Classics Forum

[Babi]

 

The Classics Forum

Paestum

Paestum, a complex of Greek Temples in  Southern Italy.

Welcome to our Classics Forum, which is our public discussion for those interested in the Classics. Since our Latin Classes are not visible to the public but we have a great many people interested in talking about the Classics, we've put this discussion up for your interest.

Please share here news, clips, magazine or newspaper articles, movies or television shows and especially books  you find that would be of interest to those of us who love the classics world.

Everyone is welcome!

It's never too late to learn Latin!



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Just out!


We are very excited to announce the 5th edition of our Ezine Ecce, a publication of our SeniorLearn Classics Project and it's incredible this time. Our UK Editor, Maryemm, has outdone herself, and Marcie's work on the layout put the icing on the cake.

We have articles by Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, a very interesting short piece on Sian Phillips, who played Livia in the I, Claudius production and who turns out to be, like Boris Johnson, a total fan of Latin.

We have articles by  prominent archaeologists,  Cambridge Don Mary Beard, articles of new finds and old places, and best of all, we have articles by our own current Latin students which are absolutely fascinating  on a variety of wide ranging subjects. What a talented and accomplished student body we have here! I particularly like the fact that each of our 6 Latin classes is represented in this issue.

Take some time to immerse yourselves in this exciting issue! We hope you enjoy it!

http://seniorlearn.org/classics/ecce/ecce5/titlepg.html 

Bow Belle, I'm sure Ms. Beard would be pleased to be compared with Eleanor of Aquitaine.  May I ask, does
'Bow Belle' reflect involvement in archery?  That would be an ingenious choice.

[Lorac625]

The Ecce is fascinating!  I am reading it eagerly.  Nice to know I am not the only American who realizes there was history before 1776, no matter how often it feels that way.

[ginny]

Isn't it good! I am so glad you are enjoying it! I hope Maryemm will do another one this year.

[Lorac625]

Now,now, we all know that Alexander was an immortal and so has no tomb! LOL
        A big thanks for all of these wonderful sites-now the laundry will NEVER get done!  The only tip I have is NS Gill at About.com has a great Classic Fact of the Day post that I signed up for.  That's where I found an article about learning Latin online that sent me here.  Thank you for that,Ms Gill! 

[ginny]

Really? How interesting. Would you mind sharing that link where you found us to studying Latin online? I'm very grateful, too!

[Frybabe]

I used to read NS Gill's posts regularly on About.com. Don't much go over there anymore, for no good reason.

[Babi]

    Laundry's not hard. Toss it into the washer, and wander off. Go back later and switch
it to the dryer and wander off again to whatever pleases.  Fold clothes while watching
TV. (Housework, of course, consists of tackling the job most oviously in need of it, ...
if one is able, that is.) 

[Maryemm]

I hope Maryemm will do another one this year.

  Ginny


 I have just seen this!   

[Maryemm]

ARCHEOLOGISTS will follow a buried Roman road in the hope they will find an ancient fort.


See:  http://rogueclassicism.com/

[Maryemm]

Andrew Mitchell MP is said to have referred to police officers as "plebs" when they were carrying out official duties at Downing Street. He denies using this term.

Classics Professor Mary Beard in the "Daily Mail" explains the true origins of the word "pleb":

The irony then is that most of the mega rich, pushy and snobby Roman politicians of the first century BC were, in formal terms, plebeians. Cicero was, Pompey was, so was Mr Moneybags himself ("Count no man as rich unless he can raise his own army"), Marcus Licinius Crassus. So when Cicero was being snooty about the sordida plebs (and plebs is just short for plebeius), we have to remember that strictly he was actually a plebeian himself. So I think that the best way to get at Mr Mitchell might be to point out to him that, snob as I guess he is, he is probably just as plebeian as those he was insulting. Pots and kettles.

[Frybabe]

I never realized that Anglesey is an island. Never noticed the channel separating it from the mainland.

[Maryemm]

 Anglesey :  Mona  (Latin)  Sir Fon (Welsh)

 Paulinus, the Roman commander, led the forces that crossed the straits and massacred the Druids and the Celtic tribespeople opposing him.

 Prince William and his wife currently live on Anglesey where the Prince serves at at RAF Valley

[Maryemm]

I have just started reading Dr Sam Parnia's book, "What Happens When We Die" The doctor is researching near death  and out of body experiences  and has been doing so since around 2005.

