Dead Wake by Erik Larson - October Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Dead Wake
by Erik Larson

"Few tales in history are more haunting, more tangled with investigatory mazes or more fraught with toxic secrets than that of the final voyage of the Lusitania, one of the colossal tragedies of maritime history. It’s the other Titanic, the story of a mighty ship sunk not by the grandeur of nature but by the grimness of man." - ~ New York Times.

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

Week 1: to "Lusitania a Cavalcade of Passengers" p.89
Week 2: to "Lusitania: Helpful Young Ladies: p.191
Week 3: to "All Points Rumor p. 279
Week 4: to end p.353

For Your Consideration:

1. Theodate Pope: architect, social reformer, spiritualist, feminist, important early supporter of the Impressionist painters. Do any of you know today of anyone with such a wide range of interests and influence? Is it possible today?

2. "Ships do have personalities" What personality would you give the Lusitania? the U20?

3. Have you heard of the Arts and Crafts movement? Elbert Hubbard?

4. "Captain Hall saw that his new scheme for mystifying and misleading the enemy was beginning to have an effect" What effect did it have on our two ships?

5. President Wilson "was now a man in love." Might he have reacted more forcefully to earlier transgressions by the Germans if not distracted? Might it have made a difference?

6. Captain Turner delayed the start of the voyage: that few minutes made a difference. Is it fair to criticize him for this, as some did?

7. The U-boat crew had to run from one end to the other to keep the boat from disaster. Were you surprised at how primitive yet effective they were?

8. CONSPIRACT THEORISTS AHOY! Room 40 knew the sub and Lusitania were in the same area. they had destroyers near-bye that had just finished escorting another ship, and could have escorted L. but nothing was done. Was it deliberate? Pros and cons.
 

"It took more persistance than I thought, but I finally found it: dead wake is "the trail of a fading disturbance in the water"- PATH

Discussion Leaders:  Ella & JoanK

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Oh my, I feel like Sleeping Beauty who has just awoken and realized my ship has set sail.  I have had a pretty busy beginning of Oct., but will try to catch up. 

"And then there was Putin". - Halcyon 

He certainly is making some pretty bold moves in the past few weeks.  It is a model of the game of Risk I played with my sons and hubby while they were growing up, and then with my grandson just a year ago.  I was trying to explain to my 13 yr. old grandson how rulers, dictators and presidents make some small moves, and some big moves in successfully conquering regions. Wilson and Obama remind me of Nero...... "fiddling while Rome burns."

Okay I'll try to spend some time reading today.  I know I'll never catch up to all these posts especially the lengthy ones, but at least I am on board!!   

[ANNIE]

I became interested in architect, Theodate Pope.  So here is a link to her history, which lets us know that she was rescued from the Lusitania as she sailed on her as a single woman.
First she was saved but thought unconscious and then dead!!! The rescuers first took her to the morgue as they thought she was s goner!!

http://www.hillstead.org/about-us/family-history/

[PatH]

Oh, good, Bellamarie, I wondered if you had gotten seasick.

I'm still on board too, though I thought for a bit I'd been sunk.  I've been traveling, and one of my suitcases was lost--the one with the book in it.  But it's been found, so I'm all right again. 

[PatH]

Interesting, Pope continued her career after marriage.  Look at her wedding outfit.  Could anyone look good in those styles?

[BarbStAubrey]

Just a quicky - early on the author included a bit about safety matches - how many remember when a match was something that could be lit but a quick flick of the the thumb which is how most lit the match to light their cigarette or pipe and even the kindling that started a fire. I am thinking today all matches are safety matches because it has been years since I could light a match by sliding it along the stove top burner.

[ANNIE]

That was called a kitchen match, Barb and they still are sold.  A safety match is the enclosed one in the fold-over holder.
Yes, PatH, I noticed that Pope earned an architect's license for the state of NY in 1933. She had been designing houses and schools for many years before that happened.  Just 13 yrs before she died. 

[JoanK]

TIME TO MOVE ON TO THE NEXT SECTION, starting with "A cavalcade of passengers" and going to (not through) "Helpful young Ladies."

