Author Topic: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell  (Read 42873 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2017, 02:57:02 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. 
We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



January Book Club Online

Cranford

by Elizabeth Gaskell

Published in 1853, Cranford is the story of a town that is
"in the possession of the Amazons."

Some delightful older women are battling to preserve the way of life and
the social structure in Cranford in the face of the "progress"
brought by the Industrial Revolution. 

Join us we read this autobiographical novel and get to know
the ladies of Cranford.

Discussion Schedule

Based on the episodes as they were published in Household Words.
(Depending how comfortable we are with the rate of reading and discussion, we can be flexible with the dates.)

  • January 2-11. Pre-discussion of the Victorian period, the author, and any questions you may have about the discussion process.
  • January 11- 15 Episode 1 Our Society at Cranford - Chapters 1-2
  • January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4
  • January 20-23  Episode 3 Memory at Cranford - Chapters 5-6
  • January 24-27  Episode 4 Visiting at Cranford - Chapters 7-8
  • January 28-31  Episode 5 The Great Cranford Panic - Chapters 9-11
  • February 1-4    Episode 6 Stopped Payment at Cranford - Chapters 12-13
  • February 5-9    Episode 7 Friends in Need at Cranford - Chapter 14
  • February 10-13 Episode 8 A Happy Return to Cranford - Chapters 15-16
  • February 14      Final Thoughts. Happy Valentines Day

Some Topics to Focus on As You Read
  • The structure of society
  • The place of women in society
  • The narrator
  • The men in Cranford
  • Relationships among women
  • Changes that come to Cranford and attitudes about those changes

Relevant Links
  • Cranford Gutenberg online for free.
  • Victorian Web  This amazing link is for all things Victorian,  begun in 1987 with new information added each year.

Discussion Leader: mkaren557
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2017, 04:01:24 PM »
I was just about to say, Barb, here in the UK we really struggle with American measurements for baking. I do have a conversion chart, but it all seems so vague compared to pounds and ounces or grams and kilos.

My mother may not be Victorian but we definitely had certain spoons (usually ones that had become to old for the table) for cooking, and certain knives. And now I do it too - I have a large table knife that I use to make scones, and a particular coffee spoon that I always use to measure baking powder. Works for me. I don't much like those fashionable cookery books (Jamie Oliver is a prime culprit) who like to say 'grab a handful of this, add a few lugs of that' - it may be OK for a celebrity chef, but baking does not work like that. I don't think he makes many cakes. Mary Berry would never cook in this cavalier fashion!

I recall reading somewhere that, whilst we all think of Mrs Beeton as the first person to produce a cookery book, and the person to whom all Victorian cooks turned for instruction, Eliza Acton's book was in fact much more commonly used.

Rosemary

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2017, 04:48:33 PM »
Rosemary years ago I found and have a converted measuring cup made of aluminum - on one side are the American Measurements and on the other the British and on the third side are metric measurements - one of my trips I came back with a cookbook and tried various sweets but our flour and butter is different so I never could match the taste as I remembered it.

My mom had a special china cup reserved and a certain table spoon - I can still hear her in my head as she dithered over how to measure a teaspoon - our teaspoons were deep and held nearly as much as a tablespoon -  trying to measure a third of a table spoon was almost impossible - and then the cup broke - I think either my sister or I dropped it - oh oh oh - mom's world had come to an end - she had no idea how different another cup - she was beside herself - even grandma got in on the event attempting to come to some solution - in spite of her lack of equipment as we know it today she baked wonderful birthday cakes and dozens of various cookies for Christmas - the goal was to fill a table cloth lined bushel basked and most years she did it...

As to our story - now I must find some of Johnson's letters to see what she thought was worthy reading - love it...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2017, 05:09:10 PM »
Wow - his letters - read the first on to his wife - tender in all its eighteenth century formality

https://archive.org/details/lettersjohnson01hilluoft
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2017, 05:37:55 PM »
Karen:
Quote
I remember I asked Sister Imelda what adultery was?  It caused great chaos.

I never asked because I thought I knew.  I thought it meant watering the milk. ::)

Jonathan, I've never seen Dumas' cookbook, though I've seen him quoted.

