Author Topic: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st  (Read 39233 times)

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2009, 08:46:30 PM »
   

Before the publication of Loving Frank in 2007, few details were known about the love affair between Martha (nicknamed Mamah) Borthwick Cheney and the legendary architect Frank Lloyd Wright. The two met in 1903 when Mamah and Edwin H. Cheney commissioned Wright to design a new home for them. The strong attraction between Mamah and her Frank led to a very publicly conducted affair that scandalized Oak Park, Illinois. Shunned by society, haunted by the press, the lovers decamped to Paris in 1909, leaving behind their spouses and children. They lived abroad for a year. Scholars have relegated Mamah to a footnote in the long, tumultuous life of America's greatest architect.

Loving Frank is based on years of solid research that has unearthed letters, diary entries,  and newspaper headlines.  With remarkable restraint and great sensitivity, Nancy Horan has blended the known facts with novelistic imagination to create a compelling narrative of a dramatic, ultimately tragic love story.  Rich in period detail, the story is told in Mamah's voice and vividly portrays the conflicts of a woman struggling to reconcile the roles of wife, mother, lover, and intellectual one hundred years ago.
Please join us for the May discussion. ~ Ann & Traude
Links

Brief Biography of Frank Lloyd Wright
Taliesin - Slide show
Chicago Landmarks
Save Wright (Preservation)
Frank Lloyd Wright & Mamah Cheney]
The Edwin Cheney house - photos with Nancy Horan
Discussion Divisions


---Part One --    May 1st-May 10th
---Part Two --   May 11th-May 21st
---Part Three -- May 22nd-May 31st

Questions to Consider ~Part Three

1. Do you think that Edwin Cheney's agreeing to a divorce was admirable under the circumstances;
and were the  conditions he set for visitations equitable? 

2. How did Mamah take the children's initial shyness when Edwin brought them to the camp in Canada?

3. How could Mamah not have been embarrassed by the crude words of the workers outside the house the morning after her arrival (even though they didn't know she was there with Frank)? 
What did it cost her emotionally to realize that the people in Spring Green rejected their lifestyle and despised her?

4. Is it possible that Mamah did not foresee that the scandal might erupt again once the press discovered them together?  But even if she had, would she have made a different choice?

5. Was Frank effective in dealing face to face with the members of the paper when they came up to the house? Did anything change?

6. After the break with Ellen Key, who had reprimanded her for leaving the children,  without even a moderate income of her own, what or whom could Mamah count on? 
Did she have reason to feel betrayed when Ellen Key preferred the translation by Mr. Heubsch (variously printed as Huebsch) ?  Is fate closing in ?


Discussion Leaders:  Ann & Traude




Mrs.Sherlock, of course ! Edwin and Catherine would have been a perfect match -- if they had loved each other! Thank you for your input.

Edwin loved Mamah (I too stumble every time I type the nme!), and Catherine loved Frank Wright.  
He and Catherine met at a dance in Chicago when she was 16 and they fell head over heels in love. But Anna Wright, fiercely possessive, had moved house with Frank's sisters and came to Chicago as well.  From then ones she  always lived close to him, except for the year he spent in Europe.  

What he accomplished is astonishing,  given the fact that he didn't have much of an education. He had been a farmhand for his uncle for several summers;  in his senior year dropped out of high school.  He attended the University of Wisconsin for one year, and that was it. In 1889 He went to Chicago, disregarding his mother's protests.  Eagle-eyed Anna took it upon herself to warn Catherine's parents who packed her off some place for some time.  It was no use. Two years later they were married. Anna made Catherine's life hellish.

For her he built the house in Oak Park to which he added and made changes for years. Catherine was as devoted to him as Edwin was to Mamah. I believe both Catherine and Edwin behaved with great dignity.  One has to feel sorry for both.  Not to give Frank the  divorce was Catherine's only weapon. As the years went by she may have realized that if she were to give him a divorce, he would cut off alimony and support for the children. Doubtless it was also revenge.  And Mamah's lofty ideas that all would be well in the end, everybody would sit around the table conversing in harmony, was totally unrealistic.

To the questions.
1. The relationship between the lovers was not always smooth and became rockier as Mamah discovered the mounting debt and found out that the "little people", suppliers, draftsmen and handy men, had not been paid.
He charmed his creditors.
2. I believe Frank was less concerned with Mamah's anguish over the attacks by the press than his own anger.
The irony is, of course, that Taliesin did not bring them peace, quite the contrary.  They were hounded even by the people in Spring Green. When Frank brought her back from Berlin he just planted her in the unfinished house ostensibly to cook for the 36  (!) men who were building Taliesin without introducing her in any way (!!). But her true identity came out soon enough.