 My own NDE was reported to him  although it isn't included in his book as mine did not conform to the required "number" of criteria.

I was amazed to find that NDE's are not a new phenomenon. Well read all about it here at:

 http://near-death.com/experiences/evidence12.html

[Babi]

 I once worked with a lady who had such an experience,  MARYEMM.  She was a very serene personality,  and said that it
had entirely changed her view of death.  She had no anxiety whatever about someday leaving this life.

[Maryemm]

 Babi: Dr Parnia writes about this "serenity. Mine was a state of euphoria that lasted from February until June. It was wonderful. Twelve years on, it has vanished, alas!

 I'm amazed that Plato, in the "Republic" tells the story of Er, who awoke on his funeral pre and described his journey to the Underworld.

[Babi]

  I'm curious, MARYEMM.  How did Plato describe it?  Was it similar to the description we hear from near-death
experiences today?

[Maryemm]

The link above gives all the details. Here it is quoted from that site;

In Plato's Republic, he concludes his discussion of immortal soul and ultimate justice with the story of Er. Traditional Greek culture had no strong faith in ultimate justice, as monotheistic faiths do. Ancestral spirits lingered in the dark, miserable underworld, Hades, regardless of their behavior in this life, with no reward or punishment, as Odysseus learned in his Odyssey. But Plato, perhaps importing some Orphic, Egyptian or Zoroastrian themes, drew on the idea of an otherworldly reward or punishment to motivate virtuous behavior in this life. The first point of Er's story is to report on this cosmic justice; it is:

"..the tale of a warrior bold, Er, the son of Armenious, by race a Pamphylian. He once upon a time was slain in battle, and when the corpses were taken up on the tenth day already decayed, he was found intact, and having been brought home, at the moment of his funeral, on the twelfth day as he lay upon the pyre, revived, and after coming to life related what, he said, he had seen in the world beyond. He said that when his soul went forth from his body he journeyed with a great company and that they came to a mysterious region where there were two openings side by side in the Earth, and above and over against them in the heaven two others, and that judges were sitting between these, and that after every judgment they bade the righteous journey to the right and upward through the heaven with tokens attached to them in front of the judgment passed upon them, and the unjust to take the road to the left and downward, they too wearing behind signs of all that had befallen them, and that when he himself drew near they told him that he must be the messenger to humanity to tell them of that other world, and they charged him to give ear and to observe everything in the place." (Rep. X,614 b,c,d)
 

From the other tunnels came souls preparing for reincarnation on Earth. From above came souls happily reporting "delights and visions of a beauty beyond words." From below came souls lamenting and wailing over a thousand years of dreadful sufferings, where people were repaid manifold for any earthly suffering they had caused. Journeying on, the newcomers saw:

"..extended from above throughout the heaven and the Earth, a straight light like a pillar, most nearly resembling the rainbow, but brighter and purer ... and they saw there at the middle of the light the extremities of its fastenings stretched from heaven, for this light was the girdle of the heavens like the undergirders of triremes, holding together in like manner the entire revolving vault." (Rep. X, 616 b,c)
 

[Babi]

  How fascinating, MARYEMM.  Obviously, I didn't get far enough in my reading of Plato.  (I consistently bogged down in
Republic,  V,  because it made no sense to me.  After about the third time, I thoughtfully decided that was because the
revered Plato was wrong there.  )  I'll have to dig it out again and go straight to X.  Then, maybe, I'll take a look at
the propositions in between.

[Maryemm]

Spanish archaeologist finds exact place of Caesar’s murder

See:

http://rt.com/art-and-culture/news/spanish-archaeologist-caesar-assassination-275/

and

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49380552/ns/technology_and_science-science/

[Frybabe]

Wow! Thanks, Maryemm.

[Babi]

 Yes, thank you, MARYEMM.  I had always thought Caesar was murdered just outside the
forum after a meeting.  Shakespeare's influence, no doubt.

[Maryemm]

LONDON (AP) — A large batch of 4th-century Roman gold coins found by an amateur treasure hunter will go on display today (Oct. 17th) in the English city near where they were discovered.

Staff at St. Albans' Verulamium Musem showed off the 159 coins for TV cameras on Wednesday. The coins are examples of the solidus, high-value coins that would been used for major transactions such as buying land or ship cargo, said David Thorold, a curator at the museum.

