Emma~ Jane Austen ~ March - April Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

March/April Book Club Online

Emma
by Jane Austen

"I am going to take a heroine whom no one but myself will much like”  Jane Austen of Emma. Will you like her, the heroine who Austen claimed was most like herself, and who inspired a movie called "Clueless"? If not, there's lots more to like in this classic novel of love, misdirection, and social class.

Schedule

March 1-5  Part I:  Chapters 1-7
March 6 - 12 Part I:  Chapters 8-17
March 13  Part I:  Chapter 18, Part II Chapter 1-6
March 19  Part II: Chapter 7-13  
March 23  Part II: Chapters 14-18 Part III Chapters 1-4

QUESTIONS VOLUME II CHAPTERS 7-13

1. Does the fact that frank Churchill goes to London to get his hair cut change your opinion of him? Why or why not?

2. Why does Emma not want to go to the Coles? Do such class distinctions exist where you live? What is their basis? Why did her opinion of the Coles change when she got there?

3. Did Emma do wrong when she shared her suspicions of Jane Fairfax with Frank? What do you think of his efforts to tease Jane about them in chapter X?

4. Who do you think the piano came from? What do Jane's reactions while people are talking about it tell you?

5. Is Emma falling in love with Frank Churchill? Is it possible not to know if you're in love or not?

6. "A mind lively and at ease, can do with seeing nothing, and can see nothing that does not answer." Do you agree?

7. Harriet, tempted by everything and swayed by half a word, was always very long at a purchase." Have you ever gone shopping with a friend like that? How did it work out?

Text of Emma ~~~ Emma review ~~~ Austen related books ~~~ Jane Austen biography

Discussion Leader: JoanK

  

[BarbStAubrey]

Does anyone know if the Campbell's were Irish in England or English in Ireland - given their wealth I would say the latter however, their name suggests otherwise.

PatH I am thinking that if all a girl is measured on is her looks, mannerism and ability to entertain than the only arena she has to work in is attracting male attention - even if a girl or women at the time was well educated she had no acceptable career path - she was not engaged in politics or finance. The women who worked were weavers, milk maids, bar maids, servants in the big houses, governesses, ladies maids and all round servants in the smaller houses - its all domestic help - even weaving was done in homes. There was not even nurses yet in 1815 leaving girls with their only activity - attract a man - one is good but more is better just as men could be competitive excepting they had all sorts of avenues to measure their skills against another.   

[bellamarie]

I am thoroughly confused with all the characters in these chapters.

Emma loves spending time with Frank and he likewise.  I guess I never saw it romantically, but I guess back in those times, if a girl and guy spent that much time with each other, danced at balls together and he visited as often as Frank Church does...........it was seen as a courtship.  Mrs. Bates is just singing the praises of them being a perfect match.

Mr. Knightley and Jane seem to be getting paired together, Mrs. Weston has pretty much said it to Emma.  Which of course Emma thinks is preposterous!  

Frank Church seems to have something in secrecy with Jane, but I can't figure out what it is.

Now, that Frank has been called to come back home due to a (fake) ailing aunt, Emma is missing his company, and trying to discern her true feelings for him.  She has never been in love, so now she is trying to decide if what she feels is being "in love," or is it not.  She does seem a bit surprised at the feelings she is having since he left.

Mr. Knightley has gone out of his way to give the Bates his last apples, to make sure Jane has them.  Jane in turn is upset with her aunt for even mentioning they were low on apples, and for accepting Mr. Knightley's last apples.

Apples, dances, pianoforte, music, visits, etc., all seem to indicate people having feelings for each other, yet no one has so much expressed these feelings.  When Frank was about to express something to Emma, they were interrupted by Mr. Weston coming into the room.  She assumes, Frank was going to profess his love for her.  Why did I get the impression he was NOT going to profess his "love," for her?  

When Frank writes to Mrs. Weston, he barely mentions Emma's name, but mentions Harriet.  I truly am confused.

PatH.,

I've never understood why a woman would want to play such a stupid game as making someone she didn't care for fall in love with her.  It's just asking for trouble.

I can't come to the conclusion Emma is indeed playing such a game.  I feel she is as confused, as I am.  She sure did react strongly at the very mention of Mr. Knightley, possibly being paired with Jane.  Mrs. Weston seemed to enjoy bringing this up to Emma.  I ask myself, why?  Emma says she is not at all in favor of the match, due to little Henry's inheritance.  Is that the only reason why?