3. I can't think of an answer to this question because I can't imagine myself in Mamah's situation.

5. Yes, I felt pity for Edwin.

6. Mamah was deeply affected by Mattie's death.  And she lost Lizzie's admiration and affection !

7. I do not believe Mamah had an alcohol or  drug problem.

Here is what Ken Burns said about FLW:

"At some point, you have to forgive Frank Lloyd Wright for his excesses, his ego, his sensitivities, his horrible relations with his kids, and realize, on balance, that here was an extraordinary contribution to human history."

The prairie house style was his invention and - to his anger -  it was widely imitated. It as his concept of an "organic" house that harmoniously fits into and becomes part of the landscape, and is characterized by broad horizontal lines,  a low roof, and an open interior.
When we had the discussion of FL, we lingered over a thick library tome, borrowed from the library, of his major
works. And we would have liked to stay much longer.  

mrssherlock

  • Posts: 2007
Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #81 on: May 22, 2009, 09:12:36 AM »
If you remember what book had all his projects I'd love to look it up.  His Oak Park  home is portrayed in a 20-page softcover publication I got from the library.  Beautiful pictures of th3e house and its floor plans;,it includes a picture of the whole Lloyd-Jones clan. 

The Women seemed like a a good companion to this so I've started it.  T C Boyle's Talk Talk was engrossing and he lives in FLW's first California house so he felt drawn to this story.  Olgivanna was in her mid 20's when she encountered FLW and was immediately swept away!
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

Aberlaine

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #82 on: May 22, 2009, 09:25:29 AM »
"FLW and his works are part of my art history background and I am a fan of his work.  As a person he was known to be difficult.  I think I will pass on his love life. It is possible to admire the artist without being interested in the personal. I find that is often true for me in these discussion which often center on just that."  Reply #66

I agree with Claire.  When I separate FLW's architectural skill from his personality, I can admire him.  I would have loved to have him build a home for me.  I love the lines of his houses and the fact that they're made of brick.

joangrimes

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #83 on: May 22, 2009, 09:51:16 AM »
Aberlaine,  I also agree with Claire about separating FLW's personal life from his skill as an architect.  I really admire his work.  I would loved to have had one of his houses also. His houses have always appealed to me.

WE have one of his houses here in Alabama.  I visited it a couple of years ago and really enjoyed it. I had previously visited one in Chicago.  However I like this one in Alabama much more than the one in Chicago.

I have photos of the one in Alabama that I will try upload today sometime.  I will put links to the photos here in this discussion.

Joan Grimes
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maryz

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2009, 02:26:38 PM »
Joan, the Rosenbaum house in Decatur, AL, is definitely one of FLW's more liveable houses.  We've visited there twice, and would love to go again sometime.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

joangrimes

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #85 on: May 22, 2009, 10:46:52 PM »
Here is a link to the house showing photos.I did not upload mine after I found these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenbaum_House

Mary the Rosembam house is the one I was talking about but it is in Florence, AL not Decatur, AL.

I really enjoyed my visit to that house.

Joan Grimes
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maryz

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #86 on: May 22, 2009, 11:29:29 PM »
Thanks for the correction, Joan - I knew it was one of those two towns. ::)
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2009, 08:21:19 AM »
Here is a link to the "Bootleg Houses" that Wright designed and built near his home in Oak Park.   This is when he was taking on jobs behind Louis Sullivan's back.  I am assuming that they still stand.

http://www.oprf.com/flw/Bootleg.html

Also, here is a link about a subdivision still intact that was inspired by Frank Lloyd Wright.  This is in Worthington, OH, which is part of Columbus, OH, my hometown.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040829/news_mz1h29wright.html

The couple who wanted to build it went to Talisen West to talk to Wright about this project that was just in their creative minds.  He encouraged them to return to Ohio, buy the land needed and to find a Wright inspired student to help in the design.  
Rush Creek has become a place that folks would like to live.  The houses are quite small but someone said to me that with open design of the inside plus the many windows which makes one feel that they are outside, she did not feel its smallness.
My husband and I have watched the movie about Rush Creek which is pretty good. Its available from our public library.

http://www.worthington.org/about/rushcreek.cfm

I am still trying to remember the name of the book that I brought home from the library.  Back later!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2009, 08:49:05 AM »
I hope you will look at Rush Creek as all of the homes were designed by a Wright influenced architect here in Columbus.  He speaks of this in the movie we watched.  There is a plethora of links on the Rush Creek Village site pertaining to questions asked about the community.

