I Always Loved you by Robin Oliveira~ June Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

June Book Club Online

I ALWAYS LOVED YOU: A NOVEL
by Robin Oliveira

This should be FUN!  With the Internet at our fingertips, we'll be able to examine each of the artworks described here  by  the new talent, Robin Oliveira! This is from a recent Seattle Times review: "Degas is tempestuous, sardonic and witty.  But the focus is squarely on Mary, working on unfinished paintings, washing her brushes, reeking of turpentine, collaborating with Degas on a journal of etchings, thinking about “the essential talent of seeing.” Mary Cassatt comes alive as disciplined, socially acute, outspoken and stoic in facing down her self-doubt."

Related links:
Vocabulary Help
National Gallery of Art Exhibition of Degas/Cassatt paintings
Portrait of Mary Ellison ~ Mary Cassatt
Mary Cassatt's many paintings
Links to Impressionist Art discussed in this book
Interview with Robin Oliveira concerning those letters

Discussion Schedule: June 1-2    1926                Prologue June 3-6      1877              Chapters One - Nine  June 7-13    1877 cont.     Chapters Ten - Nineteen  June 14-16  1878              Chapters Twenty - Twenty Six                June 17-22 1879               Chapters Twenty Seven - Thirty Five June 23-27 1880               Chapters Thirty Six - Forty Four June 28-30  1881-3           Chapters Forty Five - Fifty Three   June 28-  Chapters Forty Five - Fifty Three  1881-83   1.  Sixth Impressionist Exhibition: "Mary Cassatt's work exceeded anything she ever did."  What did she enter into the 1881 exhibition?  Do you have any favorite Cassatt paintings from the later years? 2.  Everything had changed with Edgar, though  they saw one another on a regular basis. Is the sexual tension completely gone? 3.  "She did not think about Edgar, though of course she did."   What is the meaning  of this observation?   That she isn't over him? 4.  Do you think Ms. Oliveira used Berthe Morisot and Eduard Manet's affair as an example of what Mary Cassatt and Edgar Degas were  trying to avoid? 5.  "Had she given in and allowed herself to become hopelessly entangled..."  Isn't that what we all do when we marry? Is it the state of matrimony  that they both fear? 6.  What do you know of the Dreyfus Affair?  Was this the real reason leading to the estrangement between Mary Cassatt and Degas? 7.  What did you think of Degas' response to Julie Manet's question why he didn't marry Mary - Was their problem simply one of communication? Or something more than that? "Why didn't he know if Mary loved him?  Why doesn't Mary know if he loves her? 8.  In a way, did the little dancer represent  their broken, neglected relationship?  What became of her?  Did anyone rescue her? Discussion Leader:  Joan P

[JoanP]

Pat, I'm learning more about the little dancer - surprised to learn that the wax figure we have right here in the National Gallery is the ORIGINAL beeswax figure!  What are seen in museums around the world are bronze cast from the original.

These two sites tell the story of what became of Degas' collection of crumbling wax figures at his death.  (I'm surprised that anyone but Degas was able to reconstruct those sinews and muscles...}

http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb/Collection/highlights/highlight110292.html
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Dancer_of_Fourteen_Years

"After Degas's death, his heirs (brother and sister's children[2]) made the decision to have the bronze repetitions of Le Petite Danseuse and other wax and mixed-media sculptures cast. The casting took place at the Hébrard foundry in Paris from 1920 until the mid-20th century.
 Sixty-nine of Degas's wax sculptures survived the casting process

The original wax sculpture was acquired by Paul Mellon in 1956. Beginning in 1985, Mr and Mrs Mellon gave the National Gallery of Art 49 Degas waxes, 10 bronzes and 2 plasters, the largest group of original Degas sculptures. Little Dancer was among the bequests.

[JoanP]

Were you interested to learn that even with the corrections Degas made to his little dancer, she was still not well-received by the art world.  When did this sculpture receive the positive acclaim she enjoys today?  Was it after his death?

Can we back up in time - the period following that 1881 exhibit?  Apparently Mary and Degas still see one another - he attends intimate Cassatt family gatherings - funerals.  Must this have been uncomfortable for either one of them?
 
 Robin writes -

"Everything had changed with Edgar, though  they saw one another on a regular basis."

(Is the sexual tension completely gone?}

"She did not think about Edgar, though of course she did."  

Does this mean she isn't over him?

[bellamarie]

Thank you PatH., and JoanP., for answering my question, and for the link providing this pic.  She is absolutely beautiful!  I tried to insert the pic but I just don't seem to be able to.  Thank you JoanP., for the pic, the bronze statue if stunning, but the wax seems more the original and able to feel the work Degas put into it.

