Author Topic: Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan Mid-September/October Book Club Online  (Read 46280 times)

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in!
Everyone is welcome!

 
The Girls of Atomic City                            
by Denise Kiernan
 
Based on first-person interviews with women who served at Oak Ridge, several of them now now in their eighties and nineties, Denise Kiernan  tells the  true story of young women during World War II who worked in a secret city dedicated to making fuel for the first atomic bomb—only they didn’t know that.

At the dawn of the atomic age, the community of Oak Ridge, Tenn., rose up around the secret work taking place there in support of the war effort.  At the heart of those efforts were thousands of women from across the country who did their part to help secure the United States while maintaining a public silence.

 They all knew something big was happening at Oak Ridge, but few could piece together the true nature of their work until the bomb was dropped over Hiroshima, Japan, and the secret was out. The shocking revelation: the residents of Oak Ridge were enriching uranium for the atomic bomb.  They had NO idea!
 
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

September 15-21~ Introduction & Revelation, August 1945;
   Chapters 1, 2, 3  (62 pages)

September 22-28 ~ Tube Alloy, 1938
   Chapters 4,5

Sept. 29- Oct. 5 ~ Tube Alloy, The Quest for Product
   Chapters 6, TUBEALLOY, Chapter 7
(to pg. 150)

[ RELEVANT LINKS:
       An Interview with Denise Kiernan  about Atomic City girls, Part 2 Interview with Denise Kiernan,
Music  the girls would have listened to,
2013 Interview with Celia Klemski,

For Your Consideration
September 29 ~ October 5

TUBEALLOY ~ The Quest for Product (pg 99)
1. What are the two kinds of transformed Tubealloy that were needed for the two models of the Gadget?
2. Site X-10 was the site producing 49 by means of fission chain reaction. How did the other three plants at CEW separate T-235 from T-238?
3. Can you describe the way some of the different processes worked? Have you found any images of the plants at CEW or the processes to help you understand the workings?
4. What are some of the ways the motto, "Bigger. More. Now," apply to events described in this section?

Chapter 6 ~ To Work
1. In this chapter, what are some of the traits of young women recruited for the Project that made them successful?
2. What are some of the challenges that faced some of the women?
3. What are some examples of gender inequality?
4. What are some of the incidents described in this chapter that you found especially interesting?

TUBEALLOY ~ The Couriers
1. After learning about the football-length transforming facilities, were you surprised at the actual "size" of the Product carried by the courriers?
2. Did any other detail in this section arouse your curiosity?

Chapter 7 ~ Rhythms of Life(to pg.156)
1.  "Morale, though often boosted by patriotic duty, remained vulnerable to the strain of daily life." What were some of the activities created to help morale that you might have joined if you lived there?
2. What were some of the "fashion-challenges" faced by the women?
3. What were some of the inequalities faced by the Black residents?
4. What did you learn about the attitudes of the surrounding townspeople toward those who lived "over the fence."?                                 


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, Marcie, PatH,
 

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Ursamajor, we were posting at the same time.  Thanks for the actual story.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
JoanP.,  
Quote
I will be looking for a time when the American people or the "girls of Atomic City" began to look back and show signs of remorse - regret for the secrecy they had agreed to.

If you listen to D.K.'s interview she states, once the women find out about the atomic bomb, and realize what they were working on, it began to bother them.  I think it was in the second part of the interview with Jon Stewart.

ursa
Quote
Quite a large number of people have received a $150,000 settlement from the government because they have developed one of several forms of cancer or other disease attributeable to exposure to radiation or toxic substances at one of the plants.

This does not surprise me at all.  They could rewash the laundry a second time if it "clicked" to try to eliminate the radioactive chemicals, but they couldn't rewash the humans. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
 There are a few questions in the heading we haven't talked about that were brought up in these chapters...like this one:
Quote
We're you surprised at how differently the black workers were treated?