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2017, 06:00:59 PM »
Thank you all for some great Sunday evening conversation.  I loved the discussions about cookbooks and cooking. I learned a lot about which book is the best and how complicated conversions are .  Rosemary. is Great Britain on a different system than the metric system?

That definition of adultery would have satisfied me.  Do you know how you came up with that?  I knew that there was something about adultery and coveting wives that made adults laugh when I asked.  I think I merged the two and said that adultery was when you wanted someone else wife.I was close.

Thank You, Barbara, for posting the link to Dr. Johnson's letters.

 

PatH

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2017, 06:11:52 PM »
Quote
That definition of adultery would have satisfied me.  Do you know how you came up with that?
I knew the word adulteration and assumed it was the same thing.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2017, 06:41:39 PM »
The commandment that I learned said thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife - no explanation needed - when we asked about covet it was explained as wanting something that belonged to someone else - of course no one questioned that a wife 'belonged' to her husband  ;) - I am trying to remember the first time I heard the word adultery. I think I was an adult and even then cannot remember - look at all I missed but then the daughter of the lady next door who was one of my mom's best friends dated the local parish priest and no one said the word adultery - so I guess we either lived in an area of loose morals or accepted good people do things or adults were too busy watching the cherries, pears and apples for the picking stage so they could make jam as more important  ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2017, 08:09:00 PM »
I am here to say that I think we did a great job on the first episode.  Tomorrow love comes to Cranford.  We will get to know all the characters better.  From now on we will be jumping around time wise.  I can't leave Episode 1 without mentioning Miss Betty Barker and the Alderney cow.  What a great small town story!  True or not, I can imagine its being passed on from generation to generation.

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #129 on: January 16, 2017, 12:21:46 AM »
My favorite quote in this section is:  "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him'."  Job 13:15
I love how Miss Jessie in the most tragic of times turned to her faith.

There were a few parts in these two chapters that either had me stumped and/or laughing out loud such as:

pg. 6  that you are never to stay longer than a quarter of an hour."  "But am  I to look at my watch?  How am I to find out when a quarter of an hour has passed?"  'You must keep thinking about the time, my dear, and not allow yourself to forget it in conversation.'

When I read this it made me think of the Fairy Godmother speaking to Cinderella, about leaving at the stroke of midnight.   :)

We kept ourselves to short sentences and small talk, and we were punctual to our time.

Do you suppose this prevented them from gossiping, which helped them remain close friends?  Although Miss Jenkyns did manage to say the snide remark about Miss Jessie's dimples, but came to regret it.

pg. 7 This totally cracked me up....When Mrs. Forrester was being pretentious using a little charity-school maiden:

who now state in sate, pretending not to know what cakes were sent up; though she knew, and we knew, and she knew that we knew, and we knew that she knew that we knew, she had been busy all the morning making tea-bread and sponge-cakes.

This stumped me until reading the footnote:

pg. 14 The literary disagreement between Miss Jenkyns and Captain Brown,

"I consider it vulgar, and below the dignity of literature, to publish in numbers."  'How was the "Rambler" published ma'am?  asked Captain Brown, in a low voice; which I think Miss Jenkyns could not have heard.

Footnote 21consider it vulgar...in numbers;  Because of the cheapness of individual numbers, such publishing in parts was a huge popular success.  The fifteenth number of Pickwick Papers sold 40,000 copies.  This became a standard way of publishing novels, as did serialization in periodicals.  The answer to Captain Brown's next comment is: in parts.  The Rambler was a series of essays, all but five by Johnson, published in 208 numbers twice weekly. 1750-52.  It went through ten printings in his lifetime. 

Another laugh out loud yet puzzling part in this section is when the narrator has returned to Cranford telling us:

pg. 20 The greatest event was, that Miss Jenkyns had purchased a new carpet for the drawing-room.  Oh the busy work Miss Matty and I had in chasing the sunbeams, as they fell in an afternoon right down on this carpet through the blindless window!  We spread newspapers over the places, and sat down to our book or our work, and, lo! in quarter of an hour the sun had moved, and was blazing away on a fresh spot; and down again we went on our knees to alter the position of then newspapers.  We were very busy, too, one whole morning before Miss Jenkyns gave her party, in following her directions, and in cutting out and stitching together pieces of newspaper, so as to form little paths to every chair, set for the expected visitors, lest their shoes might dirty or defile the purity of the carpet.  Do you make paper paths for every guest to walk upon in London?

