Author Topic: Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan Mid-September/October Book Club Online (Read 49302 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #40 on:** September 17, 2014, 10:50:37 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in!

Discussion Begins September 15
Everyone is welcome!

The Girls of Atomic City
by Denise Kiernan

Based on first-person interviews with women who served at Oak Ridge, several of them now in their eighties and nineties, Denise Kiernan tells the true story of young women during World War II who worked in a secret city dedicated to making fuel for the first atomic bomb—only they didn’t know that.

At the dawn of the atomic age, the community of Oak Ridge, Tenn., rose up around the secret work taking place there in support of the war effort. At the heart of those efforts were thousands of women from across the country who did their part to help secure the United States while maintaining a public silence.

They all knew something big was happening at Oak Ridge, but few could piece together the true nature of their work until the bomb was dropped over Hiroshima, Japan, and the secret was out. The shocking revelation: the residents of Oak Ridge were enriching uranium for the atomic bomb. They had NO idea!

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

September 15-21~ Introduction & Revelation, August 1945;
   Chapters 1, 2, 3 (62 pages)
September 22-28 ~ Tube Alloy, 1938
   Chapters 4,5 (to pg.98)

RELEVANT LINKS:
   An Interview with Denise Kiernan about Atomic City girls, Part 2 Interview with Denise Kiernan,
Music the girls would have listened to,
2013 Interview with Celia Klemski,

For Your Consideration
September 22-28

Tubealloy ~ Lise and Fission, 1938 (pg 57)
1. Are you already familiar with these scientists? Does the book change your feelings about them?
2. What happens when you split the nucleus of a uranium atom? How can this lead to a bomb?

Chapter 4 ~ The Project's Welcome for New Employees
1. Could the delay in processing background checks have been deliberate?
2.In this chapter and the next, we meet the rest of our cast of characters, and see them beginning to cope with this strange setup. Which ones do you relate to most, and why?

Tubealloy ~ Leona and Success in Chicago. December, 1942
1. What was the significance of Fermi's successful experiment?
2. Was it justified to do this experiment in the middle of Chicago, when it might have blown up a big chunk of the place? Why would they have made that decision?

Chapter 5 ~ Only Temporary Spring Into Summer, 1944 (to pg.98}
1. The workers don't have any idea what they are doing, are living in awful conditions, and are asked by the government to take it on blind trust that they are helping to win the war. Would people now accept that?
2. Are you surprised at how differently the black workers were treated?
3.How did people cope with the problems of living at Oak Ridge? Could you have managed? What crucial role did women have in shaping the character of the community?

DLs: JoanP, Marcie, PatH,

bellamarie · « **Reply #41 on:** September 17, 2014, 11:18:35 AM »

Have book in hand and plan to begin reading to catch up.

JoanP.,

Quote

Makes you wonder how the Project could override these laws and continue the discrimination? Is this a snapshot of the powers of the Project?

Nothing ever surprises me any more where the government is concerned. We keep reminding each other to not judge because it was a different time. Personally, I don't see much difference from then to now. We still have high unemployment, people not being able to afford a higher education willing to take whatever job comes their way, and the government still continues to not be transparent.

Becki,

Quote

We can't judge these people by today's standards."

No, we can not judge them by "today's standards", but surely they should have been held to the same standards of safety to the community back then, as well as today.

It reminds me of the movie Erin Brockovich, where people were dying and contracting cancer, to do contamination of their water.
"A study, released in 2010 by the California Cancer Registry, showed that cancer rates in Hinkley "remained unremarkable from 1988 to 2008".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich

Ciao for now~

ANNIE · « **Reply #42 on:** September 17, 2014, 11:56:34 AM »

Well, ursamajor, we will be celebrating our 62nd also this year. Dec 17th,1952. Congratulations to you and your hubby.
I have a HB copy of the book and am truly interested in the first 3 chapters. The history of uranium and the women scientists who were involved in the atomic bomb is fascinating.
In the back of the book, we have a list of other books written by Denise Kiernan. They are:
"Signing Their Lives Away" and "Signing Their Rights Away". Both books are about the same things. "The Fame and misfortune of the 39 men who signed the Declaration of Independence". She co-wrote these two books with her husband, Joseph D'Agnese.

Frybabe · « **Reply #43 on:** September 17, 2014, 12:08:46 PM »

I tend to forget about Fermi at Chicago. What if the experiment had gone horribly wrong? Why ever in the world did they place such a dangerous lab in a big city?

Frybabe · « **Reply #44 on:** September 17, 2014, 12:17:28 PM »

Well, I guess I will have to return my book and put a new hold on it. Aside from at least one hold, two books are overdue, one is "in transit", and three are not due until next week. I may get lucky, if whoever is overdue takes it back today or tomorrow.