I really wasn't, were you?  Remembering the treatment of the enlisted blacks in the war-

During World War II, most African American soldiers still served only as truck drivers and as stevedores (except for some separate tank battalions and Army Air Forces escort fighters).[27] In the midst of the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944, General Eisenhower was severely short of replacement troops for existing military units which were totally white in composition. Consequently, he made the decision to allow African American soldiers to pick up a weapon and join the white military units to fight in combat for the first time.[27] More than 2,000 black soldiers had volunteered to go to the front.[28] This was an important step toward a desegregated United States military. A total of 708 African Americans were killed in combat during World War II.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_African_Americans#World_War_II

I really liked Kattie Strickland  - she knew how to get around the unfair restrictions.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Bella...I haven't listened to Part II of that interview...but I suppose that since the author said this, she must have mentioned it in the book she was telling Mr. Stewart about in the interview. Haven't read ahead in the book yet either...the "girls" know nothing about the Gadget at this point in the book.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
JoanP.,  I have not read ahead as well.  I did go to Amazon.com and read reviews of those who have read the book, and I must say I feel like I just spent an evening with residents of Oak Ridge, Tenn.  So many of those in the reviews either have parents, grandparents or some other relative that worked in the CEW. Some also knew ladies in the book that D.K. had interviewed. Just reading their personal responses and mentioning their relative who lived this, is so much more intmate for me.  I have not been able to yet get a personal feel of the characters so far introduced to us in the book.  I realize D.K. compartmentalized the book, and I am not critiquing her style, I just feel in doing so it keeps jumping around so much so, that I forget the person by the time she comes back to her, or introduces a new woman, in between the very complicated scientific methods.  You asked earlier which of the women we could see our self as, and I honestly couldn't remember the names of the few women introduced to this point.  I got bogged down in the splitting of the atoms, the neutrons, and tubealloy, and forgot the women.  Most of the reviews said the first few chapters were the most difficult to follow, so I have hope to be more focused in the coming chapters.

I just know this story is fascinating to learn about, and it is also fascinating for me to be reading History!  My hubby just giggles every time I choose to join a discussion that has anything to do with history, because he knows how little I cared to know about it, yet since I have been with this book club I can actually hold an informed, somewhat intelligent conversation with him, (the History buff) AND even inform him of things he never knew, such as the secret city of Oak Ridge, Tenn.!  So there you have it.....I like the women of Oak Ridge, will continue to sludge through the mud, and finish this project/book.  The only advantage I have over the women of Atomic City is, I know what they were working on.    :D  :D

So, I am ready to tackle the next chapters as soon as they are put in the heading. 

As for was I surprised at how the blacks were treated during these times, I must say emphatically NO!  I have only ever lived in Michigan and Ohio.  My daughter married a guy from Georgia, and they moved to Florida in 1995.  My first visit to their apartment in Florida after they were married was shocking!  I was appalled at how southerners still had so much prejudice in their thinking and speech. When they got married in Georgia we had booked a hotel in his hometown of Bainbridge, for the wedding reception.  Again, I was shocked at how the black workers were spoken to and treated at this very nice hotel, in this very nice small town. I was embarrassed and felt like I was in a pre civil war movie scene.  Our family, seemingly like the rich family, (which we are not), and the blacks being ordered to please me and do anything I said to prepare the reception room, made me very uncomfortable.  My husband  and I, or any of our relatives were not allowed to lift a finger to help arrange the room. I had never experienced anything like that in my lifetime.  If things were still this bad in 1995, fifty years later than the time of this book, it did not surprise me whatsoever how the blacks were being treated in Oak Ridge, Tenn. in the 1940's.  It made me sad then, and it makes me sad now reading it in this book.

It's getting late and I have to be up early, so I will say Good Night!   
Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
PatH is in the air today. One of her questions she left for us to pondere this week,we  have touched on - but can get to know these girls better if we think about what they told Denise Kiernan.

Quote
Could you have managed?  What crucial role did women have in shaping the character of the community?

In Chapter 5 we hear more of the details that made life  difficult- worse than mud and secrecy, outdoor bathrooms with long lines. . Did you notice the three plants were located 17 miles apart - in case of explosions?  The big turnovers - complaints about food, housing. I wondered how those exiting were sworn to secrecy about the place.

Denise Kiernan wrote that although the Project's goal single goal was to enrich Tubealloy for the Gadget, life at the CEW was turning into a social experiment.  It was the women who were turning the place into "home" - which might explain why so many chose to remain after the war.