Officials say the coins were found on private land north of St. Albans, but have not identified the site. The town, which is 22 miles (35 kilometers) north of London, also boasts a Roman theater and ruins of ancient walls. Brick salvaged from the Roman city can also be seen in parts of the city's medieval cathedral.

The solidus coin, plural solidi, dates to the closing years of the fourth century and was issued under the Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, Theodosius, Arcadius and Honorius. Thorold said coins typically were buried as a sacrifice to gods when the owner was going on a journey or in times of war.

"Gold solidi were extremely valuable coins and were not traded or exchanged on a regular basis. They would have been used for large transactions such as buying land or goods by the shipload," he said.

Officials said it appeared that the hoard was disturbed in recent times by quarrying or plowing. A date has not yet been set for the public to have a look, said Claire Wainwright, the city's communications and marketing officer.

While the find is significant, it is not as large as the hoard of nearly 15,000 coins plus 200 other pieces of gold and silver jewelry and tableware found by an amateur treasure hunter near Hoxne, England in 1992. That find included 569 solidus coins.

[Babi]

  Aren't they gorgeous?!  I would love to have a few of those to mount in black velvet for display.   Of course, if I showed
them off I'd soon be a target for thieves.     

[Maryemm]

 They are beautiful and isn't the condition great?

[Babi]

 GINNY, I wanted to share with you some of the fascinating background I'm finding in Saylor's
book, "The Seven Wonders, a Novel of the Ancient World".  The protagonist, with his tutor,
is traveling to each of the seven wonders of the world of that time. The little 'mysteries'
he encounters at each site are intriguing, but the background information is what I'm finding
especially interesting.
  The site of the Olympiad is described beautifully, and he wrote of many things that were
new to me, tho' you are likely much more familiar with them.  For example, Mount Kronos,
which loomed just behind Olympia, was identified as the spot where Zeus fought with his
father for control of the universe.  I also read that Apollo defeated Ares in a
boxing match, and out-ran Hermes in a footrace. Wow. That must have been embarassing to
the god of war and the fleet messenger-of-the gods.

 There was also a statement that married women were not allowed in Olympia, but that "other
sorts of women" were. Hardly seems fair; I'm sure the married women would have enjoyed
watching the games, too. Which, of course, may be precisely why the husbands didn't want
them there....possibly making unflattering comparisons.

  Were you aware of any of this?  Stephen Saylor is supposed to be an excellent scholar
and has written other books about ancient Greece and Rome. I would greatly appreciate your
input.

[ginny]

Babi, I'm afraid I can't be much help. I haven't ever read a Saylor and I can't really say if he's accurate or not. I'm finding it difficult to find much of a Vita on him, other than he "studied" xXX or YYY at college, and so that's not much help, it could have been one survey elective course, I just don't know.  Does the book offer any other credentials as an historian or a classicist?

I know he writes novels, and I know a lot of people read them, but I have not a clue if they are accurate or not. I'm going to see if I can find this one because I like the idea of the 12 Wonders of the Ancient World.

I'm afraid the historical novel is not my strong suit, I'm sorry not to be more help. This is why I wanted YOUR opinion.

(Of course the Olympic games featured naked men, maybe that was why married women were not encouraged as spectators?)

[Babi]

  My opinion is simply that  I'm thoroughly enjoying the book.  He is descibed as a scholar
of classics and history,  and is a popular speaker at universities both here and abroad.
He has woven his stories into real events and times; I just don't know how much of it is
accurate history and how much is literary license.

[ginny]

Well of course, that's the bottom line. If you enjoy something you hope it's fairly accurate, you trust the author, who is taking you on such an enjoyable ride,  is  correct, because you are probably going to repeat something in the book sometime, like "did you know that..." Or "I read that..." If what's being repeated turns out NOT to be true, it certainly causes one to have egg on one's face, like the movie Gladiator with Commodus dying in the amphitheater. Happily that movie has page after page of the errors noted, books often do not.

I always wonder why, if they have all these facts, they have resorted to a novel form instead of writing a history. And this is the main reason that I have so many problems reading historical fiction.

I've got a copy  of it now, I don't see anything at all about any sort of credentials of the author. I'm also reading Alexander McCall Smith who puts a lot of Latin in his books,  even down to a drawing of  Cave Canem, and I'm also reading Micro by the late Michael Crichton, finished by another author, and it's also full of Latin. Somehow Latin seems to be coming back which is very exciting to me, and OH did you see the news yesterday?