Where have all our members gone?  Have you all lost interest, or have you read ahead and fear commenting will give away spoilers?  I could use some insight, to help me put these puzzles pieces together.  Austen sure has my head in a spin. 

[PatH]

Good point, Barb.  Maybe Emma is honing her skills on Frank--a learner fiance.  

The Campbells are not Irish.  Their daughter has recently married Mr. Dixon, an Irish landowner, and they have gone to Ireland to visit the couple.  (It's not clear whether Mr. Dixon is actually Irish or Anglo-Irish.)

[Halcyon]

PatH. I love it...a learner fiancée. Like a starter house.

Bellamarie...you ask where everyone has gone?  I, for one, am just as confused as you are. I would like to know what Frank was going to tell Emma. I agree that it seemed unlikely he was going to express his love. I wonder if the Weston's know anymore than they are letting on. Somehow I don't think so but with this bunch who would know. I hope Emma is just infatuated and not truly in love. At this point I cant see her with any of the characters we've met so far.

[bellamarie]

Halcyon,  I sure am glad to know I am not alone in my confusion.

I know Jane Austen likes last minute epiphanies, where couples finally come together in the end, but the book is pretty far in, and yet not one person has openly expressed their true feelings. 

Emma is confused, which makes sense to a point, since she always thought she would never marry, except for "love," which she has never experienced.  She is trying to understand her feelings she has for Frank after he has left, yet seems to conclude it is not "love," especially after she reads Frank's letters to Mrs. Weston and he does not barely even mention her. 

If Frank were in love with Emma, wouldn't he be writing to Emma? 

I still feel Emma and Mr. Knightley will end up together, especially since Austen made the mention that age is not such a factor, when Mrs. Weston was mentioning Mr. Knightley possibly having feelings for Jane.  Jane and Emma have been childhood friends, so they are around the same age.

Ollie, Ollie, Oxen Free....come out, come out wherever you are!!!  We need some help!

[PatH]

I'm scared to help much, since I know the answers.  I've read the book several times, the first one so long ago that I don't remember how much I figured out on my own before Austen told me--nothing near all of it, though.  There are lots of clues, but many are subtle.  I'm still learning new things this time through, some of them from you.

I can help with the background, though.  Bellamarie brings up some important points.

I guess I never saw it romantically, but I guess back in those times, if a girl and guy spent that much time with each other, danced at balls together and he visited as often as Frank Church does...........it was seen as a courtship.

The rules of social interaction between unmarried men and women were rather rigid.  You had to be very careful, or it would look like you were expressing a romantic interest in someone.  Bella may remember that in Persuasion, one of the characters gets stuck with others thinking he is courting a woman, and he feels he would have to marry her if she wanted.  Emma and Frank seem to look like they are on the footing of looking tentative, maybe starting to be interested.

If Frank were in love with Emma, wouldn't he be writing to Emma?

No, a single man couldn't write to an unrelated single young woman unless they were already engaged, or unless the letter contained a proposal of marriage.
 

[Jonathan]

My, oh my. Can Jane Austen tell a story! I'm captivated. No, you're not alone, Bellamarie, in feeling confused. But then, as you say, Emma, too, is confused. And it only gets worse for her as it begins to make sense for the reader. I got impatient. I've read ahead. As far as I can see there are no spoilers. Only more insights into the art of matchmaking and falling in love.

This book has brought back the strangest memory from my younger days. Some of the girls and younger women were more knowledgeable than others in all things romantic and relational. Now it seems to me I could pick out the ones who had read their Jane Austens.

I'm only sorry I waited so long to read them. Marvellous stuff.

[JoanK]

Sorry I couldn't get on yesterday. Sorry also if you expect me to make things clear -- they just AREN'T clear at this stage. Nobody quite knows where they are or what they feel (well, maybe one does, but they aren't telling!). Austen's thrown her characters into a pot, and is stirring them around to make stew!

Are we ready to move on? Next week is crazy for me -- I'll be out Monday, and have out of town guests Wednesday through Saturday, but you don't really need me, and I'll be in as much as I can.

Let's start talking about the next bit Monday, when we meet the woman who Elton preferred over Harriet.. I'll post the chapters soon.

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE: "all seem to indicate people having feelings for each other, yet no one has so much expressed these feelings."

These are upper class Englishmen and women, and you expect them to  express their feelings? What are you thinking? Gentlemen/women don't DO THAT!