Rosemary, maybe you can answer this question for us.

I was laughing out loud imagining them chasing the sunbeams. What is that song about chasing sunbeams? 

One last laugh out loud for me was the Alderney cow Miss Betty Barker looked upon as a daughter.

pg. 10  Captain Brown's decided, "Get her a flannel waistcoat and flannel drawers, ma'am, if you wish to keep her alive.  But my advice is, kill the poor creature at once."





“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #130 on: January 16, 2017, 12:50:14 AM »
Karen and PatH.,  I cracked up at your comments about asking a nun about adultery and covet.  I teach third grade CCD (religion) class and the night I had to teach about the sacraments knowing the sanctity of marriage would come up, I just knew I was going to get hit with a question from one of my students about divorce.  Sure enough not even minutes into the lesson a boy raised his hand and asks, "If when you get married the two become one, then what happens when they get a divorce like my parents?"  Oh the dreaded topic!  And yes, the commandment lesson brought up the covet and adultery questions.  In this day and age there are NO shy students.  They are loaded with the give me the scoop and give it to me now!!  Always ready and willing to challenge the teacher.  Ughhh.... that is where I fully depend on the Holy Spirit to jump in.  :)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2017, 01:05:37 AM »
Oh Yes, the story of the cow was a laugh out loud read wasn't it - slap stick at its best -

And we are in luck - here are links to the Johnson essays in the Rambler by date - they are all here in three links.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080919092243/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Joh1Ram.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20080709091410/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Joh4All.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20080606030313/http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/Joh4Ram.html


And here is a link to all his essays - from the Rambler - the Adventurer - and the Idler

http://www.johnsonessays.com/category/the-rambler/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2017, 09:43:45 AM »
When I grew up the standard measures for baking were pounds and ounces. A pound is, I think, about 500g, and there are 16 ounces in a pound. My weighing scales still have weights for 2lb, 1lb, 8oz, 4oz, 2oz, 1oz, 1/2oz and 1/4oz, and that is the system I still use. Many of our cookery books are still published with these weights, even if they also publish the metric ones.

My children were all taught the metric system at school. My elder daughter is happy to use either, but the younger one uses this as an excuse not to do any baking - 'I don't understand your old books'. Some cookery books do only show metric weights - notably those of Nigel Slater (whom I love) and Nigella Lawson (a bit lukewarm about her...)

It's worth noting, too, that the UK pint measure is not the same as the US one. Ours has 20 fl oz and I think yours only has 16.

As for putting paper on the carpet to stop the sun fading it - well, I've never seen that done, but I do know someone who even today has her entire staircarpet covered in plastic to stop anyone spoiling it.  Hard floors - wood or lino - are much more popular here now, but I must say I do like a nice cosy carpet in the sitting room (even if my cats have shredded mine).

My grandmother was also very protective about any item of new furniture - I suppose it came from having so little and having to scrimp and save to buy anything. As was the custom in the early part of the last century, my mother and her siblings were never allowed in the sitting room. There were 5 of them and 2 parents living in a very small council house, but despite this the 'front room' had to be kept for 'special' and was only used on high days and holidays, or if someone that they deemed 'above' them - eg the doctor - came to see them. (The children were expected to be out in the street.) This view of the sitting room continued right through my childhood, but only at my grandmother's house - in our own house we used the sitting room every day (it was the only place in the entire freezing house that there was a fire...)

I too loved the bit about the cow and her jacket. Eccentricity at its harmless best. I do not, however, favour the recent fashion for putting your dog - usually a 'toy' breed - in a pink or blue sweater and generally dressing it up like a child.

As for adultery, I really don't think I knew what it meant till I left home. I do remember my Family Law lecturer banging on about 'Adultery being a symptom not a cause' of matrimonial failure. She was very happily married - I am not sure that her description was a fair one for everyone, but that's for another discussion.

