dancing and humming to the music  la Poule (The Hen)  lolol

Jonathon, I will rent the movie once we finish the book.  I would love to see how all the characters look.

JoanK., Yes, I agree, like I mentioned earlier, this book knowing it was in series form, really does remind me of a Soap Opera, the writers can change directions of a character at any given time, because there truly is no set outcome, since it's ongoing.  Reading the book in segments the way we are, makes me feel even more like watching and waiting each day for my soap, General Hospital. 

I felt the entire teacup incident was cruel and embarrassing for Molly.  Geesh that was much ado, about nothing.  Miss Browning, I felt was trying to feel important and show others she is trying to help Molly learn manners etc. Sheeeze....really?

Molly speaks about her concern, about how Cynthia acts so upset about Mr. Preston, yet seems intimate with him at times, so I am sure it did not come as a surprise to her when the Browning sister mentions she was seen with Preston in the lane.  Molly jumps to defend Cynthia, regardless, if she knows Cynthia has had some sort of relationship with Preston at Ashcombe.  I think Molly really was upset that the women were gossiping about Cynthia.

As for Osborne's health, I think he is just heartsick for the mess he has gotten his life in.  He sees no way out, and now he has not only a wife hidden away, but a baby soon to be born. 

Another thing we did not discuss was the fact Preston had been previously engaged, and the girl's father made her call off the engagement due to his gambling.  I mentioned in a prior post, I think Cynthia is giving her allowance to Preston to help pay off his gambling debts, in lieu of the arrangement he has with Clare for helping her in a financial situation at Ashcombe.  Any thoughts on this?

Okay, I am off to read the next chapters....some of you are mentioning things that are piquing my interest.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #331 on: February 11, 2014, 08:17:07 PM »
Thanks for the chapter number, Bella.  After rereading, it, I remember now...Mrs. Goodenough wondering if the Gibsons will host a party for the visiting QC..  They'll probably invite the pastor, Mr. Ashton ..."Whenever there's a second course there's always the clergyman of the parish invited in any family of gentility"..
The three black graces - from a song with which Mrs. Goodenough was familiar as she anticipates a gathering of the Law, (Mr. K), Physic, (Dr. Gibson) and Divinity, (Mr. Ashton.)
Is Mrs. Goodenough laughing at Mrs. Gibson here? - "who would ha thought she'd such grand relations."

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #332 on: February 11, 2014, 08:37:20 PM »
We should remember Dr. Gibson's first diagnosis of Osborne's condition...that it was fatal.  He didn't want to believe this - called in the elder Dr. Nicholl's for another opinion. He didn't think it as anything as serious as Dr. Gibson did.  I don't know about you, but I  believed Dr. Gibson's first impression, which would mean Osborne's health is much worse than just being heartsick because of the mess he's in.

I'm not so sure Mrs. Gaskell is changing her story from one installment to the next, as much as she's revealing her story at her own pace, leading us to think we read more than she has written.  It's an art, really.

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #333 on: February 12, 2014, 12:55:44 AM »
Sorry, I was getting a little ahead of where we were reading this week.  It was so interesting I just kept on going.  I feel the teacup incident is over the top, ridiculous to us anyway, and maybe used to entertain Gaskell's readers with a change of pace.  The Brownings are the type of people one meets in Cranford, which was and is such a unique, beloved, popular short novel known for its humor.  I can't help thinking Mrs. Gaskell wanted to entertain with more of the type of story enjoyed in Cranford, and went over the mark in her efforts to entertain. Of course these old ladies prized their china very much and probably did not have money to replace it.

I think Cynthia's reason for not wanting at first to go to London is what she says, a lack of proper wardrobe.  She is a budding fashionista, not quite as far gone as her mother, but wants to be seen looking fashionable.  As soon as she gets the money and the new dresses, she is happy and off for a good time.  I enjoy the youthful lightheartedness that she manifests in spite of her problems, while Molly is suffering through the long winter in depressed low spirits, which makes Mr. Kirkpatrick not like her as much as he does Cynthia and not think her very pretty, and is probably the reason he does not include her in his invitation.