Knowing indeed the little dancer was broken, it makes this part of the story even more bittersweet.  Degas was obsessed with creating this statue.  Mary could see what this masterpiece meant to him.  I felt Mary wanted Degas to love her, as much as he loved this statue, yet in the end his love for either the little dancer or Mary, did not bring him or her joy.  It had to break Mary's heart all over again seeing the condition of the statue.

Seeing the pic brings only one thought to mind:

Mary saying to Degas,  "She is standing there in all her glory."

I think the sexual tension was no longer there between Mary and Degas.  After the love making, and the hurt, I feel it rather distinguished it, but I do feel that Mary loved him in a special way forever.  Hence the title...."I Always Loved You"  The last kiss Degas gives to Mary is his final good-bye, just as Mary said to Jeanne, when she asked:  

"Don't you want to say good-bye?"

"I already did."

"Are you all right?"

"Not at all,"  Mary said, and kissed the girl on the cheek, then picked her way to the bottom of the stairs, where Mathilde and the chauffeur were waiting to take her back to Mesnil, alone.

                             If this were a play, it's where the curtain would close, the audience would applause, and then maybe sit in silence a few minutes before leaving, pondering on what could have been.  I think this book would make a splendid movie.

[bellamarie]

Oooops....I meant to say I think it "extinguished"  the sexual tensions not distinguished.  Ughhhh.....

[bellamarie]

pedln   Maybe you can read some of the book on your computer on your plane ride to Seattle.  Have a safe trip.  Thank you for your kind words,  I especially like this:

“If we put our troubles in a pot, and then passed the pot around, we'd pull out what we had put in.  

DIL's mother has had vision problems for several years, can't drive anymore. She told her daughter she would rather have my rotten knees and mobility problems instead.  My eyes are now my ears, and I don't  know how I would be if that was reversed.

I am glad you do not have to know the reverse.  

PatH.,

“Degas didn't like the idea of talent; he thought good art was all hard work, nothing else.
I think that's wrong.  Yes, art is hard work, sometimes overwhelming, but the hard work alone isn't enough.  If you don't have the talent, all you will get is very thoroughly produced second-rate work.

I totally agree with you, I too, feel Degas got it wrong.  I feel you must have the talent, and inspiration.  Many can be inspired to do something, but without the talent, they will only attempt, and not succeed, or create nothing more than" second-rate work."

[BarbStAubrey]

Seems to me we looked into the Dreyfus Affair when we read The Hare with the Amber Eyes - cannot remember the family name who came from Odessa, very wealthy and members of the family moved to a fashionable street in Paris during this time.

This is another I've just added to my list of TBR - For the Soul of France: Culture Wars in the Age of Dreyfus by Frederick Brown
 

In the aftermath of the Franco-Prussian War of 1870–71, a defeated and humiliated France split into cultural factions that ranged from those who embraced modernity to those who championed the restoration of throne and altar. This polarization—to which such iconic monuments as the Sacre-Coeur and the Eiffel Tower bear witness—intensified with a succession of grave events over the following decades: the crash of an investment bank founded to advance Catholic interests; the failure of the Panama Canal Company; the fraudulent charge of treason brought against a Jewish officer, Alfred Dreyfus, which resulted in a civil war between his zealous supporters and fanatical antagonists.

In this brilliant reconsideration of what fostered the rise of fascism and anti-Semitism in twentieth-century Europe, Frederick Brown chronicles the intense struggle for the soul of a nation, and shows how France’s deep fractures led to its surrender to Hitler’s armies in 1940.

Another curiosity I want to look into is to learn more about this Bonaparte - during my school days we were to understand that Napoleon was a bad guy and not to delve into his history with any admiration - My first trip to Paris I was confused to see buildings that memorialized Napoleon remembering my childhood education that he was not to be admired and was sent to Elba to die. Where as, this mid-century Bonaparte, a nephew I believe was not even brought to our attention - in fact this time in history was sorta swiped over with our own Civil War being front and center and then we skip to WWI - that entire century of European history was barely mentioned and it appears that within that century in Europe were the seeds and tiny shoots for not only WWI but for WWII as well as, what is going on in the middle east today. So I am curious.

Another is the duo written by Mary McAuliffe - she has the Dawn of the Belle Epoque... and Twilight of the Belle Epoque

And then I never have read Zola who was in the middle of bringing the Dryfus affair to the attention of the world.
http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/his9_jaccuse.html

My copy of The Fortune of the Rougons arrived this week - it is the first in Zola's Rougon-Macquart series - I think there are 14 books in the series - we shall see what we shall see - I thought it a good idea to start with the first. Has anyone read this series or anything written by Zola?

Every book we read ends up being a stepping stone for more - I keep saying I am not going to bury myself in another exploration and here we go again - but to think there was so much that affects us today happening during the 'Beautiful Time' and we have no clue - maybe after reading some of this the news commentary about the push and pull in the EU will make more sense.