Seriously, it wouldn't be proper, for either men or women, to express their feelings short of a proposal. Even after they were engaged, they wouldn't do so in public. Even Elton's poem to Emma he expected her to keep private, and not show anyone.

JONATHAN: "Now it seems to me I could pick out the [WOMEN] ones who had read their Jane Austens."

That's hilarious!

[bellamarie]

Thank you all so much for coming in and posting.  Your posts have at least confirmed to me, I am not alone in my confusion.  JoanK., I would never expect you to make things clear, I just needed some feedback, to know I'm not so far off base.  

Austen's thrown her characters into a pot, and is stirring them around to make stew!

What a perfect metaphor, for these chapters!

Jonathan, I suspected you had read ahead, I was very tempted to, but refrained myself.  I am so glad to hear you are back to seeing how marvellous Austen is.  I like the analogy you used with knowing the girls who read Austen.  My first time ever reading Jane Austen was when I was in my late fifties, believe it or not.  Being an amateur writer myself, and hopeless romantic, I fell in love with her style immediately.  I can actually see the same matchmaking back when I was in high school 1967-70, as happening here  in the 1800s.  Some things never change.  Most of my matchmaking was successful, although I must say, the one and only time I allowed myself to be fixed up on a blind date, I did in fact fall for the guy, and experienced major hurt, and caused me to be cynical and untrusting for a very long time, before I met my wonderful hubby.

PatH.,  Thank you for the clarification, as to why it would be inappropriate for Frank to write to Emma.  But he still hardly mentions her in the letters to Mrs. Weston, which leads me to believe he is not in love with Emma.

JoanK.,  I guess what I should have said, is Austen has not given any clarification as to the true feelings these characters have for each other.  Thank you for reminding me, they could not express them openly, or to each other back then.

Yes, I am ready to move on, actually I can barely stand waiting to be able to read to see where this is all headed.  I seriously could not read the words fast enough in these last chapters.  I will wait for you to let us now which chapters to read.  

[JoanK]

You're certainly safe in finishing volume II.

[JoanK]

Let's finish Volume II and red Volume III Chapters 1- 4 (66 pages.)

Will things get clearer, or only more muddled? Tune in.

[JoanK]

Am I going too  slowly? Please tell me. And feel free to comment before you finish reading on what you've read.

[bellamarie]

Thanks, JoanK.  I should have a lazy Sunday, once I return all my grandkids, to their rightful parents after church.  I can't wait to tackle the new chapters.  Sleepovers are wonderful, but oh the next morning kicks me in my rear!!!  

[pedln]

 I'm running a bit behind (just finished Chpt. 12), and am as confused as everyone else with all the characters.  But I definitely agree with those of you who think the Westons are hoping for a match between Frank and Emma.

overhearing Mr. Weston whisper to his wife, "He has asked her, my dear. That's right. I knew he would!"

Austen, Jane (2012-05-16). Emma (p. 260).  . Kindle Edition.

I'm not sure that I like Frank.  His comments to Jane Fairfax, regarding the pianoforte and the Campbell family relations almost seemed to have a cruel streak, as if he were deliberately trying to embarrass her of make her feel uncomfortable.

"But she is so amusing, so extremely amusing! I am very fond of hearing Miss Bates talk. And I need not bring the whole family, you know."

And his comments about Miss Bates, as well, asessing her value on the "dance committee."  Is he really sincere or is there a touch of sarcasm there?

Guess I'm siding with Mr. Knightley.

[bellamarie]

Pedln,  I too have my doubts where Frank is concerned.  He has a reason for always gossiping with Emma, about Jane, in a negative way.  He seems a bit jealous of the possibility of Mr. Campbell's affection for Jane.

Before I move on to the next chapters I want to point out the sweet words Emma expressed, about her friendship with Harriet.

Pg.  488. "There is no charm to tenderness of heart," said she afterwards to herself.  "There is nothing to be compared to it. Warmth and tenderness of heart, with an affectionate, open manner, will beat all the clearness of head in the world, for attraction: I am sure it will.  It is tenderness of heart which makes my dear father so generally beloved--which gives Isabella all her popularity.  I have it not; but I know how to prize and respect it.  Harriet is my superior in all the charm and all the felicity it gives.  Dear Harriet!  I would not change you for the clearest-headed, longest-sighted, best judging female breathing.  Oh, the coldness of a Jane Fairfax!  Harriet is worth a hundred such: and for a wife--a sensible man's wife--it is invaluable.  I mention no names; but happy the man who changes Emma for Harriet!"

