Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[Frybabe]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

"The Night Villa: Carol Goodman’s luminous prose and superb storytelling will keep you entertained into the late hours.” –Nancy Pickard “The pleasure of a Carol Goodman novel is in her enviable command of the classical canon–and the deft way she [writes] a book that’s light enough for a weekend on the beach but literary enough for a weekend in the Hamptons.”  –Chicago Tribune

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News  Flash! Carol Goodman, award winning author of The Night Villa, will attend our June discussion of her book. If you like mystery mixed with mythology, cultural and religious history and intrigue then this is the story for you.

The novel is a multi layered mystery set in the exploration of an ancient Roman villa.  Carol Goodman is a former Latin teacher who knows her stuff, and since we met with her in NYC, we know she is an incredibly responsive person.  This will be "one for the  Books.."  Do join us June 1!

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Our meeting in NYC with Carol

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Schedule: Pages      4 - 112       June 1 - 7 Pages  113 - 204       June 8 - 14 Pages  204 - 291       June 15 - 22 Pages  292 / finish    June 23 - 30       Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman ~ Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Night Villa Reader's Group Questions & Topics for Discussion

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Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

In the first week of June, Week I  we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in  the first 112 pages. If your question  may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one  for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.
     

I just finished The Seduction of Water yesterday. Then, I grabbed a SciFi book to cart off to work with me for the evening. What a come down in writing quality/style from Ms. Goodman's writing. Now I am spoiled. My plan is to start reading The Night Villa Monday or Tuesday.
--Frybabe

[ginny]

Well only a few more days now till we begin! I'm getting quite excited, quite nervous actually, but I needn't be with this group of discerning readers AND Carol, who is graciousness itself,  very exciting!

If you are new to our book discussions, you'll want to know Andrea and I will  be putting some....not sure what to call them.....topics or questions for your consideration in the heading.  I think we've got about 30 for the first 112 pages. hahahaaaaaaaaaa

These questions are NOT exam papers, their only purpose is to possibly spark conversation on a particular train of thought, so you won't want to number your paper from 1-30 and try to "answer" them all, that's not what they are for.

Usually our readers have something THEY want to talk about. YOUR topics  or questions  will also appear in the heading if you like or suggest one for the heading, and if you'd like to suggest one, please do.

It's always a challenge to respond to the million and one ideas our readers throw out, but our best discussions happen when our readers talk to each other about what each person raises. As you are typing your own response, you can scroll down (a feature of this site) and see easily what everybody else has said before you), NEAT!

Remember if it's not in the first 112 pages, we'll talk about it when we get to it, you can have READ the book 11,112 times however, and some of us have read it many times.

We are so pleased to have an international audience here and such a fine group of readers for our first Author Event on our new site and particularly Carol Goodman, it's an honor.

 Fireworks for Memorial Day, our great readers,  and Carol!


Happy Memorial Day Weekend!

[ALF43]

NOBODY CAN STRIKE UP THE BAND QUITE LIKE GINNY!  I AM SO GRATEFUL THAT SHE IS WELL ENOUGH TO BE HERE AS OUR LEADER.

(she shouts)

[ginny]

hahah Andrea, gosh!  Reminding all that Andrea is not only  the co leader here but one of the best. hahahaa Lots of enthusiasm here and I'm hearing from some folks who have not posted in here they are also planning to join us, also, what fun!!

One of the books that Carol read as background  and mentioned in  one of her reflections in the back is David Sider's The Library of the Villa dei Papiri at Herculaneum.

 I was thinking to myself I would like to know more about this "papyrus" stuff,  and was looking for some background material.   I  thought I might have some books on  the Villa of the Papiri, and   I do, and I  found it  in a stack (I'm ashamed to say an unread stack) when cleaning finally the back room. So I sat down to read it and  thought that name sounded familiar and lo and behold she mentions it in the back!!  I am excited about that because  I really appreciate it  when an author gives us some "read more about it" sources, or quotes sources they may have used, and have been tremendously enjoying reading it, it's an eye opener. It's a GOOD one.

I'm mentioning it especially again  here because sometimes the more you know about something or the more effort you put into anything,  the more you sometimes get out of it, and  your local libraries may have it. It's VERY readable. Tall and paperback and thin.

The chapter on Greek and Roman books alone is worth a sit down in any Barnes & Noble.  Your books at home may not be on papyrus (although sometimes I feel old enough that they should be  and you may wonder what this "papyrus" stuff  is all about.