[JoanP]

I like that, Bella -  - "second rat work"  

We've just opened July's Book Club Online...David McCullough's big fat book about American's in Paris between 1830 and 1900 -
Of course he's devoted many pages to Miss Mary.  Really interesting to read her in this  context.
We won't be starting until Bastille Day...plenty of time to locate a copy of the book...  The just-opened discussion can be found here - The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris

Plenty of time to finish this book in the context of the period.

Many many years ago, I dimly remember reading Zola's famous letter - "J'accuse..." - nothing else.  Barb, would you say that their differences over the Dreyfus Affaire was the final blow to the relationship between Mary C and Edgar Degas?  I thought  at first they were going to putter along, side by side, working in Paris to the end...though never resuming former relationship, of course - but friends.  Mary has taken a firm stand on this, no longer awed by his opinions.  He was by himself in his views on Dreyfus' guilt, wasn't he?

ps  I just heard from my Library this morning - my copy of Dawn of the Belle Epoque is waiting for me to pick up!

[BarbStAubrey]

eww fabulous - I need to read along so we can compare a few notes - terrifffffic

that is a difficult one isn't it - part of the break I think was Mary no longer feeling the 'need' for Degas to comment on her every move and thought - I do not think earlier she would have had the courage to act on or voice her objections to his stand - I see it as one more step on her road to freedom but then, the Dreyfus Affair, that we learn was bogus was a big issue at the time and was probably hitting old buttons for everyone.

There is so much written the same in all the online bios you have to wonder if they all copy from one another but aside - they all agree that "Edgar appreciated Catholic rituals and traditions but was not religious." Hmm I wonder - it is like growing up believing in Santa - you may not act on it but there is a pull of memory and an unheralded concept that belief in the miraculous and in goodness as a myth is OK. I think there was still a core connection to the teachings of the church if only that it was the saving grace for the peasants - Edgar Degas may have come from wealth but he did mix and live among the poor most of his artistic life in Paris. And then to top it off the fact that special dispensations were given by the Pope enabling Edgar’s two sibling to marry cousins suggests to me the church and its traditions were part of his upbringing that you do not entirely loose.

I remember when we read "The Hare..." I became so curious to find out when all this attitude about the Jews started - I must have read over a dozen books tracing the European history - Did not even Know that there was a pale in Russia - and traced back how, because of the burgeoning trade class emerging in Europe, this new middle class came from the peasants who. since before the fall of Rome were part of tribes and groups that wholesale became Catholic because their leader wanting the blessings of the then Pope in order to show he was the more powerful and the rightful crowned leader. The bourgeoisie who were Catholic, in order to protect what the Jews were masters at, Trade, blamed, scourged, attacked the Jews, including hanging them and all sorts of atrocities in order to protect their profits in this new middle class venture, trade.

I traced this back and back and realized the old Catholic cry "the Jews killed Jesus" had to be something that came about later - at the time those who followed Jesus were not called Catholic - the word was not in use for another 100 year or more after the death of Jesus. At the time they were all Jews - some who followed the Christ - Now Rome did have issue with the Jews, waging war and blowing up their temple in Jerusalem a few times.

The nearest I came to figuring the start of all of this for Catholics is when Constantine turned Catholic bringing along all the Romans, including his army that at his direction got into the middle of church politics, he soon changed his flag - there had been in the corner a small Jewish symbol that he changed to the symbol of the Catholic Church - also, until Constantine accepted hook line and sinker the Catholic religion and church the Catholics were being eaten by lions thanks to these Roman leaders - my gut says that the Catholics were not going to look at a gift horse except to give it all the sugar, carrots and apples they could find which could have included the Roman sentiment about Jews - plus it was one more way for Catholics to differentiate themselves from the Jews - thus forever more a cornerstone of Catholic thinking that was peasant thinking and later, the thinking of the bourgeoisie and   yes, the neck bone is connected to the shoulder bone etc. so that I could see how the roots of Degas' childhood would have set him up for his opinion against Dreyfus.

Mary being free now from her need for his OK and her background was not Catholic also, America was not exposed to that many Jews until the turn of the century she could easily have used her noggin instead of a knee jerk traditional viewpoint. And so, where I do not think it was a deciding factor I do think it was one more nail in the coffin that kept them separated.

[PatH]

The Dreyfus affair was hugely divisive in French society.  Antisemitism was only one of the issues, though the most important.  It became clear that the innocent Dreyfus had been framed in a cover-up of corruption in the army.  He wasn't liked, and his Jewishness made him a good target.  So there was an issue of corruption in the army, and as this was used as an excuse to try for more government supervision of the army, it became a political issue.  Since the army officers came from the elite, Establishment politics played a part.  So you took sides based on class feelings, political philosophy, religious prejudice, etc., and these could conflict in families, even in one person.  Oh, yes, there was also the issue of simple justice, which some people actually put first.  And it definitely conflicted with the other issues in some people.

I'm looking forward to learning more about this in our next discussion.

[JoanP]

Thanks, Barb - and Pat, for your explanation..It seems that all of Paris - of France, was was in turmoil over the accusations against Dreyfus, but these differences over belief in his guilt, accentuated other differences.      Mosts of the artists, writers, were in support of Dreyfus' innocence - excluding Degas.  Zola's famous letter, beginning "J'accuse" was dated 1898, which marked a real break in the relationship between Mary and Degas.  I guess I still have difficulty understanding Degas' stance.  But do understand how it led to the break between these two.

There's a familiar portrait of Mary Cassatt by Degas - said to be the only portrait he did of her.  I thought Mary was older in this portrait - that it was painted in their later years - as friends, before the Dreyfus Affair.   But from what I can find, it was painted between 1880 and 1884 - (it took a while for Degas to finally finish it) -Mary would have been only in her late 30's then, right?  This would have been painted shortly AFTER their encounter following the 1880 exhibit...

At the National Gallery of Art exhibition, we learned that this portrait was a gift to Mary from Degas.  We also learned that she never liked it - and sold it without telling Degas.  It is part of the permanent collection of the National Gallery - maybe Mary sold it in America?  I think the story tells us something about Mary's state of mind at this time.

Something else -

"Cassatt herself was not particularly fond of this portrait and requested that the agent who was selling it for her not mention it was her portrait.
It is perhaps ironic that we see a portrait of a great artist holding what could be cards or small photographs, rather than surrounded by her paintings. "

http://gallery.sjsu.edu/paris/breaking_away/women_artist_1.htm

[JoanP]

A question for the author - did young Julie Manet ever put the question to Degas, why didn't he marry Mary?  Just wondering if that was recorded fact - or part of the fiction?

Could a marriage between these two have worked?  I've been thinking about that since reading RLO's comment about becoming their fear of becoming "hopelessly entangled..."   Isn't that what we all do when we marry? Don't you think they had enough understanding of one another - and respect for their need to work - to have had an entanglement that wasn't necessarily "entangled?"

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  

So you took sides based on class feelings, political philosophy, religious prejudice, etc., and these could conflict in families, even in one person.  Oh, yes, there was also the issue of simple justice, which some people actually put first.  And it definitely conflicted with the other issues in some people.

I agree, look at how our country is divided today just on their feelings of this president and his policies.  I actually have lost friendships, and relatives not speak to me, since Obama has been president.  I could see where this could definitely put even more strain on Mary and Edgar's relationship.  They were already a bit distant when the Dreyfus affair took place.  But as we know they were able to stay in touch, and treat each other with civility, and yes even friendship to the end.

JoanP.,  This picture of Mary he painted is not very flattering at all.  I don't blame her for not liking it.  I remember earlier I posted a link to an article that stated, Edgar also was upset with Mary because she sold his paintings and he took it personal.

Seems these two lived their lifetime of knowing each other, filled with misconceptions, misunderstandings, and miscommunications.  It's no wonder they missed out on love.  To the very end each of them questioned each other's and their own feelings.....

"She didn't know, she didn't know."

When the words, "I love you,"  go unspoken, it always leaves wonder and doubt, that is why it is so important to say those three little words, that have such a huge impact.......  


Well today is the final day, for the final chapter of the book....a couple of pages that pretty much sums it all up.  For those who no longer have their book, or never were able to get one, I decided to give them these last pages of the last chapter:

Chapter Fifty-Three

"Yes, it was then that the light dimmed.  The moment Edgar wondered whether he had ever loved her.  Later, at his funeral, the light barely penetrated at all.  The buried him in the cemetery in the show of Montmartre, so that he would always be at home.

Mary put down the magnifying glass.  The night had completely fallen now.  The lights in the studio were on; she didn't know how.  No doubt Mathilde had come in and seen her reading the letters and retreated.  She wished she hadn't because she could have used her help; she wasn't quite certain what she had read.  Some of the lines had faded, and even his latest letters, written in Jeanne's hand, recalled a past unfamiliar to her.  Sometimes she had to remember what she had wanted.  It was the meaning of life, wasn't it, all that desire?  But desire for what?  Lately, she was waking up at night gasping for air, and in those strained few moments when it seemed that she might not be able to catch her breath, the past opened up to her in one shining image of color and light that by morning had receded and left her only with a sense of wonder.  It was the heart that saw what your mind hid from you.  Perhaps, as Edgar so reverently believed, it wasn't the mind that saw, after all.

Mathilde must have stoked the fire, too, for it flickered and flared with a savage, comforting warmth.  Well, it was over now, all of it, or it soon would be.  How odd it was to survive nearly everyone, to be the last, to be the one who might tell everyone the tale, though no one would ever care now, she thought.  For what was lost love?  It was the story of everyone's life.  Hers, Edgar's, Berthe's, Edouard's.  A multiplicity of confusion, a multiplicity of pain.

The letters had scattered: in her lap and on the divan and on the floor.  Her memories.  His.  How slowly she moved now, what effort it took to gather them up.  It seemed it was the work of her lifetime.

Was it a crime to burn memory?  She didn't know.  Memory is all we have,  Degas had once said.  Memory is what life is, in the end.

She would be ash herself, soon like all the others.  She thrust the letters one by one into the fire.  The flames took their time consuming the inked pages, turning indigo and vermillion and ocher, a dazzling radiance that penetrated the opaque wall of blindness that in the end had stolen from both of them their beloved avocation.  How odd it was that in burning their lives__burning memory__color and light returned to her.

The pages burned on and on.  And those flames the years evaporated, the things unsaid and foregone, the misunderstandings and misconceptions and subverted hopes, the things that would now never be said.

Paint love, he had once said to her.  You must always paint love.

In this, she supposed he had given her all he could give.

And what had she given him?

She didn't know.  She didn't know.

I feel so melancholy, after reading this final chapter.  It really is what the ending of life is all about.  Faded memory, thinking back to the years, wondering how you got here, how things you desired was not in your reach, those gone before you, and then you deciding how to let your ending be.  Mary decides to burn the letters, she sees she is close to death, and ashes is what will be the final stage of everything that ever was.  It seems fitting that the book should end in ashes:

 

Ashes to ashes

Meaning

We come from dust; we return to dust.

Origin

'Ashes to ashes' derives from the English Burial Service. The text of that service is adapted from the Biblical text, Genesis 3:19 (King James Version):

                             In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou  
                             taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The 1662 version of the Book of Common Prayer indicated the manner and text of the burial service:

Then, while the earth shall be cast upon the Body by some standing by, the Priest shall say,

                         For as much as it hath pleased Almighty God of his great mercy to take unto himself the soul of our
                         dear brother here departed, we therefore commit his body to the ground; earth to earth, ashes to
                         ashes, dust to dust; in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life, through our Lord
                         Jesus Christ; who shall change our vile body, that it may be like unto his glorious body, according to
                         the mighty working, whereby he is able to subdue all things to himself.

The term has been used frequently in literature and song lyrics.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/ashes-to-ashes.html

I'm not sure either Mary or Edgar gave me any sense either were religious, or what religion or faith if any their families had.  I don't think it really matters, this just seems fitting regardless of what religion.


  

[JoanP]

I think it means something when she sells off a painting by Degas - for whatever reason.  I put myself in her position.  If an artist I greatly respect - and one who I consider a close friend, gives me a gift that he's been working on for four years, I think KNOW I would keep it rather than sell it - especially if I knew it would hurt his feelings.

Since we won't be starting A Greater Journey: Americans in Paris until Bastille Day - July 14, we can keep this discussion going until the last posts are in.

What is interesting about this July selection - McCullough's book overlaps in time with the Dreyfus upheaval - from 1860-1900 when Americans are coming in great numbers into Paris...Americans such as Mary Cassatt.

[bellamarie]

JoanP.,  I agree. I think even if like the article stated, (paraphrasing) she was getting rid of a lot of her stuff near the end, she got rid of his paintings before Degas died, so he was aware of the fact she sold some of his paintings she owned. I can understand him being hurt and upset with her.  IF, the article is factual, and she did get rid of his paintings, it could mean she was disconnecting from him, and he saw this.  Maybe having the paintings around were too painful, reminders of the what could have been, or even reminders of the cruel ways he treated her.  

I have items that have little monetary value, but are sentimental to me, I have kept from my grandmothers, mother and mother in law, and others who have passed on.  These bring me comfort, and remind me of the love I shared with these people in my life.  I didn't get the sense Edgar or Mary gave in to sentimental thoughts for things.  

Glad to hear the discussion will remain open beyond June 30.  I will be busy the next few days helping my son move his family into a new home.  Then come July 3rd I will begin my vacation, I am so looking forward to.  I love my daycare kids and grandkids, but being kid free for ten days is going to be glorious!!!  I will drop in from time to time, especially to hear Robin's final comments and to wish he a farewell.  This is the first book by Robin I have read, but won't be my last.

I have begun reading "The Divorce Papers" someone mentioned in the book club.  Really enjoying this style of writing. 

[MegR]

Hello, Ladies,
This is that delinquent MegR who's been away for a while.  Tried to find old Senior Net site for book club & finally got new address from Ginny.  Still trying to figure out this new set-up!  Saw earlier that you were doing this book & wanted to join in.  Went to B & N for it, but they didn't have it in stock - and I couldn't coordinate schedule to join this month.  (Definitely will look for "IALY" to read independently.  It sounds really intriguing.  Would like to return to these in near future.  Currently am in one for a Louise Penny mystery on-line.  What's the next book and when does it start?  Happy 4th to all on Friday!  - MegR

[BarbStAubrey]

Welcome Meg - did you have a nickname on the old SeniorNet - tell us a bit about yourself - Did you go to the Chicago Bash?

[BarbStAubrey]

After reading how the young "rats" were the children of maids and laundress's I wondered when it changed - at least here in the states - that the ballet corp usually train in dance schools where their parents can afford to send them for years of lessons - we heard how in Russia there were children from very poor families who were brought to boarding schools to learn ballet but that is not typical here in the states and I had not heard of the state training youngsters in dance other than in Communist Russia. So when did the change occur I wonder...

So far have  not found the answer but did come across this great site - the History of Ballet

http://www.thecharlestonballet.com/educationOutreach.pdf

[JoanP]

Barbara, that link reminded me of granddaughter's "Russian" experience two years ago when she was 11.  The Moscow Ballet came to town and she was selected to take part in the seasonal production of Nutcracker. It seems they did not travel from city to city with kids, so they selected from each city's dance schools. (We guessed they sold a lot of tickets to these kids' families.) Lindsay was delighted - until the Moscow troupe arrived...and would not talk to her - in fact, seemed annoyed at her attempt to communicate.  (She's a dedicated swimmer now)

[JoanP]

 MegR - Welcome home!  Are you the Meg, friend of Jo from Pittsburgh?

We look forward to seeing you in future discussions. On July 14, we'll be starting David McCullough's A Greater Journey about Americans in Paris between 1860 and 1900 ( no idea why he stopped at 1920 - things were just beginning to flap and roar!  You can find it here-
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4295.0

Then we will probably go on to Kingsley Amis'' Lucky Jim - (don't know why I never read it before)
Really look forward to your return.

ps. Our author will not be happy to hear you were unable to get a copy of her book, I Always Loved You in time for this discussion.  Know that the whole discussion will be available to you in the Archives, complete with the author's comments.

[MegR]

Barbara,  I did participate in Senior Net book discussions a few years ago.  Initially joined up when my friend "JoMeander" told me about the site.  Think last few books read with SN group were Andre Dubus House of Sand and Fog and Grisham's Painted House.  Am drawing a bit of a blank.  I tried recently to find Senior Net site again for book discussions and had some difficulty. Finally emailed Ginny A to get new address.  And here I am.  Retired, frequently swamped with large family stuff -- and a reading fool!  Remember your name, Traude's, Maryal (bless her soul), of course, Ginny A. and Joan P.

Am finding new site a little confusing & not sure how to use it.  Took me a while to just find where to be able to post!
       Is there a tutorial?   
       Where can I find a list of upcoming titles for discussion?
Know I'm too late for this one and definitely will read I Always Loved You independently.  (I can't catch up for now & am in middle of another on-line one for a Louise Penny mystery).  Really enjoyed SN's group & since our local live body group disbanded after some years, I'm looking forward to participating again.

Nickname?  It was the result of a typing error (not hitting space bar!) - so it's still MegR!

[MegR]

Hi Joan!  Yes!  I'm that Pittsburgh gal & Jo is still a pal and a greatgma too!  Nice to see you're still here too!

[BarbStAubrey]

OH yes, I remember Jo as well - we have become so used to this site it is too easy to forget the pages are different - yes, SeniorNet became something else and moved to Wash.DC - Marcie who was on staff in Calif is here on these pages - Our next read is starting on Bastille Day, July 14 with David McCullough's The Greater Journey: Americans in Paris . - I hope this link works for you . 

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4295.0

And again I hope I hope I hope this link brings you to the list of discussions - just hit the discussion title and when you post anything it will automatically let you know the number of post since you last posted and when you hit the title it will bring you to your last post.

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php

there are other tricks of the trade and Jane or JoanP will probably be the best to help you

[RLO]

JoanP--

I find it interesting that so many folks want to parse the biography from the fiction. For an author, it's interesting to know that that question vexes so many readers. As to Julie Manet, Edgar Degas, along with Renoir, became very close to her after her mother died. Her father was already dead. She was well taken care of, she had aunts and cousins who ensured her comfort, but Degas and Renoir made certain to continue their association with her. Manet kept a diary, which you, too, can read. And now for the truth of what was said and not said: I can't say, because I wasn't there when any of their conversations took place. So ANY dialog in historical fiction is invented, even that which is based on letters and diaries, because later recollections of what was said are filtered through the person's memory who recorded them, which is inherently unreliable. This is not biography, it's fiction, which is hard for readers, I think, but one must allow for characters to come to life on their own and speak. Even dialog in biographies is filtered through the historian's point of view. That said, I derived that idea from intimations in Manet's diary. But what took place on any day between two given people more than a hundred years ago, unless recorded by a scribe or filmed, is impossible to say.