Emma sees Frank's mention of Harriet in his letter to mean he wants Harriet for his wife, and is happy for Harriet. 

[JoanK]

Is anyone confused as to who the characters are? The COLES are neighbors, whose only function  in the book is to give the dinner we read about, so don't worry too  much about them. MRS. BATES and the talkative MISS BATES are grandmother and aunt to Jane Fairfax. The CAMPBELLS took Jane in to educate her, and Miss Campbell married MR. DIXON, and went to ireland. Emma's sister ISABELLA, and her husband, JOHN KNIGHTLY, give us comic relief. MRS. WESTON is Emma's old governess, who has married Frank's father, Mr. WESTON. MRS. CHURCHILL is the rich old lady, (Frank's mother's sister) who adopted him, changed his name to Frank Churchill, and expects him to dance attendance on her. Mr. Weston dislikes her for that and because she had been mean to Frank's mother.

The main characters are the would-be lovers. MR. MARTIN has been cast aside by HARRIET. Mr. ELTON has cast himself aside and gone off to marry someone else (we'll meet HER in this next section). This leaves Harriet with no one to love, and Emma with no matches to make. Don't think THAT will last very long.

Meanwhile, is EMMA in love with FRANK? is Frank in love with Emma? Is KNIGHTLY in love with JANE? Is Jane in love with Mr. Dixon? I warn you: Austen has a few more stirs of the pot before we find out. Some questions get answered in this new section, but more new question arise. Fun, fun, fun.

[bellamarie]

Fun indeed!
 I finally have one clarity, of who does not emphatically want to marry one certain lady, because as he states,

" She has not the open temper which a man would wish for in a wife."

A puzzle piece falling into place, as far as my suspicions are concerned!

Emma is wasting no time, confronting people in these next chapters. 

[Halcyon]

I'm beginning to think Bellamarie was right all the time.  I'm liking Mr. Knightley more and more and Frank less and less.  And the vicar's wife....very mean spirited.  I thought I would find Jane Austen boring but, I must confess, I'm reading ahead. 

[Jonathan]

'Next week is crazy for me.' As Mr Woodhouse would say: 'Poor JoanK.' And we're all sorry, too. Reading about crazy is fun, but actually living it...good luck. Thanks for the perspective in your last post.

The same for the 'open temper' in a wife. I don't mind a little fight, in fact I enjoy it, but spare me the open temper. I run for cover. Haha.

Bellamarie, you ended the last section with the fine quote about the charm of the tender heart. Emma sees something missing in her own heart. What's the good of 'clearness of head' without 'tenderness of heart'? Here's a glimpse at the 'work in progress', as you pointed out a while ago.

We're  in church as the next chapter begins. observing Mr Elton's new wife. Our devotions are interrupted while we look her over. How much can one tell about someone in church, the author wonders. Only the degree of prettiness. I beg to differ. Many love affairs have their beginning at devine services. For Emma a formal call at the vicarage will be more to the purpose in getting to know the new woman in their midst. Harriet goes along. I can't resist quoting the scene, and Emma's preoccupation:

'...and when she considered how peculiarly unlucky poor Mr Elton was in being in the same room at once with the woman he had just married, the woman he had wanted to marry, and the woman whom he had been expected to marry, she must allow him to have the right to look as little wise, and to be as much affectedly, and as little really easy as could be.'

It's a little disappointing that we don't get to know the text Mr Elton chose for his sermon earlier in church. Perhaps JA couldn't trust herself with choosing the right one. It was all too crazy.

[Jonathan]

Reading ahead. It gets really crazy. SPOILER ALERT!!! Every thing turns out alright for poor Mr Woodhouse. He is the big winner.

[bellamarie]

Thank you, Jonathan, for posting that quote.  I had underlined it in my book, and placed a huge smiley face next to it.  When I read it I couldn't help but laugh out loud, and think, coulda, woulda, shoulda.         

Halycon, Yes, I agree, the vicar's wife is mean spirited indeed!  Mrs. Elton first attempts to befriend Emma, and when Emma does not reciprocate her invites to play music, the claws come out, and she does a turn about, and decides to be Jane's new best friend.  Mr. E., deserves a wife like her.  Karma came back around and bit him in the behind!  Mrs. E., tends to remind me of the wicked witch in The Wizard of Oz.  I'm not liking her at all.  Emma may need to pour some water on her, to see if she melts away!      

