Holiday Drop In Open House

[bellamarie]

Welcome, welcome, ALL to our Annual Holiday Drop in, our 20th Anniversary Special!

Come as you are, have a glass of egg nog, and greet old friends. We hope to make this a Homecoming for old, and we hope, brand new friends, and that you will each bring the gift of sharing a memory, a recipe or a thought for the holidays.

We have a  Raffle, too,  and just by posting here you are in the contest. Winner to be announced the 23rd of December.

So come on in, and note the Topics du Jour as we count down to the 25th:



December 1-2:  Come on home and tell us the best book YOU read this year and why.
December 3-4:  Give us the gift of your favorite Holiday  Recipe
December 5-6:  What Christmas or Hanukkah do you remember best and why?
December 7-8:  Did you ever have a disastrous holiday you laugh about now? The dressing that ran, the turkey which never cooked? Tell us about it.
December 9-10: Are you giving a book for Christmas or Hanukkah? If so, what is it?
December 11-12: What is your favorite book with a holiday theme? Can be a mystery, etc.
December 13-14: What one thing do you absolutely have to have at Christmas or Hanukkah or it wouldn't be right without it?
December 15-16: What's your all time favorite holiday sweet treat?
December 17-18:  What's your favorite TV holiday program?
December 19-20: - What one symbol of the season  do you have to have  every year?
December 21-22: Who is the best Scrooge in all the movies and plays you've ever seen? Why?
December 23: Raffle winner announced


December 26- 31: Till January we'll we'll discuss  this charming short story, an allegory of virtues, A Kidnapped Santa Claus  by  L. Frank Baum

Lyman Frank Baum (15 May 1856 – 6 May 1919) was an American author of children’s books, best known for writing The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. A Kidnapped Santa Claus is a Christmas-themed short story written by L. Frank Baum. It is a continuation of the story set forth in The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, telling how Santa Claus was kidnapped by “Daemons” in a plan to make children unhappy. It has been called one of Baum’s most beautiful stories and constitutes an influential contribution to the mythology of Christmas.

http://www.aesopfables.com/kidnap.html


Everyone is welcome!

Mkaren, I hope you do get that stocking down and put on some Christmas music to put you in the spirit. 

My hubby and I attended out grandchildren Zak & Zoey's Christmas pageant tonight and I loved Zoey's Kindergarten class all dressed in the jammies for a theme of Christmas in our Jammies.  The children sang beautifully.  Zak's 3rd grade class theme was about not getting so lost in the materialistic things and to remember Jesus' birth is the real reason for the season.  It was so cute the children acted a family with three very spoiled children who only cared about how many gifts they were getting.  The grandparents came to visit on Christmas and reminded them before they open presents they need to all go to church, while at church they heard the message of giving to others, so all the spoiled children decided to give away some of their toys to a shelter.  It really was written and acted out conveying the message, and the children sang all of their songs beautifully.  We said our goodbyes and was walking to the car and I told my hubby, "Now I feel like it's Christmas!"  So, I guess one other symbol I must have is the children's Christmas pageant!  We have been going to one for over 35 years, from our children to our grandchildren.  Of course I took a million pictures and video taped many of their songs.  When they come to spend the night on Wednesday I will sit and watch them with them. 

[ginny]

Going back a bit, Adoannie, I was thinking of you and love the sound of your Christmas plans this year. I think it's very creative to try new things!!

Karen, read Bill Bryson, do you like him? I tried to read his last one The Road to Little Dribbling before sleep and ended up cackling all night hysterically. But he's not a comedian. I also reread Notes From a Small Island in paperback and I'm a  Stranger here, myself. I'm thinking those are the last laughs I had reading a book, but I bet people here know some good  laugh out loud  books to recommend.

What's the last laugh out loud book you all read, so we can recommend one to Karen?

I'll tell you what put me in the mood this year. Yesterday at McDonalds (hold on, the woman is getting really fancy here) the crowd was immense and you could not even get in the parking lot, blocking street traffic dangerously, lots of honking,  and I started to just drive on, but I stubbornly wanted some of their junk food, say what you will. The Season of gaiety and light was definitely stressed and angry.