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
We're moving today to the next Tubealloy section and to Chapters 6 and 7 this week. Of course, we can still talk about anything in the previous chapters. The same themes seem to run throughout the book, among them: secrecy, doing one's duty for the War effort, gender inequality, making community in unlikely places.

In this next Tubealloy section we learn more about the technical aspects involved in the transformation of Tubealloy for use in the "Gadget."  What are the two kinds of transformed Tubealloy that were needed for the two models of the Gadget?

Site X-10 was the site producing 49 by means of fission chain reaction. How did the other three plants at CEW separate T-235 from T-238?

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Bellamarie, I also have trouble making coherent pictures of the girls.  They're well described, and I feel sympathy with them, but we hop around so much I have trouble keeping the details straight, assigned to the right person.  I see why Kiernan tells it this way, though.  I'm guessing this problem will clear up as we go on through the book.

I like Kattie too, and her ability to deal with unfair restrictions.  Unfortunately, her life had probably given her plenty of practice.

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
I found this section kind of hard to follow. I think I have the gist of the various processes but I wasn't able to visualize the details even from the detailed descriptions. There are several relevant photos in the middle of the book. Two are of "cubicle operators" monitoring control panels in the Y-12 plant. One is of an Alpha  "racetrack."


JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Quote
"I see why Kiernan tells it this way, though. PatH"

I can too, Pat.  Can't imagine the story without the human element - the thousands of workers totally unaware of the Tubealloy project they were working on.  Imagine an entire book filled with just the scientific detail we're reading   in the TUBEALLOY sections - who would read it? :D

It's true - it's getting  easier to recognize the "the girls" -  as we continue in these chapters.  No longer need to keep my finger in the Introductory chapter where the author describes each of those she interviews.  Keep reminding myself that
 many of these women are still living...and actually lived these years of secrecy described here.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Marcie - I'm not  really trying to follow all the detail of the various processes described in this Tubealloy chapter - the one titled "the Quest for Product."  But I am amazed at reading the extent of the whole project - and in awe of the fact that it was kept secret!  The 55 gallon drums which from all over - and then put on trains to the CEW in Tennessee - from all Canada, New Jersey, Iowa...to CEW - and from there sent on to Los Alamos.  ALL in SECRET!  How many people must have been involved with this!

And while at CEW - those four plants which  handled all the Tubealloy - The size of them!  Cannot not even imagine the size of the K-25 plant - even with the visual provided - the size of 44 football fields!

When the fission reaction in X-10 "went critical" - the great Enrico Fermi made the trip to CEW under an assumed name - and stayed at the Guest House!  The Guest House, ursa! Your future home, perhaps?
I appreciate reading such detail - even though I have no idea what it meant that the reaction went critical - right there in Tennessee.  Will rely on those of you who understood to explain - but I do enjoy reading the Tubealloy chapters - for the contrast...back and forth between the scientific explanations and the girls who are working to make the Project a reality!


marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Those are great points, Joan. The detailed descriptions of the processes emphasize the serious work involved... and the fact that it was "work in progress." The government put many millions into the Project and was not ensured of the outcome.

I too think that the descriptions of the people involved and the conditions they worked under make the book interesting. In Chapter 6 the author reiterates some of the traits of young women recruited for the Project that made them successful. We can talk about that some more and some of the challenges that faced some of the women. What struck you?

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
The people involved, the conditions they worked under, how this changed their lives, how they coped--this is the point of the book.  The scientific side is a necessary part of the story, but it's the subtext.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
PatH.,  I agree.  As far as Tubealloy the Quest For Product, I again found myself bogged down.  I just feel while there is some importance to understand the process, this is just more information than necessary.  I suppose if you were writing a book on the process, it would seem of interest, especially to those with some scientific knowledge.  D.K. seems to be repeating herself a lot.  Although I did read the chapter, I had to skip pages once again for redundancy, and uninterest.  I so want to hear more about the women, their feelings, their lives not just inside the plants, but more about outside the plants.  D.K. only gives us tidbits, and then back to the process.  