Thank you JoanK., for trying to help us all with the many characters.  I was doing pretty good with keeping everyone straight, until the Coles were mentioned, and then I had to pause, and put them in the cast again.  Phew...there sure are plenty to keep up with.

Me thinks, Mrs. Weston has been toying with Emma, where Mr. Knightley being smitten with Jane was concerned.  Mrs. Weston knows how quickly Emma reacts when she even so much as mentions, the possibility of Mr. Knightley caring for Jane. 

It reminds me of a quote from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespear, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

[PatH]

Jonathan and Bellamarie, I had to laugh out loud at that quote too.  Formal visits had specific time limits, and the first visit to a new bride was supposed to be 15 minutes.  I'm betting Mr. Elton was glad he didn't have to suffer for long.

Mrs. Elton is really a pain.  You get very tired of hearing all about Selina, and Maple Grove, and the barouche-landau, and the things that she and Selina have "a horror of".  It's really bragging to keep bringing up the barouche-landau, as it was a particularly expensive and luxurious carriage.

[JoanK]

JONATHAN: "It's a little disappointing that we don't get to know the text Mr Elton chose for his sermon earlier in church."

I really laughed at that one. can anyone think of a really good text for him?

[JoanK]

Here is the barouche -landau, the Mercedes Benz of it's day:

https://www.google.com/search?q=barouche-landau&biw=853&bih=570&tbm=isch&imgil=99a9Ix6NIWR0HM%253A%253BNgpnIMb17u14MM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.regrom.com%25252F2014%25252F04%25252F10%25252Fregency-fashion-carriages-coaches-and-the-barouche%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=99a9Ix6NIWR0HM%253A%252CNgpnIMb17u14MM%252C_&usg=__U2mRheoAoLVojLY0XJABHRwUWVg%3D&ved=0CCcQyjc&ei=CYsQVeOHE4GeyATP1YDwDA#imgrc=99a9Ix6NIWR0HM%253A%3BNgpnIMb17u14MM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fborides.pbworks.com%252Ff%252Fbarouche.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.regrom.com%252F2014%252F04%252F10%252Fregency-fashion-carriages-coaches-and-the-barouche%252F%3B545%3B286

[JoanK]

There is method to Mrs. Elton mentioning "Maplethorpe" so often too. The Coxes and Mrs. Elton are social climbers. They want to be accepted by the "upper class." The British upper class was the landed gentry, who lived on landed estates an money from their tenant farmers. They felt superior to anyone who was "in trade." As the Coxes were. My annotated Emma explains the steps that anyone "in trade had to take to enter  the upper class. They had to get enough money to buy a landed estate, and sever their ties with trade: become landed gentry themselves.

The Coxes aren't quite there. they have a big house, but since it doesn't have a name, we know it's not an estate yet. Mrs. Elton wants everyone to know that her brother-in-law, Mr. Suckling, had taken that step and has an estate with a name, Maplethorpe (and fancy furnishings).

She's too stupid to realize that there's one more step she needs to take: to learn the manners appropriate to the class she wants to enter. Those of you who watch Downton Abbey on TV may remember that Mary, when marrying Mathew was first broached said "You want me to marry someone who doesn't know how to use a fork properly?" Downton Abbey takes place 100 years after Emma, but a lot hasn't changed.

Mrs. E's manners are the opposite of what they should be: good manners include never bragging about possessions or status, and showing proper respect to everyone. The Coxes have learned that, and so are more accepted. But Mrs. E is a textbook on what not to do.

[bellamarie]

Between Miss Bates rattling on, to no end about anything and everything, and Mrs. Elton rattling on about Maple Grove and all her vanity, I do declare, I need an aspirin.

JoanK., you are so right about, "Mrs. E. is a textbook on what not to do."  Thank you for the pic link.  Fancy Shmancy carriage!  She sure mentioned it enough times.

Hmmm....a text for Mr. E.'s sermon....how about:

The craving for wealth and possessions can lead us into all kinds of temptation.

Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle. (NIV, Proverbs 23:4-5)

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? (NIV, Matthew 16:26)

Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. (TNIV, 1 Timothy 6:9-11, emphasis added)

Pierced themselves with many griefs....well being married to Mrs. E., is one grief too many.  