JoanP,
Once you asked me about Frank Lloyd Wright authoring books.  This is what I found at our library under Frank Lloyd Wright-author
http://catalog.columbuslibrary.org/?

I am interested in this one, The Field Guide to 100 of his houses and have reserved it.

The library comments: "Admirers of the architect's designs can easily plan visits to various sites with the help of this guide to 100 of his greatest works. Includes information on the history and design of each building."


q=author:Frank%20Lloyd%20Wright
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2009, 01:23:54 PM »
Quote
The power, the sway he held over her is actually frightening.


You know, I'm beginning to change my mind about FLW's power over Mamah after reading Part Three, Traude.   He made his own plans, did his own thing - and if she wanted to come along with him, fine.  But I don't see him as a swengali anymore after reading Horan's book.

Aberlaine,  Claire  - I find that FLW's personal life and  his skill as an architect were part and parcel of the whole man - impossible to separate the two.  His focus was completely on his art - everything else, his loves, his finances, his family - everything, everyone else were expected to bow to his genius.  That's just who he was.  I think everyone around him accepted that.

I can't figure out why Mamah, an ardent feminist,  put up with him -  Because she loved him? Understood him?  Was she like him?     Maybe because he respected her - maybe because he understood her need to be her own person - and let her be.

 He didn't force her to stay with him.  But imagine returning to the States and moving to Taliesin, still a work in progress - and serving as the  cook for the work crew in her heavy work boots - shunned by everyone - especially Madame Wright, who refused to enter the same house with her.  

Jackie, Bruce ordered the same Ken Burns' film from Netflix - we watched it two nights ago.  May-muh was certainly more than "a footnote" to Wright's life.  All of the scholars commented that she was the love of his life - that he never got over her - even though he married two more times after her death.  What I found moving - he had requested that he be buried in his family plot right next to Mamah - matching pine box, flowers from her garden.  I'm not sure where his other wives were buried.

I had no idea that her death, and the death of Martha and John - were so gruesome.  I was expecting the fire, but certainly not the ax murder!  It's a wonder Wright rebuilt Taliesin - and continued to live there after that!

I'm eager to look at some of these links, Annie.  The Ken Burns' show spent much time on Falling Water - and - oh, the magnificent Guggenheim in NYC!  But there was quite a long period before interest in his Prairie style houses was rekindled.   I think you'd enjoy the film - his life after Mamah.

I would like to know if the Midway Gardens still exists in Chicago. FLW was working on that when Mamah was so brutally murdered.


mrssherlock

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2009, 01:49:03 PM »
Joan:  I agree with you that there is no separation between the elements of FLW's personna.  The artist is the the man  T C Boyle's The Women is intorduced by FLW's words:  Early in life I had to choose between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility; I chose arrogance. With the mothering he must have had how could he not have been arrogant given his obvious and facile genius?  The return to Lloyd-Jones valley where he could be surrounded by family and sycophants , where the h oi polloi had no power to do more than sneer, how his spirit must have trembled in rightous joy.  Honest arrogance indeed. 
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2009, 05:56:01 PM »
Honest arrogance, that's my cup of tea!  Hahahaha!  I love it!
In "The Women", T C Boyle tells a story about the second fire which is claimed to have been set up and started by FLW. This story is in the beginning of the book section about Mamah.  (May Maw??? or May Ma or Mama or  Ma Maw??? ) How would one find out the truth about that second fire???

JoanP,
I saw the Ken Burns movie on PBS a few years ago and that's where I heard about the fire and deaths of the 7 people.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Judyg

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #92 on: May 23, 2009, 06:56:16 PM »
This is my first time to post something on the site.  Our book club read this book, LOVING FRANK, last year and enjoyed it immensely.  I personally connected them to my great gradmother, who left her husband about 1912 to run off with another man.  She left three children and a doting husband.  After we read the book, many of us watched the Ken Burns piece on Frank Lloyd Wright.  He was a genius, but not someone any of us wished to be involved with.  We were fascinated to learn in the film how his children went into his business.
judyg

ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2009, 08:25:31 PM »
Judyg,
Its nice to hear from someone whose F2F group really enjoyed the book.

I noticed that the books that have been published about FLW were partially written by his two sons.  Did I read that one of them invented--designed?? Lincoln Logs?  Interesting side note.

Was your great-grandmother involved with another man who had charmed her the way FLW charmed Mamah?? Why are we so surprised that things like this happened back in Victorian times???
  
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #94 on: May 23, 2009, 09:49:35 PM »
Judyg, welcome!!!  Without prying, may I ask how your grandmother's children (your parent) coped with their mother's abandonment?  Oh, of course that's prying, isn't it?  We were all aghast that Mamah (May-mah, the book repeatedly reminds us, is the pronunciation) left those adoring children behind.  I wonder what their relationship would have been had they grown to adulthood.