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #334 on: February 12, 2014, 03:11:18 AM »
As some of you are remarking, it does seem that the "installment" method of writing likely influences the repetition of some information in various ways. It also likely calls for more suspense (or cliffhangers) than might otherwise be included.
We're now on to CHAPTER XLI "Gathering Clouds." We've been learning about Osborne's illness. Do you find it suspenseful to hear again about Roger's fever? His letters are about a month behind the current date. Molly is very affected by the news.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #335 on: February 12, 2014, 08:32:21 AM »
If Dr. Gibson's first diagnosis is correct and Oborne's has a fatal illness, it would seem both Hamley boys are in failing health with Roger in a second fever.  He may be recovered by now, but still two fevers in just a short time, and he still has a year to go in Africa.  It makes me wonder if he will make it home again.

I'm beginning to feel Molly's winter depression, we can't seem to stop snowing and our temp was -11 this morning!  I so want Spring to come!  Okay off to read this week's chapters......this book sure has helped my winter days pass by with anticipation!

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #336 on: February 12, 2014, 09:37:52 AM »
Lucy- do you find, as I do, that by introducing the "over the top" humorous elements, through the ladies of Cranford - that Mrs. Gaskell is signaling that this will NOT be a dark tale, ending in tragedy?  I'm beginning to believe all will end well - though not certain about Osborne.  Plenty of allusions in these chapters indicate that Dr. Gibson's original diagnosis was correct.

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #337 on: February 12, 2014, 11:24:48 AM »
Joan, I think that's a good point to compare with Cranford. Miss Mattie's admirer dies in it but it's essentially a hopeful story. Bellamarie, I'm thinking that we're supposed to be worried for both brothers but maybe it's just to keep tension in the story. At least one needs to make it through!

In this chapter, there is more cause for tension. What causes Molly to doubt Cynthia's love for Roger?

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #338 on: February 12, 2014, 01:27:17 PM »
I am a bit confused, if Osborne is in fatal health, why when Dr. Gibson returns, and Molly tells him Osborne was here and not looking well, Gibson shows no reason to go straight to see him?  He did not seem in any urgency at all?? ???
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #339 on: February 12, 2014, 05:37:07 PM »
For Dr. Gibson: nothing urgent about Osborne's health? Good question, Bellamarie. Have you noticed? Osborne's health means something different to each of them. Dr. Gibson, of course, has seen what Molly has seen, and knows that the illness will run its course. More important is the falling out he has had with his wife over it. For Mrs Gibson Osborne's health is supremely important as it affects Cynthia's marriage prospects. The squire is too troubled to notice. Or does he?

LOL. The book is getting me through the winter as well as you! We're buried in snow here in Toronto. What a luxury, to be retired and not have to go out. Even five hours of movie passes the time so pleasantly.

'I'm beginning to believe all will end well.' Your optimism, JoanP, is a thrill to behold. Let me tell you something about the author I just read the other day. Gaskell had a fondness for happy endings. You are so right about installment writing being an art form.

'Cynthia is a budding fashionista, not quite as far gone as her mother...lighthearted in spite of her problems'. What a fine observation, Lucy. And you're right about Cranford revisited. Delightful. And isn't Roger's health used to show both girl's feelings about him?

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #340 on: February 12, 2014, 05:46:16 PM »
And of course, for Cynthia, Osborne's health raises the question: do we have to talk about it? Talk of death, that is. She has as much of a problem with her mother, as Mr Gibson has with his wife. Poor Clare. Sometimes my heart bleeds for her

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #341 on: February 12, 2014, 06:19:20 PM »
Quote
" Dr. Gibson, of course, has seen what Molly has seen, and knows that the illness will run its course."
Really,  Jonathan?  Does Dr. G. know Osborne's illness will run its course? Is that why he didn't go right over to Hamley Hall?  

I just now finished Chapter 47- can't get past this ominous sentence-
It occurred when Dr. Gibson, still putting off his visit to  Hamley Hall, wrote to Osborne to ask him how he was. Osborne told him not to come on his account (doesn't want the Squire to know how sick he is?)
Quote
"So the visit was deferred to that more convenient season which is so often too late"

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #342 on: February 12, 2014, 07:04:33 PM »
There were two other interesting revelations in the opening Gathering Storms chapter, I thought, Marcie -
 (Not that Clare's running dialogue about her own superior qualities wasn't amusing :D)

- Cynthia 's comments - and actions seem to indicate her lack of feeling for Roger, which Molly cannot understand.  She even went so far as to say she'd break it off altogether with Roger, if word of the engagement gets out before she wants it to.

