Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online

[BarbStAubrey]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

March/April Book Club Online

Emma
by Jane Austen

"I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like”  Jane Austen of Emma. Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.

Schedule

March 1-5       Part I:  Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12   Part I:  Chapters 8-17
March 13        Part I:  Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19        Part II: Chapter 7-13  

QUESTIONS PART I CHAPTER 18, PART II CHAPTER 1-6.

1. Why does Emma dislike Jane Fairfax so much? Do you believe the reasons she gives?

2. What causes the "interesting and animating suspicion"  that "enters Emma's brain" while talking about Jane Fairfax? What evidence does she have? What kind of trouble will she get into now?

3. What does the news about Mr. Elton tell us about his character?

4. "Harriet was one of those, who, having once begun, would always be in love." Do you agree? Do you know anyone like that?

5. Why is Emma so predisposed to like frank Churchill? Why is Knightly so predisposed to dislike him? What is there about him that confirms both their opinions? What do you think?

QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13

1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?

2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?

3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?

4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?

5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?

6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?

7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?

Text of Emma ~~~ Emma review ~~~ Austen related books ~~~ Jane Austen biography

Discussion Leader: JoanK

  

[BarbStAubrey]

Hmm I hear y'all however, I see us thinking, as the author suggests, that Emma is meddling inappropriately as a match maker however, Mr. Knightly is as inappropriately meddling in Emma's life but it is OK since he is possibly 'grooming' her to be a good wife.

Seems to me we need to acknowledge when behavior is dangerous in addition to how we are carried along with the beauty of the words and scenes - there may be other views by this author in her other books however, I am commenting on this story and it makes me uncomfortable -

As to 'male entitlement' I am not speaking of the legal aspects but the behavior that was damaging to those who regardless if they chaffed under this 'historical socially acceptable' behavior or not, I'm hearing us suggest it is playful bantering - that to me is upsetting - if it is not to you, then god bless - I am only seeing it through my eyes and after having volunteered, taking the extensive 50 hours of training required, at the Battered Women's Center the behavior in this story is screaming at me.

[JoanK]

BARB: "after having volunteered, taking the extensive 50 hours of training required, at the Battered Women's Center the behavior in this story is screaming at me."

A lot off men's behavior as portrayed in literature screams at me, too: we even see rape portrayed as sexy (remember Scarlett O'Hara!), and certainly some other violence condoned.. I don't see Knightly battering Emma, I do see him continuing to tell her how to live her life. But perhaps we underestimate her: she's pretty feisty.

[BarbStAubrey]

No he is not battering nor do I suspect he will given his upbringing - he is letting her know that he does not approve of her behavior - as if his approval has validity and it is supposed to be seen as giving her attention - sorry that is not how it goes and yes, it was what set women for abuse as second class citizens -

While reading if we reverse the roles and see a women in the role of Knightly and how a man in the role of Emma would react - that is what gave me pause in the early part of the story as if we should be finding fault with Emma for meddling and expecting certain behavior from others, especially Harriet yet, we believe it is the 'right' of a man to think it is flirtatious for Knightly to expect certain behavior from Emma - that kind of expectations from a more powerful man or women, and we know he has the power at this time in history, just as Emma had the power of station over Harriet, and even Jane is not as wealthy therefore, not in the same power position as Emma and Isabella is shown as not very bright however, knightly trumps and is in the position to, as the expression is used to 'groom' the less powerful to be as they believe the 'lesser' should act more appropriately, which is controlling those in their surroundings to their comfort level.

Again, I do not think we are discussing other books and to say that because other authors do the same thing concerns me - it is like saying because Jack does it to his girlfriend we should not expect Mike to treat me any differently - granted there would not be a story since this is a major aspect of this story - what bothers me is we are suggesting it is cute or acceptable and flirtatious which sends a chill up my spine. No, we are not living then and we do not expect to see our daughters put up with this but, to ignore it and pretend, since it was written in a classic, makes it something acceptable without our remarking the inappropriateness, is how we implant in our minds that it is OK and part of acceptable patriarchy.  

I do not want the book to be banished or for any of us to stop reading it - I just hoped that comments would be made about the abusive behavior and that these examples of abusive behavior are passé - Emma may be feisty but we are supposed to see this as titillating - accepting that viewpoint is how we learn to dismiss the many small abuses so that we do not see strong women as cute and pretty but rather, playacting with their power.  

[marcie]

As I indicated earlier, I personally don't see Mr. Knightley as pushing Emma's buttons or flirting with her in most of the criticisms he gives of her. I think he, as a friend, is seriously trying to help her become what he sees as her potential (and I don't think it's because he is grooming her for marriage). He sees that there is no one else in her life who does that for her--men or women. I do think he carries some of his criticisms too far and is somewhat arrogant in his manner of critiquing Emma's behavior. That is something that I hope that he will see in himself later in the book and improve upon (as Darcy did in Pride and Prejudice). He has no authority to make Emma do or not do anything. He's making his views known to her. I don't think that he personally has anything to gain by pointing out some things that he thinks are inappropriate for Emma to be doing. I don't see him as abusive but I do think he could do better in when and how he gives his unsolicited advice to Emma.

[bellamarie]

I do have issues with Mr. Knightley appointing himself Emma's moral compass.  If you notice a few times Austen says he does it when Mr. Woodhouse is not in the room, or he moves closer to her so Mr. Woodhouse does not hear him.  When and if Mr. Woodhouse hears Mr. Knightley say negative comments to Emma, he replies with positive, and praise. 