Traudee, I can't get over how fair Edwin was with the visitation rights.  He seems to have had the children's welfare in mind.  I felt sorry for Lizzie - Lizzie and Louise.  This really must have been a loss for the children - when the new Mrs. Cheney let them go.

That was quite a scene - Edwin travelling to Taliesin with FLW to face the gruesome scene.  The children weren't buried with their mother, were they?

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2009, 04:34:59 PM »
Thank you for your post, Judy. It is wonderful to have the time for an in-depth discussion and get all the input.

JoanP, I agree. What happened between Mamah and Frank was elemental, unforced : a mutual, magnetic attraction, and irresistible, at least for her. She preferred Frank's volcanic temperament to the ordinariness of her husband who - heaven help the poor man - was bald!  A personal flaw!  How superficial !!!

FLW had a leonine head but was not a tall man.  It's hard to imagine that the capes he favored enhanced his appearance as much as they would a tall man, like the actor Vincent Price, for example.  Never mind. She thought Frank was dashing. (Beauty in the eye of the beholder...)

Mrs. Sherlock, I don't recall the title of the hefty volume containing FLW's  creations (among them the furniture). But there is plenty of similar material available in libraries, and also on line where color photographs have  been uploaded by visitors of his famous sites,  and some added commentaries.





JoanP

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2009, 11:40:02 AM »
Quote
3. How could Mamah not have been embarrassed by the crude words of the workers outside the house the morning after her arrival (even though they didn't know she was there with Frank)?  
What did it cost her emotionally to realize that the people in Spring Green rejected their lifestyle and despised her?

Nancy Horan had not much more than her imagination in her portrayal of Mamah Cheney's emotional state.  I don't remember much of a reaction from Mamah at these narrow-minded insutls from the unenlightened,  as she would have categoriized them.  What did get to her - her children's strangeness around her as she realized how much of their growing up she had missed, and would continue to miss.  We are told that she felt "replaced" by the new Mrs. Edwin Cheney.  That must have hurt the most.

The other thing that must have thrown her was Ellen Key's reversal -I take it the letter that N. Horan referred to was "real" - - written by Ellen Key's herself - telling Mamah to "return to her children, that the legitimate right of a free love can never be acceptable if enjoyed at the expense of maternal love."
It was Ellen Key's who had initially validated Mamah's decision to be true to her self.

Isn't it a little late for such advice?  Where does this leave Mamah?  Wasn't this contradictory to Ellen's philosophy?  Don't you wonder what is motivating Ellen?  Surely Mamah had told her all about her marriage and children when she met with Ellen in Europe?  What a mess!

ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2009, 05:49:42 PM »
Quote from JoanP:  The other thing that must have thrown her was Ellen Key's reversal -I take it the letter that N. Horan referred to was "real" - - written by Ellen Key's herself - telling Mamah to "return to her children, that the legitimate right of a free love can never be acceptable if enjoyed at the expense of maternal love."
It was Ellen Key's who had initially validated Mamah's decision to be true to her self.

I think that Mamah really didn't know who she was until she became besotted with FLW.  Then we have her liking Ellen Key's philosophy and doing translations of her works.  
I think I said earlier that sometimes we have to remember that there are many kinds of love that we can benefit from in life and one of them is a child's love for his/her mother.  What a full basket one has when loved by one's family.  And to be able to love back!  What more could you ask for?  
I like what Ellen Key wrote to Mamah.  In other words, lady, grow up!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Judyg

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2009, 06:22:43 PM »
We read the book last year and most of us were fed up with him and felt she should have never joined him, especially when her husband gave her the divorce and continued to let her see her children.  The murder/fire was just a horrible, out of the blue shock to us all.

My great grandmother was granted a divorce from her first husband because she was pregnant and he didn't want the child to bear the stigma of being what in those days was a 'bastard'.  He kept my grandmother, and two sisters.  He was significantly older than my great-grandmother and died in a house fire when my grandmother was      9 or 10.  They lived with their maternal grandmother for a bit and then my great-grandmother came and got the three girls and took them to live with her.  I knew none of this until I was well into adulthood.  I knew my great-grandmother and the 'half-aunt'.  That aunt and my grandmother were lots of fun.  I always wondered why my great-grandmother lived with her and not in New Orleans with the two remaining daughters who were much better off financially than their sister in Toledo.  The effects of such a sad situation; my grandmother had little patience for men who were flowery talkers; gamlbers, and ladies who sat and read while they had house work to do.  The first husband, my great grandfather was very wealthy and the second man was a gambler and the family lawyer made off with the money and my grandmother went to work for the telephone company after 8th grade.
judyg

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2009, 06:40:02 PM »
JoanP, Mamah lived only for Frank.  She could not have lived without him.  In 1913 Frank took her to Japan for six months and promptly left her alone there a lot (just as he had done with Catherine years earlier) to obsessively search for prints and other art objects , many of which he bought at a fraction of what they were worth. Then he short-changed and dragged out compensation for his Japanese connection who was his interpreter there.