Rosemary

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2017, 11:39:30 AM »
Thank you, Rosemary for clearing up my confusion about the measurement situation.  Someone told me with the metric system that we get into trouble when we try to do conversions on everything.  That we need to think in liters, kilometers.  If I am on a trip in Canada, for instant I do that by the end of the trip. 


rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2017, 11:57:17 AM »
Hmmm - I always convert! Most of our older cookery books have conversion charts at the front, and all they say is that you should stick to one thing or the other, ie don't put in 500g of flour and 4oz of butter, measure them all with the same system.

Rosemary

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #135 on: January 16, 2017, 01:01:11 PM »
The narrator is back after a passage of time.  It seems that she had no thinking that she would be going back to stay for any length of time.  Yet both Miss Pole summon her.  Now, she not only is a narrator but also a character in the novel.  What impact does that have on the narration.  Is she a reliable narrator?  Off we go on installment 2.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #136 on: January 16, 2017, 01:02:19 PM »
Such a nasty day here - rainy and grey - holiday so there are no school sounds - should do some grocery shopping but cannot make it past staring out the window - trying to imagine a day like this in Cranford and what the ladies would do with themselves - no way they could put on some music - they had to lift up themselves...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #137 on: January 16, 2017, 01:24:13 PM »
Rosemary, that makes logical sense to stay with the same measuring system when using a recipe.

I have to laugh about the protecting the furniture.  My mother did that years ago.  I actually left the covers over my lamp shades back in the 70's but stopped many years ago.  Now, for the dog sweaters I have to admit my sweet little Shitzu has not only a variety of sweaters to dress up for the holidays, but when the Olympics were on this summer he got a new red, white and blue USA jersey!  He also has a yellow slicker raincoat, and a winter coat.  I did order him some black dog boots but they would not stay on.  He is indeed my precious baby.  He is spoiled rotten and knows it!  When I take his sweater off he shivers.  I do keep him trimmed because their type of hair mattes easily.  When he goes for his walk around the block he struts like a fashionista!!  :)

One more thing I wanted to mention before going on to the next chapters is:

pg. 22  Jenny came back with a white face of terror,  "Oh, ma'am!  oh, Miss Jenkyns, ma'am!  Captain Brown is killed by them nasty cruel railroads!"  and she burst into tears.

In my footnotes it says: them nasty cruel railroads.... Railways had got off to a bad start when the former President of the Board of Trade, William Huskisson, was killed by a locomotive at the opening of the Liverpool to Manchester railway line in 1830.  In remoter districts they were regarded as dangerous and destructive, even in the 1840s when 'railway mania' took hold.  Dickens writes of how their construction devastates the landscape in Dombey and Son (1848), in which the villainous Carter is killed by a train.

I have always feared trains since my Daddy was killed by one in 1955.  He and his coworkers who worked for the railroad were on their way to work early in the morning.  They were in a pick up truck that had benches in the back where nine of the men sat, and three men were in the front cab.  A train struck the truck and all nine men in the back were killed, the three in the cab were injured severely.  I was only two years old when this happened, so I never got the chance to really even know my Daddy.  This accident left my mother a widow with seven small children.  I have never really known the details of the accident. My mother and all seven of us siblings picture was in the newspaper with numerous articles.   I am the little one in the back row on the left side next to my mother. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #138 on: January 16, 2017, 01:25:10 PM »
Hi Barb,

We have been fortunate to have a much better day today, with blue skies and warmer temps than we have had for some time.

I wonder if the ladies of Cranford would have been much affected by the weather, as they probably spent a good deal of time indoors anyway (is that right Mkaren?)  But then Jane Eyre starts with 'There was no possibility of a walk that day' (or something like that) so maybe a walk was the highlight of their day?

I have to admit that i quite enjoy wet or snowy days if I don't have to go out - but it's easy to say that when one can go out most days, and can even go out on those days if one wants to.

I agree about the lack of school sounds - if I am indoors I do like to hear 'normal' life going along outside - Sundays can be depressing. It reminds me of the very few times I was ill in bed as a child - it always seemed so odd to hear other children coming home from school, and the day passing without you being a part of it.

Are we on the next two chapters now?