Sider  explains what a Roman book (on papyrus) looked like, how they made them,   how they stored them, and the truly horrific efforts they previously made to try to read those they found in the Villa dei Papyri, (when they weren't burning them for fuel, they look like charred lumps of coal or wood)...unreal. I want to bring some of that to the conversation, but if you can get your hands on that book, a picture is worth a thousand words, and it's full of pictures. Your mouth will literally drop: what an exciting fun trip we're going on June 1!! What exciting SUBJECTS for a mystery!

Everyone is welcome! Come with us!

[catbrown]

Thanks, Ginny, I just ordered David's book from Amazon. I write "David" so familiarly for a reason: he was one of my very best friends in my late high school years and all through college. I lost track of him for awhile, but then we reconnected for one brief meeting about 10 years ago or so. He told me that he was an expert on deciphering newly discovered Greek poetry scrolls, but I didn't know that he had written anything about Pompeii. Wow!

Interestingly, David started taking Greek and Latin in the same classes as I did ... and I think he became interested in the first place because of my enthusiasm.  He was a math major at the time!

Cathy

[ginny]

Cathy! REALLY? I tell you what, he's  a fine man and it's a super book. He  just sent me a source for the illustration we need, this is getting VERY exciting here!

[ginny]

PS I think most of the stuff at the Villa dei Papiri  in Herculaneum IS in Greek.  I'm thinking our focus here tho will be on the Latin. Still reading the book.

Good point!  Good book.

[catbrown]

I've read past page 112 by now ... of course ... and I have a question: what's the best current source material about mystery religions?

[Suzie]

HI,  I am also a current Latin student (Latin 101) and just got back on-line after major computer problems, so am reading these pages for the first time.  Was very saddened to hear of Ginny's accident on page 1, but then am so happy that she reappears on page 2!  Hope your healing is going well.  It seems to take bones a bit longer as our bodies get more life experience.

Completed The Night Villa a few days ago.  What a thriller...couldn't put it down after embarking on the last chapters.  Am hopeful to join everyone, and re-read the mystery again with you all.   Ginny's Latin course was so interesting that I decided to take a course on Mythology at the U of MD this summer (space permitting..for "seniors", but free tuition).  The Classics Dept recommends it for all interested in studying Latin or Greek, and after reading this novel, I can understand why!  Looking forward to the discussions.  Its a new adventure for me to participate in a book group and how fun it will to have the author with us.

[ALF43]

 A very big welcome to another of Ginny's Latin students, Suzie.
We are so pleased that you will be joining us for our discussion and just WAIT until you meet our author, you guys will keep her hopping with questions.

She is a wealth of knowledge and such FUN!

 I have had to hold myself back from reading the book in its entirety.  I will admit to being up to page 220+ but have held back so that when I post and ask questions I won't make it a "spoiler" question.  I have a tendency to get a bit carried away with a thought and fear that  I might start to "babble."  I would love to find a course around here about Greek Mythology, I loved it in college but that was a ga-zillion years ago.  

Cathy, you are NOT joking?  You actually have known David thru high school and college?  That is so exciting and another example of the "small" world we live in and just how close we all interconnect.  (Maybe you can invite him into our discussion)

[catbrown]

Nope, no joke. To give you an idea ... Dave drove me to the hospital when I was in labor with my first baby ... . But, since I haven't spoken to him in now ... actually, it must be more like 15 years ... I'm shy about inviting him into this discussion, particularly since, last time I talked to him, I brought up Mary Renault, and he said he never, ever read historical fiction. Not that "The Night Villa" is historical fiction, but I'm afraid it's too damn close to get him interested!

Hmm, but all this talking about him (his ears must be burning) is making me think that maybe I'll contact him when I'm in New York in July. He'll laugh when I tell him I'm revisiting Latin!

[ginny]

Well I feel good about that, because  I don't read historical fiction  either. But it's ok with me for those who do.

This one's a mystery (as you said, fiction, )  with  great background materials (some  real, some not, that alone will be so fun, we must keep a list)  sprinkled in it.

 The whole thing fascinates me.

I am loving his book. And while he might not care to read the discussion,  he might be open to a question in his specialty, if we  together can't figure out the answer.  We've had a lot of notable academics in our book discussions in the past: heck we had the Stanley Lombardo answer questions in our discussion of the Iliad, his translation:  he was a champ.