In LF we are told that  Mamah discovered Fran k's mountainous debt by accident. She confronted Frank when he returned from Chicago. She sat him down. He hung is head and promised to change. She asked him to drive her to the station, and he did.  She went to Chicago and stayed in Oak Park for a few days, went to the house, met Edwin's new wife - who was friendly enough - saw John long enough to take him to an ice cream parlor, and had an awkward conversation with Lizzie. But when Frank appeared on the doorstep she went back, to Taliesin with him.   It is impossible to know whether this episode actually happened, but it is quite plausible.  But was Mamah's head totally in the clouds? Any woman who runs a home would have some idea of household expenses!

Mamah was not the first client's wife whom flirtatious Frank chauffeured through the streets of Oak Park in his yellow sports car, and she knew it. They carried on the affair for five years while both stayed with their married partners. From the very beginning there was only one questioin: whom did she love more?  The children or Frank?

Not to be closer to the children must have been a constant dull ache for her.  But to feel jealous of Edwn's new wife was absurd.  She had made her choice.  Frank was first, the children a distant second.

Imagine that August da of the fire, the ride on the local train from Chicago up to Spring Green, FLW and his son John sharing the same compartment with Edwin, who also had a been alerted by phone,  and a member of the hated press on board! Finding Taliesin still smoldering and the gruesome sight of the murdered needing burial.

Edwin took the remains of his children with him back to Chicago. He and his second wife, a teacher, had three children and led a happy life, according to the record.

Taliesin was rebuilt from the foundation but burned again. Frank started over but that house too burned because of faulty wiring. Frank began anew; the result wasTaliesin III,  which is now a crumbling but still remarkable avatar for tourists from all over the world.   Irretrievably lost in the fire in August 1914 were also the priceless five hundred copies of the Wasmuth monograph, the record of FLW's entire work up to that time.  

JoanP

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #100 on: May 25, 2009, 07:19:16 PM »
Annie, don't you wonder why Ellen K didn't counsel Mamah in Europe - before she took the translating job - and before she went ahead with the divorce from Edwin?  Why wait as she did.  Do you suppose that there is more to EllenK's personal life - involving children, that we don't know about?  Or perhaps her own mother abandonned her.  There seem to be missing pieces to her puzzling behavior.

I'm thinking that  Mamah just didn't want to go  back to Edwin.  And  I agree with others who say that she probably would have left Edwin even if there had been no FLW offering her an out.

Judyg - did your group feel Mamah should have gone back to Edwin?  I felt that she had decided firmly that she did not want to go back - preferred FLW, who let her have more freedom than Edwin ever could.
 We're back to that same question - should a woman stay in a loveless marriage - for the sake of the children?  What do you think?
Whew, Judy, that is a colorful family background - a lot of adaptation went on.  How old were you when began to  learn of the strong women in your family and what they had gone through?  No wonder you had no patience for the likes of Mamah Borthwick Cheney!

Traudee - my heart went out to Lizzie Borthwick.  Not only did she lose those children she loved cared for from birth, she also lost her niece Jessie - and then her sister, Mamah.  I wish we could learn more of her life after all her family was gone.  Once her niece Jessie's last name was mentioned - her father's family were the Pritkens.  Hopefully she got to see her Aunt Lizzing now and then.

I've lost all patience with Mamah - no admiration for her as a suffragette, a strong woman, a feminist...nothing.
But I'm willing to accept FLW - He was what he was - allowed his mother, his sisters, and all women to fawn over him as he pursued his art.  Not saying he was right - just saying that I understood him better..

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #101 on: May 26, 2009, 12:46:56 AM »
JoanP,
"lost all patience with Mamah" you said.  My sentiments exactly.
As for Ellen Key, there isn't much information on her personal life. She came from a wealthy family. Rigid Christian education. Liberl-minded. Very.  She was not married,  never had children.  When Mamah went to see her in Sweden - and that visit did take place - she was alone and apparently lonely, too.

Perhaps Mamah gave greater weight to Ellen's theories referring to "free love" etc. as a justification for her and Frank's actions than to the well-being of the children of such couples, specifically Mamah's own. She loved them but, alas, not enough, not enough.