I did find this rather interesting, and gives a bit of an insight to the psychological effect, working in and under these conditions they dealt with.

pg. 96 "For some residents, however, life on the Reservation was too trying.  Chief Psychiatrist Dr. Eric Kent Clarke, who had just arrived several months earlier in March 1944, found himself challenged by what he soon realized was a very unique community.  Combine, cramped quarters with isolation and secrecy and he discovered that a lot of people were in a perpetual state of edgy exhaustion.  The kind of rehashing of a day's work with a spouse or roommate that most adults took for granted was not permitted.  Relieving stress by talking about what was worrying you was not an option, since most worries were related to work, and off-limits topic.
    Residents had left familiar traditions and support networks behind, and there was little to replace them.  Clarke reported that it had for some time been suspected that there were many psychiatric problems plaguing the residents of Oak Ridge, but that these situations were neither recognized nor well-defined .  That's where he came in.
    ":By March, 1944, the need for specialized service to cope with the personality disturbance became apparent and psychiatric service was established,"  Clark wrote in one of his early reports.
     From the beginning the residents have been subjected to many additional stresses absent in the usual community which have created tensions.  Material necessities were still in embryo form, and it required a true pioneer spirit, that was often lacking, to make an easy transition to a community still in the making.


This was an eye opener as well:

pg. 97  "Despite all the planning the military did with regard to Townsites and homes and religious groups and softball leagues, there was no real plan for Oak Ridge beyond the timetable of the war itself.  CEW had a single goal: to enrich Tubealloy for the Gadget.
But whether the Project had intended it or not, CEW was a social experiment of sorts.


After reading a ton of reviews at Amazon.com, written by many relatives of these women who worked at CEW, they mention how they never talked about their years working there, even though they were no longer under the secrecy act.  Some felt they never dealt or got over the fact they played a part in killing innocent lives, especially children.  I would venture to guess back in the 40's and 50's, getting counseling, therapy or any type of psychological help, to learn to deal with all they lived through was not readily available to them, after the war ended.  Soldiers returning home from wars deal with PTS, trying to deal with everything, including their guilt and struggle with the moral issue of killing others.  Yes, they know it's a part of war, but their human instincts, and their moral compass does not always align with, "It had to be done, kill or be killed."  We see what effects it has on their lives.  This project, these women worked on, was just as troubling, I am sure, once they learned what they were doing, not to discount the living conditions, and prejudices they had to live with on a daily basis.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
"Tubealloy:the quest for product" is kind of confusing, even for a chemist.

What did it mean "the reaction went critical"? (JoanP).  This is the same thing that happened under the football field in Chicago.  They are bombarding the tubealloy (uranium) with neutrons.  Some of these neutrons split uranium atoms to give more neutrons, and some of them are captured.  The end result of capture is 49 (plutonium).  The mixture becomes "critical" when you have enough uranium close enough together to produce significantly more neutrons than are fed into it.  It can then keep going on it's own--it's self-sustaining, as each split leads to more than one further split.

This is important because it's what you need in order to manufacture 49.  Now you can do things on a big scale.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
OK, so what is going on in X-10 is NOT on a BIG SCALE...not a big explosion? Would those working in the plant be aware of it?

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
The entire project from the splitting of atoms to create the alloys for the Gadget to get a bigger boom, from the living conditions, using humans for testing, exposing workers to the risk of uranium, etc., etc., etc.  Aware or not aware, the government was determined to create and use this bomb, at all costs.  I have no doubt we would have won the war with or without it. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Thanks very much for the help with our technical questions, Pat.

Bellamarie, I too found the information about the stress factors very interesting.  You quoted:
"The kind of rehashing of a day's work with a spouse or roommate that most adults took for granted was not permitted.  Relieving stress by talking about what was worrying you was not an option, since most worries were related to work, and off-limits topic.....
By March, 1944, the need for specialized service to cope with the personality disturbance became apparent and psychiatric service was established,"  Clark wrote in one of his early reports.
     "From the beginning the residents have been subjected to many additional stresses absent in the usual community which have created tensions.  Material necessities were still in embryo form, and it required a true pioneer spirit, that was often lacking, to make an easy transition to a community still in the making."

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Bellemarie's interest in the mental health issues at Oak Ridge got me to looking at attitudes toward mental illness in the 40s. That would take a lot more time than I care to spend. I did discover that The National Mental Health Act, signed by President Truman, created the National Institute of Mental Health in 1946. It was a result of growing concerns over the number of people rejected for military service for mental health issues and the number of veterans returning with PTSD.