I'll get the questions in the heading as soon as I make them up. But Annie just led into what was going to be the first one:

Theodate Pope: architect, social reformer, spiritualist, important early supporter of the Impressionist painters. Do any of you know today of anyone with such a wide range of interests and influence? Is it possible today?

[JoanK]

The questions are up. Let's talk about other things first: then we can convene trial of the Brits. for their part.

[Jonathan]

'Theodate Pope: architect, social reformer, spiritualist, important early supporter of the Impressionist painters.'

Getting to know some of the passengers on the Lusitania adds so much interest to the tragedy. Theodate Pope was certainly a remarkable character and it was interesting to get more information about her in the link. Thanks, Ann. Including a list of a dozen  'significant achievments'. Well, it would have been a dozen if her surviving the Lusitania sinking had been included. No doubt it was the most memorable thing she ever experienced. As a spiritualist she might have known what lay ahead for her when she boarded the ship?

Was it too complicated for the spirit world to know just what would happen? Did they know in Room 40, for that matter. There's a lot of fog around. I'm curious about the evidence that would come up in a trial of the Brits. I'm struck by the author's impression regarding all the facts: a 'convergence of disparate forces.' p118

Welcome aboard the doomed ship, Bellamarie. This could be the most unusual book you will ever read.

And aren't we all wondering about Putin's moves in the middle east. One can hardly blame him for wanting to help resolve a problem on his doorstep. To put an end to the chaos.

[JoanK]

JONATHAN "a 'convergence of disparate forces"

yes. this section is like a Greek tragedy, the ships coming closer and closer, at each point we can see ways it could have happened differently, but it doesn't.

[Ella Gibbons]

Such fascinating posts.  THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INTEREST IN OUR BOOK OF THE MONTH!

Erik Larson has topped it this time!   Have you read his other books?

NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING!

Ships and personalities!  Isn't that an interesting thought.

But its true, I think, don't you?

And the passengers - Alfred Vanderbilt - think - the Biltmore estate, Gloria Vanderbilt (mother of Anderson Cooper, anchor on CNN.  What does that name suggest to you?

Alfred paid for two tickets in cash, what would amount to $22,000 today.  I can't get my head around that! 

How to describe the personality of the Lusitania?

[bellamarie]

Thank you Jonathan, I am enthralled with just the pages I have managed to get to so far with trying to catch up.  I have never been a person who cared much for history or happenings before my time, and this is so interesting and intriguing I can't seem to put the book down, or shall I say my ipad.  I am up to Menagerie.  I hope to catch up to all of you today.

Imagine living in the close quarters of a submarine.  I get claustrophobic sitting in airplanes, and the one time I went on a casino cruise ship out into International waters in Florida.  I remember traveling with my family going to Virginia beach and we went through an underwater Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, and I had to keep myself from having an anxiety attack, and that only took minutes.  A submarine having to stay on the ocean floor to keep from being attacked would have just done me in.   

[JoanP]

 It isn't difficult to compare the personalities of the two ships - considering the claustrophobic conditions living on the U-20 and the freedoms aboard the Lusitania. I'm thinking now of all those children allowed to skip freely around the Lus. decks without parental supervision - their parents unaware of any danger, while the U-20 crew lurked below the sea, on the watch for any vessel they might encounter and take down.

Spent the day in flight to sunny - and hot,  San Diego, so I missed the conversation on the first question about Ms. Theodate Pope.  What a name!  Had you ever heard of it before?  Is it a feminine form of Theodore, I wonder?

And what a gal!  To understand her many accomplishments, I think we have to remember the women's movement back in the early 20th century in which it was not unusual for a woman to succeed as an artist (an architect), a supporter of other artists, a social reformer -  a feminist in particular.  Not so sure about the spiritualist though.  Wouldn't you love to have a conversation with her?

Here's an article about such women in the early 20th century:

http://www.enotes.com/topics/feminism/critical-essays/women-early-mid-20th-century-1900-1960

[JoanK]

JOANP:  interesting. " The advent of the new [20th] century did witness a change in the style and content of women's writing, as well as an increase in the depiction of feminine images and themes in literature."