And cars were backing out, and maneuvering forward,  it was a total mess, tempers were frayed, people were storming off from the line and suddenly a woman who I had seen go all around the building once to get in line motioned for me to go ahead of her. I couldn't believe it. But there it was, a tiny little  Random Act of Kindness, much waving and thanks. So I returned it to the next person who was trying to back out and then she was happy and we all were happy, it was a nice warm feeling. 

I realize this is not  a sterling moment in the world's progress, nobody will ever care  about it, but me,  but it made a difference. I'm going to do the same today for somebody again (and I'm going to the dentist who dislocated my jaw on the 16th so it will take some kindness) but it really does brighten your day and week.  It's the spirit of the season, perhaps. I wonder what the world would be if we all did just one and passed on what we received as well? It makes you happy, I know that.

Kristen, your success with #9 encouraged me in the Puzzel Manor book and I got #8!!!  I could not believe it, and,  flushed with victory, attempted #9. No matter what I did with it, and I tried everything, I read it up one side and down the other, I could not only not solve it,  I'm not sure I  understand the explanation. And then on,  was it 11, I don't play backgammon,  and so had no clue there.

I'm running out of clues and options. What a clever man he is, too clever by far for me, or I've gotten quite dull in my old age but I like being challenged. I AM beginning to remember the end, tho and it's coming fast.

Your idea of the mincemeat out of the jar is one I have considered actually. It's good luck. I don't know why people are obsessed with collards and black eyed peas, for New Year's, mincemeat and herring in sour cream are much older.  And better, but I have a sweet tooth, as we can see, resulting in dentists, and preferring mincemeat and herring in sour cream (and onions)  for luck to collards and black eyed peas.

I agree, on Manny  Nosowsky, tooo cool. And since we were discussing hm, I thought I'd send him some holiday greetings, as I hadn't heard from him in a while,  and got a lovely note back from him, extending his greetings to all of us here.  Wonderful man.

Barbara, hope you have a wonderful safe trip! Other than the 4:30 departure time,  it sounds lovely.

Bellamarie, a lovely tradition, thank you for sharing it.

Peggy, I'd have thought in Michigan you'd have feet of snow!  This recent storm did not get to Michigan?  I like snow too, I like it at night in the woods, the crunch of it as you walk thru it  and the beauty of no foot print but your own. I think if we lived where there was lots of snow I'd have to have snowshoes, because I can't ski. Do you ski?

The chickens, however, hate snow. Absolutely hate it.  Refuse to step ONE foot out of the chicken  house if there's the slightest patch, even if the rest is showing grass. How many people do you know who go and shovel  off a chicken ramp so they can get outside? hahaha Not many I bet.

Ho ho ho

[Kristen]

Ginny, I left a post for you in the Latin classroom.  I didn't want to post it here and ruin things for anyone who might decide to read the Puzzel Manor book.

[PatH]

Bellamarie, now I see why dogsitting left you with no free time for a few days.  What a story! I couldn't help laughing a lot, though it wasn't funny at the time.  I'm glad it had a happy ending.

[CallieOK]

The Christmas symbol I must have is the Creche that belonged to my grandmother.  Some of the pieces may have been brought from Germany by her parents.  It was always out in my childhood home and has been in mine for at least 50 years.
A memory that makes me smile is the year our very young second son decided (for some never-explained reason) that the cow belonged on top of the manger.  So he exchanged it for the tiny angel.  Not long afterwards, Big Brother came by - and huffingly returned the cow and angel to their "proper places".  Younger Brother never said a word but, when the way was clear,  he quietly switched them again.
This backing-and-forthing went on for the entire Christmas season.

[PatH]

Ginny, you've described the heart of my one woman campaign to make the world a tiny bit better one smile at a time.  Tiny acts of kindness like yours, smiles or sympathetic comments when appropriate, etc.  Sometimes the good feeling gets passed on by the recipient.
Ginny:

How many people do you know who go and shovel  off a chicken ramp so they can get outside? hahaha Not many I bet.

That's a very safe bet, considering you're the only person I know who keeps chickens.

[PatH]

Callie, your creche story is a hoot.  I can just see JoanK and me doing something like that if we' thought of it.