ANNIE · « **Reply #45 on:** September 17, 2014, 12:39:53 PM »

Here's a link to a podcast concerning the sci-fi story that was published in a sci-fi magazine in Feb, 1944. Caused an uproar in the community at the Pentagon? http://boingboing.net/2014/07/29/the-1944-science-fiction-story.html

Most interesting!

ursamajor · « **Reply #46 on:** September 17, 2014, 02:24:18 PM »

Thanks, everybody.

I believe people were already aware of the dangers of radiation, but with our soldiers dying in Europe and the Asian islands those in charge didn't worry too much about a little radiation exposure for the workers. A number of the people who have claimed compensation for radiation injuries worked in contruction areas, which of course did not include women.

The link below will tell you more than you really want to know about disease caused by radiation in Oak Ridge.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/hac/oakridge/phact/c_3.html

bellamarie · « **Reply #47 on:** September 17, 2014, 02:26:06 PM »

Found this interesting:

pg. 11 "Other women in other cities were doing what they could, moving into the workforce in record numbers. A cover of the Saturday Evening Post in September 1943 would depict a Stars and Stripes-clad woman, marching forward, toting everything from milk, a typewriter and a compass to a watering can, telephone, and monkey wrench. Women's roles in the workforce were expanding exponentially.

I was trying to image what this cover looked like and had to Google it.

http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Rosie-to-the-Rescue-Saturday-Evening-Post-Cover-September-4-1943-Posters_i7566976_.htm?AID=96280778&ProductTarget=95166830330

"Rosie to the Rescue" Saturday Evening Post Cover, September 4,1943
By: Norman Rockwell Item #: 7566976

Talk about multi tasking.....yep this would be your typical American woman. I especially like the oxford shoes. Didn't we all have a pair of those at some point in our years growing up? They held up like steel boots.

ANNIE · « **Reply #48 on:** September 17, 2014, 03:14:30 PM »

We have the jigsaw of this one also by Rockwell:

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/52/5271/V3RZG00Z/posters/norman-rockwell-rosie-the-riveter-saturday-evening-post-cover-may-29-1943.jpg

BeckiC · « **Reply #49 on:** September 17, 2014, 04:18:29 PM »

Oh I love The Saturday Evening Post cover. Haha...things haven't changed.

I have been reading many of these links. Wonderful what sort of information is available at a fingertip...literally.

bellamarie you are giving me credit for someone else's thoughts but I agree with the statement and your view as well. I think we have evolved somewhat when it comes to "public safety," OSHA guidelines, etc but there are so many other factors involved. I became involved with a local Say No to GMO group which I will use as an example. There are those who believe strongly GMO's are a good thing and are good for the environment and there are those that feel strongly that is incorrect and we are ruining our health, our lands, our very basic crops by GMO's. Big business says good, little people say bad. Who do you think gets their way?

Oak Ridge was government run and unfortunately things are done differently. I truly believe our national security depends on being able to be "secretive." It flies in the face of what we the people demand from our government, transparency, but in my humble opinion it is a necessary evil. I listen to the news and cannot believe we report every move we make. If we know what we plan on doing than the countries we are "fighting" know it too and that concerns me greatly. My brother said there is no time for thought and adjustment in today's instant everything. But I digress. Regarding our Oak Ridge community, I agree with Ursa's comment the dangers were probably known but the bigger issue was this ongoing horrible war and how to stop it. From the other links it would appear as though studies were being done to see the effects of radiation on the workers. Unfortunately we sometimes end up being the lab rats. The best we can hope for at that point is some sort of compensation.
Oh, I've gone on and on. Sorry. It is all very interesting.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #50 on:** September 17, 2014, 05:45:32 PM »

Congrats to you Ursa and to your husband.

I am cataractless in my right eye, but still have some swelling in my cornea and am still a little bleary. I can read the ipad because of being able to enlarge the print and can, with a little blearing, read the narrative of the book, the "notes" are a little harder, but i'm with you.

Just a point about the Exec Order 8802 that ordered no discrimination in employment in the Dept of Defense. It was Mary McCloud Bethune's influence on herfriend Eleanor Roosevelt that started the discussion about non-discrimination in federal programs, first in the New Deal programs and then following through on the defense programs. ER, obviously, convinced FDR to sign the Exec Order, although he resisted at first - he had to have the southern Democratic vote you know.

Even with an Exec Order, as we are still well aware, not everybody follows the Orders everytime. The Order applied only to employment, not to housing or dining or shopping, etc. Even after Truman had ordered the integretion of the armed forces in 1948, the "clubs" - non-commissioned officers, enlisted men's, officer's clubs were almost all still segregated - even at Ft Dix in NJ - well north of the Mason-Dixon Line. I wonder if Ken Burns addresses that influence of ER in his tv series? I'm sure he will.