I remember the impression, early on, and reinforced my Dad's own attitude, that having mental health issues and seeing a  psychologist or psychiatrist something shameful. It was something you didn't admit to if you didn't want to be gossiped about, passed over for jobs or promotion, or didn't want to be excluded from "normal" life events. I wonder how many of the women avoided seeing a mental health worker because of the stigma attached. Were women's mental health issues taken as seriously as the men?

 

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Frybabe, I think those attitudes still apply even today for many people.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Fry -  It seems that the patients Dr. Clarke saw were mostly men - am I wrong?  Do you get the impression that the secrecy issue was harder on the married women?  I can see why they wouldn't seek help - knowing they would put their husband's job in jeopardy.  I can't imagine being married in this situation - and yet there were many babies being born during these years.  Our single "girls" seem to be having such a good time, they are able to take it all in stride.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Frybabe, I think those attitudes still apply even today for many people.
Yes, unfortunately, but it's not as bad as it was.  My memory tracks Frybabe's.  Mental health problems were shameful, something one didn't admit to, and women's problems were treated more dismissively than men's.  It must have been hard, when you were already fighting demons, to be ashamed and have to hide your problems.

Diagnosis, treatment, and attitudes have come a long way since then, but there's still a long way to go.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
Fry, and PatH., (we were posting at the same time) you are so right about the attitudes of people who may have needed psychological help for a mental disorder, yet refusing to get it back in the 40's and 50's.  The stigma of shame and gossip, I am certain held many back from getting the help they needed.  Mental illness awareness, and treatment has been something this nation doesn't like dealing with.  My daughter was diagnosed with bipolar/manic depressant, along with auditory hallucinations, and paranoia disorders back in 1998, and I was shocked at learning how families were embarrassed a member of their family was being treated for a mental disorder.  Family, friends, even co workers seemed as if I should keep that part of my life private.  Yet, some approached me in confidence, to reveal they too had a family member with a mental disorder, and until now had never felt they could let anyone know.  The awareness and shame that is attached to mental illness has advanced since Tipper Gore, and celebrities have come out to address it, because they or a loved one was diagnosed, but we still have so far to go.  I can only imagine how lost, depressed, and confused many of these women felt after the project/war was over.  Transitioning out of this life, into the mainstream with no help from the government, and knowing they were considered outsiders by mainstream, had to be mentally taxing.

These paragraphs really jumped out at me:

pg. 146  Celia got the mud off her shoes as best she could, scraping here, knocking there.  She didn't want anyone in Knoxville to be able to tell that she had come from behind the fence.

pg. 146  The relationship between the Clinton Engineer Works and their immediate neighbors was a testy one.  Things hadn't exactly gotten off on the right foot, with nearly 60,000 acres of land being taken from people whose families had lived there for ages.  Though many people from surrounding areas worked at CEW, the suspicious and condescending "you're one of those people from that place" strained the fabric that tenuously held this hodgepodge of communities together.  Socializing did occur, professionally and personally, as the communities forged a reluctant yet unavoidable partnership.  Still, locals complained about the outsiders who lived and worked at CEW.  Some were sure the CEW was getting more than their fair share of rationed goods, for example.  What else could all those trains be carrying in there all the time?

pg. 147  Celia would often walk into stores like Miller's or George's and stand at the counter, waiting to be helped.  She grew more and more annoyed as she watched other customers stroll up after her only to be served first.  The first time it happened she didn't think too much of it.  Just a fluke, she thought.  But now it seemed to be turning into a pattern.  When she finally mentioned it to her friends, other women complained of being turned down for service entirely when requesting a particular item, especially one that was rationed.  "Do you have...?" they'd ask.  "We're saving them for civilians,"  the shopkeeper might say.
   No matter the pains Celia took to wash the mud off her shoes __her civilian shoes__she never surmounted this obstacle.  Maybe it was her accent.  Maybe it was her friends.  Somehow the shopkeepers always knew she was one of those people from that government place.


As wrong and sad as it is, I can actually understand the animosity the Knoxville people had toward the CEW people.  They see them as a part played in the government relocating families, and not paying a fair price for their land.  They are assuming the CEW workers are being given special treatment/rations. They had no idea how difficult the living conditions were for the CEW workers.  They did see the money the women were able to spend in their stores, during rationing/wartime.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
Bellamarie, that is a tough illness to deal with. Over the years, I've known three families who were affected. All three of the family members were women. Two of the women tried to kill their daughters, the other one's husband couldn't deal with it and got a divorce. I haven't been following the most current treatments. Some of the drugs they had been treating manic/depressive disorder with had nasty side effects. I certainly hope they've come up with better ones.

I am continually surprised by the size of this project overall. How in the world did they keep it all so quiet? there seemed to be plenty of workers who left. Where did they go? Other government jobs, to the private sector? How did they manage to keep quiet after leaving?


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
Fry,  Yes, during research and talking with my daughter's psychiatrists, I learned the gene for this illness is predominantly in the maternal gene, although men have it too.  For centuries, lithium was the choice of drug to use to manage the symptoms, but as you probably know, there have been so many others to follow.  Many have had nasty side effects, and my daughter now suffers with diabetes, they feel was linked to taking one of her drugs for years.  There was a class action suit filed, and patients were compensated for at least two of her drugs for treating her illness.  No drug yet has been successful with managing her outbursts and paranoia.  There have been times different doctors have tried new drugs and we have seen improvement in her mood swings and outbursts, but so far nothing that gives her the quality of life we so wish for.  Her husband is a saint, and I tell him there is a special place reserved for him in Heaven for the love and support he has given her.  She did move back home for a couple of years due to a separation, and the responsibility was on her Dad and myself.  It was almost unbearable at times, and thankfully we were able to get her into an apartment within walking distance from our home, so we could have time apart, yet monitor and visit her daily.  I commend anyone who works in the mental illness field at any capacity.  The two of them got back together and she moved back to Florida where the weather I feel helps her deal on a day to day basis, much better than our Ohio weather.  Cold, gloomy, and long winters can affect the serotonin, and cause her to have more depression.  We keep hoping for just the right drugs to give her the life she so deserves, confusion and outburst free.

To answer your questions about the people who left.  I assumed many returned home.  It did mention the enormous turn around in employees, so all of them could not possibly have been placed in other government jobs to keep them quiet.  I know the people had the fear of revealing anything, but I often wondered myself how they managed to return to their homes and go on with their lives and not slip and tell anyone.  They have mentioned a couple of times about loose lips.  Does anyone remember the saying, "Loose lips, sink ships."  I wonder if it came from this particular time of the war.  Well, I will answer my own question.

Loose lips sink ships is an American English idiom meaning "beware of unguarded talk".

The phrase originated on propaganda posters during World War II.[1] The phrase was created by the War Advertising Council[2] and used on posters by the United States Office of War Information.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_lips_sink_ships



“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ursamajor

  • Posts: 305
All I can say is that the rudeness experienced by Celia had disappeared by 1953.  Many, many of the people employed by the project never left Oak Ridge and are there to this day.  There was a black woman who cleaned for me for many years who came to Oak Ridge to clean the dormitories.  I went to her funeral; she is buried in a big cemetery just outisde the old gates.  Of the women interviewed at least two have stayed in Oak Ridge.  Colleen Black lives in a retirement community called Greenfields and  Virginia Spivey Coleman lived in her own house in Oak Ridge until a few months ago, when she moved to an assisted living facility near her daughter.

Oak Ridge was a great place to bring up children in the sixties and seventies.  The schools were excellent and the school population was enough different from the surrounding communities that the school system usde an "Oak Ridge curve" to contrast with the "normal curve" used in achievement testing.  It was a comparatively safe environment for the time and it was a pleasant community.  It is close enough to Knoxville to benefit from the cultural offerings of a city, and there are in Oak Ridge a community orchestra and a playhouse that uses local talent to produce very good plays.  In addition there many civic groups interested in other aspects of the community.

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Many thanks, Ursamajor, for the update on those women.

I could imagine the resentment or resistance to the "insiders" from the "outsiders." The CEW people must have seemed unfriendly at the least in their refusal to answer questions about what they were doing or answer any questions at all about where they lived.