Hang on...

[ginny]

Latin in the News!

Pope Starts New Vatican Department to Promote Latin

 Yesterday Pope Benedict announced the founding of a new academy to promote Latin.

In an article reported by Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/10/us-pope-latin-idUSBRE8A90EQ20121110

"He said Catholic seminarians studying for the priesthood were weak in studies of the humanities in general and Latin in particular. They would benefit from a deeper knowledge of the language and be able to read ancient Church texts in the original."

and...

"It appears necessary to support a commitment to a greater understanding of the use of Latin, both in the Church and in the greater world of culture," Pope Benedict wrote in the letter setting up the academy."

And he wrote that in Latin, of course.

What exciting news!

[Maryemm]

It certainly is exciting news, Ginny.

The new academy's statutes, written of course in Latin, say its goal is to promote both written and spoken Latin through publications, conferences, seminars and performances.

[Maryemm]

 Boris Johnson*  is in the news again. His "romantic allure", according to one blonde admirer, is the result of "his melliflous mastery of the Classics.

"If I had my way, everyone would be speaking Latin" declares London's Mayor.

"Causam magnae linguae nostrae amplectamur", booms Boris. "Let us embrace the cause of our great language".


* Boris Johnson was kind enough to allow me to quote one of his speeches in our recent issue of "Ecce".

[Pete7268]

Ginny,

I am not sure if this is the correct place to subscribe to your Thanksgiving/Christmas turkey side dishes but here goes.

You called it an old Chestnut, it could not be more appropriate! see the following extract from Kew, The Royal Botanic Garden near London.

The sweet chestnut (Castanea sativa) is a deciduous tree, widespread across Europe. In autumn it produces edible nuts that have been eaten for centuries. Indeed, during the Roman Empire troops going into battle were fed on a sweet chestnut porridge.

Very popular here in the UK as an ingredient for stuffing at Christmas time. 

[ginny]

Pete,  how nice to see this here. I wonder if others not in the Latin classes might also  enjoy adding to our feast, it never occurred to me, what fun!

You may have started something! Let's add the turkey here as well, folks might be amazed at the prevalence of Latin roots at their dinner table this Thanksgiving! I'll put yours in the heading of the class as well.


Here is our platter for Thanksgiving, but it looks like something is missing! Where are the sides?  As we sit down this year to tuck in, we want to add to the table conversation by realizing how many of the foods we eat have Latin roots!

 Help us add "all the trimmings" to our turkey for our holiday feast this year.  You can bring more than one "side," too! Use a dictionary to research the origin of some of the side dishes we enjoy on this day.

Bring them to class and watch the platter magically get bigger! We can bring things any day during or after regular class activities and we'll put the submissions right here~!


Here is an example:

(1) cabbage:   mid-15c., caboge, from M.Fr. caboche "head" (in the Channel Islands, "cabbage"), from O.Fr. caboce "head," from L. caput "head" (see head). Introduced to Canada 1541 by Jacques Cartier on his third voyage. First written record of it in U.S. is in the 1660s.

[Babi]

GINNY,  I would suppose a history text would require much more work than historical fiction.
The historian must document all his sources, and hopefully provide a useful index, etc. The
fiction writer is allowed literary license and doesn't have to verify anything, though of
course he may opt to do so.
  Oh, how thrilling for the Latin lovers! Brace yourself; this might mean a surge in hopeful
students for you. Don't get so committed you no longer have time for SL. 

[Maryemm]

The leek, Allium porrum, originated in the Mediterranean basin, it is one of our most ancient cultivated vegetables, already much consumed in many variants by the ancient Greeks and Romans


The genus name, Allium comes from the Celtic "All," meaning pungent, the species name comes from The Roman name for leek "porrum"
"The most esteemed leeks are those grown in Egypt," wrote Pliny, the first-century Roman. His contemporary, the Emperor Nero, ate so many leeks he was nicknamed Porophagus -- leek eater.

The Anglo Saxon word for Leek was "Por leac" while the name for onion was "Yul leac" The medieval Anglo Saxon kitchen garden was called the "Leek-garden" and the gardener the "Leek-ward." To this day many English towns derive their name from the Leek including, Leckhampstead, Latton and Leighton Buzzard.
The word "porridge" originally referred to a vegetable soup containing leeks.