We associate feminism with the 60s, 70s and forget these earlier women.

[JoanK]

And we also have Elbert Hubbard. My mother always talked about him, saying only that he thought we all should eat "yogurt and black strap molasses." Does anyone have other memories of him?

[Ella Gibbons]

Welcome BELLE! 

And JOANK, I had never heard of Elbert Hubbard before; how did your Mother?  Did she read his book?   And Theodate Pope?  Never. Before our time.

As JOANP pointed out in the article she posted WWI brought women out of the home and into industry, paychecks, and they never really went back into housekeeping and the like.  Women got the vote in 1920 - they were equal!

WWII furthered the role of women; terrible to think that it took wars to bring women equality.

Isn't our author good at keeping the book suspenseful even though we know the ending?






 

[bellamarie]

Oh my I thought I was seeing things when I read this....   

One soldier in the Ypres Salient, at Messines, Belgium, wrote of the frustration of the trench stalemate.  "We are still in our old positions, and keep annoying the English and French.  The weather is miserable and we often spend days on end knee-deep in water and, what is more, under heavy fire.  We are greatly looking forward to a brief respite.  Let's hope that soon afterwards the whole front will start moving forward.  Things can't go on like this for ever."  The author was a German infantryman of Austrian descent named Adolf Hitler.

Adolf Hitler, who thirty years later becomes the leader of the Nazi party, Chancellor of Germany, and the rest is history.

I am simply amazed at how so many people simply disregarded the warnings of the danger ahead.  So, I can't help but ask....What do you think you would have done if you were booked to set sail on the Lusitania, May 1, 1915, knowing the warnings were in the papers and discussing everywhere?  Would you have boarded that ship? 

My answer would be a resounding, NO!  I am not the least bit a risk taker, I watch weather reports before leaving to drive three hours away from my home.  I want to travel to Europe in the next few years, but question the unrest in the country.  Maybe I am an overthinker, or just have insecurities and fears.  Whatever, it has kept me safe thus far. 

[Jonathan]

'Whatever, it has kept me safe thus far.'

I'm charmed by your honesty, Bellamarie. I can relate to your fears somewhat. I could never go spelunking. I've done the Chesapeake tunnel several times and it did seem to take forever. At times like that I find myself singing: 'Thro' many dangers, toils and snares, I have already come; 'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far, And grace will  lead me home.' I'm okay on elevators, if I have company. On the other hand, I'm thrilled by stormy weather.

There must have been a lot of fear at the thought of crossing the Atlantic after war was declared. I've just finished reading a most interesting obituary in today's newspaper. The subject was born in England, in 1911. His father, a Canadian, headed up a steamship line, while resident in London.

'When the First World War broke out, three-year Tony and his mother, and all but one of his siblings returned to Toronto. On the voyage home they wore life-jackets at all times because of the danger of submarines.' (Globe and Mail)

And it gets more interesting. Tony grew up to be a naval commander in WWII. The obit continues with: 'He was in Halifax for the surrender of at least one U-boat, remarking that the German submariners were relieved their war was over.'

No doubt there were many on the Lusitania made fearful by the prospect of a submarine attack. Many passenger ships had been taken out of service by nervous owners.

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE, JONATHAN: I'm with you. No enclosed spaces for me.

Interesting obit! I'll bet whatever passenger ships were left went out of service after L went down.

[JoanK]

When we've read the section, I'd like to start a mock trial of room 40. Who wants to be lawyer for the defense? For the prosecution?

[Ella Gibbons]

OH, GOOD IDEA, JOANK!

Let me give it some thought! 

[Ella Gibbons]

THE SHORT VIEW OR THE LONG VIEW OF THE STRATEGY OF ROOM 40!

Who will defend - Who will prosecute their decision as to the Lusitania?

Certainly commanders have had to make decisions in time of war such as this!

Strategies in war.  I would never, never want to make decisions such as this, but they have to be made. 

So am still pondering! 

[ANNIE]

For those who might be interested here's a link to the story of the world's first submarine attack: 
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/worlds-first-submarine-attack


The Turtle???  Amazing stories are available of the development of submarines on the Net.  Wow!  From wood and one man powered to nuclear powered. 

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, ANN, for that article - AHA, we tried in 1776 but failed.

But ROOM 40?  They knew, they knew the Lusitania was in harm's way; chose to do nothing.  I'm hiring an investigator to look into it all and will be back when he presents evidence.

[BarbStAubrey]

My take is like it or not to a small fraction of the population the greater concern is the safety of a nation - they assumed there would be an attack that by having this secret up their sleeve they could win or at least thwart Germany to save Britain where as if the Lusitania was alerted the cat would be out of the bag - radio silence had to be observed since the Germans could at the time just as we could pick up radio transmissions. The population is always at risk during a war - here of late we call it Unintended Collateral Damage.

How many times as a kid were you punished along with the rest of the class or even along with a sister or brother for something you did not do or you were not even a part of - you were in the wrong place at the wrong time - the Lusitania was in the wrong place at the wrong time and to warn them meant Britain giving away one of its few defenses. 

[PatH]

I haven't gotten to this section's chapter on room 40 yet, so I'll take things in order.

Ella, thanks for the story of the Turtle.  Goodness, the descriptions in this section certainly reinforce my lack of enthusiasm for submarines.  Not only might you slowly suffocate to death in the dark, at the bottom of the sea, you might have a faster death writhing in agony from chlorine gas poisoning in the dark at the bottom of the sea.  No thank you.

The book isn't very clear about where the chlorine comes from.  It's not from the sulfuric acid (that's not possible) it's from the salt in sea water.  If the batteries get submerged in seawater, they electrolyze the salt.

Even under normal conditions, they produce hydrogen gas, which is a huge explosion hazard, and has to be gotten rid of by the air system.

[JoanK]

I missed the chlorine, but did you notice that it said the turtle was hand-powered? Men turning some kind of wheel?

[JoanK]

In collecting evidence, don't forget about "motive." A possible motive is revealed at the end of this weeks' section.

[Ella Gibbons]

Hi PATH.    I agree with you about submarines and wonder how the captains of these dangerous submarines got crews or kept them!  Was it the adventure of the journey?  Or were they drafted into it?

We're waiting for you to catch up and the others - where are you in this book?   Are we going too slow or too fast? 

Thanks, BARBARA, that's part of the defense of Room 40's decision - "the greater concern is the safety of a nation - they assumed there would be an attack that by having this secret up their sleeve they could win or at least thwart Germany to save Britain where as if the Lusitania was alerted the cat would be out of the bag

[bellamarie]

I was surprised to read that the first poisonous gases were used in WW1.  Here is a bit of information of which ones were used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I

Room 40 reminds me of the central command room they use today, where many things are known, discussed and kept from the departments who need to know for the safety of Americans.  Not to get political but Benghazi comes to mind.  They knew there was going to be an attack on our embassy, yet decided for whatever reasons to not evacuate, as other embassies did before the attack.  History reminds me of the Bible, whether it is the old or new testament, or whether it is 1800's, 1900's or present date, repeatedly the same mistakes are made, the same hidden agendas for political gain or what ever reason.  We are a world who just does not ever seem to really learn from our mistakes.

Ella, I am up to Frustration pg, 262 on my ipadAir.  I should finish the assigned chapters bringing me to pg. 290 by tomorrow. 

[JoanK]

OK, my prosecutor it out for blood! He's not just accusing Room 40 of failing to notify L. He's accusing them of deliberately luring U-boats to the area so that L. would be sunk.

In detective stories, we look for motive, means, and opportunity.

MOTIVE: is discussed at the end of this section. Churchill was really desparate for the US to enter the war, and our book discusses memoranda that were fgound later saying it would be a good thing if neutral ships entered sub -infested waters and better if one came to grief (I don't have my book here: i:ll give the exact quote later. the lawyers will kill me if I get it wrong.

MEANS: Room 40 deliberately lured U-boats to the area with false reports of an invasion. Why?

OPPORTUNITY: Room 40 could have known that L was sailing and about the  ad threatening to sink it. They could have directed L to another route. There were distroyers in the area, returning from escorting another ship. They could easily have diverted them to escort  L. (Many assumed there would be an escort. It woulfn't have been suspicious.)

[PatH]

Bellamarie, you're a few pages ahead of me.  Not too much to go.

Thanks for the link about gas in WWI.  In addition to any casualties, it was a big psychological hazard.  Here's the entire poem quoted in the article.  The author, Wilfred Owen was killed fighting a week before armistice.

Dulce et Decorum Est

[JoanK]

DEFENSE ATTOURNEYS: what is your answer?

[BarbStAubrey]

defense - Hind sight is wonderful - I see that it is just average folks with a specialized education and interest that are running these secret information gathering operations - they dispense through the lens they are operating under - in this case the lens is clandestine tracking of German warfare activity and to protect the nation in a way that keeps the secret to be used like a scalpel when the exact time is right - Their single focus puts all their creative skill into that mandate.

They were not a unit in room 40 created to figure as many creative ways to use the information they gathered about the German activities or to direct the other armed service's units or a particular section of the national fleet. They were not given a mandate to supply the armed services with a broad range of information so that command could direct either the army or the navy.

They were laser like focused on one thing - gather information and be ready to use it when the big event led by the Germans attacks Britain. It would be nice to think they had the ability of a successful CEO - a Steve Jobs - where this one unit in Room 40 could be the puppet master for those in command of the war and even Steve Jobs said to only work on the 5 most important things that will bring about your Mission.

Looking back at any massacre is heart-wrenching - it also makes us feel vulnerable - we fantasize, suppose it was us or should we ever sail or fly since things could be planned and those sailing the vessel or flying the plane are kept in the dark and we could be as one of those who sailed the Lusitania. It gives us pause to recognize we may never know if we are an instrument for bravery or somehow affecting the nation because of what happens to us in some catastrophe that rallies a nation into action -

What price glory - because we never know if we will be an instrument of glory. To have alerted the Lusitania would be no different than alerting every cellar full of families hoping to stay out of harms way with no way of knowing a plane full of bombs from the allies is about to unload overhead. The intended target was not sent out to those who would be in the path just as alternative routes or directing a convoy of protection was not sent out to the Lusitania and I suggest it was not even thought of by those in Room 40 since protection utilizing the army or navy was not the focus of Room 40.     

[PatH]

One more comment about poison gas: don't ever mix ammonia and bleach (clorox-type bleach).  It makes phosgene--the most toxic of the poison gases.

[JoanP]

Another memorable comment, PatH!  Always heard not to use cleansers of chlorine bleach and ammunia together on the same project, without knowing of the resulting poison gas!

The more thought I give to the actions (inactions) of the boys in Room 40, I find myself among those who understand their position.  I agree with Barb on this.  They were probably aware of measures being taken to protect/escort the Lusitania and other passenger ships- probably unaware of any new directives that would leave the Lusitania vulmerable to,attack.


It was Room 40's role to protect the secrecy of their ability to act when at war...and leave protection of merchant and passenger ships to the Navy department. To be fair they were sharing information on the beefed-up presence of submarines in the area with the Navy.

I'm a little fuzzy as to why the Lusitania was not provided the escort that everyone assumed she would have?  Did it have something to do with the fact that the Lusitania was running late due to the delayed start, the fog...and confusion about the escort. Does anyone remember the reason? 
 If I've read ahead, please forgive... Was considering Captain Turner's role in the delayed start - Question #6.

[bellamarie]

Barb, With all due respect our Steve Jobs, is and was the Commander in Chief, the president of the United States.  He knew a British ship left the New York harbor with americans aboard.  He knew there were warnings of danger.  He trying to remain neutral, and a bit busy with his love life, looked the other way.  At this point in the story I can only comment on what I have read thus far, so if there are other factors for his lack of action, to help secure the safety of the Lusitania,  I will reserve any comments until they are revealed.

JoanK., I am loving your mock trial.  I have to give a lot of thought to the mitigating facts before weighing in....... i may consider conferring with the Mock Turtle, Gryphon, White Rabbit, Mad Hatter, King of Hearts, Queen of Hearts, the Cook and Dormouse, and even Alice before deciding the outcome of who was responsible for the sinking of the ship, and if there are legal ramifications for neglectful or dereliction of duty by Cunard, Turner, Wilson, Room 40, and or others.

As for the reason why no escorts were sent to safely bring the Lusitania to shore, so far all I can gather is no one seemed to want to take the warnings of danger as grave as it was, and Room 40 didn't share their info.  Wilson was like Nero, too busy fiddling as Rome burned, in my summation at this point.  I have not read ahead so there may be more to learn.

[Jonathan]

Courtroom 40. Still weighing the evidence. And there's so much of it. Even Captain Turner could be implicated. He was aware of the risk. He could have raced through the dangerous waters and eluded the subs. Did the Brits have enough destroyers for all the merchant shipping in those waters? The first order of business in the next war was a generous loan of them from the U.S.

Attorney for the defense claims his client, the Germans, are absolved of all blame, when they posted the clear warning of the likelihood of coming to harm in the war zone.

The issue in this book reminds me of an experience many years ago. I was one of a group being shown the devastation suffered by Coventry, England, in WWII, as a result of air raids. It was whispered around that lives could have been saved, if people could have been warned. The secret intelligence was there, as in the case of the Lusitania, but was withheld for the same reason. It's still contentious, as a check with Google shows.

It does make one shudder to think of the Lusitania as a pawn in a deadly game of war.

[Ella Gibbons]

The prosecution of Room 40 - those who could have protected the Lusitania:

Churchill wanted America in the war - quote pg 190
The King of England questioned the security of the Lusitania -pg.227
Commander Hope of Room 40 knew of the danger but as Barbara pointed out the staff wanted to keep their information secret from the Germans until a "great occasion such as the German Fleet."pg 83

They knew.  I wonder if lawsuits were filed after the war?   

Jonathan has posted the idea of secret intelligence withholding evidence in WWII.  ]

YOU ARE THE JURY!  HOW DO YOU VOTE?  ARE  THE STAFF, COMMANDER, ETC. OF ROOM 40 GUILTY OF NEGLECT OF THE SAFETY OF THE LUITANIA?  ARE THEY GUILTY OF ALLOWING THE LUSITANIA TO SINK 

AND WHAT WOULD YOU H AVE DONE IF YOU WERE IN COMMAND OF ROOM 40?

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh Ella I am not being very respectful of this good debate however, I cannot stop laughing - maybe it is the beautiful fall day even if our temps are in the 90s anyhow this reminds me of Pope Formosus.

Back before there was an Italy, when city states and the wealthiest families added to their power with their support for who ruled the Holy Roman Empire and having 'their' man as Pope - conflicts between these families from different city states were regular.

During this time in history the Lambert area finally gets 'their' man in - Two Dukes of two different city states are so enraged with hatred for the more recently deceased Pope - Pope Formosus -  they call a Synod called the Cadaver synod -

"they dug up his rotting corpse and put it on trial in the so-called Cadaver synod of January 897. With the corpse propped up on a throne, a deacon was appointed to answer for the deceased pontiff. Formosus was found guilty of a number of trumped up charges and Stephen declared him unworthy of the papacy. Stephen then annulled Formosus' entire pontificate and declared all his ordinations invalid. The corpse was stripped of its sacred vestments, deprived of three fingers of its right hand (the blessing fingers), clad in the garb of a layman, and quickly buried. It was then re-exhumed, dragged through the streets and thrown in the Tiber River."

please laugh - because we appear to have dug up the rotting corpse of Room 40 and put it on trial. It was fun to see both sides but it is so funny how we never change - we all want Utopia on our own terms. Oh god - another cup of coffee I think...