I too was wondering if/how people who left before the Project was completed kept all of their doings at the CEW secret from their families/ spouses/friends. Most didn't know much if anything about what was actually taking place or being created. Do you think that some of those people told something to someone?

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
I've been thinking of what life would have been like for those who left CEW because of the living conditions there.  Thinking of the patriotism throughout the country...everyone was involved.  I don't think any of those who left were less patriotic after their experience at CEW.  I don't think they wanted their "loose lips" to sink ships..or to give advantage to the enemy.

Besides, each individual knew so little about what was actually going on in the plants, as you said, Marcie ...what would they have to say  about their work there?  Unless they got together with others who left...and compared notes?  It is my understanding that they would have a hard time getting jobs elsewhere when they left...unless they left in good standing with CEW.  I think there were a number of reasons those who left would keep quiet about what they knew.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Ursa - I have to say again how important it is having you with us, telling of your life at CEW - from the early 50's on...and the fact that you knew so many of these girls who chose to continue to live in CEW after the war, after they learned what they had been doing there.  It couldn't have been traumatic if they stayed on.

So far, I'm not seeing negative responses from any of the "girls" DK chose to interview for this book.  Maybe things will change.  Right now, they seem to be enjoying themselves, the dances on the tennis courts, the never-ending line of young, eligible (for the most part) young men.  We're not hearing from those who were married and having problems with the restrictions on their conversations with their husbands.  Do you think there is a reason for that?  If one of the girls married, did she automatically stop working in one of the plants?  That would make her even more cut off from socializing.  No wonder the wives began to gather...

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
One more quick note - and then off for the day -

I had wondered if all the chemists assessed the  tubealloy were men...and then read more about  Virginia Spivey (Coleman) - the chemist.  When she learned her supervisors were giving her "D" ratings to prevent her from getting a raise and asked about it, she learned she wasn't getting promoted because she wasn't in "her designated field" - so she requested the lab.  That's all it took?  They let her into the lab simply because she requested it?

Once in the lab - "she knew precisely what the Product was - not where it came from - or where it was going."  "Even those who knew what it was, agreed never to mention it."
  If Virginia Spivey had decided to leave, she certainly would have had some information to spread.  But she didn't.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
JoanP.,   
Quote
Right now, they seem to be enjoying themselves, the dances on the tennis courts, the never-ending line of young, eligible (for the most part) young men.  We're not hearing from those who were married and having problems with the restrictions on their conversations with their husbands.

With all due respect JoanP., I am a bit confused with your statements, unless you have not yet gotten to the end of the pages of our assigned chapters this week.  My post with page #s and quotes from the book, clearly showed the psychiatrist  had much concern for the state of mind these women had from working and living in these conditions.  I don't think patriotism is in question, as to how this affected these people in CEW, while or after the project.  Patriotism does not prevent the mind from being altered.  Imagine all the soldiers who have fought in wars and came home with PTSD, their patriotism should never be questioned because their state of mind was altered for the service they provided their country.

Ursa, I don't think anyone is calling the town of Oak Ridge's reputation into question after the war, when the conditions became better.  I am sure it is a fine town. 

Quote
All I can say is that the rudeness experienced by Celia had disappeared by 1953.

I am interested in how you were aware the attitudes of the "insiders" changed toward the "outsiders" by 1953.  Is that when you moved there, and you were not aware it existed before you moved to Oak Ridge?   My hope is that you are correct, and these CEW workers were not treated with the prejudice and rudeness, they experienced while working for CEW. It would be my hope they were able to mainstream into society, and would feel a part of the community enough to remain there the rest of their lives.  It is so beneficial to have you with us, able to give us such insight and knowledge.  Thank you for any and all information you can provide us with. 

Oh how I would love to have been able to sit with any of these women as D.K. did, and gotten their first hand word.  I am hoping these next chapters can give us even more insight to the humanistic life vs. the technical process of alloys.


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
What would have happened to the men that left?  There was a tremendous manpower shortage during the war.  I'm guessing they would have been quickly snapped up to work somewhere, maybe not so top- secret.  Or they might have been drafted, if fit.  I wonder if the workers got deferred to work at Oak Ridge, or if they weren't draftable for reasons that wouldn't matter for factory work.

It's not surprising that Virginia Spivey could get transferred to a lab job once things really got going.  They were probably really short of chemists by then.  She figured out exactly what chemicals  she was working on.  I wonder if she guessed that this must be leading to a bomb?

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4092
PatH.,  You are the scientist, and the best person to answer your question.  Would you have guessed it was leading to a bomb?  My suspicion is, yes!   ;)

I would imagine the healthy young men from CEW was drafted once the war ended.  Back then we still needed them.

   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9951
My Uncle Lou was deemed more valuable to the war effort as a civilian. His expertise was in the new field of radar technology. He would have been one of the men installing, tweaking, repairing and training military people how to use it. He stayed with it until his retirement, traveling the world. I still have a few of the goodies he brought back as gifts. And oh how wonderful that big old world broadcast radio was that he let us use for a few years on one of his overseas assignments.

Anyhow, I expect that a few, not many probably, of those who left CEW also found themselves in such civilian positions.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
I agree, Fry - There was plenty of opportunity for Uncle Lou and others like him to contribute to the war effort...other than in CEW.   So who was working in CEW?  For some, it was because the pay was better...but growing numbers of enlisted men found themselves rerouted to TN.  Could they refuse?  Did they have an option?

This was a good question, Marcie.
"In this chapter, (Chapter 6) what are some of the traits of young women recruited for the Project that made them successful?"
This begins to answer the question here - why some of the young women were able to adapt to life at CEW.  These are probably the women you knew, Ursa - those who chose to stay in Oak Ridge for the rest of their lives.  

Everyone doesn't seem to be suffering under these circumstances.  When we get to next week's chapters, Bella, we'll see more of those traits Dr. Clarke found important to explain why some succeeded and others did not - their sense of humor and positive attitude.  But for now, DK cites their ability to complete their tasks with little difficulty, not ask questions - and then really enjoy their social time.  Clearly the married women at home alone - or with babies, are going to need more than bowling alleys to boast their spirits.  Has anyone seen any of the "girls" interviewed - (those nine introduced in the beginning of the book )show signs of discontent?  

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
The one who really ought to show discontent is Kattie.  She's separated from her children, for who knows how long, she can't live with her husband even though he's at Oak Ridge too, and segregation cuts her out of a lot of the off-duty relaxation.  She can't even do her beloved cooking until she gets a stranger to make her some baking pans from scrap metal.  I wonder where she'll get the stove?  The only good side is they're making good money and helping the war effort.  But if she's despondent it doesn't show here.

When a committee of blacks wrote pleading for equal housing for married couples, all they got was an extra background check! ::)

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
That's awful.  I missed that, Pat.  Kattie seems to have adapted to the situation though.  I can't wait to find out what she did after the war.  I know she doesn't like the cold winters in TN...I doubt she'll be one who opts to stay.  Trying not to read ahead.  My fear is that she"ll get caught breaking rules.

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
I thought that I read somewhere that men who left were drafted into the Army. I can't find it right now. Maybe it was the men who WERE soldiers, and who were reassigned to CEW, who were sent back to the Army if they left CEW.

Pat, you're right that Kattie would have a right to to be discontent for all of the reasons you state. I think that being able to send most of her paycheck home to support her kids made everything bearable.  Good point about what the Blacks got for trying to get the housing they were promised. Complaints seem to be met by the authorities with additional scrutiny of those who expressed dissatisfaction.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
My, all the problems with makeup and clothes bring back old memories.  I wasn't old enough to wear stockings, but what you did when you didn't have any was put suntan makeup on your legs, then fake the seams with eyebrow pencil.  Come to think of it, at least you didn't have to worry about crooked seams.

And parachute nylon: did any of you ever try to sew with it?  Its threads are slithery, so it doesn't hold stitches well--your seams pull right out.  I can't imagine making anything as complicated as a wedding dress with it.

There's a Miller shop in the town.  I assume this is I. Miller shoes.  The pair Celia bought to make a big impression cost her $23.  $35 a week was a good wage.  I remember them from after the war--classic simple black pumps and dressy flats, the shoes to impress.  They were expensive, but I don't think they were THAT expensive.  I never had any.