In French, the leek is called le poireau, harking back to its Latin name. It is also known as ‘l'asperge des pauvre’ meaning "poor man's asparagus". There is even a French word to describe the edible part of the leek. It's called le fût; which also means "barrel."

http://www.seedaholic.com/leek-gros-long-d-ete.html




The Leek is the national emblem of Wales. According to Mr Andrew Dixey, Estate Manager for National Museum Wales,

"The wild leek is a pretty poor plant for eating. It's fair to say, even if the wild leek was a native plant, then the Romans brought more domesticated varieties.
 
"They had domesticated varieties that were much more beneficial from a nutritional and taste point of view."

[Maryemm]

Ancient tunnels in Rome reopen to the public

http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Ancient+tunnels+in+Rome+reopen+to+the+public/28073

[Lucylibr]

 http://www.italiannotebook.com/art-archaeology/gladiator-tomb/

This is a link to information about the Roman Gladiator's tomb.

[Babi]

 That is a shame, LUCY.  Maybe some wealthy lover of antiquity will read about this and
offer to fund an excavation.

[Maryemm]

Saturnalia was a popular Roman midwinter festival celebrating the god Saturn, which lasted for several days. Saturn was the god of agriculture and worship of him hopefully encouraged prosperity to come. It was a time to eat,drink and be merry and there was a tradition of tomfoolery and role reversal, where masters became servants and vice versa in a  similar way to the Lord of Misrule of later Christmas celebrations. As Chester was a major Roman centre in the UK and the residents are proud of their heritage, it is celebrated here with a torch-lit parade of Roman Centurions to the beat of a drum with dancers and entertainers as well as rites to Saturn himself.

See:

http://calendarcustoms.com/articles/chesters-saturnalia/

Be sure to view the video:

 CHESTER: SATURNALIA 2010

This year it was celebrated Thursday, December 20th.

[ginny]

Babi

hahaa Mary, only in England! Thank you for that timely video and info about the Saturnalia and that eyeopening article, Lucy, on the Gladiator's Tomb and the astounding information it reveals.  I wish I were a Bill Gates, I'd fund some of these archaeological digs.  Also thank you Mary for the article on the opening of the underground tunnels in Rome! Rome seems  to me to be  like Disney World, something new every year  to see and get excited about!

Loved the etymology of the leek!

And the classics continue to permeate our society in more subtle ways, too. You can't open a magazine here at the end of 2012 and not see something about the Romans or Latin in the news, it's amazing, the allusions. In the General Petraeus scandal, articles about him mentioned his coming into a room like a "proconsul."   I would bet a lunch nobody at all knows what that was or how that entrance might be different from any other man's.

The December 24th issue of Newsweek mentions Vladimir Putin's calling upon the women of Russia to have  at least 3 children,  and promising a dole of rewards to women who do so, this may have rung a bell with Latin scholars, as it harks back to the Emperor Augustus's plans to increase the population, promising tax cuts for those who did and a lot of other benefits:

The consul (of a pair of consuls) who has the larger number of children is to be considered the senior consul. If each has the same number, the one who is still married is considered senior. If both are married and each has the same number of children, only then is the elder in terms of chronology considered the senior (Aulus Gellius, Noctes Atticae 2. 15).

Possessing chilcren can lead to exemption from civil obligations. Justinian Institutes 1. 25 praefatio: "There are certain grounds on which persons are exempt from serving in the office of guardian or curator (tutor vel curator), of which the most common is their having a certain number of children, whether in power or emancipated. If a man has, in Rome, three children living, or in Italy four, or in the provinces five, he may claim exemption from these as from other public obligations." [In 9 B.C., Augustus' wife Livia, who had reached her fiftieth birthday) was accorded the ius trium liberorum, even though she did not qualify under the law: Cassius Dio 55. 2.]

Freedmen who have two or more children are exempted from certain of the obligations which could be placed on them by prior oath by their former masters as conditions for emancipation.


Women who have three or more children (if they are freedwomen, four or more) are exempted from the law which requires them to have a guardian [ius trium liberorum].

From: http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/AugMarriage.html


In a December 24th issue of Time, in an article on General Disorders, the list of misbehavior by the military higher ups is chronicled with the statement, "the spate of generals acting like caesars has led to...."

The Romans, it seems, are never far from our thoughts.

  Thank you all for providing such fascinating reading here in 2012!

And Happy Holidays!