As for stepping out of a car into knee-deep mud..........they couldn't put down some wooden sidewalks??? It was "a man's world." I'm sure they all wore combat boots or construction boots, the women should have too.

As to why people came to work there not knowing what, where and why, so far i've read about Celia who was already a gov't employee, others who were living close by, Blacks who didn't have many job options even in wartime and especially not good paying ones, professionals who were selected/asked/encouraged to go to work on something important.

The secrecy did pose interesting problems.....how DID you get mail? That wasn't answered yet in my reading, but my guess is that they might have had an APO address as soldiers still have. And it was hard to believe , on pg 55, when Celia asked how she should address the mysterious uniformed man with no nametag, that a general would respond "Just call me GG". Secrecy makes for unusual behaviors. Lol

Curious how we've never heard of these women physicists (tic)

I'm glad Kiernan is bringing them to our attention.

Thank you all for your wonderful comments, pictures and links. They 're what makes this the best book group I'm a part of.

Jean

ANNIE · « **Reply #51 on:** September 18, 2014, 09:26:22 AM »

we will be leaving today and won't be in touch electronically most of the time we are gone. Also we will be be very busy with family. I have not been able to stop reading this most interesting book but will not mention anymore than the 3 chapters. Will return by the 22nd, Tuesday.
My only connection with Oak Ridge was through friends of my parents who were moving there in 1949. They spent the night with us while traveling. The father was going to a new job but couldn't speak about it. As far as I know, they are still there. Kidding!

JoanP · « **Reply #52 on:** September 18, 2014, 11:26:04 AM »

Annie! - haven't had the chance to view the Deadline podcast yet. Do you think the "girls" viewed this in 1944? If so, I wonder if they concluded that the Project they had been working was anything like "Deadline"? Maybe we'll hear about that at the end of the book. We'll be watching for you. September 22 is Monday! You'll be just in time for the start of the discussion of the next Chapters as you can see in the heading.
September 22-28 ~ TubeAlloy, 1938
Chapters 4,5

Frybabe - I'm running into the same situation as you are - need to wait till 4 of the 12 copies in our library are returned before I can check out the book again. I have taken notes on the next section so I'll be okay for the coming chapters next week. I see you have read ahead too - as you are asking about the experiments in Chicago. I hope we both get lucky for the week starting September 29!:D

JoanP · « **Reply #53 on:** September 18, 2014, 11:37:39 AM »

Jean! Hoping each day is better than the one before! When did you say the other eye is to be treated? Thanks you for sharing your thoughts with us, despite the difficulty.

Am watching and enjoying the Ken Burns' Roosevelts series too - interesting to know what was going on behind the scenes... I wonder how closely FDR was monitoring the Oak Ridge Project - and the social implications of bringing so many people of different backgrounds to live together "temporarily" in those 90 sq. miles.

As Becki points out - "Oak Ridge was government run and unfortunately things are done differently." Besides, who was going to report the conditions at Oak Ridge - and to whom would they report the unfair practices? You'd risk losing your job.

As Jean says, "blacks who didn't have many job options even in wartime and especially not good paying ones" couldn't risk what they had in Oak Ridge.
War time is not the best time to file complaints!

JoanP · « **Reply #54 on:** September 18, 2014, 12:01:48 PM »

Ursa - thank you for your comments regarding the dangers of working at Oak Ridge at this time and the link you provided - I admit I got lost in the detailed report. As you say, white males suffered more effects - especially later in life, because of where they worked. I'm wondering what those women who worked in Y-12 were working on? I'm hoping to hear directly from the girls the author interviewed...and what they have to say about their friends and spouses they worked with in Oak Ridge in the 40's.

"The population under study included white males employed at least one month between 1943 and 1983, who were followed for various periods of time in several investigations, most recently through 1994. The mortality experience of this group was compared to that of the general population. Significantly elevated leukemia and overall cancer mortality were observed among the workers at the later follow-up time periods. The leukemia mortality was found to be related to both internal and external radiation exposure. Workers at the X-10 facility were included in several multi-site investigations, as well as internationally pooled site studies designed to estimate leukemia and overall cancer mortality risks from exposure to external ionizing radiation."

A second group of studies was conducted at the Y-12 nuclear weapons fabrication facility on the Oak Ridge Reservation, by researchers at ORAU, UNC, the University of Michigan, and NIOSH.
In one study, lung cancer was found to be significantly elevated in workers employed for longer periods or hired at an older age. The most recent follow-up of Y-12 workers, which includes nonwhite and women workers, found significantly elevated lung cancer mortality compared to the general population." Again, I'm wondering what those women who worked in Y-12 were working on?

"Workers employed at the K-25 gaseous diffusion facility have been studied for mortality associated with exposure to uranium dust and-separately-to various chemicals, including epoxy resin, powdered nickel, and nickel oxides. Among all workers employed for a month or more over a 40-year period, significant increases in mortality were observed for all causes of death, respiratory system cancers and other respiratory deaths, bone cancer, mental disorders, and accidents. Studies have shown workers handling nickel powder had rates of buccal cavity and pharynx cancer deaths almost 20 times as high as other workers. Welders were not found to have elevated lung cancer mortality rates. Workers exposed to epoxy resins and solvents had overall cancer mortality rates similar to those of other workers, with the exception of bladder cancer"

Frybabe · « **Reply #55 on:** September 18, 2014, 03:15:04 PM »

I thought I read just to the end of Chapter 3, JoanP. (p80 or p81).

The library system besides five books, also has an LP book and an audio CD. The LP book, for some reason, isn't due back until the beginning of November. Huh? I didn't know you could hold a book that long; that's over a month. This is a very, very popular title.

bellamarie · « **Reply #56 on:** September 18, 2014, 09:50:54 PM »

Becki,

Quote

"Oak Ridge was government run and unfortunately things are done differently." Besides, who was going to report the conditions at Oak Ridge - and to whom would they report the unfair practices? You'd risk losing your job.

I will play the devil's advocate here for the sake of answering this. Someone, could have easily secretly broke this to the media/press. I believe back in those times the journalists were more readily and willing to print and expose things like this, and keep their source protected. They did their jobs, reported news! Today our media covers up everything, and reports Hollywood happenings. It's sad to watch morning shows that used to keep us informed of world news, and now all I get is celebrity news or recipes. The news has turned into Entertainment Tonight.

I could not imagine any of the employees would file a complaint of any kind with CEW, they certainly would lose their job.

p.s. Sorry Becki if I credited you earlier for someone else's thoughts.

JoanP · « **Reply #57 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:54:42 PM »

Frybabe, now I'm really confused. Can you tell us once again which copy of the book you are reading? Is it one with large print? We've been basing our discussion schedule on the paging in the regular hardcover, in which Chapter 3, "Through the Gates" ends on page 56. Can you clear this up for us?

Oh no Bella, I can't see anyone from the inside leaking information to the press - no matter how bad the food, or unfair the housing arrangements. Consider the times. These hardships were considered necessary to win the war, to bring the boys home. The enemy (Germany) was known to be perfecting a weapon that would defeat this goal. For anyone to leak details of the secret project would have been unpatriotic...an act that would aid the enemy.

ursamajor · « **Reply #58 on:** September 19, 2014, 12:54:53 PM »

Many of the women were employed as secretaries or office workers, and probably not exposed to much radiation. A large number were "calutron girls", who sat and watched dials and made adjustments to keep the numbers in a certain range. I don't really understand the various things they were monitoring, but I don't think they would have been exposed to a lot of radiation either. That may explain why women were not included in the first radiation study. I had a friend who had been a calutron girl; she lived to be in her eighties. She never talked about her wartime experiences.

It is hard to sort out what is long ago radiation damage and what is just the disabilities associated with old age. Some men complained that radiation exposure had caused them to lose their hair or caused their arthritis. The situation is further complicated by the fact that almost everybody was a heavy smoker - assuming they could get cigarettes - during the was years.

JoanP · « **Reply #59 on:** September 19, 2014, 01:12:29 PM »

Ursa, it seems possible that because the workers were kept in compartmentalized jobs and locations, that they never did come into contact with the tubealloy product that would have caused noticeable health issues at the time.

I'm interested in these "girls" Denise Kiernan chose to feature in her book. Can think of two reasons she chose them. They were living, and willing to talk about their experiences...OR because they were from different backgrounds, working in different capacities. At first I thought that it must have taken forever to conduct background checks as thorough as what Jane Halliburton Greer went through. They interviewed every school she went to, every neighbor...butI think people like Kattie Strickland and her husband from Alabama were hired for janitorial service...and probably didn't require this sort of investigation.
The majority seem to be young girls right out of high school - small town girls, without extensive background to investigate.

What do you think? Were all of the girls introduced at the start still alive and willing to be interviewed?
it would be interesting to see who of those interviews are still living...starting with Celia Szapka (the gal with the I.Miller shoes. (did you ever own a pair? I did)

Yep - here's Celia - an extensive interview. She's 95 now...sharp as a whip. You can listen to the 2013 Interview here... As of 2013, she still lived in Oak Ridge. Did you ever meet her, Ursa?

Next in the "Cast of Characters" - Toni Peters...(her aunt and uncle's farm was seized for the Project...)

bellamarie · « **Reply #60 on:** September 19, 2014, 04:22:26 PM »

I was listening to the interview Denise Keirnan had with Jon Stewart from the link above. It was only part 1. Not sure how to listen to part 2. They go to break and say they will be right back. Denise does explain how certain compartments and jobs never came in contact whatsoever with the plutonium, so they would have had no known health issues. I was hoping to hear the next segment.

JoanP., You are possibly right about the people not being able to reveal anything. We live in an age where no one can be trusted with confidential information including our own president and his aides that I keep thinking how easy it would have been for someone to leak it to the press/media back then. There was certainly more patriotism, loyalty and trust back then for sure.

I had never heard of I. Miller shoes until reading it in this book. Manolo Blahnik's are the rave today. Who on earth can afford them?

mabel1015j · « **Reply #61 on:** September 19, 2014, 08:17:40 PM »

The second part of the interview on the Daily Show.....

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/search?keywords=Kiernan

bellamarie · « **Reply #62 on:** September 19, 2014, 10:39:21 PM »

Thank you mable for part 2 of the interview. Imagine that! We are discussing transparency, and moral obligations of the government with this project and Jon Stewart brings up these very issues. Denise K. tells Jon S. the government was interested in how plutonium would affect the human body so they secretly inject a black man who goes through a stop sign, and ends up being taken to a hospital. Unbeknownst to him, he becomes the candidate to be injected with plutonium. I also thought it was interesting how Denise K. tells Jon S., how after the bomb has been dropped on Hiroshima, the president goes on television and reveals there has been people in Oak Ridge Tenn. working on this. OMG! So things really haven't changed in all these years, we still have presidents giving out information that could put people or areas in danger.

Okay, well I am going to go and read the next assigned pages, since I will be out of town tomorrow and don't want to get behind. Going back in time, to Sauder Village, in Archbold Ohio.

Frybabe · « **Reply #63 on:** September 20, 2014, 06:04:16 AM »

Not pleased to hear about how our government tested plutonium on an unwitting citizen. I don't think I even want to touch that it was a black man that was chosen. Was it a wrong place, wrong time situation that he got pickedf? Were there others besides him?

It reminds me of the accusations around here years back that the government was secretly releasing viruses (or chemicals, I forget exactly) in the turnpike tunnels and possibly on base. Chemical warfare or counter-measures experiments to see how something might be introduced and spread? Benign or not, it raises ones hackles to find out you are or were experimented on without your permission.

JoanP · « **Reply #64 on:** September 20, 2014, 09:56:09 AM »

Thank you for the link to Part 2, Jean. Wasn't going to add it to our heading until we get to the end of the book - as Part 2 answers our question of the the reaction of the Oak Ridge girls AFTER the Bomb was dropped. But if you want to read that before reading the rest of the book, it is very revealing.

We've got two more days to consider the first chapters...two items we missed - the way the land was acquired for the Project - and the Discovery of Tubealloy. Did you notice that the female scientists involved were all foreign? And that their findings were considered secondary to the males - even mocked as Ida Nadduck was when she questioned the great and respected Enrico Fermi?

bellamarie · « **Reply #65 on:** September 20, 2014, 10:55:51 AM »

Frybabe, I'm with you on the fact they decided on that particular person, a black man, without his consent, did give me cause to wonder if his life was not valued as much as a white person's. If you listen to the interview D.K states there were others they later tested without their knowledge. The government was getting worried about what damage they could be doing to the thousands of employees at the CEW, so they needed to test it on humans to find out results. War time or not, it is blatantly, unconstitutional, illegal and A moral, to use humans for testing, without their knowledge or permission. But then our government has been known to step outside the Constitution for their own purposes. We the people, get to know about it after the fact, provided the ends justifies the means.

JoanP., As far as how the women reacted after finding out, D.K. did not really reveal much in the interview. Mostly she says, when they found out. I don't think it's detrimental to our discussion knowing.

When I was reading about how the government was taking families homes and land from them, giving them little money for them and little time to relocate, my heart went out to them. There were families of generations who lived on their land. Their home and belongings are all they had. I realize they say, that particular climate and area was perfect for the place to build for this project, but to displace families, to create a bomb to destroy other human beings, is hard for me to understand. The United States has so much vast, open land. I was traveling from Las Vegas to Laughlin Nev. a few years back, and there were a few Government isolated sites, that I am sure were used for secret projects. It was isolated and mostly desert land. Not a sole to see for miles and miles.

I guess what I keep thinking is, what if, something would have gone terribly wrong, and the plutonium they were creating for this A Bomb, would have gone off in that plant? Imagine how the outcome of that would have been, right here in the United States. All precautions can be factored into a project, but there is always room for human error, especially when you are taking anyone and everyone off the streets with no knowledge or education of what they are dealing with.

Got to run, off for the day..... Ciao for now~

BeckiC · « **Reply #66 on:** September 21, 2014, 08:14:06 AM »

Great interview! Part 1 is wonderful. I will try to delay watching Part 2.

The taking of land by the government was nothing new. But that is another story. It is horrific though the number of deep-rooted families that were displaced and often with not enough money or a place to go. We certainly can be a ruthless bunch. Sad really. I found it encouraging there were those who tried to fight essentially "giving up" their land. Again, history proves the government is usually the victor. Such a balance our government must maintain to ensure it is "of the people, by the people, for the people." It's a big job. And we make mistakes.

Interesting to me, I was telling the husband about the book and I started off describing the place the a-bomb was built and he said oh Los Alamos (Site Y) and I said and also Oak Ridge, another site (Site Y). He likes to watch The History Channel and knew a lot about all of this EXCEPT what this book is about. And that makes me wonder why was this particular area still kept a secret. Hmmm? And if I my reading comprehension is correct, Site X, Oak Ridge was used to produce the bomb material and the Los Alamos site was where it was assembled. So it could be just a matter of what story was more interesting. But I have to say, I am finding this story quite interesting. Maybe because I am a woman and that was a huge time for us being in the workplace and performing many jobs traditional to men. Rosie the Riveter!

In my opinion, the male dominant world was the reason for the female scientists ideas to be considered irrelevant and mocked.

Now to go listen to Celia's interview......
Finished listening. I really like Celia. Cindy Kelly, not so much. Felt like an interrogation instead of an interview.

I liked Celia's answer to how did they feel once they heard the news of the bomb. She said relieved. They didn't have to keep secrets anymore. Can you imagine the daily pressures of watching what you say?

ursamajor · « **Reply #67 on:** September 21, 2014, 10:07:08 AM »

Colleen black is still alive. I don't know about Celia.

When my husband was cleared for ORSORT he was only 22. The FBI investigated his background for 10 years back, which means they talked to people who knew him in junior high!

There has been repeated government taking of land in east Tennessee. Land was confiscated for the Smoky Mountains National Park, for impoundment of water behind the TVA dams, and finally for the Oak Ridge Reservation. A few people actually had their property confiscated three times! I don't think any of these things could be done today; it would be in the courts for decades.

The project was located in east Tennessee for several reasons: It was thinly populated, it was inland and away from population centers, and there was a source for massive amounts of electric power, mostly generated by TVA. The project required enormous amounts of electricity.

BeckiC · « **Reply #68 on:** September 21, 2014, 11:18:41 AM »

I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement Ursa regarding why that area was chosen.
"The project required enormous amounts of electricity."

Site X was Oak Ridge-- my typo.
May I ask what ORSORT stands for?
Nowadays we leave so much of our "fingerprints" in what we buy, what we look at, what we "like" that the government already has a good idea about us. Scary thought.

JoanP · « **Reply #69 on:** September 21, 2014, 11:42:32 AM »

Yes, electricity - and lots of water! Thank you, Ursa! I thought it was notable - those working within the CEW didn't complain about inequities...but that didn't mean those whose land was confiscated for the plant didn't complain. I noticed the reference to the House Military Affairs Committee - the results of the farmers' complaints were predictable, don't you think- considering the war?

House Military Affairs Committee Hears Complaints of the dispossessed .

I found Toni Peters, one of those featured in the Introduction - Toni Peters Schmitt. She was the girl from Clinton, whose aunt and uncle's peach orchard was taken. When she was 18, she began to work at CEW -
She says in this interview - that she loved OAK RIDGE - no detectable hard feelings over the confiscated land -

Toni Peters Interview in 2004 with Jim Kolb

Here is a link to her OBITUARY - note that she married an Oak Ridge boy - and in 2012 died at the age of 85 and was buried in Oak Ridge Cemetery.

And Ursa tells us that Colleen Black is alive too.
I'm beginning to think that all of those featured in the Introduction were living at the time this book was written and Denise Kiernan made use of their first-person interviews ...not from hear-say.
I enjoyed Celia's 2013 interview too - put it in the heading. I'm hoping she's alive to enjoy the book. Now that you mention it, Becki, I thought Cindy Kelly was a bit to pushy, assuming that Celia needed prompting...while Celia took it in stride - as sharp as a tack!

ps a question for the science majors - the difference between plutonium and uranium? Some seem to be using these two interchangeably. My understanding - separating uranium for the Gadget was the purpose of the Oak Ridge labor. Am I wrong?

Frybabe · « **Reply #70 on:** September 21, 2014, 01:12:09 PM »

Plutonium is, except for extremely rare occurrences, not natural but is a by product from reactors. It's atomic number is 94. Uranium 235 is what they use to make plutonium. It's atomic number is 92. Los Alamos website has an article about Uranium. http://periodic.lanl.gov/92.shtml I skipped over the properties section, but the rest has some interesting bit of info in it.

bellamarie · « **Reply #71 on:** September 21, 2014, 01:19:55 PM »

I too noticed that D.K. in her interviews uses the word plutonium, instead of uranium. Interesting? I'm not a scientist but I did Google and find this: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090112152740AAebXVc

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uranium has 92 protons and plutonium has 94

plutonium is extremely scarce on earth because the half-lives of its isotopes are generally much shorter than isotopes of uranium, so the most of the plutonium that formed in supernovas and was deposited on earth 4.6 billion years ago has since decayed away, whereas uranium isotopes have a much longer half-lives and much still exists naturally. Most plutonium is made sythetically in nuclear reactors. Certain isotopes of uranium and plutonium are fissile and can cause a nuclear explosion/chain reaction once they are imploded or exposed to a neutron source.

They would not explode from a hammer hit, fire, or electrical current because they are not chemical explosives and instead require neutrons to undergo a chain reaction releasing energy (nuclear explosion). You also would not want to do any of these things to plutonium or uranium without wearing the proper respiratory equipment because it would release small Pu and U particles which could be inhaled. Pu and U are both alpha particle emitters, and they are generally not a radiation hazard unless they are inhaled, alpha particles cannot penetrate the skin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_parti...

One more link if you care to read up on this: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1idbux/eli5_whats_the_difference_between_uranium_and/

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From an engineering perspective, there is not a major difference between Plutonium and Uranium weapons. They can both be used in different configurations, and both require roughly the same masses to become supercritical (ie, they use roughly the same amount of metal). From the "weapon" perspective (ie, "The boom") Plutonium and Uranium are functionally the same.
Most US weapons are Plutonium based. Plutonium has favorable nuclear characteristics as compared with Uranium (namely: it has a broader neutron cross section - if that means anything to you (I will explain in a bit) - and it releases a slightly larger amount of energy per fission event.

Both Uranium or Plutonium can be used in fission bombs (what the US used in WW2) and in fusion bombs (modern thermonuclear bombs). Fusion bombs are much more powerful, but it has more to do with their design than the radioactive material used.
We also use depleted uranium in armor-piercing bullets since it is incredibly dense and only weakly radioactive.

I stumbled upon a couple more interviews of Denise Kiernan that I enjoyed.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment-jan-june13-atomiccity_03-26/

I like how Ray Suarez when interviewing Denise says:

RAY SUAREZ: Again and again, I had to remind myself while reading this book how circumscribed the lives of women were in 1943. You’re reading it with your 2013 head. And then you have to remember, oh, yes, they couldn’t do this. They couldn’t do that in so many cases.

This is what we all keep saying and trying to remind oursleves as we read this story. How easy it is to forget, and try to imagine those times into today's world.

I especially liked this interview since it gives a lot of images of the CEW plant and the many workers.

http://www.goodreads.com/videos/38200-denise-kiernan-interview

I like how Denise says, (paraphrasing), that there is probably no way today we could have a secret project with 70,000 people involved without it being found out. I agree with her, with social media such as Facebook, Twitter, Snapshot, Instagram, just to name a few, along with the thousands of blogs, and websites for media and the means journalists have to uncover things in the government today, it would seem impossible. Edward Snowden, sure was nothing like these 70,000 + people who could be trusted to keep confidential information safe, for the safety of our country. Is it the people were more loyal, patriotic, and trusting of our government back then, versus today? I know polls show only 38% of Americans trust our president and the percentage is even lower for their trust in our government. I highly doubt anyone would keep a secret this big today.

ursa, That is true, the TVA was essential to the project, in the book it stated, Oak Ridge during this project was using more electricity than New York City. Makes sense for them to choose this spot.

In D.K.'s interview she does say all the people she chooses to use in the book was alive at the times of her interviews, and some have passed on. She sounds like she spent enough time with these ladies, and some men, to see them as friends. I like D.K., she is someone I could see myself sitting down with, and just feeling very comfortable to talk about anything.

ursamajor · « **Reply #72 on:** September 21, 2014, 02:25:26 PM »

I very much enjoyed the interviews with Denise Kiernan. Thank you Bellamarie.

ORSORT was the Oak Ridge School of Reactor Technology.

I have been amused that recently the K-25 Credit Union (K-25 doesn't really exist anymore) has changed its name to Enrichment. Somebody enjoyed the play on words.

PatH · « **Reply #73 on:** September 21, 2014, 03:39:42 PM »

One more reason why Oak Ridge was chosen was that although it's isolated, it has good railroad access, a quick trip to New York and Chicago.