[bellamarie]

Thank you PatH., I don't blame you one bit for laughing reading my story.  I read it to my sister in law over the phone and we laughed til we cried.  Today I went to lunch with my hubby and our two sets of friends, while in Bob Evans eating our dessert after seeing the movie Collateral Beauty, I decided to cheer my one friend up from crying during the movie because she recently lost her daughter, so I got out my iphone and read the Daisy Getaway story to all of them.  We were laughing so much the waitress came up and wondered what was so funny.

Callie I know just what you mean with the switching the figures of your creche.  I have a Dept. 56 Dickens Village collection my hubby has been collecting for at least 30 yrs.  I meticulously get it all set up with the skaters pond, houses, figures etc., and my grankids rearrange the pieces every time they come over.  I quit putting the pieces back where they belong.

Barb, where ever you are, have a safe trip and enjoy every second with your family.

Ginny, One kind act generates another.  No one but you and that one person may not know of it, but it sure does make you feel good inside.

[ginny]

Thank you, Kristen, how clever you are! I would never have seen that pattern!

I agree with you, too, it's a fun book even if you can't figure out the puzzles. I did get one other, one of the crosswords, before turning to the answer for the last one  online, and I did figure out (or remember)  hu dun it this time before filling in the entire thing, but again, I have read the thing. MANY times. hahaha Now I have to figure out  WHY.

Such a clever man. One wants to read it quickly, the way it's written and the puzzles slow it down, I think it's a book to be savored and figured out before you advance, if you can, that is.  Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed it.  The page with the answers mentioned Nelson DeMille did one, too, in connection with 1000 piece puzzle, now THAT interests me, and I've found   a set, I think it's the last one on Amazon. I can see THAT one will take a great deal of time.

Callie, such a cute story, for some reason it makes perfect sense to me to have the cows on the roof, did that happen in Heidi? So cute.

Today our topic is  who, in your opinion, made the best Scrooge in film adaptations? Or any other subject you want to talk about. There must have been 100 Scrooges.

Here is mine: Alastair (I spelled his name incorrectly the other day) Sim in the old black and white 1951  A Christmas Carol:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtJeVY_ojKM

I was delighted to find it on youtube last night. If you watch it 15 minutes you can see a wonderful Marley, too.  1951.  Wasn't that just yesterday? And what a CAST that thing has. You can see "Mrs Bridges" from Upstairs Downstairs (the original one) and Patrick McNee from the Avengers (remember him and Mrs. Peel?) and many others.

I like his brother, Gerald Sim, too, who was in the Mapp and Lucia series as the "Padre."

I don't like the older one, from the 30's, as much.  I am trying to remember who was in it. Seymour something?  And Basil  Rathbone did one on the radio, does anybody remember that? I used to have that recording, he was so good.

Humbug. I looked up the origin of humbug yesterday and it said it was "unknown." How can a word like that have an unknown origin?

Oh and so much for my tacky cinnamon bun tree idea, I forgot (?!?) we always have ambrosia to go with the pecan pie for dessert. How could anybody forget peeling all those oranges? Must have been a Freudian slip. hahaha Or the fact that my husband peeled them all last year, maybe it's wishful thinking he'd do it again. hahahaa

Memo to self: NEVER have any sort of periodontist visit scheduled before Christmas. NEVER. I think they're all sadists at heart.

Friday we'll have the drawing for the winner of a $25 gift certificate from Amazon, Amazon UK or B&N. Stay tuned!

Pat, everybody should keep chickens, they are wonderful barometers of human behavior.

HO ho ho! Here's one for Karen, to cheer her up:

[bellamarie]

Well, for today's question who played your favorite Scrooge, I have to admit I have NO favorite.  We have the movie on VHS and I could barely ever get through watching this movie.  I simply don't like it!!  As I mentioned before, my hubby has been collecting the Dept 56 Dickens Village for years and we have some wonderful pieces with the house and the figurines of Scrooge, present, past, future etc.  I love this collection and it brings the grandchildren great joy helping set it up and rearranging the figures, but.....  I don't like the movie.  I know like many children's movies (not that this movie was made specifically for children) there is a morale to be learned at the end of the movie.  I just found this movie frightening to watch, and it does break my heart in how cruel and mean Scrooge is throughout the movie.  So.....  Bah hum bug! 

We have a friend who is married with four children and all through the Christmas season he is Scrooge!!  He refuses to put up a tree til Christmas Eve day and takes it down December 26th.  He simply hates the whole idea of Christmas.  I nicknamed him Scrooge. 

Here's a Scrooge I may be able to tolerate...


 

[PatH]

I'm no expert on A Christmas Carol ; don't dislike it, but it's been so long since I've seen any of the movies, I don't remember them.

Ginny, thanks for contacting Manny.  He hasn't been doing puzzles for the New York Times for a long time, and I wondered what had happened to him.  Different puzzle-makers have different styles, and Manny's were always rather scholarly, neatly constructed, and lots of fun.

[Kristen]

Bellamarie,
Try Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol.  It's a cartoon from start to finish. 

[PeggyCasing]

I, like others have no favorite Scrooge... I think the one I have watched most often was played by Lionel Barrymore??? (Spelling?) 

Ginny-  We DID get the snow and the temperature has been averaging in the teens, so it's hung around... but guess what? Just in time for Christmas, we're expecting temps in the 40's and RAIN.  I guess Santa is going to have to wear his galoshes this year!

[Mkaren557]

I came late to any movie of A Christmas Carol because I was scared out of my mind and about the time I covered my head with my jacket, my mother always left the theater with me or changed the channel.  So I have no idea how old I was when I made it through the whole movie or who was the best Scrooge.  I think they are all different and all interesting.  For instance I think George C. Scott, Alastair Sims are really what Dickens wanted Scrooge to be:  mean and nasty transformed to generous and joyful.  I think I saw a version where Henry Winkler was Scrooge and I liked that.  I have not seen Mr. Magoo because I can't suspend belief enough to want to see Scrooge in a cartoon.  I am going to do a little research about the book A Christmas Carol and come back.  My guess is that his intended audience was adults: social reform is always first with Dickens and his audience would recognize the greedy business owner very quickly. I'll be back.

[ginny]

You are right, Karen.  Here are only  a couple of things that bear on A Christmas Carol, and why it's more significant  than a cartoon:

   --- Early in 1843, as a response to a government report on the abuse of child laborers in mines and factories, Dickens vowed he would strike a “sledge-hammer blow . . . on behalf of the Poor Man’s Child.”  That sledge-hammer was A Christmas Carol.

--- The Cratchit family is based on Dickens’ childhood home life. He lived in poor circumstances in a “two up two down” four roomed house which he shared with his parents and five siblings. Like Peter Cratchit, young Charles, the eldest boy, was often sent to pawn the family’s goods when money was tight. Like many poor families the Cratchits had nothing in which to roast meat. They relied on the ovens of their local baker which were available on Sundays and Christmas when the bakery was closed.


 A Christmas Carol was first published in 1843.  Initially six thousand copies of the book were printed.  More copies were ordered after the first printing was sold in only five days.

 ----   At the time Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol Christmas wasn’t commonly celebrated as a festive holiday. In The Pickwick Papers and A Christmas Carol Dickens’ descriptions of feasting, games and family unity combined with his message that Christmas was a time “when want is keenly felt and abundance rejoices” helped revive popular interest in many Christmas traditions that are still practiced today.
   
I love it and every time I read it or see it, even after all these years,  I see something new in it.   

[ginny]

We've actually come to the end of our Countdown to Christmas, but what have we left off?  There seems to be something we've forgotten to ask, what would you like to add to the discussion?

Peggy, I hope the rain holds off so you can have a White Christmas!  Lionel Barrymore! I think...is it possible I missed his? I bet it IS, I will see if I can find it. Perhaps it was he rather than Basil Rathbone who did the radio show, too?

Pat, yes, that sort of describes Manny, too, doesn't it? He'd like that.  I was very glad to hear from him, too.

Karen, I haven't seen Henry Winkler's take on it, I will look for it, I like him, a lot. Have you seen his recent one on the old guys traveling? I loved that thing. Bill Shatner, George Foreman, Henry Winkler, Terry Bradshaw and...who else? A young sidekick, traveled the world. I thought it was a hoot and it's been renewed for next year.

So now what category have we left out here? I know there's something, it's right at the tip of my tongue.

[bellamarie]

Kristen thanks for the suggestion of Mr. Magoo's Christmas version.  I just may give that a try with my two grandchildren since they are spending the night with us tonight.  My eight year old Zak actually wanted to watch the Christmas Carol a couple of weeks ago, but our vhs version was all snowy.

As far as another category to mention, I would like to know everyone's favorite Christmas Carol or music they enjoy during this holiday season.

I have so many different songs but I truly love being at Mass singing, Silent Night.  That song always bring tears to my eyes and joy to my heart.  O Come All Ye Faithful is another favorite. 

[ANNIE]

I liked "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever" which seems to be quite popular for churches to do as a traditional play every year.  Also there's another traditional one which takes place on a train which seems quite popular also. Can't think of the title but will look it up.
 
"The Best Christmas Pageant Ever" and "The Polar Express" and my granddaughter has asked me to attend her church's Christmas offering on Christmas Eve because she didn't want me to be alone alone on Christmas Eve. And I bet I will get to see one of these plays!😊💕!  Kaleigh is one of my favorites!😊💕💕💕💕

Almost forgot to mention the Figgy Pudding!  When I saw the picture in someone's post, it looked just like my MIL's  Suet Pudding with hard sauce on it. She made it every Christmas and on our first Christmas at their home, I was totally prepared to dislike it!  But, after my first bite, I loved it! Surprise, surprisr, Ann!!!!😊😄💕💕💕😄

[bellamarie]

I don't think I have ever had Figgy Pudding.  I will have to make a special effort to try it. 

[ginny]

Oh I do like the idea of including music as one of our categories, Bellamarie!

Ann, what a lovely gift your granddaughter has given you. Thank you for sharing it.

It would be hard to choose one song of the season, wouldn't it? I thought about it and  addition to old favorites, one of my favorite  Christmas songs is Past Three O'Clock and a Cold and Frosty Morning. This is a beautiful arrangement: (which starts out VERY quietly but do not adjust your audio, it ends up with a roar!)

Here are the Cambridge singers singing it and here are the lyrics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N_ipQdIcY8

PAST THREE O'CLOCK
Old English Carole
(George Ratcliff Woodward)


past three o'clock,
on a cold frosty morning,
past three o'clock,
good morrow masters all.

born is a baby
gentle as may be,
son of the Eternal
Father supernal.

seraph choir singeth,
angel bell ringeth,
hark how they rhyme it,
time it and chime it!

mid earth rejoices
hearing such voices.
ne'ertofore so well
carolling nowell!

hinds o'er the pearly
dewy lawn early
seek the high stranger
laid in the manager.

cheese from the dairy
bring they for Mary,
and, not for money,
butter and honey.

light out of star-land
leadeth from far land
princes, to meet him,
worship and greet him.

myrrh from full coffer,
incense they offer;
nor is the golden
nugget withholden.

thus they: i pray you,
up sirs, nor stay you
till ye confess him
likewise and bless him.

We are hoping that each of you has enjoyed this Countdown to the Holidays, and we appreciate your contributions, they were wonderful.

We have a Winner!

We do have a winner of our Raffle of a Gift Certificate for $25.00 from either (winner's choice) Barnes and Noble or Amazon.

This year the winning number was selected by a person who has never been to the website. Asked to choose from numbers 1-138, the choice was 48.

And so Congratulations, Peggy Casing!  You have won the Holiday  Raffle!



I'll be in touch to find out which you'd like.

ALSO today we have a birthday!

Happy Happy Birthday, Callie!



Please join us on Boxing Day (December 26, the 2nd day of Christmas), to give your thoughts on our Christmas story, December 26- 31.  We'll discuss  this charming short story, an allegory of virtues, A Kidnapped Santa Claus  by  L. Frank Baum

Lyman Frank Baum (15 May 1856 – 6 May 1919) was an American author of children’s books, best known for writing The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. A Kidnapped Santa Claus is a Christmas-themed short story written by L. Frank Baum. It is a continuation of the story set forth in The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, telling how Santa Claus was kidnapped by “Daemons” in a plan to make children unhappy. It has been called one of Baum’s most beautiful stories and constitutes an influential contribution to the mythology of Christmas.

http://www.aesopfables.com/kidnap.html

Merry Merry Merry to you all!

[CallieOK]

Thank you so much, Ginnie.

Family is "bringing the party" to my house this evening.  There are only 8 of us - youngest is 19.  As far as I know, we'll play table games and enjoy "hearty snacks".
My oldest granddaughter, who moved to NYC in September, is home for a week.  I can't wait to give her a big hug!

May each and every one of you have a Very Merry Christmas blessed with all Good Things

[ANNIE]

A note to Bellamarie!  I have the recipe for the suet pudding without the suet. If you want the recipe, let me know and I will email it to you. 
Ginny et.al, I am having a 2 day visit with my two brothers and their families.  So, after I catch my breath, I will be here for the discussion of L. Frank Baum's short story. 😊💕💕

Merry Christmast to all!!🛍🎁🎉🎊

[bellamarie]

Annie,  I would love your recipe.  I had my two youngest grandchildren over today since their Mom & Dad had to work and they are out for Christmas break.  We went out to build a snowman and of course developed into a snowball fight.  We came in for hot cocoa with tiny marshmallows, out of no where Zak asked, "What is figgy pudding Nonnie?"  I told him I had no idea, I have never eaten it before or seen it.  So... I will try your recipe and give him some to try.

Congratulations Peggy for being our raffle winner!!  Happy Birthday Callie!!

May you all have the Merriest of Christmas and I will be back to discuss the short story on December 26th.

[ANNIE]

I will email it to you after the holidays if you wiil send me your email address or is it up on your member page here?  I just asked Ginny to put up the song for you!

[ginny]

Ann has asked me to put up this song of Bing Crosby singing White Christmas for you all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4l1qUbMHj4Y

[ANNIE]

Hey, Ginny, I can do it but only from my MacPro laptop.  So, I was able to bring it right here! Well, nuts, I have done this so many times and this time it didn't work.  Oh well, thanks.  Merry Christmas, everyone.  I also have the complete directions on how to make it from youtube video.  I will try to  see if I can transfer that one. 

[ANNIE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6fPL2ZQwz4

[ginny]

OH good for you, Ann, and the recipe for Christmas Pudding.

[bellamarie]

 Annie,  Thank you so much for the music & recipe! 

[PatH]

This discussion has made me realize something: there are a lot of things that are customary for my family at Christmastime, and I love the way we do things, but I'm like the whos in the Grinch story.  All I really need is people I love, and I'm richly blessed in having so many people to love and who love me.  The rest is just icing.

Have a glorious holiday, all of you.

[ANNIE]

Bella, Don't try that recipe as it's ingredients are not the same as my MILs I will look for hers and put them up after Christmas for you.  Merry Christmas to all on here! I am awaiting the arrival of my family and the dinner!  Just passing time!😊💕

[PeggyCasing]

Wow!  How great to have been the one chosen to receive a gift certificate!  (Ginny, Amazon is probably easiest, but either is great!!)  Truth is, reading all of your reflections has been a lovely gift for me as well.  The wisdom shared  and beautiful memories were such treasures. Thank you, all.  -Peggy

[ginny]

Wonderful, Peggy, and I agree, all of the comments here themselves were gifts.  We hope you enjoy your prize  tremendously!

Here we are on Boxing Day and the 2nd Day of Christmas, and we had hoped to have a short look at the short story A Kidnapped Santa Claus, which is shown here in the heading. For those unfamiliar with the concept of "headings,"  I'll repeat it here:


December 26- 31: Till January we'll we'll discuss  this charming short story, an allegory of virtues, A Kidnapped Santa Claus  by  L. Frank Baum

Lyman Frank Baum (15 May 1856 – 6 May 1919) was an American author of children’s books, best known for writing The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. A Kidnapped Santa Claus is a Christmas-themed short story written by L. Frank Baum. It is a continuation of the story set forth in The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, telling how Santa Claus was kidnapped by “Daemons” in a plan to make children unhappy. It has been called one of Baum’s most beautiful stories and constitutes an influential contribution to the mythology of Christmas.

http://www.aesopfables.com/kidnap.html

I guess to start us off, it might be good to see what your very first impression was of this tale?

 I was taken by so many different things at once when I read it, and I really had never heard of it before.

My first reaction to this is  wonder at  the levels of the caves. You can't get TO Malice without going thru Selfishness or Envy.  I was so interested in the progression. The Daemon of Selfishness is the  Cave one enters first.

Unless you enter that  Cave you won't progress to the others.

So then is one to assume Selfishness is the worst? Because if you did not enter into the Cave of the Demon of Selfishness,  you'd not move to the Daemon of Envy or his cave, nor the Daemon of Malice. Is that true in life, too?

Or is the Daemon of Selfishness not so bad?  I love the way the Daemons take on the personification of normal people, they are lonely and concerned.  But at one point I thought I saw.....a slip, right near the end?

It reminds me for some reason  of The Screwtape Letters, am I the only one?

But let's find out: what do YOU think? The floor is now open for your thoughts.

[Kristen]

Perhaps selfishness is not the worst.  It may be the least harmful by itself but is the entry way to more serious sins.  It's easy to be a little bit selfish once in a while.  Then it becomes a habit and leads to envy and malice.  Selfishness needs to be nipped in the bud before it leads to greater problems.  Although what I just wrote might mean it really is the worst since it is the start of a slippery slope.

I find it very interesting that the pathway to the first cave is broad and the cave entrance is "beautifully carved and decorated."  It's so appealing, just like putting ourselves first can be.

[ANNIE]

Ginny, I did tell you I won't be here first three days, didn't I? 5 more relatives are arriving today and will be here thru Wednesday.  I will read our short story at bedtime tonoght!

[bellamarie]

As a Christian who sees Christmas and Santa in a spiritual sense this little fable grabbed me instantly.  I immediately thought of an allegorical novel I had read many years ago, as I began my adult spiritual journey, dealing with family & friends who were not necessarily nice or wanting to be supportive or happy for me.  The book is, Hinds' Feet On High Places by Hannah Hurnard. 

In Kidnapping Santa I saw the different evils/sins as our human nature, also as the soldiers who came to capture Jesus. There will always be temptations of evil, there will always be people in our lives trying to steal our happiness, trying to tempt us to be envious, hateful, selfish and uncaring of others.  There will always be people who resent our goodwill, and will try to interfere with us doing good acts for others.  I saw Santa representing God, wanting to give us the grace of love, happiness and all things that are good.  The little ryls, knooks, pixies and fairies represented Jesus' apostles, who were with him and learned from him so when he was no longer with them, they were able to continue doing his work. 

Forgiveness represented Jesus, we must pass through all the other sins, selfishness, envy, hate etc., in order to come to the point of needing forgiveness.  Jesus came to free us of our sins through forgiveness, just as Forgiveness in the fable freed Santa.  Not that Santa had done anything to be forgiven for, but the significance was, it is through forgiveness we are freed.

The mistakes that were made delivering the presents represented to me that no one can do the work of Jesus, as well as he himself can, but each and everyone of us should at least attempt to be, and do as he taught us to do, continue his work.  It is through us, our good actions and being kind, loving, caring and giving to others, that we bring the joy to others and in turn to ourselves, therefore receiving God's gift of grace.

Just like in Hinds Feet On High Places, this allegory of Kidnapping Santa, helps us to recognize our human weaknesses, or temptations in life, and shows us the way to our own self happiness is through a higher power.  In both allegories emotions are used as the characters, so we can relate to the human nature in us, yet because of these emotions if we give into them, we can allow them to interfere or kidnap our very self, from the happiness and love, that God intends for us.

[Mkaren557]

I immediately thought that once again, as in A Christmas Carol, we have a simple story that as Bella pointed out has at least one other level of interpretation.  It also reminds me of the allegory Pilgrim's Progress where faults are personified as Daemons.  I also think that Baum, like Dickens, often writes to point out flaws in society; he was also political, very much a populist favoring the interests of farmers over those of the industrialists.  I am struck that it all begins with selfishness, which was the claim of those who "hated" the selfishness and the greed of the factory owners.  What lesson he is trying to teach!  Once one starts down the path of selfishness, one will fall into the other vices and become so "evil" that one will be capable of horrendous acts.  What is more abhorrent than kidnapping Santa and taking Christmas away from innocent children!

By the way, when the Wizard of Oz was published, a teacher in upstate New York analyzed it as a novel that was written to support the populist movement.  Baum immediately denied that and the article was discredited, but it still exists somewhere online. 

[ginny]

Gosh, I think you all have done a wonderful job in pointing out little details that I didn't pick up at first. And I agree with Karen that I think that this piece opens itself up to a lot of interpretations and some of which have been said here that I  wouldn't have thought of. So I'm really pleased to read them.   But I agree that there's more than one that's possible.