I bet he'd LOVE to hear from you! He wouldn't laugh to hear you're revisiting Latin, he'd understand and appreciate it.

On your question, Cathy, I think that would be a super question for Carol. The very thought of the mystery religions,   Eleusinian mysteries,  Bacchic mysteries,  the cult of Dionysius, or  Dionysus Zagreus  is enough to turn ME pale! hahaha She's the one!  


I like reading a book that has elements I know nothing about, sure in the knowledge that together we'll ferret them out, and then we'll all know. This book has a LOT of those.

Suzie, so glad to hear you are undertaking a university  class in mythology  this summer!!   I hope you can have a place, that is fabulous! We have had  several of our students taking summer courses, which is just tremendously exciting, everything you learn benefits us all!

That's what our site here actually is all about.

Exciting, huh?

[catbrown]

On the subject of mythology: I always become uncomfortable when I use that term or hear it used. It's true that it's the usual way (even, I believe among classicists) to refer to Greek and Roman religious beliefs, but I wonder if it misleads us into thinking that they (the Greeks and Romans) didn't actually believe in these deities. As far as I know, there may have been different ways of thinking about them (e.g., did they actually take human form?) but no controversy about their existence.

[Gumtree]

I checked out my local  library for the David Sider book mentioned The Library of the Villa Dei Papiri at Herculaneum - they don't have it but are getting it for me from a neighbouring library though it may be a week or two - I should get my hands on it fairly soon and certainly during the discussion.

Now ...for all those references to mythology...

[Gumtree]

Catbrown I'm sure the ancients believed in their deities. It has never occurred to me for that to be in doubt.  Mythology as a term seems to cover a multitude of matters...maybe we should check out the definition of the word...

How wonderful of you to know David Sider - I'm sure he would be gratified to know of the interest in his book generated on this site. Maybe he could come in to answer specific questions - Ginny will have lots of them!

[catbrown]

Thinking more about the mythology, my problem is that ancient religion is "mythical," but current religious beliefs are not.

[Suzie]

Have been listening to a course from the Teaching Company titled "Classical Mythology" by Elizabeth Vandiver (from the U of  MD, no less!)  who tackles the definition and theories of mythology in several of the lectures.  She defines a myth as, "traditional stories a society tells itself that encode or represent  the world view, beliefs, principles, and often fears of that society."  She also says that "myth" is a difficult concept to define...and we are not really able to understand the actual functions of a myths in the original society but can use myths to gain a better understanding of it...based, on what was actually written down of oral traditions and stories.

Catbrown, perhaps one might argue that some of the religious beliefs in today's many cultures are based on mythical stories....??

[marcie]

This is a really interesting conversation about mythology. My husband says that when he studied Greek he learned the difference between the Greek words "mythos" and "logos." He says that the term "mythos" (muthos) did not have the connotation that the word myth carries today about something being "untrue." Mythos was used the way that Suzie says that Elizabeth Vandiver defines it...descriptions and stories that attempt to relate the beliefs and principles of a society. Logos was used to talk about an orderly view of nature or the universe; a reasoned explanation.

Suzie, That's great that you've found a Teaching Company course on Mythology!

[ginny]

These are  great topics,  mythology and religion: way too big for me, they are  a college course (or two) in themselves.

Gum, you wil love the book!! And I think you are dead right, we do need some definitions. I like both the ones Suzie and marcie supplied. Suzie and Marcie, those are both super points, made while I was typing this!! I'm looking forward to hearing the latest when  Suzie finishes her  in person course, too. That seems a super reference, Suzie, does she take up the role of  Greek mythology in Roman religion? I just read a fabulous quote by Cicero in the new Mary Beard book which would suggest maybe not!

I think that the dual  issues of "mythology" and "religion" are fascinating, dealing as they do, in the classical world,  with the Greeks and then the Romans and the adaptations over a long period of time for both.

I like the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature's take on both of these subjects, in hopefully partial response also to Cathy's question here's my 2 cents.

 It's too long to repeat here, but the OCCL goes into some detail about the Greeks and then the Romans. We're more interested in the Romans and their ideas of religion if I understand the question correctly.