[Jonathan]

I'm impressed by how hard Mrs. Elton tries to win the hearts and minds of the better folk in Highbury. Not always in an elegant fashion, but who could totally win the affection of Emma on the first try. Augusta wants to fit in. What is it about Emma that makes her so critical. Of course we were told on page one that, 'The real evils indeed of Emma's situation were the power of having rather too much her own way, and the dispositon to think a little too well of herself.'

Even the author is intimidated. Whose voice are we hearing when we get the awful picture of Mrs Elton. I get the feeling that Emma told the author what to write.

'Insufferable woman!' 'Worse than I had supposed. Absolutely insufferable!' 'A little upstart, vulgar being...all her airs of pert pretension and under-bred finery.' '...and the quarter of an hour convinced Emma that Mrs Elton was a vain woman, extemely well satisfied with herself, and thinking much of her own importance; that she meant to shine and be very superior, but with manners which had been formed in a bad school,, pert and familiar; that all her notions were drawn from one set of people, and one style of living; that if not foolish she was ignorant, and that her society would certainly do Mr Elton no good.'

And this is the girl who so desperately needed a friend after Miss Taylor went off and got married to Mr Weston. Except for Harriet she rejects everyone. Emma's estimation of Mrs Elton reflects more on herself than someone other.

Bellamarie, very imaginative texts for a vicar's sermon. Now that he has the girl with twenty thousand, he can preach about the evils of being rich. How long will it be, do you think, before the Eltons have their very own barouche-landau? Highbury has got itself a new queen. What's to become of Emma?

[bellamarie]

I see Emma as a very intuitive person.  She picks up on Mrs. E., trying so hard to fit in, and yes, act superior.  If you notice, she and Mr. Knightley share similar thoughts.  He may criticize Emma for speaking her thoughts, yet he sits back thinking them without speaking them aloud.  I am but certain, our author, Jane Austen came across many a Mrs. Eltons in her lifetime.  Haven't we all?

I had to laugh out loud reading this!
Jonathan, 

Highbury has got itself a new queen. What's to become of Emma?

Have no fear, there is already the thought/talk of Emma marrying.  Once Emma and Mr. Knightley finally find their way to one another and marry....Ooops there goes Mrs. Elton's place on the throne, maybe she and Mr. E., can ride off into the sunset to Maple Grove in their barouche-landau,she is so impressed to own.   

Emma does not need to have many friends.  She is happy with having a true friend, in Harriet.  Most girls/women have but one very close, true, confidante as a friend.  Others become merely acquaintances we call friends, that are included in different activities.  Jane Austen got this right, from my perspective.       

[BarbStAubrey]

All of a sudden a flash last night - Reverend Elton hmm - seen as pompous and reads like he is an all round bore and then a backstory hit me - from our reading other Austen books we learned, I think it was when we read Sense and Sensibility that when the father's estate is passed on it goes to the eldest son and that a younger son either joins the army and hopefully rises in the ranks where he is given more of the spoils after a winning battle that furthers his wealth and standing although, never to the wealth and standing of the oldest brother or, a younger son finds 'a living' as a Vicar. As a Vicar he can procure the patronage of a wealthy family or, usually an elderly widow, as well as, raise himself in the ranks to a Bishop - what that financial structure is I do not know. My guess is they get a percent of all the donations from all the parish churches. They may not be called parishes but do not know what the subdivision of areas with a vicarage is called.  

Now I am imagining growing up as a small boy into manhood knowing your older brother is set for life surrounded by the accouterments of wealth and the inheritance includes continuing to live in the comfort of the home they grew up in, where as, a second or third son I can only imagine you would feel less worthy, as Edward Ferrars is punished by being denied his inheritance and cast out to make 'a living'.

Granted (ha not Hugh Grant but a word too close ) anyhow Edward Ferrars or Hugh Grant is not feeling the need to be pompous in an effort to build his own self-importance since he did it to get the girl and he does, where as, Mr. Elton had to grow up his entire life attempting to feel as worthy as an older brother that we do not hear about in this story but given the strict social hierarchy you know there had to be an older brother - and so, where he is still a bore with self-serving habits I feel sorry for the poor guy. Heck even his choice of a mate is limited since the deal is the girls are all out for the best catch which means wealth and position. He was not even born with the looks that woman would throw themselves at his feet with hopes of marriage.