Rosemary

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #139 on: January 16, 2017, 01:33:59 PM »
I love snowy, rainy inside days!  I am constantly going here and there and when the weather gives me reason to stay in I snuggle up and enjoy whatever I enjoy doing such as read, knit, crochet, watch tv., or write!  You noticed I did not include bake.  My hubby has taken over my kitchen since retirement and thinks he owns it.  I'm not a Cranford Amazon..... I love having him around!!

Yes, Rosemary we are now beginning:  January 16-19  Episode 2 A Love Affair at Cranford - Chapters 3-4

Can't wait to see what the ladies are up to next!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2017, 01:35:49 PM »
Yes, we are now on Chapters 3-4, unless you have more to say on the last section.

Bella, that is an awful story about the death of your father.  Did your mother raise you all by herself?  Thank you for sharing the photo from the paper. 

Barbara, I wonder if the ladies used the heat and candles on cold, damp, dark days?

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2017, 01:36:02 PM »
Oh my Bellamarie, what a tragic thing to happen, I am so sorry. My father also died young, but from illness rather than injury. How did your mother cope? It's lovely that you've been able to keep that cutting all these years.

It's interesting how attitudes to railways have changed. We now see them as much 'cleaner' than cars, less polluting and generally a lot safer, but our problem is that since some government or other privatised them they have been woefully starved of cash by companies that are only interested in paying out big dividends to keep their shareholders happy. Our East Coast line (which runs from the north of Scotland to London) used to be great, but now it belongs to Virgin and is awful. My own mother travelled (with a very expensive first class ticket) to Aviemore from London at Christmas, and had no heating all the way there and back - she was frozen. There were also problems with food, the lavatories, etc. In cities - especially in London - commuters pay very high prices for tickets and end up never getting a seat and constantly having their trains cancelled. It's a shame as it used to be a wonderful transport system.

You'll have to excuse my opinionated statements about dogs and their wardrobes! I'm sure yours is very cute! - I am just used to huge retrievers and other gun dogs. And I have to own up to the fact that when we had a spaniel my daughter used to put a towel round his head and call him Yoda. He loved it. We're all as daft as one another :-)

Rosemary


rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #142 on: January 16, 2017, 01:44:30 PM »
Re the narrator, i am not sure how we can tell if she is reliable. I'm afraid I still find her a bit annoying and smug! I am re-reading those two chapters so I will try to think about how her involvement affects the narrative. She does get quite excited when she thinks Miss Matty has a chance with her old beau. I can believe that a father of those times would try to stop a marriage if he didn't think the groom was good enough, but how awful to have your sister intervening too.

Rosemary

CallieOK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #143 on: January 16, 2017, 04:36:01 PM »
Another question about the narrator:   There have been three questions posed to "someone" in London:

..Have you any red silk umbrellas in London?

...Do you ever see cows dressed in grey flannel in London?

....Do you make paper paths for every guest to walk upon in London?

Who is this person "in London"?

Jonathan

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #144 on: January 16, 2017, 04:40:40 PM »
I'm trying to imagine the author perplexed by the question, do my readers find me reliable, when she is so obviously writing in an impressionistic style. Wouldn't she sooner be trying to stimulate our imaginations? And succeeding very well.

As for lamentable weather, she wouldn't have the courage after what Dickens conjured up in Bleak House.

I would dearly like to know how to measure a pinch of something,salt, for example. I argued in the kitchen last night over that with my son. He would have it as much as one can pick up with two fingers, but I'm convinced it's 1/8 of a teaspoon, or half of that. I lost my darling wife last year and I miss her nowhere more than in the kitchen.

About the Alderney cow. A reliability note creeps into this little story, when the author has Captain Brown 'startled one day when he found his advice so highly esteemed as to make some counsel which he had given in jest to be taken in sober, serious earnest.'

It's the Cranford ladies that I find unreliable.

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #145 on: January 16, 2017, 05:22:57 PM »
I thought all these London questions were rhetorical jokes - ie 'look at how smart Cranford ladies are, they even cover up their carpets - I bet you don't do that in London, no matter how much more stylish you think you are'.

