Author Topic: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online  (Read 104757 times)

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: March 31, 2014, 08:50:18 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
March Book Club Online
Blue Highways - a Journey into America
by William Least Heat-Moon


 
This should be FUN!  Whether you decide to read and discuss William Least Heat-Moon's classic 1978 travel account  or share your own memories of the "blue highways" of America, you will probably leave winter doldrums behind -  in your driveway. Heat-Moon coined the term to refer to small, forgotten, out-of-the-way roads connecting rural America (which were drawn in blue on the old style Rand McNally road atlas).

The book chronicles the author's 13,000-mile journey and the people he meets along the way, as he steers clear of cities and interstates, avoiding fast food and exploring local American culture. His book was on the NY Times’ best seller list for 42 weeks in 1982-83, and its title became a cultural code word for a journey of introspection and discovery.
  
 Some questions we'll explore:  
   *  What's left of the country stores and cafes on the old blue highways?
   *  Do you have photographs?



Discussion Schedule:
   Part One ~       March 3-7  (Eastward)  
   Part Two ~       March 8-11  (East by Southeast)  
   Part Three ~    March 12-13-14 (South by Southeast)
   Part Four ~      March 15-16-17(South by Southwest)
   Part Five ~       March 18-19-20(West by Southwest)
   Part SIX ~        March 23-24-25-26(West by Northwest)

   Part SEVEN ~   March 27-28-31(North by Northwest)
   Part EIGHT ~   April 1-3 (North by Northeast) ~ NY, VT, NH

Relevant Links:
  Least Heat Moon's route map (interactive)
  Interview with Least Heat-Moon "Be a Traveller, not a Tourist"
  Recent Interview with William Heat-Moon on Book TV
  QUOTES noted from Blue Highways

Some Topics for Discussion
 
April 1-2-3  Part VIII  North by Northeast  ~ New York, Vermont, New Hampshire

1. Do you notice the many four and five syllable names of rivers, lakes and mountains in the Northeast area of the country?  Have you visited any of these places? Is Least Heat Moon making a point by making us aware of these Indian names?

2. What did Heat Moon's old friend, Scott Chisholm (of Ojibiway and Scottish descent) and his friend, Pete Marvin/Pierangelo Masucci, have in common?
"You learn what you want to do." Can a self-made man still make it on the land today?  

3. Didn't you love Filomena, Pete's Italian mother? Do we get an idea of what life has been like for women at this time?  Is it fair to compare her life with those of Native American women who lived on the land?

4. "You've got wings on your feet," Scott Chisholm told Heat Moon. Did he seem surprised that LHM was leaving after spending happy evenings at his table with his family?  Do you think he might be hurrying back to his own home?

5.  Is Heat Moon finding opportunities to speak to the residents of  small New York towns as he drives through - Lake Oneida, Rome, the Adirondacks?  

6.  Was he more successful finding conversation in Vermont's inns, restaurants and villages?
Where did he learn about the Norman Rockwell town of Woodstock, which was described in 1761 as "unfit for habitation, except for the Indians"?  What did he learn on the  Bagleys' front porch? Or at the Woodstock Inn, owned by Laurence Rockefeller?

7. "I took my broken marriage to the highway, attempted to tuck it away for 11,000 miles." He writes of stopping in Hanover, NH and overhearing two men talking about how a baby saved a marriage.  Is this when he decided to phone the Cherokee about chances of getting back together? How did that go?

8.  Did Heat Moon ever learn how Melvin Village got its name?  What did  he learn from Marion Horner Robie, the town's big cheese, and her cousin, Tom Hunter, the sugar man, still farming the original land for seven generations?


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JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: March 31, 2014, 08:58:21 AM »
Annie, that's very interesting - your understanding of the "Tonto" reference.  Maybe he had long hair - a pony tail?  I hadn't considered the idea that Heat Moon might not have had a haircut since Dime Box, TX - remember it was the best haircut he ever had.  I immediately thought of that woman back in Oregon who commented in LHM's hearing - that "his type made her nervous."  Could she have been referring to his unkempt appearance?  Do you suppose that she too thought he looked like a "hippie"?  This was the seventies.  Hippies made a lot of people nervous back then, no?

Maybe, just maybe that's were both comments referring to.  I assumed that they were referring to his Indian appearance.  Even if they weren't, do you think Heat Moon took them as a racial slur of sorts?  He spends a lot of time referring to the American Indians and their lost land as he travels across the north.

And Callie noted his sensitivity to the race issue - Back in Chapter 3, he wrote:  "A mixed blood is a contaminated man who will be trusted by neither red nor white."

How did others understand it?

ps Callie - somehow I missed your last post until now.  Am on the way out the door right now - will read it closely when I get in - but will say that each photo has to be entered seperately - it was no trouble uploading yours when you mailed them to me, individually.
 

CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: March 31, 2014, 09:36:15 AM »
Annie,  when you visited The Cowboy Hall of Fame, "The End of The Trail" was  in a room just barely big enough to hold the huge statue.
Quoting from an Oklahoma History and Culture Encyclopedia:   Between 1991 and 1997 the original facility was renovated and an additional 140,000 square feet added, bringing the museum up to 220,000 square feet.
The statue was moved to a prominent spot in the foyer of the main building and the room where it was has become a wonderful Hands-On children's area.

https://www.nationalcowboymuseum.org/education/lesson-plans/Fraser/Fraser.aspx

Yes, I have seen the tear.

I agree that LMH probably looked like an unkempt hippie.  He doesn't write about personal details; the only bathing he mentions is done in streams or lakes and he never mentions doing laundry.  I can't find the exact reference but I think he left with less than $300.00 cash in his pocket.  He must be using a credit card to buy gas!!
Neither was he in the best of moods when he stopped in the dorm!  

The people who criticize him are all part of the "main-stream" world.     Do you think he has a prejudice, too?

Frybabe

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: March 31, 2014, 10:02:48 AM »
Okay, this connection between Blackfoot and Ojibwe is giving me a headache. What with all the different names given to the same tribes/bands and all the moving around these people endured over the years. Basically, what I got is that the Blackfoot and the Ojibwe (also known as Chippewa, Saulteaux, Anishinaabe) are considered "sister" nations because of the language similarities. The Blackfoot, as I remembered from earlier readings, is a loose confederation based on those tribes that speak the same or a dialect of same language. Both languages are part of the Algonquin language system. They are mainly settled in the same Alberta, Canada and Montana.

nlhome

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: March 31, 2014, 03:29:46 PM »
I didn't expect him to write about doing laundry or sweeping out the van or regular chores like washing up his dishes. Those weren't important to him or to the flow of the book. Obviously, where and what he ate and drank was, as were the people he saw and talked with and some of the sights and the birds.  It was a long trip, crammed into a fairly short time, and then crammed into a book. I suspect if I made that trip, I would have picked out different views and people to write about, less with food, more with scenery. Not being a native American, I probably would have had a different perspective about some of the places he visited and the history he wrote about.

He traveled rather quickly through Minnesota and Wisconsin and Michigan - I enjoyed reading about that part of the trip. We've followed Highway 2 to the middle of North Dakota and then into Montana from Wisconsin. We have ties to northern Wisconsin and the north woods  those trees can make the highway seem almost like a tunnel, especially at night when them seem to line the road closely.


ANNIE

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: March 31, 2014, 04:33:42 PM »
Fry,
Somewhere in the book, he did mention doing his laundry but I can't give a page for that.  That was the only time he mentioned doing his laundry.

Callie,
Thanks so much for the link to the new room that holds "The End of the Trail." 
I also remember seeing a western piece of art with a locomotive in it.  We later had a puzzle almost exactly like it.  Where are the Russell and Remington pieces located?  Were any of the letters included?

Someone mentioned liking Catlin.  I seem to remember one of the two R&R's knowing or specifically liking his art.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: March 31, 2014, 05:36:42 PM »
Annie,  it's been a long time since I've been to "The Hall" (as it's known locally) so I don't know about any R & R letters.  Here's a link to the Gallery in which their paintings and sculptures are located:

http://www.nationalcowboymuseum.org/research/about/galleries/artofthewest.aspx#infoartwest

Several years ago, when the Frederick Remington museum in Ogdensburg, New York was renovated, a large portion of the collection was brought to Oklahoma City while the renovation was taking place.   I remember going to see it but I regret that I don't really remember very many details.

nlhome:   I didn't expect him to write about personal details, either, and appreciate that he didn't.   :)




Frybabe

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: April 01, 2014, 08:44:04 AM »
Annie, that wasn't me mentioning the laundry. I also noticed a laundry mention, but only once and I think it was relatively early on.

I'm now in Vermont. Seems to me I had comments or a question regarding the NY portion of his trip, but I didn't write it down last night, so naturally, I forgot it. Sigh!

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: April 01, 2014, 09:20:56 AM »
Here's a photo of young Bill Trogdon  - difficult to find -


I can  imagine him, with his dark complexion - add some facial hair, and long hair (maybe even a pony tail) - can see either an "unkempt hippie" - OR if in a part of the country where there are still Indians, then I can see him taken as an Indian as well.  We really don't know much about him, do we...  except that a great great great white grandaddy made his way to Missouri, married into an Osage family there.  After that, we know nothing more about his background and subsequent grandparents - except that he considered himself a "half-breed"...

Quote
"The people who criticize him are all part of the "main-stream" world.     Do you think he has a prejudice, too?"
I think that's a very good question, Callie.  If not "prejudice" at least a strong sensitivity, expecting the half-breed designation he has grown up with to follow him around the country-expecting prejudice when none was intended.

Quote
"Not being a native American, I probably would have had a different perspective about some of the places he visited and the history he wrote about." nlhome
 Exactly!  I have to say that I never met - or even saw anyone who was a Native American, until making a trip to the west and northwest, years ago.  And those I met, didn't look at all as those I had seen in paintings.  

Thanks for those links to museums and artists.  We have a relatively new Native American museum in DC - I was there when it first opened, was not yet completed - but have heard from so many that it is worth a return trip.  Have any of you ever visited?  National Museum of the American Indian - Washington, DC


Quote
"He traveled rather quickly through Minnesota and Wisconsin and Michigan."nlhome

I notice increasing irritability and a growing impatience as he sped through those states too.  Sadness too.  The only conversation I remember was that with the teenage runaway.  He seemed really interested in her father and his unfulfilled dreams, I thought.
What did he miss abouut these places, nlhome? Please do share some of your memories.  When is the best time of the year to visit?

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: April 01, 2014, 09:40:03 AM »
Marcie's memory is the same as mine regarding SeniorNet's connection to the Learning Centers on reservations.  The only volunteer book donations were ours, the SeniorNet Books, which abruptly ended when the web site went down, never to be restored.  The Learning Centers on reservations continue, but they show only sponsorship with IBM now.  
The Native American Learning Centers are still listed but I don't know if the list is completely up to date. Some of the other info on the website is not. There is a list of learning centers on the SeniorNet website at http://www.seniornet.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=725&Itemid=94
It would be interesting to know how these centers are operating today.

Time to begin the North by Northeast section of the country today - New York, Vermont and New Hampshire.   Maybe we'll jog your memory for your lost thought, Fry-  Did it have anything to do with the fact that the friend he spends time with in New York was of Ojibiway descent?


Frybabe

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: April 01, 2014, 10:40:54 AM »
Quote
Did it have anything to do with the fact that the friend he spends time with in New York was of Ojibiway descent?
No, JoanP, I don't think so. I do remember the encounter he had with the local police in Woodstock (?), Vermont, though. He either has not written the whole conversation with inquisitive people and authority, or he is not at all forthcoming about his intentions. Some people he did confide in, but for the most part, especially with cops, he seems to be less than forthcoming. He only seems to state his immediate needs or interest, and rather snarkily at times, but not why he is traveling the way he is.

Which brings up a question. Did he say he planned to write a book about his travel at the beginning? I don't remember seeing it. I know he took notes and pictures along the way, but was that a habit of his in case of an opportunity (something I might expect from a photojournalist or writer) or was it a definite plan to write a book?

ANNIE

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #331 on: April 01, 2014, 10:49:02 AM »
Since I am trying to follow LMH in my atlas, I must say that I haven't been able to find Chesire or Canandaigua Lake.  My blues are now reds using his route numbers.  Well, he wasn't particularly interested in Michigan.  So I followed him through Ontario and found him back in the states just north of Niagara Falls.  And "Revisited" has a picture of the Hill Cumorah Monument on Rt 21.  At the very top of the monument stands the angel, Moroni, the angel who Joseph Smith said delivered to him in 1827 the golden plates from which The Book of Mormon was translated.

LMH then follows Rt 31 to the Erie Canal in Lyons,NY.
 
The next pictures in "Revisited" are of The Cato Hotel, Cato,NY on Rt 370 and Goettel Community Part, Cato, NY on Rt 370.  LHM''  next stop was at Ben and Bernies Diner off Rt 49.  Here one could look out over Lake Oneida where LHM writes that many of the homes on the north shore of the lake "were losing to the North climate, an for miles it was a place of sag and dilapidation".  "Revisited" says "in 2008 I saw only handsome homes along the lake."
 
Next stop is Fort Stanwix National Monument, Rome,NY on Rts 49 and 46.  I am really glad that I checked out "Revisited" as the author says that "when LHM went through the area in 1978, urban renewal in and around made the city look like "London in 1946".  "Revisited" comments, "The Fort once provided protection for the Oneida Carrying Place, the route for trade between the Atlantic and Lake Ontario.  It now offers a beautiful green historical park in the heart of Rome, NY."  Looks worth visiting if one is in the area.  

Our daughter lives in Ithaca, NY and we visited the Seneca Falls "National Women's Hall of Fame" back in the 90's.  There is so much history in the state of NY,  one can travel just about anywhere there and find history and historical sites.  Beautiful state.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #332 on: April 01, 2014, 11:37:55 AM »
There is a wonderful picture of Fort Ticonderoga and Lake Champlain as seen from Mt Defiance off NY Rt 74 along with a paragraph of history of the importance of the strategic location of the Fort.

I am now off the Ticonderoga ferry and in Vermont.  Back to our book.

About that pic, JoanP, I don't think LHM looks unkempt in it but he probably looked unkempt while on his journey.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #333 on: April 01, 2014, 01:12:04 PM »
I found these web sites about the "mystics" he mentions along with Joseph Smith in New York.

Jemima Wilkinson:   http://www.yatescounty.org/upload/12/historian/friend.html

The Fox Sisters:  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-fox-sisters-and-the-rap-on-spiritualism-99663697/?no-ist

Annie, I found Canandaigua Lake but it was labeled in teeny letters.   I'm also following him in an Atlas and notice that he is using fewer blue roads as he nears the end of his journey.  However, sometimes, it's because the Blue Highway blends into a red one.

Frybabe,  in Chapter 5 of my edition, he shows a sketch of Ghost Dancing and lists the contents he's taking along.  Included:  "a satchel of notebooks, pens, road atlas and a microcassette recorder (and a) Nikon F2 35mm camera and fine lenses.".




nlhome

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #334 on: April 01, 2014, 01:38:26 PM »
The hard back copy of the book I read had a full picture of him, standing, on the back of the dust jacket. He looked solid and stocky.