Right, Bellamarie, uranium and plutonium are two different elements, in the same way that silver and gold are different elements. Both have isotopes that can be used for bombs. The usable isotope of uranium, U-235, is a small fraction of the total, and has to be separated out by a very tedious process. Plutonium can be made by sticking the common uranium isotope, U-238, in a reactor and bombarding it with neutrons. This turns out to be easier, and you need less plutonium for a bomb. The Hiroshima bomb was uranium, and the Nagasaki bomb was plutonium.

In addition to being radioactive, both uranium and plutonium are really nasty poisons.

JoanP · « **Reply #74 on:** September 22, 2014, 09:16:09 AM »

...am I right in concluding that only usable uranium was produced in the Oak Ridge plant - and that the nasty poison, plutonium was left to the Los Alamos plant?

PatH · « **Reply #75 on:** September 22, 2014, 10:29:28 AM »

Yes, Oak Ridge produced enriched uranium. The Los Alamos plant mostly designed and assembled the bombs. The book says that most of the plutonium was produced at Site W, in Washington State. This would be the facility at Hanford, WA. They're mostly decommissioned now, and from time to time they get into the papers because they have a humongous nuclear waste contamination problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

bellamarie · « **Reply #76 on:** September 22, 2014, 11:31:10 AM »

Thank you for the link PatH., very interesting information on site W.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #77 on:** September 22, 2014, 01:58:24 PM »

I was a croctchety, cranky ole lady last night because I tried a new recipe for slow cooker chickeen that was not so good and I was having aches and pains and my eyes are at an inbetween spot of surgeries so that nothing is quite clear........... then I started reading Ch 4, which made me more crochety......... I read the quote from Vi Warren's journal at the beginning of Ch 4 and said "What?" I didn't get it at all.

Then the second sentence of the narrative read " If there WERE a penance designed specifically for the ".......etc...... Is noone teaching English grammar any more and we've already commented sev'l times about the lack of editing at publishing houses.

I would never have made it at Oak Ridge, even if I was unlucky enough to have taken the chance of going to a place I knew not where. On pg 65 an instructor tells a student that "Curiousity for curiousity's sake was not appreciated." Oh my! I'd be seent home!

Then on pg 69 she gives the Project's attitude toward women......high school girls weren't overly curious, a young woman of 18 from a small town background would do what she was told, no questions asked........ well, that is such a bad stereotype.

When they talked about Colleen not wanting to go to CEW after she had visited relatives and friends who were there, I wondered how did they have visitors? Could you tell family and friends where you were and how to get there?

Also, it began to remind me of the novel The Dollmaker by Harriot Aarow. In the story people from Appalachia went to Detroit for work during the war. That's one of favorite books, even if it has some very sad parts. Aarow does a marvelous job of writing the dialect of Appalachia, I could "hear" them talking as I read.

How did anyone survive into old age who worked at Oak Ridge, between the radiation and the asbestos, good lord! And the mental depression of being in those environments must have been heavy. Of course, Blacks had the worst of all the conditions. How do you rise above that kind of discrimination? I guess our instinct for survival keeps us going, mentally and physically.

Was this a particularly disturbing reading, or was i just being crumpy? .........

Jean

PatH · « **Reply #78 on:** September 22, 2014, 03:16:36 PM »

Jean, it's hitting you harder because you're uncomfortable, but everything you say is there. Worker turnover was remarkably high, even though ditching a war job was frowned on. The psychiatrists on-site found a very high level of stress- and exhaustion-related problems. But some people managed to thrive through a sense of adventure and doing something important, plus inventing a new sense of community.

The administrators who looked down on women owed them more than they realized; it was the women who forged a new, coherent community, which gave moral support to all.

JoanP · « **Reply #79 on:** September 22, 2014, 03:22:19 PM »

"Was this a particularly disturbing reading, or was i just being crumpy? ........."

Dear Jean, Dear Heart, if anyone has reason for feeling "crumpy"...t'is you! What happened to your chicken dinner? And then you strained to read with your eyes in their t'ween state - only to come away more upset than you already were before picking up the book!

My library copy is on the way back to the library shelf, where hopefully I can pick it up in a few days. Was Vi Warren's quote the one that disturbed you - "if there Were a penance"...or was it Denise Kiernan's narrative? Your post reminded me of several inconsistencies I'm finding, for example, the use of the term "TUBEALLOY" is sometimes one word, sometimes 'tube alloy" Which is it? I keep waiting for an explanation, but fear that there will be none.

I understand why the small town high school girls who did what they were told without questioning were desirable in this job where speed and accuracy in performing one small task would be preferable to those wanting more information about where "the pipe" was going to be used.

News:

Author Topic: Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan Mid-September/October Book Club Online (Read 49302 times)