There's more to say about Frank who had his best work ahead of him at the time, and also about the  end of the architectural era of the prairie houses.  

Judyg, what an intriguing story.  I believe one's family history is worth knowing about, possibly as a cautionary factor, perhaps for something to admire (or abhor), even for amusement - if for nothing else.  

Tomorrow I have a session with the ophthalmologist  grrrrrrrrr but will check in here as soon as the effect of those miserable drops allows is gone. 
  



ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #102 on: May 26, 2009, 09:12:07 AM »
Here are some quotes from FLW concerning Mamah:
Quotes:

Frank, while in Europe with Mamah: "I have never loved Catherine -- my wife -- as she deserved. I have for some years past loved another."
Source: Many Masks: A Life of Frank Lloyd Wright, page 210.

Frank, about Mamah, January, 1912: "... I love the woman who has cast in her lot with me here not wisely but too well. She too has her remunerative work -- as I have. She is quite able to supply her own needs -- and we work together ..."
Source: About Wright: An Album of Recollections by Those Who Knew Frank Lloyd Wright, page 73.

Frank, about not having a monument on Mamah's grave: "All I had left to show for the struggle for freedom of the five years past that had swept most of my former life away had now been swept away. Why mark the spot where desolation ended and began?"
Source: Many Masks, page 233.

Frank, after Mamah's death: "Something strange had happened to me. Instead of feeling that she, whose life had joined mine there at Taliesin, was a spirt near, she was utterly gone!"
Source:An Autobiography, page 211.

Frank's eulogy to Mamah: "To you who have been so invariably kind to us all, I would say something to defend a brave and lovely woman from those who attack her in death as viciously as they did in life. ... We lived frankly and sincerely and we have tried to help others live ... according to their ideals." Frank Lloyd Wright: An Interpretive Biography, page 136-137.

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #103 on: May 26, 2009, 08:51:22 PM »
Thank you, Ann, for posting FLW's quotes.  
There are a great many sources to explore: his own essays on architecture, his autobiography, the writings of biographers and historians, like Meryle Secrest.
Most helpful to me was a slim volume with the title Death in a Prairie House: Frank Lloyd Wright and the Taliesin Murders by William R. Drennan, professor emeritus of English at the University of Wisconsin.

FLW had a host of competitors, "parasitic hacks" he called them, who had stolen his ideas.  According to author Robert C. Twombly, the prairie house design had become "a bandwagon", "everyone was climbing on board, but few recognized FLW as the driver."  Wright was furious. He claimed it was a conspiracy intended to exploit and discredit him. For him it was the end of the prairie style and the "organic house". More than forty-five intense, productive years, praise and fame lay ahead. So were tumultuous entanglements and more scandals, explored in detail in T.V. Boyle's The Women.
Mamah's life was cut short. FLW endured.









maryz

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #104 on: May 26, 2009, 10:13:27 PM »
I haven't read the article yet, but there's a piece on FLW in the June 2009 issue of Smithsonian Magazine.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2009, 08:45:46 AM »
My copy of "A Field Guide to 100 of FLW's designs" is being held at the library.  I will let you know what I think about it.
Did anyone look into the Rush Creek Village site??  Very interesting place to peruse.

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #106 on: May 27, 2009, 12:40:47 PM »
I haven't had a chance to go through the links to other Wright houses yet, Annie.  I got as far as checking to see what had become of the Edwin Cheney house - excited to hear that it had become a bed & breakfast - wouldn't it be fun to experience a Wright house? 

Here's an account from someone who stayed at the B&B -

Quote
The Cheney house is a superb brick house with an intimate quality. This is partly because the main living area is elevated and obscured behind a walled terrace on the street side. The partially sunken lower level was originally designed as a garage, but the city council vetoed it over concerns of gasoline fumes catching the house on fire. The lower level was re-designed as a separate apartment for Mrs. Cheney's sister. Most recently the lower level was divided into two B&B suites. Special features include art glass window and lamps. In addition to a few original pieces, the current owner has turned the house into a personal FLW museum with a broad array of FLW-designs such as a Midway Gardens table and chairs on the terrace, FLW books and FLW videos galore.

Everyone should have the opportunity for an authentic Frank Lloyd Wright experience and ours was here in July 2001. I have heard many stories of how many Frank Lloyd Wright buildings have leaky roofs and just as many cavalier quotes from the master himself on why that is so. But it wasn't until our stay at the Cheney house B&B that we had experienced it first hand.

We were awakened by an early morning thunderstorm and the sound of running water. I ran out of the bedroom to find water streaming across the rafters and cascading onto the Wright-designed dining room table. We used all of the towels in the house to mop up the water and threw them in the bathtub. Upon closer inspection it was clear from water damage to the ceiling that this was not the first time that this has happened. We also noticed that the gutters around the perimeter of the house were down. In discussing the situation with the current owner he described that he wanted heavy duty bracing installed on the gutters when he was having them repaired but was overruled because that wasn't how Mr. Wright designed them.

The Cheney house is no longer operated as a B&B, apparently because the neighbors were not very happy about it. As Ernest Hemingway once characterized his hometown Oak Park, "Broad lawns and narrow minds."


JoanP

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #107 on: May 27, 2009, 12:46:04 PM »
Don't you wonder where Mamah Cheney got the nerve to take off with Frank?  This is before she met Ellen Keys.  Someone must have inspired her.  I remember reading in Loving Frank  that people were gossiping about her - saying that she read Ibsen.

Apparently the Norwegian playright was quite controversial at the time - especially his most famous play, "A Doll's House."  I've been reading about the play and concluded that he is describing "Mamah Cheney's House" - to a T.

I thought this was interesting -

Quote
A major German actress refused to play the final scene of the play, in which Nora leaves her husband and family to discover her own ideas. For the first production of the play in Germany, Ibsen was forced to write an alternative ending for it to be considered acceptable. In this ending, Nora is led to her children after having argued with Torvald. Seeing them, she collapses, and the curtain is brought down. Ibsen later called the ending a disgrace to the original play. Ibsen hated this changed ending, referring to it as a 'barbaric outrage'.

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #108 on: May 27, 2009, 02:47:24 PM »
maryz, thank you for mentioning the article "The Triumph of Frank Llod Wright" in the Smithsonian Magazine. I believe it is an excellent evaluation of his work.  Inevitably, some of FLW's domestic woes are mentioned in it as well.

They began in 1914, not long after Mamah's death, with Miriam Noel, an artist with a dubious past, a morphine addict. Their relationship was turbulent and fraught with altercations and violence. Even so,  once free at last from Catherine in 1922, FLW married Miriam in 1923. She left him a few months later but filed lawsuits against him and made his life (and Olgivanna's)  miserable for a few more years before she gave him a divorce, whereupon he married Olgivanna. (She was thirty-some years his junior.)

Ann, I like the pictures of the Rush Creek Village but couldn't find when it was built. It must be from Frank's early prairie house period, I imagine.

JoanP, Ibsen  (*1828) was not understood nor appreciated in his native Norway. He went to Italy for some years, then went to Germany where he wrote "A Doll's House" in 1879. At that time a wife's traditional role was at home as mother, home maker, hostess, an adornment for her husband. Nora's husband treated her like a child, chided her for pending too much money on Christmas presents, and belittled her.
Surely Mamah's and Edwin's life before the elopement was nothing like that.





ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #109 on: May 27, 2009, 05:19:47 PM »
Traude,
Rush Creek was built in the 1950's after the couple who started it went to FLW's Talisen West to get his advice and to take classes from him.  They told them about their dream and he advised them to return to home to Columbus, OH and buy the land on which to start their own home and to build others.  The architect was a FLW student or was inspired by FLW's architecture and he designed all the homes in that small subdivision.  Each family has around an acre of land.

I must now go to the Smithsonian mag's article.  Thanks Mary Z! 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #110 on: May 27, 2009, 05:31:31 PM »
Ann, thanks so much.  The pictures are beautiful, stunning, really. :)

JoanP

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #111 on: May 30, 2009, 11:56:50 AM »
Quote
6. After the break with Ellen Key, who had reprimanded her for leaving the children,  without even a moderate income of her own, what or whom could Mamah count on?  
Did she have reason to feel betrayed when Ellen Key preferred the translation by Mr. Heubsch (variously printed as Huebsch) ?


There are still so many unanswered questions about Mamah Cheney - I am finding  it difficult to move on to admire FLW's architecture after her death.  This will probably be the last time I will ever  examine Mamah's life - in connection with Taliesin and Frank Lloyd Wright.  Perhaps her sole importance in history will be the fact that she attempted to pursue her own happiness at all costs - including  the abandonment of her children.  There are still people who believe as Frank and Mamah did - that chidlren need happy parents around them.  If Mamah believed that her marriage to Edwin "wasn't right"- then the children would be better off without her. Do you believe a mother is ever justified doing this for her own selfish reasons?  I've concluded no, never.  Once she becomes a mother, her number one priority is no longer herself, it is her children. IMO.