Everyone, I want to thank you so much for reading I Always Loved You. I enjoyed this back and forth very much, in addition to your intelligent and wide ranging commentary on my narrative. I was very touched by your welcome when I asked to intrude, and hope very much that it added to, rather than detracted from, your experience of reading the book. My very best wishes to everyone.

[JoanP]

Robin - please accept our sincere gratitude for contributing  to our enjoyment - and understanding of the relationship between these two artists.  If we "tend to parse the biography,"  please remember that many of us knew little of Mary Cassatt, to say nothing of her relationship with Degas until we read your book.

Of course we have never considered the conversations in historical fiction to be anything but the author's creation...but knowing of the existence of your sources, such as Eugene Manet's diary, adds so much to the plausibility that young Julie would have been comfortable enough with Degas to ask him why he didn't marry Mary.  Thank you so much for sharing this information.

Please let us know when your next book is published - know that you have friends here, and that you will be warmly welcomed here - again!

[bellamarie]

Robin, Thank you so much for dropping in on our discussion.  It was not only an honor, but a pleasure to have you.  You truly did clarify many things, and answered all my questions, which helped me with accepting some things I was not certain of.  I never had heard of Degas or Cassatt until this book, so imagine how much I was able to learn, between fact and fiction.  I feel you did a marvelous job in merging the facts with your fiction, creating a story of art and love, and the love of art.  I know this book will stay with me for a very long time.

Good luck with writing your next book.  Not that you need luck, if it's remotely as good as this book, I will be excited for your success and look forward to reading it.

Ciao for now~

[BarbStAubrey]

Robin thank you for introducing yourself to us and adding to this discussion - your story has opened Pandora's box about so many subjects - We hear so much about Monet, Manet and a few others however, your book opens us to see the impact Degas had added to their careers.

Still so many questions - how you even started to become interested in Degas and Cassatt - did you travel to see where they lived - what kind of background research did you find necessary to tell their story -

I will look for your interviews and find out more - you have opened up all kinds of interests from some of the other artists and what happened to them to more about this 'beautiful time' in France - thank you for sharing with us - it made our discovery into your book that much more meaningful - and most of all thanks for chapter Forty-Nine - magic, pure magic what you did with words.

[Jonathan]

This discussion has really caught my imagination, aroused my curiosity, and filled me with admiration for an author who would take on the serious business of a love affair between two such strong characters as Degas and Cassatt. Who can deny that the relationship bore much fruit. From the link to the NGA exhibit:

"The affinity between the two artists is undeniable." "He changed my life." "She is someone who feels as I do." "They remained  devoted friends for forty years."

I'm looking forward to reading I Always Loved You.  But it will have to wait. I must see the show at the National Gallery, but not in Washington in July or August! Late September should be lovely. And when I've seen the pictures I'll buy the book to take away with me. In the meantime it's off to Paris in The Greater Journey. What a great prelude this dicussion has been to the next.

A question for the author. What about those two others, Edouard Manet and Berthe Morisot? Is there a book there?

[RLO]

Jonathan:

You'll have to read the book to find out about Manet and Morisot. They are a subplot in the book.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, It's nice to see you drop in.  Too bad you could not have shared the book discussion with us. I am sure you would have truly enjoyed it.  Edgar, Mary, Edouard, and Berthe had complicated relationships.  But keep in mind when reading the book it is historical/fiction, not biographical.

You ask,  

Who can deny that the relationship bore much fruit.

In my opinion there was no fruit born, if anything, I feel the two of them denied themselves, or resisted such a union.  From all the research myself, others, including Robin, has delved into gives no proof of any such intimacy, although there was much speculation or suspect.  I do feel Robin did a magnificent job in creating a relationship between Mary and Edgar, that one could imagine they possibly gave way once or twice to temptation.  But then as Robin said, you'll have to read the book to find out.

I hope you enjoy your trip to Washington and the Museum, when you decide to go.  

[Jonathan]

I will be reading your book, Robin. I could have guessed that Manet and Morisot would be a subplot. How do you feel about the Cassatt/Degas relationship bearing fruit? I'll admit I'm only guessing (in fact my wife tells me I'm too far out on this one), but I feel that Degas aroused some form of maternal longing in Cassatt. There seem to be a fair number of mother and child scenes in Cassatt's work. Two in JoanP's post several days ago: Mother and Child, and Mother Reading to Her Grandchildren And in books around the house I find three more: The Boating Party, Breakfast in Bed,, and, the loveliest of all, Mother and Child Against a Green Background. Perhaps Degas fathered them all. In an artistic sense. But my wife is back with evidence to the contrary. In William Wiser's The Great Good Place: American Expatriate Women in Paris Cassatt is asked "Wasn't Degas your teacher?" and she replies: "My dear boy, The Louvre was my teacher. The Louvre was the first most important teacher of us all. And nature was, (the teacher) for the Barbizon painters.

Cassatt's mother and child stuff seems supremely natural to me. Why couldn't she admit it?

Bellamarie, I loved your ashes to ashes post. Very moving. But these ashes left works of art behind and art is eternal.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, Your wife is a very wise woman, listen to her, and listen to Mary Cassatt, "My dear boy, The Louvre was my teacher. The Louvre was the first most important teacher of us all. And nature was, (the teacher) for the Barbizon painters."

Mary was a stronger woman, and more talented than even she knew.  I have said it throughout the book, from beginning to end, Mary was an exceptional artist in her own right.  When you read the story I think you will have a different view.  What seemed to arouse the maternal feeling in Mary, or I like to think of it as "inspiration," was the beauty of seeing mothers with their children.  I don't think Degas had anything to do with it.  If anything she saw how much being a mother involved with her friend Berthe, and knew it was not something she wanted in her life.  It did not negate her being able to paint the tenderness and love she saw in mothers and their children.

But these ashes left works of art behind and art is eternal.

Indeed art is eternal, but their lives and letters were not, and that is where the book ends...... in ashes.  

You do not do the story, or author justice, and you can only understand, and appreciate Robin's creative work of art in writing this wonderful love story that did not develop, by reading the book in it's entirety.  And again, keep in mind, it is historical/fiction not biographical, as Robin has stated, so the reader is not confused, using sources that may attempt to negate her own story.   That's the wonderful thing about fiction......it's what the author chooses it to be.   

[PatH]

I've been traveling, and without internet for several days.  Now I'm wired again; thank goodness the discussion is still open.

The last section (don't have the book, so can't give chapters): the tone here is absolutely pitch-perfect.  Not only is the course of the relationship likely, but the words and thoughts of the two ring true.

I especially liked the moment when Mary uncovered the life mask of Degas as he was when they were close.  I could see and feel myself feeling and saying exactly what she did.

[JoanP]

Glad we kept the light on for you, PatH - and for anyone else who has been without Internet the last few days.  A great way to express the last chapters of the book - Mary's visit to Degas.  "absolutely pitch-perfect."  It was in this section that I was able to relax - stop "parsing the biography" - and give myself up to the author's "fiction."  A most  satisfying ending.  Not that I didn't wish that their lives hadn't taken a different turn long before...  You could just feel their regret.  It was such a realization pf the choices we make and regret ...gee, I can't even finish the thought without going into my own "biography."

The author's research  led her to Paris and the  to the mask  she located among Degas' belongings.  She has translated her own stunned reaction at viewing the mask - the "life mask" - into Mary's memory of the younger Degas,  when she uncovered it in Degas' studio at the end.  Didn't you  come to tears when reading that section?   As PatH says - "absolutely pitch-perfect!"

Jonathan - you do know that you will be able to follow this discussion as you read the book?  - It will be in the SeniorLearn Archives (see main page.)  Will provide a link once this is moved.

How about we stay open through the weekend for those unable to come in before this?  Happy 4th everyone!

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting - as I aged and looked at aspects of my life I toyed with regret and realized there are always multiple paths - to have followed another would mean other aspects of my life would be different - I think we would like to avoid pain and so we see the wrenching decisions we made and are reminded again of how painful, that if we just went in that direction but then we also look at the paths we chose and we think had we chose differently we would not have experienced pain or the bigger realization the choice did not bring about the results we hoped for.

And that is what i wonder if Mary is contemplating - not so much the regret of sharing a life that alone she could not have created. Degas would have had to also wanted a married life - but then Mary may be thinking just being married and imagining her own children with her regret being her old nemesis of not being satisfied with her art and now that she can no longer see to paint her regret is she gave up her perceived happiness to be an artist and her art never came to the level she hoped. 

[JoanP]

So, we are left with three questions it seems.
In her last days did Mary regret not having children of her own?  Maybe.  At one time..But not now.  
Does Mary seem to regret not having shared her life with Degas?  Mary was a realist. She knew his art was all-consuming.  But Mary?  Does she regret the decision made so long ago so that she too, would be free to pursue her own work?

Please join us in the upcoming July discussion...We can talk about this more, as David McCullough considers her life and art in -

The Greater Journey: Americans in Parisl