 

They point out the importance of religious rituals in every day Roman life, stating that there  three ways

in which mortals might approach a god: through prayer, by which a request was brought to a god's attention; through sacrifice, by which the god might be induced to grant a request;  and through divination by which the god's will could be made known. Religion at Rome came to govern all political activities and consequently to be manipulated for partisan purposes, because of the necessity, before all state undertakings, of consulting the will of the gods by taking the auspices.

All religious ceremonial was highly ritualistic, and the most scrupulous attention was paid to the minutiae of procedure.....The formulae of invocation and prayer , and the forms of ritual were handed down unchanged and recorded by the colleges, so that in later times the ancient words and actions were barely understood. More attention was paid to the ritual than to the personality and attributes of the deity: it not infrequently happened that the ritual survived when the deity itself was forgotten (see Furrina).

The business like, contractual nature of the  Roman religion is seen in the very frequent use of vows (vota) public and private.

We all know the Romans were free to worship any god they chose, and that was the main problem with Christianity when it appeared, again quoting:

 demanding renunciation of the old and a new start, admitting no compromise with alien faiths, refusing worship to the deified emperor, and demanding an exclusive allegiance. This uncompromising spirit caused the persecution of the Christians but ensured the ultimate triumph of their faith.

Every house had a shrine and its own household gods, the lares and penates. There were several kinds of lares. The famous incident depicted deliberately by  Vergil in the Aeneid shows   Aeneas carrying his aged father Anchises from burning Troy. Even in the excitement Anchises is carrying a small  shrine to  the lares, the household gods! Here's Bernini's take on the incident:

The Romans had no sacred writings except for the formulae of prayer. They were free to think what they liked about the gods: what mattered was the religious acts they performed. It was the necessity for the exact fulfillment of their religious duties which promoted discipline and obedience to the sate. With the development of Rome, the Romans attached to the gods their own developing sense of morality; a feeling that the gods were just served to sanction human law. In the private sphere the religion of the home, the sense of divine presence in the daily round of domestic  events, calling for the maintenance of right relations (pietas) both with the gods and with the other members of the family, strengthened the family tie which was the basis of Roman society.

The emphasis placed on particular virtues such as patriotism and duty led to a warmth of religious feeling being attached to these  virtues, the more so as they were often embodied in a line of "noble Romans," and frequent appeal to them was made by orators and historians.


Thus the Roman religion is at the root of the sense of duty that marked so many Romans, duty to home, gods and state. A national solidarity ensued, maintained by the annual state festivals of the various gods, so that religious became the sanctification of patriotism.

One interesting thing, I thought, pertained to us here: For instance under the topic Religion, under Romans , subheading Eastern Influences; Emperor Worship they mention that "a little later (the time given originally was 204 BC) the orgiastic worship of Dionysus spread over Italy and was suppressed with difficulty in 186 BC. See Bacchanalia. "  But then you have the Villa of the Mysteries, and the latest books which touch on it  (Mary Beard's brand new one (2009)) reveal that  nobody really knows what it depicts, but we do know what it isn't. And why it's so bright.

DID the Romans believe every one of the Greek myths implicitly?  And did they worship them?


Even among the Greeks   where the myths originated (Homer and Hesiod are credited with most of the gods and goddesses we know),

old gods and the old myths finally lost their vitality among the educated classes in the Hellenistic Age....

(Late 4th- late 2nd C BC)...

with the development of city states though the simple cults of the peasantry survived. Among the educated the old religion was replaced, in so far as it was replaced at all,  by philosophical systems, notably the Stoic and the Epicurean. Ruler-cults  became widespread in the Greek world at this time. This was a political religion without true religious spirit, the worship of a king as benefactor and protector, more powerful than the discredited gods of Olympus. Later the worship of  Rome and of Roman governors grew up with the growth of  Roman influence in eastern politics.

For the Romans:

When families came together to form the first Roman community, state cult was based on the cult and ritual of the family. At first the priest was  the king, and after the expulsion of the kings the title survived in the office of "king of the sacred things" (rex sacrorum)....new  gods appeared especially from Etruria and Magna Graecia, as Roman horizons widened.

Greek myths supplied the element of story and of the picturesque which the Roman religion lacked. But the primitive faith  in the spirits of the home and the countryside survived, especially in rural districts.

Apparently after the 3rd century when  the Stoic and Epicurean (Greek) doctrines of philosophy were introduced, the Romans "were more interested in the ethical than in the speculative side of philosophy; they also picked and chose among the doctrines of the Greeks those which suited them....as being in accord with the qualities of pietas and gravitas which they so much admired, that is, the punctilious discharge of duties toward gods, family and state."


I don't know if that helps or not. Obviously this is a big subject! Every day a new discovery is made which MAY make what we know all wrong, or at least cast a new light on it.

We really need to watch our sources in this one, too, let's dig further than Wikipedia for our info in this discussion, please try to find something with .edu on it in our misinformation age.

 One thing that really strikes me about this brief reading is the repetition of the word CULT , did you catch those? I never paid too much attention to that word before this, just took it for granted.  It's all over the book tho?

Carol may want to shed some  light on the cult  as it's so prominent in her  book.

In 2009 we definitely think of "cults" ( do we?)  as some kind of  Jim Jones and the lemonade type of thing, but obviously they did not! OR did they?  It will be interesting to see what we can discover about cults (there's another definition we need)  old and new (another parallel in the plot)!!

I tell you what, the topics here alone would make a summer's course and are a treasure hunt in themselves! I got up thinking that this morning and now I'm convinced, we're off on an adventure: a treasure hunt!

I'm about to be blown off by a storm, I'll spend that time reading Mary Beard's new book and see what she says about Roman  religion,  and what role Greek mythology played in it?

Why are we talking about Roman religion?  Because the Villa of the Papyri was Roman and the scrolls we're translating in this book are in Latin.




Wow!

[marcie]

You're right, Ginny. I think we could spin off several courses from the references in Carol's book! :-) That's one of the things that I enjoy about her books, aside from their being well-written interesting stories on their own, she always includes references to things I want to learn more about.

[marcie]

Thanks for the book references, Ginny. I'm in ninth in cue at my library for the Mary Beard book, The Fires of Vesuvius: Pompeii lost and found. They don't have the David Sider books :-(.

[ALF43]

Then what is the difference between a fable and a myth?  They are both legendary.

[Suzie]

According to Vandiver, "traditional tales" can be categorized into myth, legend, and folklore:

..myth refers only to stories that concern the gods and their rites.  It is closely connected with religious ritual.

Legend refers to traditional stories rooted in historical fact describing the ...adventures of people who actually lived ..Robin Hood or George Washington......

Folktale refers to stories that are primarily entertaining and that often involve animals or ordinary but clever humans..such as Little Red Riding Hood ...

Unfortunately, Vandiver does not define "fable".

[ALF43]

So--- a fable would be a Folktale then, Suzie?  That makes sense to me.

[Suzie]

I would agree, ALF, that fable and folktale seem to be the same...will need to check it out for certain in another reference.

[ginny]

I like those definitions, too, we need a glossary here, or I do, anyway and we'll get one up in the heading, we need a score card for a lot of this.

 For those of you who can't get the Sider book, here is a fabulous link PatW found to the Philodemus Project:

http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/philhome.htm


This is tremendously exciting and you can see the ORIGINAL plans of the Villa of the Papyri done by Karl Weber, (that story alone is a course  in itself), AND these incredible photos of what the original papyri they found look like!

Could YOU open one of those?  Or would you tend to toss it aside?

 http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/classics/Philodemus/papyrus.html

I mean, what more could you ask for?

FABULOSITY way beyond Kimora!

[Eloise]

Thanks Ginny for this most interesting post.

I don't have any knowledge of Latin, but my first language is French which is a Latin language. In my childhood our Missel book in church had Latin and French side-by-side but I don't think I remember any Latin now, but I won't let that stop me from trying to learn from all of you.

For those who don't know me, I am not a Latin student, but I have been a long time participant in book discussions and I hope to learn a lot from interesting participants gracious enough to want to share their knowledge. I might have a lot of questions that others automatically know, so I hope you will be patient with me.

Les Fables de Lafontaine is  famous for sending strong messages. We don't even think it's folklore, rather more like philosophy.

[ginny]

Eloise: me too!

I hope to learn a lot from interesting participants gracious enough to want to share their knowledge.

    I've already learned things here.

 I love your attitude! (I wish I could say something in French people did not laugh at!) hahahaa


Les Fables de Lafontaine, oh gosh I have not thought of them in years and what about Aesop's Fables, good question, Andrea.

I found out some more stuff  but before I put it in, we do need to say if YOU are reading this and  scratching your head and saying hey, now, wait a minute, I don't know any of that stuff, er..... you are in good company!

I can say with no shame I  know virtually nothing of the Eleusinian mysteries,  Bacchic mysteries,  the cult of Dionysius, or  Dionysus Zagreus or Dionysian mysteries,  and what little I have read does not commend them hahahaa, so we'll have to get Carol as we get into it to tell us about them,  (hopefully) and we can  all learn together and MATH? (she says with all hairs sticking up in the air?) Pythagoras? Please.

Bring anything you have to the table, questions, comments or information, we need them. That's what makes the best discussions.

I am a BIG fan of the  Preston and Childs books, starting  with Relic, set in the Museum of Natural history where one of them worked.  Their recent books are way out there, monasteries in Tibet, strange mysterious rites, I have no earthly idea if what they are talking about even has any real base (knowing them it probably does ) or not but that does not keep me from LOVING their Pendergast books and enjoying every minute. (Besides you learn something every time you read one,  whether you want to or not)!

So fear not, Gentle Reader,  bring your reactions and your  opinions, your  questions, what you don't know and what you do,  and, if you like,  whatever you find on the subjects in the book, as Marcie says, in addition to a super read, there is so much to learn about!

 We are going to have a ball! Everyone is welcome!

[ginny]

OK I've found some new stuff in two books that seems to pertain to both Roman religion and mystery cults.  This may be useful? Both these books have either (Mary Beard) huge chapters or (Joanne  Berry) multiple chapters on Religion and my typing skills are not up to the task, hopefully we'll all bring lots of stuff. But one of these quotes is too good to miss.

Joanne Berry's 2007 The Complete Pompeii lists these deities for whom there is some  evidence of worship in Pompeii (which was not far from Herculaneum where the Villa of the Papyri was).

Town sponsored or accepted cults:
 
Aesculapius, Apollo, Ceres, Diana,  Dionysus/ Bacchus, Hercules, Isis, Juno, Jupiter, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune and Venus.

 These are familiar names to those who know Greek mythology.  However,  for some of these the evidence is fragmentary: perhaps an inscription on a wall. She talks about "cults" but does not define the word.

She has a separate chapter on Imperial cults and one on  Mystery Religions and Foreign Cults, and says they, often from the East, offered "adherents a more personal form of religion, often related to the promise of an afterlife."

Now this seems to be more what the book is talking about.  She says such religions were "frequently treated with suspicion by the Roman establishment."

In addition to the gods which might have been expected to appear in Pompeii there was also Lakshmi, of India, Sabazius, and Isis of Egypt.  

She says the Villa of the Mysteries frescoes may show  

initiation into a secret cult of Dionysus, god of wine and mystic  ecstasy, whose cult was particularly attractive to women, or of a secret woman's cult. The initiand to the cult would be subjected to trials, suffer, undergo purification and be initiated into the mysteries…

Now that's right on the money for us. (They may also, however, indicate something else).

Mary Beard's long chapter on religion says nothing that the OCCL did not,  and repeats most of it,  ritual, etc.,  except for a few quotes of interest in her chapter A City Full of  Gods.

Pompeii teemed with gods and goddesses….The city contained literally thousands of images of these gods and goddesses. If you count them all, big and small and in every medium, they were probably more in number then the living human population.

She says "We tend to take the images of ancient gods too much for granted."

And in a nod to Cathy's question, she says "Romans could disagree violently, not about whether the gods existed, (that was a fact rather than a belief), but about what they were like, how the different deities related to one another, and about  how, when, and  why they intervened in the lives of humans."

She also says that "In this sense many of the images of gods and goddesses that Pompeians saw around them in their daily lives were much more meaningful than we assume."

She talks about religious processions and floats,  and says "After the Lares (which we mentioned above) Mercury is the most popular divine subject, closely followed by the Egyptian gods, with Venus, Minerva, Jupiter, and Hercules, in that order, coming next." Berry says there are more images of Venus than anything else, however.

Then she has a pretty good section on Isis, the ritual bathing (she says theoretically it  was in water from  the Nile) for purification, and says "it is hard to resist the feeling that this cult is treading  a fairly safe line between its traditional civic Italian links and its mystical Egyptian "otherness." And she says that it was the Temple of Isis, "exotic and a little sinister….[which]…gave Mozart, who visited Pompeii in 1769, ideas for the Magic Flute."

I didn't know that!

But I think the best quote in her book so far comes from Cicero, who, apparently displeased,  wrote a   "cross letter" to Marcus Fabius Gallus, who was acting as his agent and who had bought for him

a set of marble "Bacchantes"—the female followers of the god Dionysus (or Bacchus), and a well known symbol in the ancient world of wildness, intoxication, and lack of restraint.

They were, as Cicero admitted, "pretty little things." But they were completely unsuitable for a (sober) library. A set of Muses, on the other hand, would have been just the ticket.

Don't you love that? That may sum up in many ways the Romans and their attitude, at least that of the Republic.


And then at the end she takes up Isis, a mystery religion from Egypt and here the common elements of initiation, mystery rites,  purification and (in the case of Isis) possible resurrection and afterlife were thought to be present.

So it's a wide open field here, apparently, with lots of permutations, who KNEW those dusty old ancients had so much going? hahaaaa

Just think, if it were not for Carol's book we'd not be talking about it either!  That's one reason why, in looking for her, I found her name on a list of Classicists who have been honored for making a contribution to the field!

So we are all thrilled to welcome her here!

[Gumtree]

All this talk on mythology has sent me to look for 'stuff'  - so I have been browsing in Thomas Bullfinch's Age of Fable first published in 1855...

In my 1966 copy there is an afterword by Martin Bucco, then of Colorado State University who wrote this...

Through the ages scholars have struggled with esoteric problems arising from tales of obscure or forgotten origin... Theognis of Rhedium, for example viewed myth as allegory. Plutarch considered myths to be philosophical speculation. Aristotle saw them as metaphysical statements. Euhemerus read the old stories as historical accounts. Thucydides and Cicero understood them to be simply personifications of natural phenomena.

To the whetstone of mythology came moderns eager to grind their assumptions: Sir Walter Raleigh, for instance, held myths to be disguised stories from the Bible. Andrew Lang used myths to document the "anthropological" thesis that all societies evolve identically. To Max Muller, a philologist, all Aryan tongues stemmed from Sanscrit, and myths changed through a "disease of language". George Cox believed that every mythical hero represented the 'solar deity' and all myths revolved around the conflict between light and dark. James Frazer saw fertility rites as the origin of myths.

To Sigmund Freud of the psychoanaltyical school, the mythic hero is "wish fulfillment" and the monster, "repression". Myths reconstruct childhood fantasies, according to Otto Rank of the "nature" school. Carl Jung looked upon myths as the product of "collective unconsciousness" and our identification with them is strong because of "racial memory".

To Robert Graves myth is "a dramatic shorthand record" of a culture's need to explain phenomena, to justify existing social orders, and to preserve traditional rites and customs.

Archeologists, theologians, romantics, rationalists - all have investigated myths and labeled them everything from "patriotic" to "comic" to "mystic".

For Bullfinch, however, the value of mythology resides not in theories, but in the narratives themselves. Nevertheless, he rounds out his retelling of the Greco-Roman tales by describing briefly four theories: scriptual, historical, allegorical and physical. Each is "true to a certain extent" Bullfinch surmises, for "the mythology of a nation has sprung from all these sources combined".

In the light of multiplied theories during the past century, perhaps his eclectic conclusion still holds, but one wonders how Bullfinch would regard the solemn scientific scrutiny of the enchanting stories of The Age of Fable

Excessive ingenuity frequently does mislead, but so long as men encounter myths and fables through a multitude of channels (as did the Athenians), so long will scholars try to interpret them by using all available resources...

All this doesn't exactly answer the question of what mythology really is but with such varying opinions on what myths are and how they are to be interpreted - well it's no wonder I get confused.

 I think the real point is that the mythology of any society is reinterpreted by each generation and again by every age so that even the ancients myths remain part of the fabric of the society in which we all live today...they are perhaps disguised and retold in different ways but I think the underlying narrative remains true.

[Mippy]

Hi to Ginny, who did (perhaps) not see me check in last week ... and hi to all on a cool, rainy day in MA !  This introduction on myths and Roman/Greek gods is very interesting!

I hope I might bring to this discussion the Jewish viewpoint, not that I am an expert, but I enjoy looking up areas where my knowledge is spotty.

The ritual baths of the Roman women remind me of the Mikvah, the ritual Jewish bathing requirement for Orthodox Jewish women.    As a reform Jewish woman, I have never had this experience, but it is well known to be an important part of every month for those who are observant.

Here's a link from the Chabad organization, which is known for Jewish outreach activities.

http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm

... more later ... babysitting calls ...

[Frybabe]

Gosh, Ginny, you've been busy. There are so many religious rituals, gods, goddesses, cults, religious holidays, etc. that it is hard to keep them all straight.

There seem to be more "takes" on mythology than I ever thought. The use of the word cult to describe the many, many varieties of religious beliefs - now I feel like researching word origins and how the definition of cult may or may not have changed over the years, not to mention when it came into use.

Mippy, thanks for the info about Mikvah. At work, I process files for printing of several Jewish magazines. Occasionally, if time allows, I read a few paragraphs of interest.  I got curious enough about the letter abbreviations such as zt'l behind names to look them up. I was delighted to find out that they are kind of a shorthand for phrases honoring their memory, some for those who passed on and others for those still living. An article I recently read was about Kristallnacht, which I never knew about. A little off subject, I know, but your mention reminded me of it.

[ALF43]

Well thank God Gumtree that it's not just one of us that is confused.
Yikes----  Cults, myths vs. fables, rituals vs. control, all this mysticicism----------I am in a tail spin.

  There is so much to learn and that is the beauty, my friends, of sharing a great book together.  I will be asking a lot of questions as well Eloise, so we can sit in the back with our hands raised high when we need an answer.  This will be fun.

[catbrown]

What a great discussion! I'll throw in a match in the fire here ... . Yesterday, at the introductory session of a Roman Civilization class at UC Berkeley, the instructor said that the Romans had "a religious system not based on belief." It wasn't an appropriate time to query that statement, but I can't wait to find out what she really means!

[ALF43]

oh catbrown how I would love to get into a class like that.  Did she say that to tweak your interest or raise many questions?

Romans had "a religious system not based on belief."

I wonder if she meant because the Roman religion was such a plethora of mixed influences, especially Greek.  The Romans early religion was based on their belief in"spirits."

You must keep us informed of this class, it sounds captivating to me.

[marcie]

Wow, Ginny, suzie, eloise, Gumtree, Mippy, Frybabe, catbrown and everyone. I agree with Alf that this discussion is going to generate lots of paths of interest that flow from the book. We'll have lots to explore and learn.

[Ella Gibbons]

I finished the suggested 112 pages of the book this morning and, of course, have loads of questions which I imagine I should save until the discussion is underway.

One comment.  Women in mythology are treated terribly and I hope this is not a reflection of women in the Roman period.  I have an old textbook of Western Civilization which dates the Romans from 800 B.C. to A.D. 400 and it is difficult for me to believe that the empire of Rome was one of such debauchery; however then one thinks of the brutality of the gladiator contests and the slavery, etc.

[catbrown]

oh catbrown how I would love to get into a class like that.  Did she say that to tweak your interest or raise many questions?

Romans had "a religious system not based on belief."

I wonder if she meant because the Roman religion was such a plethora of mixed influences, especially Greek.  The Romans early religion was based on their belief in"spirits."

You must keep us informed of this class, it sounds captivating to me.

I couldn't query her because it was part of a general, very introductory summary of Roman culture, not intended for discussion (kind of a teaser), but, given our discussion here it sure caught my attention. I really don't have a clue what she meant exactly.

The class looks like it's going to be great. There appear to be quite a few very motivated and informed students and the instructor, who's a graduate student in a PHD program, is an excellent teacher, who obviously knows the material, but also knows how to engage a class and who intends to run it very interactively. Almost all of the texts are the writings of ancient authors; at the moment I'm reading the assignment in Livy.

The passage I just read is about how Romulus' successor invented all kinds of religious rites to keep the Romans occupied during peacetime and to add legitimacy to his reign. Livy writes that the king claimed to have direct instruction from a goddess, a claim that Livy clearly does not believe!

[Suzie]

Was doing some searching for Roman religious cults and found the following site which has some very interesting information and pictures:
       http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook10.html#Roman Mystery Religions   

 Am not comfortable with internet information if a site doesn't seem to have been updated.  I don't know how to tell if the information provided is reliable...perhaps someone with more internet savy than I could look at its authenticity.

[catbrown]

After just a quick look, this looks to me to be an amazing resource.  And it's Fordham, after all, which I would consider a generally reliable resource.

Thanks Suzie!