Some have felt that Mr. Woodhouse has spoiled Emma, feeling Mr. Knightley is the only one willing to call her out, criticize her, or reign her in, so he has the right to.  I do not feel he has the right to constantly critic her every move and word, with everyone.  I say thank goodness she has a father who thinks so highly of her.  All girls should have a father like Mr. Woodhouse, he has raised her with enough self confidence to be different.  To not be a mold of expectations, to speak up for her beliefs, even when they are not popular.  She is a woman, not a child, and should be respected, as much as Mr. Knightley expects her, to respect others.  She has her flaws, just as everyone does, and yes, she is a work in progress, but it seems Mr. Knightley is never willing to cut her any slack.

Who knows, maybe that is why Jane Austen never married, maybe she is writing about controlling men, trying to mold women, and wanting to break the spirit of strong women, because she herself saw some men like this.  Austen was a woman ahead of her times, I sense she never would let a Mr. Knightley get away with this.

I am anxious to see how this story ends.  And yes, Marcie, in Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcey did indeed write Elizabeth a letter, acknowledging his wrongful actions, and arrogance in the end.  Without it, they could never have ended up together.  I can only hope Mr. Knightley, will come to see his extreme expectations, and treatment of Emma, and can repent, or maybe he will not end up with her at all. 

Barbara,   

Emma may be feisty but we are supposed to see this as titillating -

I have not seen Emma's spunkiness or feistiness as "titillating," if anything I see her holding her ground with Mr. Knightley.  I sense Austen has wrote it, for Mr. Knightley to see it as "titillating," and he does things, as I said prior, to push her buttons.  Emma does seem to smirk and smile with his annoyances of her, but I sense it is her defense mechanisms, because she finds him so critical of her. 

Marcie,   

I think he, as a friend, is seriously trying to help her become what he sees as her potential (and I don't think it's because he is grooming her for marriage). He sees that there is no one else in her life who does that for her+

If this is the case then why can he not do it comfortably in front of her father?  Because, he knows her father will not tolerate this type of behaviour from anyone, where his daughter is concerned, and rightfully so. 

I agree with Barbara, it seems a double standard, Emma is wrong for meddling, yet it is okay for Mr. Knightley to meddle. 

I don't see it as abuse, but I do see it as, NOT his place, and hope he realizes it, and comes to an apology.

Whether we agree or dislike it, the love novels of all ages seem to place the man in the same type of character as Mr. Knightley, Mr. Darcy, and even Rhett Butler.  Take a look at the disgusting book/movie, Fifty Shades of Grey., here the author gets away with taking it to an extreme, and women flocked to the stores, and theaters to romanticize, and condone this type of treatment on women.  I saw hundreds of posts of women saying they want to have a Christian Grey.  Throughout the ends of time the male characters have been portrayed in the dominating roles, trying to make stronger women characters submit to their all knowing ways, or live up to their potential.  Who gives the men, the entitlement, to assume they know, what is best for the female?  Authors/writers of course!

[PatH]

Barb, your points are extremely important, but it doesn't seem to me that's what we're seeing here.  Some of the things Knightly is criticizing are the same things Mrs. Weston tried, and failed, to get Emma to change.  I don't see anything titillating about their exchanges.  He is frustrated to see her messing up, and some of the things he criticizes have caused real harm to others.  He's definitely too sure that he's always right, but I agree with Marcie that he is seriously trying to help her realize her potential, the only one of her friends who does this.

[Halcyon]

5. Why is Emma so predisposed to like frank Churchill? Why is Knightly so predisposed to dislike him? What is there about him that confirms both their opinions? What do you think?

I think Frank Churchill is a delightful character.  He's Emma's age, outgoing, respectful to his father and stepmother, well mannered, fun and likes to gossip a bit plus he's someone new to their limited circle.  For all the reasons Emma likes him Mr. Knightly doesn't.  Maybe Mr. Knightly thinks Frank Churchill will be a bad influence on Emma simply because of his youth.

[bellamarie]

PatH., 

Some of the things Knightly is criticizing are the same things Mrs. Weston tried, and failed, to get Emma to change.  I don't see anything titillating about their exchanges.  He is frustrated to see her messing up, and some of the things he criticizes have caused real harm to others.  He's definitely too sure that he's always right, but I agree with Marcie that he is seriously trying to help her realize her potential, the only one of her friends who does this.

Much abuse has taken place, where men were only trying to help a woman, "realize her potential."  This is NOT his place to criticize her every move.  Mrs. Weston adores Emma, so even though she guided her in certain ways, she never criticizes her and finds constant fault in her, as Mr. Knightley does. 

Again, I think the novel fits the times of how love stories and movies were written, and yes, even continue to be written today. 

  

[bellamarie]

Halycon,  

For all the reasons Emma likes him Mr. Knightly doesn't.  Maybe Mr. Knightly thinks Frank Churchill will be a bad influence on Emma simply because of his youth.

Why does this not surprise me, Mr. Knightley would not like Frank Churchill, when Emma does?

I have some suspicions of Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill, but I won't cast judgement too soon.  Why did Frank want to go see Jane, but refuse to go with his father, or anyone else for that matter? 

This story is full of tangled webs,  and webs being spun.   Austen never bores her readers, that is for sure!

[Jonathan]

Well. Well. I'm seeing things in a new light. It has become a very upsetting book since I've been made aware of the scorn dripping from Austen's pen. And here I was going along being entertained by the granny of chick-lit.

Thanks, Pat, for pointing out the meaning of the 'crossed' writing in Jane's letter. I should have known. I've seen letters like that. What caught my attention, and informed my opinion, was something Miss Bates said about Jane's letter writing:

"I always make a point of reading Jane's  letters through to myself first, before I read them aloud to my mother, you know, for fear of there being any thing in them to distress her. Jane desired me to do it, so I always do."

 I thought Jane might be expressing her feelings too candidly and thinking better of it, for her grandmother's sake. I resolve to take this book more seriously. But even so, I wish there had been a warning about its content before we started.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan,

I wish there had been a warning about its content before we started.

What warnings of content, do you think could have been forthcoming?

As much as we can agree, or disagree, or agree to disagree, about how Mr. Knightley does, or does not overstep his place in being Emma's moral, social, etc. compass, for whatever his motives are, is this no more, or no less, as most love/romantic novels, and movies have been written throughout time?  Consider other authors, and screenwriters....Danielle Steele, EL James, Pearl Buck, Robin Oliveira, just to name a few, and what about poets, who have been famous for centuries with male dominating roles over women?  And what about famous painters, who put women in sexual, nude positions, to fancy their imaginations. And let us not forget the songwriter's lyrics. They romanticize the chase, the dominance, the submissiveness, and it has sold for centuries.  Only in todays world of real strength, acknowledgement and awareness, are women starting to say....NO MORE!  Some don't buy into it any more.  

Barbara, you speaking out really did bring my uncomfortable feelings about Mr. Knightley to the forefront.  I continuously kept saying, who made him the appointee of Emma's behaviour, but I also was seeing how Austen, like many of her other novels, was once again, using the chase and dominance in her characters.  

I have no idea how this ends.  If I were guessing by all the other books I have read of Austen, I would assume, Emma and Mr. Knightley have an awakening of their true feelings for each other, he realizes he has been way to hard on Emma, admits his own faults and they live happily ever after.  Then again, I could be so off the mark.  But, regardless, for me personally, I do see him grooming Emma to adapt her, in becoming what Mr. Knightley sees to be either a wife for himself, or someone else.  Either way...........it's NOT his place to try to change the person she is.  She has character flaws, just like everyone else.  Yes, her meddling has at times caused hurt to others, and she has acknowledged it, and has wanted to do better.  This I feel, is Austen's finest writing in this story, because she makes Emma human, fallible, remorseful, and yes, tempted to do it again.  

As in scripture,  James 8:7   "Let the person among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

I plan to continue reading the book.  I do want to see where this ends.  I will continue to root for Emma's happiness, and pray she stays the strong- minded, spunky woman, faults and all.  As for Mr. Knightley, as Scarlett O'Hara said,
"I can't think about that right now.  If I do I'll go crazy.  I'll think about that tomorrow."  

[BarbStAubrey]

I will continue to root for Emma's happiness, and pray she stays the strong- minded, spunky woman, faults and all. rah rah...

I am seeing their exchange now as a duel of power - as long as Emma is under her father's roof she has legally more power than most everyone except Mr. Knightly who is the male version of wealth and British morals - the other night during one of these background stories for Downton Abbey there was a point made how Britain was not so prim, proper in its soldiering of place - that the gentry was so scared by the French Revolution that their answer was to bring about great social order through place and manners.

OK getting past the behavior of Mr. Knightly towards Emma and seeing them as symbolic - and since this story was written only 16 years after the end of the 10 years French Revolution I can see Emma being the carefree young women of pre-Revolution - with  Knightly representing the new contained behavior that was going to save their skin so, it better be taken as serious.

Then looking up late eighteenth century I found a treasure trove - George the third was on the thrown till he died in 1820 - movies have shown him to be mad however, new science examining some of his hair found he had a rare genetic disease made worse by the treatment available at the time. He soldiered Britain through the 7 year war - dealt with the American Revolution - and the War of 1812 but was sickly and later went mad - cared for by his wife and his physician - so we have echoes of Emma's sickly father.

Granted Emma was the daughter but then she was head of the household - Charlotte queen to George III, who initiated the Charlotte Ball to celebrate his wife's birthday in 1780 and the Charlotte Ball is still a highlight of British Society - "The Queen Charlotte's Debutante Ball sees the daughters of the wealthy elite play a Downton lady for a day: Annual ball is held in Highclere Castle" - and so we have Emma with her dance parties.

These bits and pieces are not gender specific but do play a part in the story - "George had a learning disability. This made it extremely hard for him to do his studies and he did not even learn to read until he was 11. His tutors, however, were always extremely pleased with how hard he was willing to work." Jane Austen has reading or the lack of included in the story.

This story line does not fit Knightly but the quote I could see him making - "When he was a teenager, he met a young woman by the name of Lady Sarah Lenox. They fell in love and swore they would be married one day, but when George suggested the match, many of the people close to him disapproved. He then wrote to Sarah and told her "I am born for the happiness or misery of a great nation, and consequently must often act contrary to my passions."" - that seems to me to be a character trait of Knightly - he does not seem happy or miserable and shows little passion except to make sure Emma acts as becoming a women in British society that, from recently learned information was a new controlled and conforming culture of place and manners.

For me that bit is the saving grace reading this book because yes, I see the earmarks of the early stages of spousal abuse - controlling - however, if the behavior is taken away from the concept of an individual character and see it as an over arching development of a changing society that is exemplified by the characters in this story I can go for it.

Another couple of bits that I see woven into the story - first of all not woven in is that Queen Charlotte had 15 children of which 13 lived to be adults - OKaaa...

"The King enjoyed country pursuits and riding and preferred to keep his family's residence as much as possible in the then rural towns of Kew and Richmond-upon-Thames. He favoured an informal and relaxed domestic life, to the dismay of some courtiers more accustomed to displays of grandeur and strict protocol. Lady Mary Coke was indignant on hearing in July 1769 that the King, Queen, her visiting brother Prince Ernest and Lady Effingham had gone for a walk through Richmond town by themselves without any servants. "I am not satisfied in my mind about the propriety of a Queen walking in town unattended."" The propriety of the Queen was even in question when she did not follow strict protocol and the relaxed domestic life sure fits our Emma.

Another bit that is similar to and could be a the prototype for the warmth emanating from Emma. "Queen Charlotte endeared herself to her ladies and her children's attendants by treating them with friendly warmth, as in this note she wrote to her daughters' assistant governess:

    My dear Miss Hamilton, What can I have to say? Not much indeed! But to wish you a good morning, in the pretty blue and white room where I had the pleasure to sit and read with you The Hermit, a poem which is such a favourite with me that I have read it twice this summer. Oh! What a blessing to keep good company! Very likely I should not have been acquainted with either poet or poem was it not for you."

Queen Charlotte was a good friend to Marie Antoinette carrying on a vibrant correspondence - so much so that Charlotte had an apartment prepared and ready for the royal family of France to occupy. Also during her reign the Swedish King was shot and killed. With all this trauma I can see how if Knightly was given the characteristics of the nation in the upper classes he would be controlling and not a very happy go lucky type to the point of being critical of anyone who did not display a seriousness of character.

Jane Austen probably wrote him as many men of the day however, today we know that control is a power move that is not supportive of individual creativity or the development of a loving adult relationship however, as a caricature of a nation he is well written.

[bellamarie]

Barb,

"I am seeing there exchange now as a duel of power - as long as Emma is under her father's roof she has legally more power than most everyone except Mr. Knightly who is the male version of wealth and British morals"

There is no doubt their is a duel of power, Emma is going to hang on to her place, she so rightly holds in her family, and hold on to her personal beliefs, regardless if Mr. Knightley approves or not.   Good for her!!!

(Mr. Knightley)he does not seem happy or miserable and shows little passion except to make sure Emma acts as becoming a women in British society that, from recently learned information was a new controlled and conforming culture of place and manners.

I still do not feel he has the right to treat her as he does, so no saving grace, or acceptance of his behavior from me!  Only if, and until he realizes, he has no right, and has been too extreme with Emma, and apologizes, will he have my saving grace and acceptance.  

And, I suspect Emma will feel the same.  

I watch Downton Abbey as well, and Emma reminds me of Mary.  Mary is very independent, is involved in making financial decisions pertaining to the estate, has meddled in peoples lives causing some pain, look how she just manipulated Mr. Gillingham into leaving her alone and no longer persuaing her, after she slept with him.  OH MY!  Talk about a liberated woman, before her times.  Imagine what Mr. Knightley would think of Mary.  

Jane Austen probably wrote him as many men of the day however, today we know that control is a power move that is not supportive of individual creativity or the development of a loving adult relationship however, as a caricature of a nation he is well written.

As I have said, he is the man of the times.  We may know that the control is a power move that is not supportive of individual creativity or the development of a loving adult relationship, but.....the writers continue to write these same stories and the screenwriters continue to make these type of movies, and I don't see it ever changing.  It is what sells.  Fifty Shades of Grey was an all time week-end money maker, and that is sad, but the reality.

[JoanK]

Is everyone caught up? I'd like to move on Thursday 3/19 to

Part II Chapters 7-14 (65 pages)

Does anyone feel rushed by this?

Anyone want to tackle the questions meanwhile?

[bellamarie]

I am all caught up, and ready to move on to the new chapters, on Thursday.

I tackled most of the questions, but I will respond to the one I never got to.

What does the news about Mr. Elton tell us about his character?

I think Mr. Elton was determined to find a woman, and marry her to advance himself in finances, and social status.  It did not take him long to get over his love of Emma, and get engaged with someone else.  Which makes it obvious, he was not in love with Emma at all.  Flawed character, in my estimation.

[PatH]

Definitely a flawed character, and definitely no broken heart.  He was always looking to marry for money.  Evidently he was more open about this when talking to men.  In chapter 8, when Knightly is warning Emma not to try to link up Elton and Harriet, he says of Elton:
"He knows that he is a very handsome young man, and a great favourite wherever he goes; and from his general way of talking in unreserved moments, when there are only men present, I am convinced that he does not mean to throw himself away."

By the way, have you noticed that Austen doesn't have scenes in which there are no women present?  This is deliberate; she didn't know how men talked among themselves, and didn't want to get it wrong.  Her little microscopic field of vision must be exact.

[bellamarie]

PatH., Good observation.  Austen would only have to assume how other men interact with other men, with no women present.

Before we move on to the next chapters, it would be amiss of us to not discuss the conversation of Emma and Mr. Frank Churchill.  It seems once she is able to get him alone on their walk, he opens up to her about how he does not find Jane Fairfax pretty, nor does he find her reserved behavior attractive, if anything he agrees with Emma, about it seeming to be suspicion of things to hide.

Emma also reveals, that even though she and Jane knew each other as children and adults, she was not so close to Jane as a friend because of her reservedness. 

pg. 456 -457  "Well," said Emma, "there is no disputing about taste.  At least you admire her, except her complexion."  He shook his head and laughed.  "I cannot separate Miss Fairfax and her complexion."

I like how Frank  is cautious, and respects Miss Fairfax, as a gentleman would be expected to do, at first, when Emma asked,

 "I merely asked, whether you had known much of Miss Fairfax and her party at Weymouth."  "And now that I understand your question I must pronounce it to be a very unfair one.  It is always the lady's right to decide on the degree of acquaintance.  Miss Fairfax must already have given her account.  I shall not commit myself by claiming more than she may choose to allow."

Once she tells Frank, that Jane has not really said anything, he may speak, Mrs. Weston says to Emma,

"You get upon delicate subjects, Emma,"  said Mrs. Weston, smiling; "remember that I am here.  Mr. Frank Churchill hardly knows what to say when you speak of Miss Fairfax's situation in life, I will move a little further off."

What did you all make of this?  I took it that Mrs. Weston was moving further away, so Emma could probe further about Miss Fairfax, with her out of hearing distance.  She smiles, as if she is giving Emma her approval, to continue with this questioning.  Then, Frank goes on to say, how Mr. Dixon should not have asked Jane to play her music, with him being engaged to Miss Campbell.

pg. 457  "I have been used to hear hers admired; and I remember proof of her being thought to play well: a man, a very musical man, and in love with another woman__engaged to her__on the point of marriage__would yet never ask that other woman to sit down to the instrument, if the lady in question could sit down instead__never seemed to like to hear one if he could hear the other.  That I thought, in a man of known musical talent, was some proof."

"Proof indeed!" said Emma highly amused.  "Mr. Dixon is very musical, is he?"

"Yes, Mr. Dixon and Miss Campbell were the persons; and I thought it very strong proof."

"Certainly, very strong it was; to own the truth, a great deal stronger than, if I had been Miss Campbell, would have been at all agreeable to me.  I could not excuse a man's having more music than love__more ear than eye__a more acute sensibility to fine sounds that to my feelings.  How did Miss Campbell appear to like it?"

"It was her very particular friend, you know."

"Poor comfort!" said Emma, laughing.  "One would rather have a stranger preferred that one's very particular friend; with a stranger it might not recur again, but the misery of have a very particular friend always at hand, to do everything better than one does one's self.  Poor Mrs. Dixon!  Well, I am glad she is gone to settle in Ireland."

"You are right.  It was not very flattering to Miss Campbell; but she really did not seem to feel it."

"So much the better, or so much the worse; I do not know which.  But be it sweetness, or be it stupidity in her__quickness of friendship, or dullness of feeling__there was one person, I think, who must have felt it__Miss Fairfax herself.  She must have felt the improper and dangerous distinction."

Emma is really calling out Miss Fairfax here, then goes on to tell Mr. Frank Churchill, how they were not close as friends, because of Jane being reserved.  His remark surprised me:

"It is a most repulsive quality indeed,"  said he."   "Oftentimes very convenient, no doubt, but never pleasing.  There is safety in reserve, but no attraction.  One cannot love a reserved person."

Emma and Frank agree:

"such extreme and perpetual cautiousness of word and manner, such a dread of giving a distinct idea about anybody, is apt to suggest suspicions of their being something to conceal."

Well, here we have Frank Churchill, and Emma, forming the same opinion of Miss Fairfax's actions and reservedness.  I suspected there was more to Jane, than meets the eye. 

[JoanK]

" I suspected there was more to Jane, than meets the eye." Hmmm.

Do you agree with Emma that there is something funny between her and Mr. Dixon?

We haven't answered the question of why Both Mr. Knightly and Emma formed such strong opinions of frank Churchill BEFORE they met him.

[PatH]

Bellamarie's quote gives us more insight into why Emma doesn't like Jane Fairfax:

but the misery of have a very particular friend always at hand, to do everything better than one does one's self.

She doesn't like anyone to outshine her.

[bellamarie]

Going by what Mr. Frank Churchill has revealed, Jane did not act considerate of Miss Campbell's feelings, and Mr. Dixon, was also insensitive, to the woman he was engaged to.  They decided to move to Ireland, and Jane is sent to live in Highbury, with the aunts and grandmother.  That seems drastic to me. There has to be more to learn, about the reserved Jane.

Mr. Knightley seems to have formed his negative opinions of Mr. Churchill, due to the fact it has taken him so long, to come to visit his father.  He seems to think it was something he was choosing to stay behind for, rather than his adopted parents needing him.  He pointed this out to Emma earlier, before Mr. Churchill came.  He felt Mr. Churchill, not coming sooner, after his father Mr. Weston married Mrs. Weston, was a flaw in his character, a weakness, or something that he was not willing to reveal keeping him back.

Once again, Mr. Knightley is a person's judge, and moral compass.  What is it about him, that he can not seem to stop himself, from expressing his disapproval of people?  Does he have that good of instincts, where people are concerned, or does he know things and forms his judgements by the things he learns of them?  

Emma had no prior knowledge of Mr. Frank Churchill, and she seemed to be basing her favorable opinions, due to the fact he is Mr. Weston's son. She is assuming, Mrs. Weston will be treated well by Mr. Churchill.  Emma likes Mr. Weston, she knows he makes Mrs. Weston happy, so she is presuming, the son will be much like the father.  