 And I also think it's a really good thing to read right after Christmas. I really have been thinking about it all day. Kristen, I  sat up straight when I saw your remark about the carved entrance to the Cave of Selfishness. When I first read it I really got kind of stuck on that ornateness and why that should be, what it might symbolize,  but when you mentioned that I couldn't remember any of the others, what did  they  look like and then when I compared them I saw something i hadn't initially...

"The Caves of the Daemons are five in number. A broad pathway leads up to the first cave, which is a finely arched cavern at the foot of the mountain, the entrance being beautifully carved and decorated. In it resides the Daemon of Selfishness. Back of this is another cavern inhabited by the Daemon of Envy. The cave of the Daemon of Hatred is next in order, and through this one passes to the home of the Daemon of Malice--situated in a dark and fearful cave in the very heart of the mountain. I do not know what lies beyond this. Some say there are terrible pitfalls leading to death and destruction, and this may very well be true. However, from each one of the four caves mentioned there is a small, narrow tunnel leading to the fifth cave--a cozy little room occupied by the Daemon of Repentance. And as the rocky floors of these passages are well worn by the track of passing feet, I judge that many wanderers in the Caves of the Daemons have escaped through the tunnels to the abode of the Daemon of Repentance, who is said to be a pleasant sort of fellow who gladly opens for one a little door admitting you into fresh air and sunshine again." 


I found this really interesting, for  several reasons. In reading about the broad  pathway that leads to the first Cave of Selfishness which is so ornately done it just seemed  to me that it symbolized a lot of things. And I kept hearing the verse "straight is the way and narrow is the path,"  but this path is not narrow, it's broad to the first Cave of Selfishness,  and I thought  there's a point being made here.   It's   almost like the  story of Pinocchio. Pinocchio in the original is not a child's  story at all,  it's very much along similar lines.  Do you remember in the Disney movie Pinocchio how attractive it was to go to this land where there was all sorts of bad stuff going on, doing all sorts of naughty things....temptation, as Bellamarie said....the reason I thought of The Screwtape Letters....demons AND temptation.   But it seems to be the only cave described that way.    Why? 

And again here we have five caves, not seven,  we have five,  and one of the Daemons  is Repentance, and that stopped  me too.   

The thing that really stopped  me, though,  in this very first read and I think you've all really touched on it but the thing that really stopped me in the first visit was the word  you.

 The Daemon  of Repentance "opens the door to  you.   gladly".... he's changed his pronouns, hasn't he?  He's changed from an experience that we're not really connected with; we  have five caves and they're all owned by demons..... most of us don't like to think we know any demons but the Daemon  of Repentance will open the door to you.  That's the first time, I think the reader has been mentioned in the story. I think to me that was pretty clear that we are talking about every man and how he may go astray. 

 And I really appreciated the background on Baum,  Karen, that you provided-  it's interesting that you see a  parallel with A Christmas Carol as well. I wonder what an author can expect or mean  when he deliberately writes  an allegory--- it's impossible for people not to see in the characters symbolism of greater principles. 

 But in that same vein many puzzling  things emerge. Why is Repentance  a Daemon? Does Repentance  himself slip at the end a little bit, did you see anything in this little story that indicates he he slipped? What can it mean?  Is that why he's considered among the five caves?   This is quite a little puzzle we have before us ---it's not a simple little child's story at all. I guess it can be read like one or to a child.

I'm still trying to figure out which of the first four Daemons  is the worst?

Annie, enjoy your family. We look forward to your comments when you return.

[bellamarie]

MKaren, I also could see a parallel to A Christmas Carol.
 As far as which demon/evil/sin is worse, I'm not so certain one is worst than the other.  Each of them would be considered venial sins.  Although one can lead to another, all are forgivable in this allegory because you are able to reach the cave of redemption, and through redemption, you are free.

[Mkaren557]

I meant to say that like The Christmas Carol this story is a relatively simple story on the surface, but there are many layers of interpretation that we can apply to it.  I think your interpretation, Bella, is wonderful.  I gave it a political interpretation, and there may be others.  To me that is a mark of good literature.  It has depth.
Repentence is a daemon because you must face your sins to repent and after that happens, you see the light of day.  Repenting is not an easy thing; it is a daemon in itself.