Jonathan,  I am so sorry about the loss of your wife. I did think a 'pinch' of salt meant just that - whatever you could pinch - but I'm happy to be corrected, it could well be a set amount. This is what it says on the Nigella Lawson website:

'There are a variety of opinions as to the specific quantity for a pinch of salt and either 1/16 or 1/8 teaspoon (0.3 or 0.6 ml) seem to be the most commonly quoted. However as most people do not have spoons this small the amount of salt that you can pick up between your forefinger and thumb would be fine as a measuremant of a pinch of salt.'

How do you find the ladies unreliable?

It's after 10pm here in the UK so I'm off to bed and will read the rest of tonight's discussion in the morning. Keep going folks!

Rosemary

JoanK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #146 on: January 16, 2017, 07:08:26 PM »
How interesting about the cookbooks. JONATHAN: I would love to see Dumas' cookbook as well.

When you're interested in something, it crops up everywhere. Yesterday, PBS started a series "VICTORIA." did anyone else watch it? It started with her ascension to the throne, and her attempts to establish  herself as a monarch, not a foolish "girl" to be manipulated by the men around her.

nlhome

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #147 on: January 16, 2017, 10:39:11 PM »
I watched my grandmother baking, and her pinch was literally that, what she pinched between two fingers when she was adding salt or other spices. Her recipes that she wrote out use "pinch." Some referred to "handful" of flour. I never had the courage to cook like that, but my husband makes the best pie crust and doesn't measure the water (I still remember my mother's eyes when she watched him put the mixing bowl under a running faucet!).

I enjoy the narrator; at times I think she's laughing a bit at her Cranford friends, like the moving of newspapers around the carpet to keep it from fading. But other times she seems very concerned about them.  I think she's got a good eye for the idiosyncrasies of Cranford's folk.

Today was a quiet day here, with ice coating everything so that we pretty much needed to stay inside, no walk , something I usually do.

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #148 on: January 17, 2017, 09:18:51 AM »
I apologize for being absent much of yesterday.  Usually I float through relaxed days, but it was one thing after another.  I will be more attentive today.  Thank you Rosemary, Calliein, Jonathan and Nilhome for your observations and questions.
My questions about the narrator and her reliability were because it is difficult when you are part of the story you are telling to be objective and fair.  That being said, if you see nothing here,don't worry. 
     ..Have you any red silk umbrellas in London?

...Do you ever see cows dressed in grey flannel in London?

....Do you make paper paths for every guest to walk upon in London?


Calliein, I think that Rosemary gave a good answer to your question.  I would add that the author knows that most of her readers are in London.

Jonathan
It's the Cranford ladies that I find unreliable.  In what sense do you see them as unreliable? 

nlhome-- It used to drive me crazy when my mother would give me a recipe and use indefinite measures for ingredients.  Now, I listen to myself doing the same thing.

Thanks for the tip about Victoria on PBS, Joan.  I need to record it. 

Today is beautiful on the Gulf Coast.  The nicest part of these winter days is the low humidity.  I can even turn off the air conditioning.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #149 on: January 17, 2017, 11:14:09 AM »
awww - how faithful her poor heart had been in its sorrow and its silence 

It reminds me of many today who plug on with sorrow in silence – I’m seeing many a homeless person that has shut their hearts, faithful to the sorrow and silence of what is no more.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #150 on: January 17, 2017, 11:29:52 AM »
JoanK., Thank you for reminding us of the PBS Victoria.  I had posted in the library section earlier and completely forgot about when it was to preview.  For anyone who missed the first episode here is a link to watch it online.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/episodes/victoria-s1-e1/

I must go out to use up my gift certificates before the store has it's final closing so I will be back later to discuss these next two chapters.

Jonathan, my deepest sympathy to you on the loss of your beloved wife.  I have always used my fingers as a "pinch of salt."  No measurements required.  It's good to hear you and your son are sharing time together baking, I am certain your wife's presence is there with the two of you. 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

CallieOK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #151 on: January 17, 2017, 12:24:58 PM »
MKaren,  I had the same idea about Gaskill thinking most of her readers would be in London.   I'm enjoying what I see as her rather "sly" sense of humor.

JoanK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #152 on: January 17, 2017, 01:33:48 PM »
JONATHAN: so sorry. We're thinking of you.