The next question - was Mamah really betrayed by Ellen Key?  Ellen seems to have been both surprised and appalled to learn that Mamah had left the children to Edwin - for Frank.  Perhaps this is why she changed her mind about translators.  The fact that Mamah now has no income is really not Ellen's problem, is it? - It is Mamah's.
If Mamah was familiar with Ellen's work, how could she not have known Ellen's strong views about the mother's position in the family -
Quote
"In the future, she stated, women will enjoy the same rights as men in both the family and society. And, she argued, women must exercise these rights in order to turn society in a more nurturing direction, since women have a natural capacity for care and nurturing that men often lack. "
" According to Key, women lived in a period of transition, in the gap between what she called two "consciousnesses." If women chose to enter the labor market under the same conditions as men, there was a risk that the woman-type might change, become more "masculine," which would be devastating for future society. Key was very critical of the women's rights movement in Sweden.   Ellen Key 1849-1926


straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #112 on: May 30, 2009, 01:26:41 PM »
JOANP, thank you for your post.   I was working on one of my own but it went off accidentally and amending wasn't satisfactory. So I deleted the message in toto and am glad I did because in the meanwhile you posted yours.

I  started my (unsent) message by saying that we have come to the end of our allotted time and
yet to put a CODA on the discussion - a conclusion of sorts.  It's something necessary for me -- but not easy in this case. As JoanP  indicated, many questions remain, questions that are not  answerable.

In the course of the discussion we already brought to the fore the major stumbling block:  Mamah's abandoning her children. One hundred years later,  this gives women pause. And for good reason.

We'll never know whether this was the Great Passion for Mamah and Frank (it may have been for Mamah), or a mid-life crisis for either, or both.  From all indications in this book, however,  it was REAL and more serious for Mamah than it was for Frank.  The relationship was real enough - to the detriment of especially Mamah's innocent children, who died with her.

In the blazing light of FLW's fame,  Mamah's story needed to be told, and I applaud Nancy Horan for doing so,  and for showing that Mamah was a person, not just a footnote.



  

ANNIE

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #113 on: May 30, 2009, 05:21:02 PM »
Traude,
I agree with you about Nancy Horan's attempt to show Mamah as certainly worth while as anyone and deserving of a book about her short time on earth.  But I  leave you with other reminders from the different books and links that we used here.

1.  Ellen Key's change of mind and her telling Mamah to go home to her children as nothing could replace maternal love for those children but Mamah.

2. FLW's quotes after Mamah's death

a.  Frank, after Mamah's death: "Something strange had happened to me. Instead of feeling that she, whose life had joined mine there at Taliesin, was a spirt near, she was utterly gone!"
Source:An Autobiography, page 211.


b.  Frank, about not having a monument on Mamah's grave: "All I had left to show for the struggle for freedom of the five years past that had swept most of my former life away had now been swept away. Why mark the spot where desolation ended and began?"
Source: Many Masks, page 233.

c.  And Frank's eulogy to Mamah: "To you who have been so invariably kind to us all, I would say something to defend a brave and lovely woman from those who attack her in death as viciously as they did in life. ... We lived frankly and sincerely and we have tried to help others live ... according to their ideals." Frank Lloyd Wright: An Interpretive Biography, page 136-137.

I feel after reading the two books,  "Loving Frank" and "The Women"  that maybe Frank really did love her in his own way as he exudes in these quotes.  She certainly thought so.

Thanks JoanP, and Traude,
This has been a delightful discussion among friends and tomorrow it all ends.  But, I know that I have enjoyed it.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: Loving Frank (Lloyd Wright) ~ Nancy Horan ~ May 1st
« Reply #114 on: May 31, 2009, 01:16:46 PM »
Many thanks, Annie, for the valuable quotes and for having taken us on a rewarding journey through Loving Frank.

Rewarding because it led us to realize that Mamah Cheney's agonizing quandary was by no means unique, but that untold women in the century since have  had to make choices under similar circumstances,  so that, indeed,  the initial question of whether the issue is still relevant today can be answered in the affirmative.

Mamah was repudiated by a disapproving society.  Today, a century later,  her actions may not have caused societal outrage or repudiation.  After all, we live in an era of global 'enlightenment'  where 'anything goes',  'openness' is flaunted,  prurience encouraged,  sex advertized,  and ethical values put to the test.   But I submit that even now it isn't any easier for a woman to face the elemental, excruciating choice of  going either with the lover or staying with the children. After all, nurturing is a woman's  primal instinct.

FLW lived another fifty years or so after Mamah's death and reached the zenith in his profession.  Let us hope that he did continue to cherish Mamah for what she had brought to his life.

My gratitude to all who read and posted in this discussion.
Traude