- Though she apologized to Molly. Miss Browning continues to believe she saw Molly in the lane with Mr. Preston.  Does Molly think that Cynthia was the one seen with Preston?

ANNIE

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #343 on: February 12, 2014, 08:40:27 PM »

When everyone in the two families knew or suspected that there was something wrong with Osborne they failed to communicate their worries to each other.  I know that Mr Gibson couldn't mention Osborne's slim chances.  Is this where Clara tells Mr Gibson she overheard him talking to the other dr about  Osborne's health?

We seem to really be gentle with Cynthia's character but I get the impression that she was pretty empty when it came to her cares.  Her feelings seems shallow and uncaring when it comes to Roger.  Maybe she really is a vacuous and shallow girl. 
Whereas, Molly is so compassionate that she feels sorry for Roger and prays that he and Cynthia find happiness together. 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #344 on: February 12, 2014, 10:12:22 PM »
JoanP, yes Chapter XLI seems to contain the first time that Molly actually doubts Cynthia's love for Roger, although, from the beginnning Cynthia has confessed she can't love anyone.  I wonder if the author knew someone in real life who couldn't relate to people, based on the lack of intimacy in their upbringing. It seems a more modern sensibility.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #345 on: February 12, 2014, 11:30:32 PM »
These chapters really bothered me a lot!  Cynthia has manipulated Molly into getting her out of her mess she has made with Preston, while she goes off to London having fun at parties, leaving Molly with a heavy heart, and heavy responsibility in giving the money back to Preston.  I can't find any sympathy for the situation Cynthia had gotten herself into, because even though she was only sixteen years old, she is still repeating her selfish acts, and striving for attention. She continued to write love letters to Preston. 

This whole situation of the money from Preston surprises me in a way, because Cynthia spends so much time on Molly's dress and hair for the ball, and doesn't give a second thought to her own dress, yet she was so vain just two years prior, she takes money from Preston for pretty dresses, bonnets etc., and just recently, she not only takes money from Mr. Gibson for new dresses, but also gets more from her uncle when she goes to London.  She is all about fashion, going to the parties in London, capturing Mr. Henderson's attention,  while she is still promised to Preston, and Roger, before Molly was able to get her free from Preston.  Ughhh....you would think she would learn, but I fear her character is all about vanity and attention.   I would not be the least bit surprised if she marries Mr. Henderson on a whim, since he is far wealthier and more handsome than Roger.  I do believe Cynthia is incapable of real love with any depth, but I don't think she really cares about not being able to love, like Molly can.  Molly is innocent and can afford to be a romantic, Cynthia is more a realist.  Cynthia knows at the end of the day, marriage for her is much like her mother, a convenience to be taken care of financially, be accepted into society, and the proper families. 

Now that Cynthia's secret is out, and Molly has cleaned up her mess for her, it is almost heartless of Cynthia to pull away from her.  I think Cynthia would be happy to stay living in London, and never have to return and deal with Molly or Mr. Gibson's disappointment in her. 

I am still trying to digest these chapters.  I suspected Clare and Preston were promised to each other, but I thought for a far more important reason than what Gaskell came up with.  Dresses, bonnets, gloves, etc.   ::)  ::)  ::) I guess I will reserve my disappointment, until the end of the story, and hope for something better to come.

Ciao for now~



 

 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #346 on: February 13, 2014, 02:21:12 AM »
Bellamarie, it is difficult to have sympathy with Cynthia, especially seeing what a burden she has placed on Molly.  She does seem to have taken after her mother's self-centeredness, yet she can see through her mother.  Molly still loves her. Can Cynthia be without merit? We've been told from the beginning that Cynthia acts almost unconsciously. She becomes what people want to see in her. Can anyone explain her actions ... as a 16 year-old? Do you understand her subsequent actions/feelings? Jonathan, you usually are able to shed some light on the underdog.  ;)

Bellarmarie, re the letters Cynthia wrote to Preston, we don't know how long a time she continued to write, do we? I don't think that the letters were recent.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #347 on: February 13, 2014, 09:21:04 AM »
Marcie, there was no specific time as to when Cynthia stopped writing "love" letters to Preston, but it surely sounds as recent as to before she came back to live with the Gibson's, which means they were ongoing up to around 18 yrs old.  That seemed to be Preston's strongest argument, and Cynthia's biggest concern, that she had continued for two years. Cynthia is a bit of an enigma to me.  Gaskell has painted her with strokes of sweetness, yet she lacks the ability to genuinely care for others.  She only reacts to Molly being upset, when it pertains to herself not looking good in Molly's eyes.  She is like an egomaniac, it's got to be all about her at all times.  Yes, she sees through her mother's faults, and even acknowledges her own faults, yet does not seem the least bit interested in changing.  Granted, Cynthia has mentioned how her mother failed to give her love and attention, when she was young and needed it the most, using that for the excuse as to why she is unable to love, like Molly.  But that can not be the excuse for her to take advantage of others, such as promising herself to Roger, and putting Molly in such a difficult situation. She uses nice people, for her dalliances, and doesn't seem to give a hoot, as to what pain she causes them.  She just figures she will run away to London or Germany and be a governess, and leave the wounded behind.

I could have been more sympathetic to Cynthia's engagement to Preston, if say it was done due to him bailing Clare out of a financial situation, and she promises him, her daughter's hand in marriage, for his kind acts.  As much as I don't like Preston, I feel as much dislike for Cynthia after these chapters.  Does Clare even know about this engagement?  No where in these chapters does it even imply Clare knows, or had any knowledge of Preston giving Cynthia money, for dresses, bonnets etc.  How very vain.

Although I do have to say, Molly placed herself right smack dab in the middle of the entire mess, by acting all high and mighty with Preston.  Now what?  She was trying to save Cynthia's reputation, only to find she has completely destroyed her own.  Ughhhh....like I said these chapters have truly upset me.  I thought after sleeping on it, I would feel a little better today, but if anything the dread remains.  And yet, Cynthia is partying in fine fashion in London!  Thank goodness, Mr. Gibson has the good sense of knowing his daughter well enough, to not believe a word of this gossip.  But, I sense he is not going to be very happy to hear how Molly has conspired with Cynthia in this situation, causing herself shame in the town.  Mama Mia!

Yes, Jonathon, you expressed to have a bleeding heart for poor Clare.  Do jump in here, and help us out.  I for the life of me can't find an ounce of blood, sweat or tears to shed for either of these self absorbed mother/daughter team of manipulation.

Ciao for now~

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #348 on: February 13, 2014, 10:55:03 AM »
I tend to like Cynthia, against my better judgement, just because I envy fun-loving, light-hearted girls who have such a good time in society. Girls just like to have fun is a song I think. But what really makes me turn against her is her attitude toward Roger. She says to Molly:

"You forget how I detest Mr. Preston....It was that, more than any excess of love for Roger, that made me thankful to be at least as securely pledged to some one else. He did not want to call it an engagement, but I did; because it gave me the feeling of assurance that I was free from Mr. Preston."

So she uses poor Roger to correct the mistake she has gotten herself into, and plays one against the other, to spare herself.
Her mother says she is not constant in her affections and may not marry Roger and how graciously she receives attentions from Mr. Henderson.

Molly is suspicious of Cynthia while continuing to love her as a sister. How much communication has been going on between Cynthia and Preston? She seems to be able to set up a meeting with Molly easily enough and he seems to have expected Cynthia. And of course Preston says Cynthia is not reliable, and although he is not saint he felt a sincere and unworldly passion for her. But now he is thinking about revenge.

Cynthia's reason for saying she will leave Hollingford if discovered is that she is addicted to being liked. She is a people pleaser in the extreme who cannot endure being around people who do not approve of her.  Here Mrs.Gaskell is very insightful and presents a psychological state that is just as current today as it was then and most people can understand, because don't we all suffer from it from time to time? This kind of insight is why I like Gaskell so much.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #349 on: February 13, 2014, 11:11:42 AM »
How many times does Cynthia express the fear that she will not be loved, liked, or respected if people know what she is really like?  And yet, Mr. Preston seems to know her - and loves her, wants to marry her anyway.  Sounds to me like they are a match!  Maybe that's what Mrs. Gaskell has in store for them...
Now Molly knows her secret - and what she's capable of.  Yet she remains a loyal friend.  I think that Cynthia will distance herself from Molly now - and anyone else who knows what she is really like.

I can't say I like Cynthia...would want her for a friend, but I do feel sorry for her.  What a lonely life.  I know people like this.  Is there a bit of Cynthia in all of us?
 

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #350 on: February 13, 2014, 11:13:36 AM »
bellamarie and Lucy, I appreciate your insights. They show how complex a character Mrs. Gaskell has written in Cynthia.

Like you, Lucy, I am enjoying reading her writing. It rises above what could have been "soap opera."


PatH

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #351 on: February 13, 2014, 03:35:40 PM »
The picture of Cynthia shows a lot of psychological awareness for the time.  Her goal is to be liked, and she will work very hard at it.  Even more important, she finds being disapproved of extremely painful, and will run from it.  All this comes from her neglected childhood, when she was neither cared for, liked, or even wanted, with no moral support.  She isn't capable of strong affection because she has never seen it.

She is surprisingly aware of her own nature, and says she isn't a good person, but that also she isn't bad either.  Of course, she should try to behave better, but you can see why she doesn't

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #352 on: February 13, 2014, 06:33:24 PM »
Good points, Pat. And she is still young... a couple of years younger than Molly, I think. There are probably many young people in their late teens and 20s who don't have the maturity to make better choices ...even kids with loving parents.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #353 on: February 13, 2014, 06:37:00 PM »
I could be wrong...but I thought the two were the same age. 17 or 18?
Do we know anything about Molly's education - or plans for the future?

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #354 on: February 13, 2014, 06:48:44 PM »
Joan, I had thought that Molly and Cynthia were the same age but I read something the other night that made me think that Cynthia was younger. It's not important but I'll see if I can find it.

Molly was tutored at home, right? She seems very bright and several times it's mentioned that Roger helped her learn about his interests and she is borrowing books from his home. She seems to read quite a bit. I don't know if she had any "schooling" such as Cynthia had in France. It would have had to be local since she never left her father's home before going to the Hamley's.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #355 on: February 13, 2014, 06:52:06 PM »
Cynthia and Molly are the same age.  If you recall when Molly first met Clare at the age of eleven, Clare told Molly she has a daughter her same age. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #356 on: February 13, 2014, 06:55:48 PM »
Thanks, Bellamarie. I haven't found the age thing I ran across but I found some early info about Molly and her education.

Molly's father told Miss Eyre, whom he hired when Molly was 8:
"Don't teach Molly too much: she must sew, and read, and write, and do her sums; but I want to keep her a child, and if I find more learning desirable for her, I'll see about giving it to her myself. After all, I'm not sure that reading or writing is necessary. Many a good woman gets married with only a cross instead of her name; it's rather a diluting of mother-wit, to my fancy; but, however, we must yield to the prejudices of society, Miss Eyre, and so you may teach the child to read."

Miss Eyre listened in silence, perplexed but determined to be obedient to the directions of the doctor, whose kindness she and her family had good cause to know. She made strong tea; she helped the young men liberally in Mr. Gibson's absence, as well as in his presence, and she found the way to unloosen their tongues, whenever their master was away, by talking to them on trivial subjects in her pleasant homely way. She taught Molly to read and write, but tried honestly to keep her back in every other branch of education. It was only by fighting and struggling hard, that bit by bit Molly persuaded her father to let her have French and drawing lessons. He was always afraid of her becoming too much educated, though he need not have been alarmed; the masters who visited such small country towns as Hollingford forty years ago, were no such great proficients in their arts. Once a week she joined a dancing class in the assembly-room at the principal inn in the town: the "George;" and, being daunted by her father in every intellectual attempt, she read every book that came in her way, almost with as much delight as if it had been forbidden. For his station in life, Mr. Gibson had an unusually good library; the medical portion of it was inaccessible to Molly, being kept in the surgery, but every other book she had either read, or tried to read."

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #357 on: February 13, 2014, 07:07:50 PM »
Thanks for that information, Marcie.  I thought both girls were about 18 and wondered about their future plans.  Pretty clear that Cynthia will marry soon, but Molly doesn't seem to be interested in anyone- except Roger, of course...and he's taken.

No matter how I try, I can't work up sympathy for Cynthia after the way she's used Roger.  It appears that both Cynthia and mom would be happy if the boy never made it home from Africa.  
At some point, Cynthia has to stop blaming her mother's neglect and accept responsibility for her actions.  She's not a child anymore.  Next thing, Clare will be blaming her own mother for neglecting her - to explain what makes her act as she does. I'm not sure where Mrs. Gaskell will take us with this.  She seems to be courting our sympathy for poor little Cynthia to account for her actions as a grown woman.  Molly fell for it.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #358 on: February 13, 2014, 07:39:46 PM »
It was also mentioned when Cynthia was to come live with the Gibsons, about how Molly will like having someone her own age.  You probably think of Molly as younger, because she acts, and is treated younger.  Cynthia has traveled, been educated in London, and has experienced much more manipulating, calculating ways in life through the poor example of her mother.  

Gakell had me actually liking Cynthia a little bit, before she revealed Cynthia's secret, the reason for promising to marry Preston, the continued "love" letters, and the way she allowed Molly to get involved, to the point of using her to deliver not only the message she will not marry Preston, but also to give Preston the money, to make her free of her debt, and promise to him.  She was deceitful to Molly and Preston, setting up the meeting, letting Preston think she would in fact be there to meet with him, and she let Molly believe she told Preston to expect Molly to be the one to meet with him.  This was surly setting the two of them off balance, and feeling used.  

Cynthia does not strike me as carefree, lighthearted or fun-loving.  She goes to parties and balls for the purpose of being doted on, and being center of attention.  She makes a point to dance with as many men as possible.  She comes over to me as a tease, which is what Mr. Gibson warned her he may think of her, if she continues to act the way she is.  Cynthia wants everyone to like her and never disapprove of her actions, yet she does nothing to change her actions to prevent others from being disappointed in her.  Gaskell has made her like a prism, you see all these beautiful colors, yet they are ever changing with the light.  As beautiful as prisms are, they are also an illusion, which is how I see Cynthia.

I don't meant to be unkind with my feelings for Cynthia, it's just Gaskell has truly left me personally no choice, but to not like this character.  She has taken the ones who love her, care for her and befriended her, and used them with no regard for their feelings, and her solution if they find disappointment in her is to run away and never see them again.  Some have mentioned the psychological thinking of Cynthia, her solution is what Dr. Phil calls the human reaction of the 3 F's in life....Fear, Flee and Flight.  Dr. Phil also says, "You can't change, what you can't acknowledge."  Cynthia acknowledges her faults, yet refuses to even try to change.  She really could care less about others, it is all about her feelings, and her looking good in everyone's eyes.  Yes, we all may have a little of that in us, but our human nature also teaches us we can't possibly have it our way all the time, and have happiness.

Sorry for the rant.  As I said, these chapters have really troubled me.  If Gaskell in these chapters, was making one more attempt to put Cynthia in an unfavorable light with the readers, she succeeded where I am concerned.

Marcie,
Quote
Quote
It rises above what could have been "soap opera."

I'm not sure I can see it rising above a soap opera.  I see writers for soaps as talented as Gaskell and vice versa.  Writers of stories whether it be for TV, Magazines, Newspapers, Books, or any other format, I feel are worthy of their works, to be respected for their talents.  One, does not in my opinion rise above the other.  Gaskell wrote in segments, just like soaps are given in segments, and we are reading this story in segments, is what my reference was to.  NOT the caliber or quality of the material.  This is as complex a story as any soap I have ever seen, and as frustrating.   :)

JoanP., We were writing at the same time.  I agree with you!  Cynthia needs to take responsibility and stop blaming her mother.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #359 on: February 13, 2014, 08:44:17 PM »
Is it my imagination, or does  Mrs. Gibson become more laughable with each chapter.  It seems her comments were more subtle in earlier chapters.  Now they are more obvious, and more numerous too...
The first paragraph when she returned from London, a good example- You just know that there is no truth in anything that she says... She is a caricature of a mother, comic relief ...and yet she makes such hateful throwaway remarks  -

“Mrs. Gibson came back full of rose-coloured accounts of London. Lady Cumnor had been gracious and affectionate, "so touched by my going up to see her so soon after her return to England," Lady Harriet charming and devoted to her old governess, Lord Cumnor "just like his dear usual hearty self."

...and yet she makes such hateful throwaway remarks, not at all comical:

“Mrs. Kirkpatrick had showered down ball-dresses and wreaths, and pretty bonnets and mantles, like a fairy godmother. Mr. Gibson's poor present of ten pounds shrank into very small dimensions compared with all this munificence.”

ps  I wonder if Mrs. Gaskell ever published a book without having to fit the chapters into bi-monthly installments - without  having to build the suspense at  the end of each installment, Bella.