I wonder if we change the costumes and bring this story into the 21st century if this is a tale of cooperate acquisition.    

[bellamarie]

Yes, Barb, as you recall in the story of, Wives and Daughters, by Elizabeth Gaskell that took place in   the 1860s, the older son Osborne went off to college to be educated to take over the Hamley estate when need be, and the younger son Roger was less educated, expected to be a vicar.  Osborne squandered family money on a hidden wife. Mrs. Gibson tries unsuccessfully to arrange a marriage between Cynthia and Osborne, as her aspirations include having a daughter married to landed gentry. Osborne has a son, by a young Aimee a Catholic, the family had no idea of.  Little Osborne is to be the heir of the Hamley estate, since his father Osborne, the eldest son dies.  If Osborne had died with no son, then Roger the younger son would have been heir.

Anyone watching Downton Abbey, also knows that Matthew Crawley was a distant cousin, and was to be heir to the Crawley estate because Robert Crawley Earl of Grantham had no sons.  Matthew dies on the day his son is born, and he will become the heir to Grantham/Downton Abbey.

Women were passed over.  So I suppose Mrs. E., boasting in all her glory being married to Mr. Elton, feels she has rightly moved up a notch or two in Highbury.  I don't want to sound insensitive, but I do not have any sympathy or sorrow for Mr. E., if anything he married the first woman who would have him, after Emma rejects him.  He had ill motives for wanting Emma, so it seems karma came around to him with Augusta for a wife.  Perfect match, if I do say so. 

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE: I love your texts! I'd love to see Mr. E trying to preach to them with a straight face (or maybe he has so little self - awareness that he could do it.

Yes, BARB, I can see Mr. Elton as a younger son, trying to match a brother in importance and style.

JONATHAN: yes, there's no getting around it: Emma is a snob. This may be the next lesson she had to learn. In her defense, Mrs. E. IS hard to take with her bragging, and trying to take over everyone's life. And the E's are nasty, as we'll see.

[JoanK]

It's fascinating to me that Downton Abbey is set a full century after Emma, yet I keep  thinking of parallels in the customs, manners, and values. Do you think that would be true of a story set in the US?

The other thing that strikes me is how much Austen makes fun of everyday conversation, and it's tediousness. I picture her sitting in her little closed world dying to meet someone who has interesting things to say. (If it wasn't for Seniorlearn, that could be me.)

[Jonathan]

'Mrs. E. IS hard to take with her bragging, and trying to take over everyone's life.'

'Emma does not need to have many friends.  She is happy with having a true friend, in Harriet.'

'I wonder if we change the costumes and bring this story into the 21st century if this is a tale of cooperate acquisition.'

'And the vicar's wife....very mean spirited.'

'Mrs. Elton is really a pain.'

Only on Seniorlearn. I'm sorry folks, but I'm not going to let Emma decided whom I should like or dislike. I don't like her wild intuitions. I don't think she's intuitive at all. Far too calculating for that. She's a wonderful character, and I hope her Karma doesn't catch up with her before she comes to her senses. Does anyone here think they would want her as a friend, or even if they could be a friend to her?  Poor, witless Harriet is not her friend, nor is Emma a friend to her. Or, as they say: with a friend like that, who needs an enemy. No doubt Emma thinks she is helping Harriet, and that's the way Emma sees herself. Just helping those she chooses.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh God I just realized with Jonathan's questions, I have a real life friend like Emma - I do not see a Mr. Knightly in her future though - shoot - lordy now that I realize an adjustment is needed - I kinda like Harriet as a role model assuming she is just playing along.

[bellamarie]

Oh dear, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, Jonathan.  I would want to be friends with Emma.  I could never deal with someone reserved like Jane, who I suspect holds secrets.  And I certainly would want nothing to do with gabby, boastful Mrs. E., always needing a compliment.  

How many mea culpas does Emma have to confess, for you to see she was genuinely sorry for the situation she caused with Harriet and Mr. Elton.  She has vowed to not matchmake any more, and so far has kept her promise.  Emma is a true friend to Harriet, and Mrs. E., has decided to make Harriet her target, since Emma has not accepted her invitation to play music.

pg. 494 In one respect Mrs. Elton grew even worse than she had appeared at first.  Her feelings altered towards Emma.  Offended, probably, by the little encouragement which her proposals of intimacy met with, she drew back, in her turn, and gradually became much more cold and distant; and though the effect was agreeable, the ill will which produced it was necessarily increasing Emma's dislike.  Her manners, too__and Mr. Elton's __were unpleasant towards Harriet.  They were sneering and negligent.  Emma hoped it must rapidly work Harriet's cure; but the sensations which could prompt such behaviour sunk them both very much.  It was not to be doubted poor Harriet's attachment had been an offering to conjugal unreserve, and her own share in the story, under colouring the least favorable to her, and the most soothing to him, had in all likelihood been given also.  So was, of course, the object of their joint dislike.  When they had nothing else to say, it must be always easy to being abusing Miss Woodhouse; and the enmity which they dared not show in open disrespect to her found a broader vent in contemptuous treatment of Harriet.

Emma feels bad because Harriet has not had anyone ask her to dance.  Mrs. Weston tried to prompt Mr. Elton to ask Emma to dance and he refused.  I can't even imagine WHY Mrs. Weston would ever consider it a good idea for Mr. Elton to ask Harriet to dance.  Does she have no knowledge of all that transpired?  Emma is mortified to see Mr. Elton be so blatantly disrespectful to Mrs. Weston.  Emma cares very much for Harriet's feelings.

pg. 516 In another moment a happier sight caught her eye__Mr. Knightley leading Harriet to the set!  Never had she been more surprised, seldom more delighted, that at that instant.  She was all pleasure and gratitude, both for Harriet and herself, and longed to be thanking him; and though too distant for speech, her countenance said much, as soon as she could catch his eye again.

Even Frank does not like Mrs. Elton:  pg. 514  
"How do you like Mrs. Elton?"  said Emma in a whisper.

"Not at all."

"You are ungrateful."  

"Ungrateful!  What do you mean?"  Then changing from a frown to a smile, "No, do not tell me, I do not want to know what you mean.  Where is my father?  When are we to begin dancing?"

As we read on, Jane even gets infuriated with Mrs. E., butting into her business about getting a governess job.

I just do not see Emma as a snob.  She truly does not like Mrs. Elton, and I can't say as I blame her. I am not allowing Emma to choose for me, who I will like in the story.  If Emma were not even a character in the book, and all the characters were, I still would NOT like Mrs. Elton.  She is very mean spirited, self centered, boastful, domineering, annoying and down right difficult to be in the same room with.   



 

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE: "Does she [Mrs. Weston] have no knowledge of all that transpired?"

we have to assume that she doesn't know. I don't imagine Emma would have been in a hurry to tell her.

[JoanK]

I'll have guests for the rest of the week (PatH's daughters and grandchildren) sleeping in the room where the computer is (yes, I'm a dinosaur and don't have a laptop or I-phone. but I'll get in when I can, and PatH will keep me up-to-date.

[bellamarie]

JoanK., You may be right about Emma not telling Mrs. Weston.  She would not want to divulge all that happened, especially how Mr. E. Made advances toward her.  But, if a man is newly married, why would Mrs. Weston encourage him to dance with a single girl? 

" Miss Smith__Oh!  I had not observed.  You are extremely obling__and if I were not an old married__but my dancing days are over, Mrs. Weston.  You will excuse me.  Anything else I should be most happy to do, at your command__but my dancing days are over."

But oh my, look who's dancing days seem to have begun!  First Mr. Knightley, is a gentleman and asks Harriet to dance, and now he and Emma have a first dance together.

"Come, Emma, set your companions the example.  Everybody is lazy!  Everybody is asleep!"

"I am ready," said Emma, "whenever I am wanted."

"Whom are you going to dance with?" Asked Mr. Knightley.

She hesitated a moment, and replied, "With you if you will ask me."

"Will you?" Said he, offering his hand.

"Indeed I will.  You have shown that you can dance, and you know we are not really so much brother and sister as to make it improper."

"Brother and sister! No, indeed."

This little expression with Mr. Knightley gave Emma considerable pleasure.  It was one of the agreeable recollections of the ball, which she walked about the lawn the next morning to enjoy.  She was extremely glad that they had come to so good an understanding respecting the Elton's, and that their opinions of both husband and wife were so much alike; and his praise of Harriet, his concession in her favor, was peculiarly gratifying.

All seems to be going right for Emma, Harriet, and Mr. Knightley. 

Harriet rational, Frank Churchill not too much in love, and Mr. Knightley not wanting to quarrel with her, how very happy a summer must be for her.

Hmmmmmm.....what can go wrong now?