JoanK

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #153 on: January 17, 2017, 01:36:53 PM »
well, this story did bring a tear to my eye. And a scowl for Mrs. Jenkins. Not sure I can forgive her, as her sister has.

I'm sorry to learn that /Paris is so dangerous to the health. I managed to survive it.

rosemarykaye

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #154 on: January 17, 2017, 02:34:38 PM »
Haha Joan - the only 'dangers' I encounter there are red wine, butter and Brie...

Mkaren557

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2017, 04:14:20 PM »
     Certainly, Joan, Miss Jenkins had absolute rule over Miss Matty in that household and after Deborah's death she still has a hold on Muss Mathilda.  I had a boss once who ruled with an iron fist, but was very kind to anyone in need.  To make a long story short, it was my first job and my husband and I had little or no money.  I had very few things to wear to work and I guess I didn't dress very professionally.  One Friday afternoon, she called me to her office and angrily told me that I needed to dress differently. than I was.  She said she was embarrassed by what I was wearing when she came to my office with a guest.  I was devastated.  I spent the whole weekend trying to pull together outfits from clothes in the back of my closet.  When I got to work on Monday morning, there was a whole box of new clothes for me, which she had made over the weekend.  I think Miss Jenkins was like that as she ministered to the Browns and even before that when she accepted the Captain into Cranford society.
     What about Mr. Holbrook?  How did you feel about him?  The story of the peas was wonderful, but I'm not sure I would have been very comfortable in his house.  Did he seem to be a member of the gentry?
     

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #156 on: January 17, 2017, 10:01:50 PM »
In chapters three & four the narrator is no longer just an observer, she has become more of a participant.  We see more of her personality, she seems to be insinuating herself into Miss Matilda's life more than I would have expected, since she at this point seems to me to be a visiting friend who comes and goes at different intervals.  I found it just a little strange she walked the gardens with Mr. Holbrook twice, rather it be Miss Matilda.  She went behind the back of Miss Matilda with her servants and that seemed completely out of place.  Staying with someone does not give you the right to make decisions in any way especially with servants.

Callie, I saw those three questions posed as rhetorical, a bit tongue in cheek, Gaskell's dry humor.

JoanK.,  I am with you, I felt very sad for Miss Matilda being denied the love and family with Mr. Holbrook, because Miss Jenkyns felt he was not in proper rank for a Rector's daughter.  I suspect this happened often back in this era.

I was lukewarm with Mr. Holbrook, I wasn't sure what to make of him saying to Miss Matilda,  pg.  39  "Matty__Miss Matilda__Miss Jenkyns!  God bless my soul!  I should not have known you.  How are you?  how are you?'  He kept shaking her hand in a way which proved the warmth of his friendship; but repeated so often, as if to himsel, 'I should not have known you!"  that any sentimental romance which I might be inclined to build, was quite done away with by his manner.

So what are we to make of this?  If I ran into someone I had cared for intimately years later and he said,  "I should not have known you!" It would probably make me question his sincerity.  I mean how could he not have known her?  Why did he come back and need to leave so quickly to see Paris?  Was he being sincere, was he escaping having to be committed to Miss Matilda now that her sister was gone and would not be in the way of the marriage?  Did he not like the changes in Miss Matilda, and is he referring to her looks?  He seemed to give more attention to our narrator than to Miss Matilda.  He just seemed a bit addled to me involved more in his books than people.

I was confused with this statement.....  I am happy to say my client, Miss Matilda, also left the shop in an equally bewildered state, not having purchased either green or red silk. 

If this is still the narrator then why did she refer to Miss Matilda as "my client"?   The narrator is not the shopkeeper.  How can Miss Matilda be considered her client, if anything the narrator is a friend/visitor in Miss Matilda's home.

The definition of a client: a customer or a person who uses services.
Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/client#s0ylZeQy46cslhwk.99

These two chapters left me a bit bewildered.

In my footnotes as far as that wicked Paris it says:A probable reference in the iniquity of the French Revolution (1789) rather than the later idea that the French were sexually immoral.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #157 on: January 17, 2017, 11:50:59 PM »
Thanks for the sympathy. My wife and I had a long and happy marriage. But then again, it always surprised me how much she could pinch with two fingers. So I prefer a different measure. She was an avid reader; but then she was a professional college librarian. She certainly put me on to a lot of good books. Willed them to me in fact.