PatH.,  Yes, I think Emma admits her jealousy of Jane, but she also says why.

pg.  456  " I have known her from a child, undoubtedly; we have been children and women together; and it is natural to suppose that we should be intimate__that we should have taken to each other whenever she visited her friends.  But we never did.  I hardly know how it has happened; a little, perhaps, from that wickedness on my side which was prone to take disgust towards a girl so idolised and so cried up as she always was, by her aunt and grandmother, and all their set.  And, then, her reserve!  I never could attach myself to anyone so completely reserved."

Do you suppose the fact it is an aunt and grandmother, female relatives, doting on and on about Jane, that made Emma disgusted with Jane?  Emma does not have a mother to sing her praises.  Yes, her father does it plenty, and Mrs. Weston dotes on her, but it makes me wonder if Emma wanted something more of a female, mother figure, as Jane has.  And she does point out she does not like reservedness.  I had to giggle, when Emma admits, "that wickedness on my side"  Emma is not afraid to take accountability for her actions, good or bad.  She sees her own faults, flaws and weaknesses. 

I think I would tire hearing the constant praises of perfection that is being said, and read after a while as well.      

[BarbStAubrey]

I did not take that this comment by Emma "from that wickedness on my side which was prone to take disgust towards a girl so idolized and so cried up as she always was, by her aunt and grandmother, and all their set." was meant as Emma feeling envious but rather acknowledging the Aunt and Grandmother were pulling on Jane to help them more than she is even able - I am remembering how the Aunt let Jane know that her hat or purse or some part of her clothing she wore during a visit when she was still at the Campbell's, do not remember the exact article of clothing but to the Aunt it was more valuable than their ability to feed themselves.

"Cried up" to me means they were what we would call yammering or 'oh you wonderful child look at pitiful me' rather than, it being a positive acclaim and admiration for Jane. Sort of admiration with strings attached that would make our skins crawl and Jane had no choice but to put up with it.  

My take is that part of the reason Emma does not admire Jane as a close friend is that Emma is not able to get the "juice" on Jane since she is so reserved and Emma would have preferred Jane to be a more lighthearted girl free with gossip when she was living with the Campbell's

I do not think Emma has the ability to get into the skins of other people and so her compassion gene is not developed.

I am also seeing Mr. Knightley with an ego problem - he is the richest and therefore, most powerful in the area and it appears he wants his deference paid as if he is the king and he knows it and wants everyone to acknowledge it.  He chaffs from visits that he thinks should be more timely to the bit where he was trumped by Miss Bates and Miss Fairfax as they quickly shared, without any of Mr. Knightley's build up that Mr. Elton was getting married and then had to get his deference with a smile exchange with Emma letting her know that was 'his' news so much so a skit arises as to how he knew and he can trump them as he shares his inside contact. Why?!? Anyone with confidence would simply let the whole thing pass unless later Emma questioned him, asking what was his news, and then he could have shared it was his news.

Reading all this and in my head are two children's rhymes

One a penny two a penny hot cross buns as girls and men are being discussed like choosing produce or baked goods in the market - and the other rhyme is Mary, Mary, quite contrary,
How does your garden grow? With silver bells, and cockle shells, And pretty maids all in a row. as all the pretty maids are on show for the highest bidder.

[bellamarie]

I felt when the Aunts came in and told the news of Mr. Elton getting engaged, before Mr. Knightley could get it out, was hilarious!!!  Mr. Knightley was all puffed up, and ready to lay it on Emma, knowing she had attempted the matchmaking between Mr. Elton and Harriet, and failed miserably at it.  Just one more attempt for him to act all high and mighty, and know it all. They took the fun out of his calculated plot. That brought me such laughter.         

[JoanK]

BARB:Mr. Knightly "wants his deference paid as if he is the king and he knows it and wants everyone to acknowledge it."

BELLAMARIE:" Just one more attempt for him to act all high and mighty, and know it all."

He certainly isn't winning any popularity contests. what do the rest of you think?

we shall see in the next section that Emma is also jealous of her social position. Like Mary, in Downton Abbey, she has position and knows it.

what do the rest of you think?

[JoanK]

Oooops. I posted that we'd read through Part II, chapter 14 when I meant Chapter 13. That's 65 pages. Seems to bw enough for one gulp.

[PatH]

Gulp.

[bellamarie]

WOW!  These next chapters are certainly revealing of many characters.  Where do we begin?

So much fuss over Frank Churchill going to London, to get a haircut. 

pg. 458 "There was certainly no harm in his traveling sixteen miles twice over on such an errand; but there was an air of foppery and nonsense in it which she could not approve.  It did not accord with the rationality of plan, the moderation in expense, or even unselfish warmth of heart, which she had believed herself to discern in him yesterday.  Vanity, extravagance, love of change, restlessness of temper, which must be doing something, good or bad; heedlessness as to the pleasure of his father and Mrs. Weston, indifferent as to how his conduct might appear in general__he became liable to all these charges." 

His father only called him a coxcomb...(cox·combˈkäksˌkōm/Submit noun 1. a vain and conceited man; a dandy.)

Mrs. Weston did not like it was clear enough by her passing it over as quickly as possible, and making no comment than that "all young people would have their little whims."

Mr. Knightley says to himself..."Hum! just the trifling, silly fellow I took him for."

p.461-462  (Frank Churchill)  He came back, had had his hair cut, and laughed at himself with a very good grace, but without seeming really at all ashamed of what he had done.

(Emma), "I do not know whether it ought to be so, but certainly silly things do cease to be silly if they are done by sensible people in an impudent way.  Wickedness is always wickedness, but folly is not always folly.  It depends upon the character of those who handle it.  Mr. Knightley, he is not a trifling, silly young man.  If he were, he would have done it differently.  He would either have gloried in the achievement, or been ashamed of it.  There would have been either the ostentation of a coxcomb, or the evasions of a mind too weak to defend its own vanities.  No, I am perfectly sure that he is not a trifling or silly."

I was laughing so much in all of this commotion, about a haircut in London.  Emma, sure does not want to see Frank as a coxcomb, trifling or silly young man.  Is it because it is Mr. Knightley who is criticizing Frank, or is it because she does not want to see Frank as such, or a bit of each.

[serenesheila]

I gave up on 'Emma', early on.  I just do not care for Jane Auston's writing.

Has the next book been selected?  Does anyone know what it I=will be?

[BarbStAubrey]

Glad you popped in to update us Sally - I loved the way chapter 7 ended - how lovely as they each father and daughter showed real caring for each other and for the feelings of others - just lovely.

The whole business about the haircut - hmm and that is all he accomplished in London?!? - Hmm knowing at the time in history there were at least 2 ladies of the night for every male in all of Britain - ah so he gives grit to the locals twitter about what they observe - it is not like Frank Churchill is even a local - their gossip sure has no concept of live and let live does it...ah so...!

[PatH]

Hmm knowing at the time in history there were at least 2 ladies of the night for every male in all of Britain

There's something wrong with that figure; it must be some much smaller subset of males.  Given that there were many, many respectably married women, and that the population would have started out about 50/50 men and women, there would have to have been a huge number of imported women, roughly equal to a third of the population, and that certainly wasn't the case.

If that was one of Churchill's motives for going to London, Austen will probably be too delicate to tell us.

[JoanK]

Hmmm. Some sort of ulterior motive? Of course, if it were women, Austen wouldn't even hint at it.

Well, we can be sure he looks nice, anyway.

SHEILA: the next book hasn't been selected. When it is, you'll see it in the ads up top. Sorry you didn't enjoy Austen.

[bellamarie]

There is something about Frank that enjoys gossiping with Emma a little too much.  He seems more of a feminine personality versus manly. I can't even begin to imagine Frank going for a "lady of the night."

pg.  466 "Perhaps you may now begin to regret that you spent on whole day, out of so few, in having your hair cut."

"No."  said he smiling, "that is no subject of regret at all,  I have no pleasure in seeing my friends, unless I can believe myself fit to be seen."

she saw Frank Churchill looking intently across the room at Miss Fairfax, who was sitting exactly opposite.  "What is the matter?" said she.

He started.  Thank you for rousing me," he replied. "I believe I have been very rude; but really Miss Fairfax has done her hair in so odd a way__so very odd  a way__that I cannot keep my from her.  I never saw anything so outre'!  I must go and ask her whether it is an Irish fashion.  Shall I?  Yes, I will__I declare I will; and you shall see how she take it__whether she colours."  

Frank then goes and stands,   exactly in front of Miss Fairfax, she could absolutely distinguish nothing.

What is it about Frank, that has me so suspicious of him, especially where Jane Fairfax is concerned?  It is almost like he knows Emma does not care for her, so he keeps talking in a bit of a negative way about Jane, to Emma, yet I feel there is more there than meets the eye.  Why mention her hair could be "Irish?"  He sure seems all about haircuts and hair styles! 

He knows more than he is telling, yet he keeps Emma, guessing and speculating things about Jane.  He is like Hansel and Gretel, he drops the breadcrumbs for Emma, so she will pick them up and continue her curiosity of Jane.  Is he doing this on purpose, or can he just not stop himself?  It's as if he wants Emma to let her defenses down, and to come to conclusions he is leading her to.  

Maybe this is what Mr. Knightley meant when he said, "Hum! just the trifling, silly fellow I took him for."

I like Frank, but there is something that is not setting right with me about him.

 


 

[BarbStAubrey]

PatH it was part of the story of The French Lieutenants Woman that is based on history - I'm not making this up. No telling how Frank Churchill used his time and yes, a by the way arrangement would not be included in the writings of Jane Austen however, the reality of fun on the side is amusing and probably very real. John Fowles writing, as he did in the mid twentieth century could be more historically accurate however, Jane Austen was no Daniel Defoe either who wrote of Moll Flanders.

Yes, after reading the next chapter I agree Bellamaire - I like Frank, but there is something that is not setting right with me about him.

There seems to be in Emma's mind a triad between the Piano, Frank Churchill and Mr. Knightly - with Mr. Knightly not dancing with Jane that leaves Frank Churchill as a possible suitor. Since he kept his body between Jane and Emma when they talked and then sang with her accompaniment even when Mr. Knightly quit and then, the almost teasing conversation between Frank and Emma as to the magnanimous gift of the pianoforte I am thinking there is more to Frank Churchill's attention to Jane Fairfax.

Since we are hearing of these events through Emma's eyes and the set up of her being solicitous of her father's welfare when she attended the Cole's evening dinner party sets her up as the kind, wide eyed innocent whose only amusement in life appears to be to figure out the intentions of those in her acquaintance and to take cue's from their dress, mannerism and how well they live to their station in life, the story of all these characters unfolds at the speed of her awareness.      

[Halcyon]

Does Frank Churchill's welfare depend solely on the largesse of the Churchills?  Will he inherit even though he is adopted?  Is money the reason Mrs. Churchill has such an influence on him?  Is there an age when he can declare his independence or will he always be under the thumb of Mrs. Churchill?  I, too, agree that there is something a little off putting about Frank Churchill. Does he too want Emma's money?

[bellamarie]

That is an interesting point Halcyon.  Does Frank want Emma's money, status, family estate?  He sure took a huge liking to everything on that first walk.  He says ALL the right things, seems so likeable, has all the perfect manners, and is careful to only gossip with Emma when they are out of earshot distance of others.  He seems to want to keep Emma disliking Jane for some reason, although when he stands in front of Jane so Emma can not see her if she colours, it makes me think he did not go over for the excuse he said.

The next day, Emma and Harriet are shopping and she notices Mrs. Weston and Frank Churchill ready to enter the Bates's home.  Once they see Emma, for some reason Frank tries to act like he was not really interested in the visit and says Mrs. Weston promised Mrs. Bates last night they would stop in.  Mrs. Weston does not recall her saying that.  

The whole thing about Frank planting the idea Mr. Campbell sent Jane the piano, and his favorite music, so it was sent out of love is something else suspicious.  But when Jane plays the waltz music Frank remembers they danced to in Weymouth he seems pleased, yet she coloured when he mentions it.  What is going on with him and Jane?

pg. 476  (Frank)  he went to the pianoforte, and begged Miss Fairfax, who was still sitting at it, to play some more.  "If you are very kind," said he, "it will be one of the waltzes we danced last night; let me live them over again.  You did not enjoy them as I did; you appeared tired the whole time.  I believe you were glad we danced no longer; but I would have given worlds__all the worlds one ever has to give__ for another half-hour."

She played.

"What felicity it is to hear a tune again which has made one happy!  If I mistake not, that was danced at Weymouth."

She looked up at him for a moment, coloured deeply, and played something else.

Frank then takes the music and shows it to Emma and says,  

"She is playing 'Robin Adair' at this moment his (Mr. Campbell's) favourite."

I don't recall Austen telling us Frank and Jane danced last night, and he professes he did not want it to end! 

Frank seems to be a bit jealous, thinking not only did Mr. Campbell send Jane the pianoforte, be also sent his favorite music for her to play.

I'm smelling a fox in the henhouse here.  Hmmmmm......  Is he playing Emma as a decoy?  She is vulnerable and ripe for pickins, since she is suspicious of Jane, and has not liked Jane's reservedness.  

[JoanK]

Halcyon: Frank is indeed Mrs. Churchill's heir. they may have adopted him because they had no son She is very demanding, and he must do what she wants for fear of being disinherited.

What do you think of Knightly's argument that a man of principle would have insisted on visiting his father over her objection, and would have been respected for it? Or is Emma right, that he simply couldn't have risked it?

I can't help wondering, since frank's situation is based on that of Austen's own brother, whether that argument reflects what was going on in her family.

[bellamarie]

But if you recall, Frank makes the statement he can get Mrs. Churchill to do whatever he wants.  So, something tells me Frank did NOT stay until Mrs. Churchill gave him her permission.  So what or who kept him from coming.  Is it a coincidence he came after Jane Fairfax came?

pg. 466  She saw that Enscombe could not satisfy, and Highbury, taken at its best, might reasonably please a young man who had more retirement at home than he liked.  His importance at Enscombe was very evident.  He did not boast, but it naturally betrayed itself, that he had persuaded his aunt where his uncle could do nothing, and on her laughing and noticing it, he owned that he believed (excepting one or two points) he could with time persuade her to anything.  One of the points on which his influence failed he then mentioned.  He had wanted very much to go abroad__had been very eager indeed to be allowed to travel__but she would not hear of it.  This had happened the year before, Now, he said, he was beginning to have no longer the same wish.

The unpersuadable point, which he did not mention, Emma guessed to be good behaviour to his father.

Where abroad did he want to go and why?  He keeps mentioning Ireland, a coincidence the Campbell's went to Ireland?

[PatH]

"Where abroad did he want to go, and why?"  It was common for gentlemen to finish their education by taking the "grand tour", an extended journey around the cultural and scenic attractions of Europe, and this is probably what Frank was thinking of.

[PatH]

5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?

Emma is playing with fire in her dealings with Frank Churchill.  She is trying to attract him, make him fall in love with her, but not fall in love herself, and refuse him if he offers marriage.  There are so many ways such behavior can end badly.  If she succeeds, she will hurt him.  If he's not interested, she's frustrated.  And of course, she could miscalculate, and end up falling in love in spite of herself--not a bad result if he falls in love too.

Is she falling in love?  I find it hard to say.  For a bit she thinks she might be, then decides she isn't.  It's certainly possible to fail to realize at first that you have fallen in love.

Have you noticed all the hints that the Westons are hoping to make a match between the two?  People do that a lot in Austen's books--try to make matches between relatives and acquaintances--probably reflects behavior of the times.  Sometimes it works in the books and sometimes it doesn't.

[PatH]

I've never understood why a woman would want to play such a stupid game as making someone she didn't care for fall in love with her.  It's just asking for trouble.