I think the road through the Wisconsin north woods and over toward Green Bay has a lot to offer. My memories are of trees, everywhere trees, so no long vistas. Also, there are many lakes, just as there are in Minnesota. What did he miss? - probably nothing, but perhaps he likes the open areas and the "open road" which unless a person is on the Interstate, is not so open in the far north. Some people mentioned the stops at bars - they are much closer together in Wisconsin. But he had the young girl with him, and he didn't need to stop for conversation.

The pace of the Great Lakes area and the NE is quicker, maybe than the south. I don't know. It just seemed as though he hurried more up there.

CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #335 on: April 01, 2014, 03:54:34 PM »
Corrections to previous post:

Annie, I didn't find the lake in an Atlas; it was on the road map of New York State that our tour guide gave us during the New England tour.

Frybabe,  he didn't take "fine" lenses; he took five (5).

Question #7 (his call to The Cherokee):    Here we go again!   After the phone call, he writes,  "I went off looking for insight (but) all I got was desolation."
I wonder what her side of the story would be?

Is it harder for a person to emotionally let go of a spouse who leaves than it is for a person whose spouse dies? (When the ex-husband of a friend died, she said,  "Now, I am a widow" - even though he had been remarried for more than 20 years)


CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #336 on: April 01, 2014, 04:18:25 PM »
Here's a picture of Horseshoe Falls I took while having breakfast on the top floor of a hotel in Niagara Falls, Ontario.  I thought of it when I read what LMH wrote about crossing into New York after driving 250 miles across Ontario in heavy rain: "...the Canadian sun turned the eastern cliffs orange."


ANNIE

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #337 on: April 01, 2014, 05:15:48 PM »
Electric!  Callie.  Your pic would just fit right in with the "Revisited" photos.  In fact, it would a very nice addition to that book.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Frybabe

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #338 on: April 01, 2014, 06:35:05 PM »
Annie, Canandaigua Lake is the fourth largest of the Finger Lakes. The city of Canandaiqua is at the northern end along the current route 20.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7536969,-77.2929378,11z

ANNIE

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #339 on: April 01, 2014, 09:27:48 PM »
Thanks, Fry!  I should have recognized the name of it as one of my California drs inherited his mother's property on Canandaigua Lake and he moved his practice to that area in 1989.   And, of course, since my daughter lives on Cayuga Lake, another of the Finger Lakes,  I found Canandaigua.  I do love that area of New York State!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #340 on: April 02, 2014, 12:23:39 AM »
OH my what a dramatic photo of Horseshoe Falls - the falls with all its power seems dwarfed - marvelous.

Having seen several photos of the author and knowing he has and sometimes uses an English name - he not only looks like his English and Irish heritage, I bet his being hired as a professor was because he looked like other "white" men - I wonder when he started to use his Osage name - He does not sound like he has a strong relationship with his tribe - I am having a difficult time seeing him as a Native American writer in the genre of N. Scott Momaday, Leslie Marmon Silko, Charles Alexander Eastman, John Joseph Mathews 1/8th Osage, Diane Glancy, or my favorite who writes mostly poetry Jo Harjo - oh yes, I forgot Louise Erdrich - several of these writers are of mixed blood and yet, full blooded or mixed none of them use their Indian name.  

Why would a guy go back a couple of generations and start to use a name that was attributed to someone in their family tree when they were named at birth with a different name. A women doing this I understand - we really do not own a name after we marry and then if divorced it is a game of dice as to what name you choose to use. Or as a writer men and women use pseudonym but this writer actually uses this Osage name as a legal name or maybe we do not have the whole story and it is useful to use this name as an author.

It is easy enough to blame the place in life he finds himself as the reason for his depressive attitudes - but then, you have to wonder which came first the chicken or the egg - I've been fighting this aspect of the book trying to finish it - the trip and many of the characters he writes about are wonderful vignettes of America showing the attitudes in various pockets of this nation but he is not a cheerful soul and he reminds me of the old saying about a howling dog - they howl at anything including the moon but never do anything more than howl - I guess driving around the nation is at least getting him out of a barcalounge in some isolated apartment.

I am not even sure I know what he hoped to achieve - he did not look into his Osage roots and so what was this all about - Never did read Jack Kerouac's On the Road which may be a prototype for this book both being nothing more than a travel book with some philosophy about life thrown in - the road being a metaphor for each of our lives and how we react in various circumstances is similar to how we react when life throws us a time like, his traveling through Montana, where loneliness was his reaction to a baron period in his life just as he reacted similarly to the baron landscape. Even more, he was the one who saw the landscape as baron - some of us are thrilled seeing all that sky and miles and miles of grasses in various shades from bleached tan, dove grey, khaki to various wine reds.

It sure fits him as he tried to skedaddle away with few folks to chat with and a flat windswept landscape - is that it - after his divorce he feels much like this scenery and his friends became as taciturn as those living in the great northwest so he skedaddled away on this road trip trying to fill his life with purpose and new however, temporary, contacts...?

Yep, William Least Heat-Moon both annoys me and is a head scratchier to me of what he is trying to achieve in his life taking this trip. Maybe there is nothing deeper than accumulating material to write this book. Whatever, his disposition is a spoiler everytime I pick up on the next phase of his travels. After a read I have to go in to my motivational blog so I can get back to thinking with a grateful heart.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ANNIE

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #341 on: April 02, 2014, 12:56:59 AM »
For you, Barbara.  Here's the reason for the change in his name.


Born William Trogdon, in Kansas City, Mo., Least Heat-Moon found his pen name early on, when his scoutmaster father, of Osage descent, christened himself “Heat Moon,” William’s brother “Little Heat Moon” and William “Least Heat Moon.” (The hyphen, he says, came later, after he’d been addressed as “Mr. Moon” one too many times.)
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #342 on: April 02, 2014, 02:45:25 AM »
aha Pen Name - and Osage descent - thanks Ann  - So it is a pseudonym - sounds like a tie to his father and some strong memories that tightens the ties between father and his two sons. But is also suggests there are not strong ties to the Osage.

I am sure I have expectations of someone who uses a Native American name that the writing will be in the genre of the writing of most First Nation authors. He really cannot write from the viewpoint of someone close to their tribal roots because it appears he had a more typical boyhood experienced by most middle class white youngsters. OK mystery cleared up - thanks again Ann
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #343 on: April 02, 2014, 01:05:01 PM »
Callie, a glorious photograph - and a glorious place, isn't it?  My husband played in a Softball tournament in Ontario at Niagra Falls.  We stayed in a motel with the rest of the team...supposedly with a view, but the gorge in front was so deep, we had no view.  When the tournament was over, Bruce surprised me with a night in the Radisson Hotel which had a "glorious" view of the falls.  I don't remember the light that you and Heat-Moon saw but do remember rainbows...more than one.

nlhome is right, the pace is quicker as he goes through the Great Lakes area and the New England states too.  Is it because he finds less opportunities for conversation - or because he is in a hurry to reach home.  The conversations he does have are revealing though- they tie in to the changing landscape as he notes the disappearance of the old homesteads and ways.

 I took particular notice of Pete Marvin/Pierangelo Masucci, his wife and especially his mother, Filomena, Fanny - as well as old friend Scott Chisholm  (of Ojibiway and Scottish descent) and his family.  The fact that Heat Moon already knew Scott meant they spoke more freely to one another, don't you think?
"You learn what you want to do." Can a self-made man still make it on the land today? 

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #344 on: April 02, 2014, 01:28:24 PM »
Quote
"Since I am trying to follow LMH in my atlas, I must say that I haven't been able to find Chesire or Canandaigua Lake" Callie

Just by coincidence - before reading this, Callie, I was watching this Interview with William Heat-Moon on Book TV (3hours) in which he revealed that when he was writing Blue Highways, he envisioned the reader sitting in a chair, with a dictionary on one side, the Atlas on the other.

Barbara, it was your questions which had me searching for more on the author's background.  As fun as it is reliving our old associations with the places he visits...I feel the book is turning into Heat-Moon's story - autobiographical...almost.  Do you feel that way - or is it just me?  He did not mean it that way!  He says he wanted to write about OTHER PEOPLE.

   When I found the Interview with William Heat-Moon on Book TV (3hours) I got lost in it for the first 49 minutes and now have it paused.  It is a really wonderful interview...I hope you are able to watch it.

Among the many subjects he talks about - his Native American heritage - "only a dollop of Osage Indian"...though he could not have written the book without drawing on his Osage background."
~ His motive for the trip - his life was in shambles, had doctorate, but no job, had built a house and got booted out, was "emotionally trampled down, withdrawn, egocentric...
~ He did think he might find stories when he went on the road - stories that he'd be able to sell.  Had never considered a book till he got home...

Fry, in this interview he also talks about his River-Horse,- I know you are planning to read that in the near future.

As I said, I'm only 49 minutes into the interview and plan to watch to the end - see you back here tonight!   I hope you consider watching it - at least some of it.  It really is fascinating.

CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #345 on: April 02, 2014, 01:47:37 PM »
Joan,  I think seeing the morning light on the Falls was just a stroke of luck in that I just happened to be seated by the window while our tour group was having breakfast at the top of the hotel on the morning we left and crossed the bridge into New York.
(Do I get an award for the longest sentence in the discussion?  ;D

Barb,  having a Native American pen name would sell more books, too.  <she said cynically>

A self-made man might be able to make it if he is willing to live a simpler existence and has a wife like Pete Marvin has!
 
When they moved to the vineyard country, SHE "lifted, climbed and held while Pete measured cut and drilled holes for HER to drive the nails home". 
Then HE moved them to a chicken farm (more carpentry) and SHE worked along with him in a factory until HE couldn't stand it and THEY started farming full time.  That didn't satisfy HIM - and now  "WE play at farming".  So, he says, ""...happy in retirement with garden, wild food, orchard - and "a grocery in the cellar with what (HIS WIFE) has put up."  SHE also washed the barn insides every day, rides on the back of the tractor and says, "Where he go and work, I go." 
 SHE certainly did!!!!
 I suspect she also did the laundry, the cooking and the housecleaning.

Hmmm....wonder if this attitude is what LMH unrealistically expected of the Cherokee?

Frybabe

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #346 on: April 02, 2014, 02:02:47 PM »
Wow, JoanP. I've bookmarked the interview for later. I'll see if I can find it on the BookTV link on my Roku. Otherwise, I will watch it on the computer later, or tomorrow.

Okay, so that is what I was wanting to know - if he had a book in mind at the beginning or took his writing materials and camera with him in case something came to mind. So he had an idea finding something, he didn't know what exactly, to write about that might bring in some income.

I am in Vermont right now. He is staying over for a few days. It amazes me that he told the cop in NY (?) he didn't want to stay at a motel, he lives in his van, but he gets to Vermont and spends money for a place there. I know he only started this trek with $300 and he made a few bucks on the Outer Banks helping load fish, but I am thinking he had access to more somewhere along the line. The gas and diner fare would have been gone by now I would think. But then, things were less expensive then, so $300 would have gone farther.

Cat has decided it is time to eat. (claws in knee, ouch! ouch!).

salan

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #347 on: April 02, 2014, 06:43:33 PM »
I agree with you, Barb.  He does seem rather self-absorbed, doesn't he?  He focuses more on people than places & is always seeking conversation.  He's lonely and seeks out companionship, yet the journey he chose to take was a solitary one.  He seemed to seek out bars for conversation.  I am surprised he didn't get into any bar fights.  I have just finished north by northwest and am moving on. 

Sally

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #348 on: April 02, 2014, 08:29:09 PM »
According to the inflation calculator -  What cost $300 in 1972 would cost $1648.32 in 2013. Gas in 1972 was still $.36 so that today if gas had simply increased in value with inflation is should be $1.98 in 2013

His trip was 13,000 miles - from what I can find a Ford van in 1972 - we do not know how old - but using the Ford van 1971 it got 12-17 mpg. Lets say it gets 15 mpg -  ;) the math is easier - that's 867 gallons using the $.36 He spent $312. on gas - coffee was still a nickle a cup however, he had some repairs on the van and back then photographs meant the cost of film and processing.  The average income in 1972 was less then 10,000 a year $9,something. He may have just squeezed through if he earned another $220 so that he had a tad over $200 for food, van repair and incidentals.

Found a photo of a 1971 Ford Van - http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/CC-178-078-950.jpg

I can see why he did not want to stay in a motel in NY the cost would have been more than he could handle where as in Vermont it would probably be next to nothing. Wait found it in 1972 a Motel 8 cost $8.88

Whew JoanP 3 hours - Holy Hannah - I will attempt bits at a time however thanks for finding this - sounds like lots of answers explaining his viewpoint.

I wonder if this is the same interview - since we can read a lot faster than someone can speak I may be able to read this in far less then the 3 hours - http://artfuldodge.sites.wooster.edu/content/william-least-heat-moon

 ;) :o Callie I too was thinking cynical and trying to cover it with ahum 'innocent curiosity'... ah so... I think his New England work ethic is how he measured the Cherokee forgetting they were very successful farmers in the southeast before they were forced off their land where farming did not entail the hard scrubbed life of a New England farmer however, in the dry OK landscape they had very different land and weather challenges along with many other challenges.

I always admired how Cherokee villages were either a red or white village. The government and protection for anyone in a white village was predicated on peace where as a red village trained their young men for war.  A medicine chief would resolve disputes between the Red Chief and White Chief should they disagree.

The idea that there were entire villages established for peaceful living within a culture that acknowledged a war like nature that is also accommodated is an amazing bit of social philosophy among those we considered an ignorant people. And yes, it all came to an end with Andrew Jackson wanted an end to the Indian wars among the Red Stick villages (war clubs painted red)and so with those Creeks and Cherokee supporting the US government a way of life was defeated in 1814.

From the written interview with Least Heat-Moon I get the impression searching for his native roots was not most important, that he was very impressed reading as a younger man Travels with Charley - He talks about loneliness - I think to me that was making a mountain out of a molehill but than, as a young wife and mother living far from my family I refused loneliness and filled my life. So the idea of giving into loneliness to me is just not living a very creative life with all there is to admire, and learn and see - In fact when I first felt so isolated I would rail how I was educated in the same way as guys who left their home each day for their work - no one prepared me for the isolation but, like most of us in the 1950s we took ourselves in hand and made our own life. And so justifying loneliness because another author of a travel book also spoke of loneliness hit me as wimpy. And no, Dime Box never became a tourist attraction as he imagined.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #349 on: April 02, 2014, 09:21:41 PM »
Barbara,  nice to know another....ummmm...skeptic?   :D  

Although I agree with you that the tribes who were "removed" from their ancestral homes to what became Oklahoma had many hardships and challenges,  I must respectfully disagree with your comment that  , in the dry OK landscape (the Cherokee) had very different land and weather challenges

The Cherokee Nation is in the northeastern corner of Oklahoma, which is very similar to their former home.  This area is known as Green Country and this is the geographic description from that web site:   Tumbling rivers, expansive lakes, tallgrass prairie and rolling green hills are the hallmarks of this lush region, rich in culture and verdant grandeur.

For a glimpse of early Cherokee life in Oklahoma, browse through the  Adams Corner links in this website:  http://www.cherokeeheritage.org/attractions/general-store/






BarbStAubrey

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #350 on: April 02, 2014, 10:01:16 PM »
Thanks Callie - reminds me of Arkansas Ouachita area where I have been - both are similar to the Cherokee National Forest except the Smoky Mountains are the neighbors to the Cherokee National Forest - I am thinking of the many who when they arrived in OK were hoodwinked out of their land and there are many that ended up in the dryer part of the state that did not and does not seem to exist where they came from. All in all there was a great change to the culture and I was not seeing that Least Heat-Moon spoke to those changes to understand better the Cherokee in OK.  

I guess we all do it - see life through our eyes based on what we have learned during our lifetime - As a professor and a writer who does as much research as he explained in the written interview and having been married to a lady from the Cherokee nation I was looking for more. More understanding and more in-depth views and more references to the Cherokee culture and mostly, more passionate interest but then he is really not researching his native American roots so I bet he made sure his book showed an evenness of curiosity as he described each encounter.  

Aha that is it - he describes and has great encounters, he is curious and what I like to see is someone who is passionate about their curiosities and encounters. Come to think of it he really speaks to what he considers the quirkiness within his various encounters. But then there is this dang overlay of depression that according to the interview he seems to think is loneliness - gads I would not want to be in his skin.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #351 on: April 03, 2014, 09:26:27 AM »
Ha!  You had me going there for a minute, Barb! If that's what LHM's Econoline van looked like, I can see why he might have come across as an aging hippie!



  Moon's was a 1975 Econoline - three years old in 1978- with worn tires and a faulty water pump.  I'm not sure of the paint job - but that was definitely not the same van!  :D
Here's the  Interior of Ghost Dancing interior - note the boy scout locker

 
-

Heat-Moon and his dad


JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #352 on: April 03, 2014, 09:50:28 AM »
Definitely not the same interview, Barb. There is much more of what was on Heat-Moon's frame of mind when he wrote Blue Highways in the  recent Interview with William Heat-Moon on Book TV ,  Really, you don't need to watch him for three hours...In the first 45 minutes he describes his his frame of mind when he left MO.  He's more than lonely on this trip - very depressed as some of you have noted.  His life he tells, was "in shambles," he was "emotionally trampled down," "withdrawn, egocentric"...
I put the link in the heading so you can take a look when time permits.  

He is very forthcoming  in this interview -could be he's had more time to think about it since the actual trip?
Though he still hasn't much to say about his wife...except that the marriage had fallen apart - was in shambles.  It occurred to me that he might have had an agreement with her not to go into their relationship - and that might explain why he didn't include more references to her Cherokee background in this book.  He does say she was of mixed blood.   In the interview he tells how he sent the prepublication copies of the book to all of those interviewed, giving them the opportunity to edit what he had written.  He may have done the same with the Cherokee...He does say she was stunningly beautiful... :D

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #353 on: April 03, 2014, 10:18:13 AM »
  
Quote
"He does seem rather self-absorbed, doesn't he?  He focuses more on people than places & is always seeking conversation.  

Sally, yes, I noticed the same thing in the beginning and through much of the trip --and  in the interview too that LHM refers to himself as "egocentric" when he starts the trip.  Actually, I think the fact that he is seeking conversation while in this depressed state - is a good thing?  He seems to be listening to others, not looking for solace, but rather a reaching out to others.  He could have used his old friend, Scott Chisholm as a sounding board...dwelt on  his problems.  Instead, he asked not to be entertained but worked his rear end off helping to build that 20 foot rock wall - in a day!  My neighbors had a stone wall put across the front yard...took the guy nearly a month to do it!

All along, he seems dismayed  by what has become of the land, once the white man has introduced "civilization."  That would be enough to depress anyone.  And the trip is almost over!  But there's something in these last chapters through the New England towns - where I sense the possibility, the hope,  that all change isn't bad.  Which lake was it...where the homes were built, strung out,  blocking beach access to the public...whereas on the opposite shore, the homes were clustered in towns, leaving the beach free to others.  Change can be a good thing if people work together - and are considerate of one another.  The possibility of good change seems to be introduced when people consider more than themselves.   Are you noticing that? Maybe he will take this to heart?

CallieOK

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #354 on: April 03, 2014, 10:54:02 AM »
I read the print interview link last night.  Here's what he had to say about population centers:

DB: Do you feel there are too many people clogging up the Blue Highwaysnow, trying to imitate you?

Least Heat-Moon: No, not at all. They're still largely empty of traffic, but the thing that disturbs me about them is the sprawling out of America everywhere along them. I fear our notion that we can build wherever we want. I really wish that, as we move into the countryside, we would consider clustering much more than we do. Let's not string out along the roads. Let's cluster in pockets.

DB: That does run counter, though, to the very American feeling of, as Daniel Boone said, "I want to move where I don't see the smoke from my neighbor's chimney."

Least Heat-Moon: I am a living contradiction in terms. My values will not meet there. I'm a hypocrite in that what I want for others is not what I want for myself. But just face it, that's the way it is. I want everybody else to cluster, but I want to be free to take off by myself. Nasty man.

ginny

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #355 on: April 03, 2014, 12:14:56 PM »
hahaha, Callie. I love your comment.


Least Heat-Moon: No, not at all. They're still largely empty of traffic, but the thing that disturbs me about them is the sprawling out of America everywhere along them. I fear our notion that we can build wherever we want. I really wish that, as we move into the countryside, we would consider clustering much more than we do. Let's not string out along the roads. Let's cluster in pockets.

DB: That does run counter, though, to the very American feeling of, as Daniel Boone said, "I want to move where I don't see the smoke from my neighbor's chimney."

Least Heat-Moon: I am a living contradiction in terms. My values will not meet there. I'm a hypocrite in that what I want for others is not what I want for myself. But just face it, that's the way it is. I want everybody else to cluster, but I want to be free to take off by myself. Nasty man.


That's the first thing I noticed when I went to Europe, the clustering of houses making a city, I thought it was  to free up the land for farming. Why do people cluster in cities, anyway?

It's not about what HE wants, is it? The people have the same freedom he does, to do as they wish.

And what an interesting statement, Pearson, about his method of communication, too and what he might be looking for. Maybe he's one of these people who looks to tell YOU what he thinks, and doesn't actually take in the listening part at all. If that's the case why has he written down the conversations, to hope to find meaning?

I think the "conversations" he has are very interesting.

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #356 on: April 03, 2014, 12:27:28 PM »
Ginny...we've been looking down (up) the road for you... Hoping to hear your thoughts on Heat-Moon's  conversation with Pete  Marvin(Masucci)...his farm, his vineyard...

I saw his comments on clustering, as meaning the growing population was going to have make  sacrifices, live closer together in clusters, in order to preserve open land.  At the same time, as Callie just pointed out, he admits that the individual is less inclined to do this, the natural inclination is to spread out.  It would take a group effort to realize that we're running out of real estate...  Change is possible, but is it likely to happen?

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #357 on: April 03, 2014, 12:54:42 PM »
A factor not spoken to by the author, once west of the Mississippi water is a huge factor and in order to have enough from a well to serve a household, at least in our area west of Austin, you need an acre or more of land. The expense of land for a house is a factor that since WWII meant a significant house to warrant the best use for the land.

It was only in the twentieth century we had a national effort to dam up large rivers in order to control and channel water which allowed homes to be built in clusters creating a community but breaking that mind set of a hundred years of spreading out had been in the culture - I find as an agent it is only in the last 10 years that the typical young homebuyer is not having that discussion that often was heated about a house on 5 or at least 2 acres versus, the wife wanting to be in a subdivision. And now if folks want to move to areas within driving distance but out of town they must be able to afford at least a $400,000 house because there is no municipal water. Lenders use a ratio of land value to required house value.

If this is true here in the Austin area I cannot imagine we are the only place that lack of water is an issue and that is probably the explanation for our emotional attachment to build spread out - even back east I bet there were many homes on wells and only those communities that found a way to collect water to service a town were able to cluster buildings.

Now that would be interesting to find out the first towns that had municipal water and how they did it - was it collected - I know there are lakes that are reservoirs - did they first start by piping water from a lake - were all towns served by a reservoir - I know here we have many a town with a water tower that is water stored from a combo well and rain. And I learned when hiking in Mexico that families settled first on rivers because it is a source of water so that if you are lost always look for and follow a stream or river.

We really cannot just organize where folks live without looking at how and the expense to providing them with water and in many parts of the west electricity was not strung into rural areas till the 1930s but folks can get along successfully without electricity but they must have water. I would want more information about the age of those houses strung out on the beach versus the age of the town across the lake and how they supply water to both sets of houses - I am not ready to buy into the idea that the houses were built with the intent to block the beach from public use - it could be but I would want more information before making that conclusion.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #358 on: April 03, 2014, 01:11:16 PM »
ah so a very respectable looking Van JoanP - I thought this was taking place a bit earlier in the 70s - but again his Boy Scout roots pop up - maybe we should be considering how the Boy Scouts in the 60s and 70s described Native Americans to get a handle on his association with his heritage  ;) And what is all this with facial hair - not exactly the look of a fellow with his sur name  ::)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanP

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Re: Blue Highways by William Least Heat-Moon ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #359 on: April 03, 2014, 08:01:31 PM »
I thought it was interesting that Heat Moon said, somewhere, that his father called him Least Heat Moon from the time he was a Boy Scout...and the photo on his trunk is labelled Bill Trogdon, Barb.  Let us know what you find if you decide to research the Boy Scouts...
photo of trunk - bottom right

Meanwhile, back on the road - Heat-Moon is really good about thinking of questions to total strangers that will lead him right into the living rooms of the most knowledgable people in town -  He stopped for a grinder at a snack bar in Melvin Village, New Hampshire.  He probably knew most people in the village wouldn't know where the name came from. "Who is Melvin?"  This question took him right to the home of 80 year old Marion Horner Robie, the town's "biggest cheese" who can answer any question about life in this village.  Do you remember what she told him about change here over the years?