Miss Matty's plight rings so true. Her dead sister rules her life, like never before. You're right, Bella. The narrator, Mary Smith, is it? seems ambiguous about her feelings for Miss Matty. Until, and none too soon, at the end of Ch 4, she, Miss Matty, 'startled, submits to Fate and Love.' This book certainly moves along at a good clip. I have only a vague feeling as yet about the Cranford ladies and unreliability.

Perhaps London served as a reality check for the author. A lifetime ago I made a domicile switch from NYC to a 'Cranford' in Canada's midwest. It was awesome in contrast. A big sky but a very close social horizon.

I'm not sure Miss Matty has forgiven her sister. How can she? Her sister could do no wrong.

Alas, it's Cranford that is dangerous to health. Captain Brown is gone. Mr Holbrook is gone. Deborah is gone. Is it fate? Or is it lack of imagination on the author's part?

My imagination is still running on the dangers of Paris to one's health. There was the story we told each other when we were young, about the guy who came back from Paris with a serious case of syphillis picked up on the left bank. The fool went back when he was feeling better. And met the same young beautiful streetwalker. 'Have I got something for you', she told him. 'Even better than the last time.' 'What is it this time?' he asked her. 'Cancer'?

A much funnier, but far more serious encounter was described by the then eminent evangelist Charles Templeton in his book: An Anecdotal Memoir., He was working with Billy Graham after WWII, heading up Youth For Christ. The two went for a walk in Paris, had a close encounter with two young ladies, came to their senses and ran for their spirtual lives. Literally.

A huge effort was made in Victorian times to save the fallen women. Prime Ministers were known to do missionary work in the streets of London. I'm sorry. This book is about Cranford.

Jonathan

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #158 on: January 18, 2017, 12:06:10 AM »
They had meant to pray with the girls in their room. I must find the book. The dangers of doing missionary work. Kendrick Bangs, the American writer of a century ago, had a humorous story of the missionary, delighted at the invention of the telephone. He could now 'call' the cannibals, and needn't run the risk of ending up in a pot, in some farflung post.

bellamarie

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Re: CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell
« Reply #159 on: January 18, 2017, 01:47:38 AM »
Jonathan, 
Quote
The narrator, Mary Smith, is it?

Hmmm...... where ever did you come up with this name?  I was questioning why the narrator used the words, "my client" did I miss something? 

Okay now I had to go back and reread this scene and there is another thing that jumped out at me. 

pg.  37  Very soon after__ at least during my long visit to Miss Mitilda__I had the opportunity of seeing Mr. Holbrook;seeing, too, his first encounter with his former love, after thirty or forty years ' separation.  when a tall, thin, Don Quixote-looking old man came into the shop for some woollen gloves.  I had never seen the person, (who was rather striking) before, and I watched him rather attentively, while Miss Matty listened to the shopman. 

pg. 41  He looked more like my idea of Don Quixote than ever, and yet the likeness was only external.

footnote:  Don Quixote looking old manIn Don Quixote de la Mancha (1605-15), a satire by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (1547-1616),  the hero who goes questing for chivalric adventures is a mild amiable man in rusty armour on a worn-out old horse.[/i]

Was our narrator smitten with Mr. Holbrook, was mentioning the resemblance, his love for books and needing to go to Paris the clues he would die?  This book is beginning to feel like Hansel and Gretel, Gaskell is dropping crumbs along the way. 

Alonso Quixana is an older gentleman who lives in La Mancha, in the Spanish countryside. He has read many of the books of chivalry and as a result, he has lost his wits, and he decides to roam the country as a knight-errant named Don Quixote de La Mancha.

Cervantes becomes a party to his own fiction, even allowing Sancho and Don Quixote to modify their own histories and comment negatively upon the false history published in their names. In the end, the beaten and battered Don Quixote forswears all the chivalric truths he followed so fervently and dies from a fever.


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how+did+don+quixote+die

Jonathan I am with you this story is moving right along.  If you aren't careful you will miss Gaskell's little nuggets she is dropping.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden