CRANFORD by Elizabeth Gaskell

[Mkaren557]

Bella, the use of the word client here is interesting.  I found two definitions of the word that sort of apply.  Dictionary.com says that a client is one who is provided services of another; one who is getting support or care of a patron.  On this particular outing the narrator says she is helping Miss Matty to decide if any of the colored silks in the store match the tablecloth.  So in that sense she in providing a service to Miss Matty, she is the patron and Miss Matty the client. Others may have a better explanation.
The narrator's name is Mary Smith which is revealed at the end of the book, but we can refer to her by name now if you like.
Jonathan- as an aside, "Ladies of the night" were numerous during the Victorian Period.  I always figured that Victorian women middle class or above were, as I said, either Eve or Mary.  So decent women were not expected to enjoy sex, so men would seek to meet there needs elsewhere.  Prostitution was often the object of attempts at social reform, but those attempts were not very successful.  This is not related to the ladies og Cranford, but it is about Victorian life.
       Back to dinner at Mr. HOlbrooks and we mustn't for get to talk about the servant problem and the coming of Martha.

[bellamarie]

Yes, I saw those two definitions but felt it an odd choice of words "my client" to use regarding the narrator and Miss Matty.  I suppose the fact she was helping her pick out a color of silk could be considered a service, but it seems more like a friend helping a friend rather than a service. 

So, now we know the narrator's name is Mary Smith.  She sure had an active role in these two chapters.

My take on the servants Fanny and Martha wanting to date and Miss Matty not allowing it was Gaskell covering the expectations of servants to keep their private lives away from the house.  In Cranford as they say, men are few and far between so these young girls hoping to marry would obviously be interested in men, the skulking around in the kitchen would not be appropriate or safe. The men the servants would be dating are far below the ranks and could not necessarily be trusted not to steal from the house or do harm to Miss Matty.  I do like how Miss Matty decided to allow Martha to date, giving her the opportunity to find love and happiness something she missed out on. 

[JoanK]

BELLAMARIE:" I do like how Miss Matty decided to allow Martha to date, giving her the opportunity to find love and happiness something she missed out on."

Yes, that was a nice touch by Gaskell, introducing this subplot  allows a happy ending to an unhappy story. Gaskell seems to want upbeat endings: the first story ended with the joke about Dickens.

Were these serialized one chapter at a time, or two?

On "my client": I read that as meaning "the client of the shopkeeper that I was with."

""Ladies of the night" were numerous during the Victorian Period. " My reading of "Behind Closed Bedroom Doors" is useful here. This was one of the few ways a young woman left without male support could earn a living. In the working class, it was common for women to start that way, and in middle age, settle down, marry a client, or start a small home business of some sort. They apparently weren't spurned by their neighbors, as an upper class woman would have been.

This industry was supported by a view of men which held it was unhealthy for them not to satisfy their "appetites,"  which might necessitate a wife, a mistress, and the ladies of the night. (there was a contrary view recommending striving for morality: presumable individuals dealt with this contradiction as best they could.)

Of course, an upper class woman was spurned completely if even the slightest touch of impropriety.

[ANNIE]

 I am trying to put up a link here that I found in my email today:
chttp://history1800s.about.com/od/leaders/ss/Queen-Victoria-Facts.htm
ve
http://history1800s.about.com/od/1800sglossary/a/1800stimeline.htm

This sight has so many historical things to read!

Sorry I have not been here in the discussion but I have been lurking and reading along with you all!
Things have been  hoppin' here at my house. 😊💕

[Mkaren557]

Joan- Cranford was serialized in the same way our reading assignments are divided.  I feel as if there is closure at the end of each section.  I do think you are right about Gaskell liking happy resolutions or at least leaving the readers at peace. 
In addition to the Mary and Eve contrast, and there was no middle here, because if you weren't totally pure, you immediately became Eve, there was this expectation of women.  Woman's job was to totally support her husband and make life as easy for him as possible.  If something went wrong with the business, it was assumed to be because his wife did not do her duty.  She fell into disgrace.

Adoannie-  Lurking and reading along is just fine.  Thank you for the link.  I will be checking it out.   

[Mkaren557]

Good Morning
      I woke up early this morning the songbirds;just after dawn they were so loud and melodic. Tom Brady (my dog) and I have just returned from a long walk.  It promises to be another beautiful Florida Day.  This is our last day of discussion of chapters 3-4.  In the next installment(chapters 5-6) we will be sharing some of Miss Matty's memories in "Old Letters" and "Poor Peter".  I keep thinking that perhaps we are spending too long on each section and might want to move on sooner than the calendar says.  I would like to hear how you are feeling about the pace of things.  As I said in the beginning, I can readjust the schedule anytime. 
     Off to my Latin class.  I will be checking in later.  I just need to say again "I Hate Auto-Spell."

[Frybabe]

I'm just now trying to catch up and came across the reference to Blackwood when the ladies were visiting Mr. Holbrook. When I was still in high school I subscribed to the magazine and still have a hardcover book called Traveler's Tales from 'Blackwood'. Project Gutenberg has many of the volumes posted; I have read several of the early volumes from there, too.

Rosemarykaye, is Blackwood still being published? Perhaps I'll remember to check on it this afternoon.

[Mkaren557]

Hi Frybabe

So glad you joined us this morning.  Blackwoods was published until 1980 and was in the Blackwood family the whole time.  I am going to check it out on Gutenberg.  Come back soon.

[BarbStAubrey]

My input - others may have a different viewpoint - there were so many tidbits to look into while reading chapters 1 and 2 where as these two chapters for me were simply a straight forward reading and frankly not near as interesting so that for these 2 I could see us moving on a bit quicker - but do not know if the remaining chapters are more like the first 2 or like these second 2 - I'm thinking though to have 4 chapters to read in a week would probably be a bit closer to how we do more in a day and a week during this time in history rather than keeping to a schedule established for a time when life moved slower.

[bellamarie]

Karen I think the pace of discussing the chapters is perfect.  To rush through would be an injustice, some are not able to check in as often as others so it does give them a chance to catch up. 

Barb,

these two chapters for me were simply a straight forward reading and frankly not near as interesting so that for these 2 I could see us moving on a bit quicker -

For me I did not find these chapters simply straight forward reading these two chapters revealed so much more because our narrator is now an open active character giving us a lot to look at, she reveals more of her personality as she interacts rather than observes.

Before we move on there were a few points I found interesting at the dinner.  Our narrator, Mary Smith (shall we use her name since it has been revealed?) has now become an active character in the these chapters.  She seems to not like being ignored:

pg. 44 He strode along, either wholly forgetting my existence, or soothed into silence by his pipe - and yet it was not silence exactly. He walked before me with a stooping gait, his hands clasped behind him; and, as some tree or cloud, or glimpse of distant upland pastures, struck him, he quoted poetry to himself, saying it out loud in a grand sonorous voice, with just the emphasis that true feeling and appreciation give. We came upon an old cedar tree, which stood at one end of the house -

"The cedar spreads his dark-green layers of shade."

"Capital term - 'layers!' Wonderful man!" I did not know whether he was speaking to me or not; but I put in an assenting "wonderful," although I knew nothing about it, just because I was tired of being forgotten, and of being consequently silent.

After Mr. Holbrook has finished reading the poem 'Locksley Hall"  Miss Matty awakens and says,  "It is so like the beautiful poem of Dr.  Johnson's my sister used to read__I forget the name of it, what was it my dear?"  turning to  me.  "Which do you mean, ma'am?  What was it about?" 

I was puzzled that the narrator did not remember the famous Dr. Johnson's book, when it was such a whole topic she talks about with Captain Brown and Miss Jenkyns disagreement which led to them quarreling and her being upset with him. 

A couple of you questioned the validity of the narrator and at the time I had no reason to suspect it, but now I am starting to have doubts about this narrator, now that she is such an active character in these two chapters.  Can you be objective when being a duo part in a story?  Observing giving your opinions and observations is one thing, but then becoming an actual character active in the story plot shines a new light on possibly the validity.  Miss Mary Smith the narrator seems to have quite a personality and does not seem to like being ignored.  We know she is younger than the ladies of Cranford so it would make perfect sense to want attention and seem important.  She does seem in these two chapters to be front and center and taking a role that seems inappropriate for Cranford ladies, but not so much so in her more modern city she lives in.  Is she bringing changes to Cranford?

[CallieOK]

I'm beginning to wonder if the narrator was hired as an occasional "companion" to the ladies she visited in Cranford.

[Frybabe]

Thanks, Karen. I suspected as much. I think I looked up Blackwood several years ago but couldn't remember what I discovered.

Tennyson's Locksley Hall  https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45362

I read Boswell's Life of Samuel Johnson years ago, but have never read any of his works. The book originally belonged to my Dad. I think I would like to read some (if not all) of Johnson's Lives of the Most Eminent English Poets. Wikipedia lists the poets within its pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lives_of_the_Most_Eminent_English_Poets 

RE: the narrator. I've been wondering who she is; she calls them (I forget which) clients. It doesn't appear that the question is every resolved.

GINNY, here is something interesting: Johnson translated Alexander Pope's Messiah into Latin. It was his first published poem.

[rosemarykaye]

I myself would prefer to stick to two chapters at a time - I have so many other things on the go just now that two is about all I can cope with - and although I did read the book right through before we started, i have a head like a sieve and need to re-read the chapters as we go along.

What a fascinating suggestion about the narrator, Callie - maybe she is a paid companion? Is that likely, MKaren? She is certainly mysterious, at least from our vantage point.

Joan, I have borrowed the How to live like a Victorian book from the library. When i first saw it it looked so thick and heavy that I thought I would never get through it, but as you know it is in fact divided into very short sections, and very well written too, so it is great to dip in and out of, and very entertaining. I have just read the section on teeth cleaning - I had no idea Victorians used things like carbolic, camphor and chalk, or even ground up cuttlefish! And the author says soot was the best one she tried 'as it washes clean away' - but how long does that take, I wonder?

The section about washing - the 'stand-up wash' - reminded me of my own childhood, which was in the 1960s rather than the 1860s! My mother was in a constant state of anxiety about the cost of hot water, and we did not have a shower, so baths were strictly rationed. A friend and I recall that we often washed in the hot water from our hot water bottles, poured out into the basin the next morning! How things have changed - my daughters think nothing of having two showers a day sometimes, and constant hot water is the norm for them (and for me too now, of course).

I definitely recommend this book - thanks Joan. The girl at the library desk was also very enthusiastic about it - she says there's another one about the Tudors, also very good. I suppose that would give some background for the wonderful Wolf Hall.

Rosemary

[JoanK]

ROSEMARY: glad you're enjoying the book. It's a bit of a slog if you think you have to read it cover to cover, but great fun if you dip in and out on topics that interest you.

FRYBABE: I never heard of "Blackwoods." I wonder if it's similar to the American Magazine of about the same time: "Godys Ladies Book." I have a bound copy of a year's issues that belonged to my great grandmother. The pages are in such poor condition, I'm scared to try to read it, but I love to look at the "fashion plates."

[JoanK]

KAREN: I like the pace. People are still finding things to say, but we've sucked the meat out of the story. good time to move on.

[Frybabe]

JoanK, Blackwood's was more a literary journal than anything. It included serialized stories, poetry,reviews, travelogues, and a few other things I probably forgot. I think I vaguely remember a few articles of critical political analysis, too.

[bellamarie]

Callie, 

I'm beginning to wonder if the narrator was hired as an occasional "companion" to the ladies she visited in Cranford.

Hmmm... now that would explain her using the words, "my client" when they were in the shop.  We sure don't know much about the narrator as of yet, she did give instructions to Martha the servant to keep here abreast of Miss Matty.

[Mkaren557]

Mary Smith's background will emerge later, but I don't thing she was being paid to do this.  However, I may have missed something.
Most of you seem to want to keep moving at the same pace and that is fine with me.  Barb, will that work ok for you?  I think it is fine to go where the discussion leads us.  Although we probably don't want to discuss the football playoffs or price of a new tv, I have enjoyed and found relevant prostitution, cookbooks and measuring, clothing and fashion, and all of the other places our discussion has led us so far.  So if you find some tidbit in your reading or want to ask a question about anything, please do. So far everyone seems to be willing to help answer.
So for now, carry on.

[BarbStAubrey]

It will work - enjoying the posts - she does a nice job of creating various personalities - Sun finally out after two weeks of dank rain - this is a nice story to turn to with all the upheaval elsewhere.

[Jonathan]

For once I must disagree with you, Joan. There's always another juicy suck left in the Cranford, or Gaskell, orange, it seems. Here's the latest for me:

'I closed the book when I got about half-way. It is beautiful; it is mournful; it is monotonous....'

Those words are in a letter to Mrs Gaskell from Charlotte Bronte, regarding Tennyson's lenghty poem In Memoriam. I was looking for something about Locksley Hall, which Mr Holbrook read in his best voice, but which put Miss Matty to sleep 'within five minutes.' We could profitably take a day or two to discuss it.

And how about these 'juicy' words from Martha:

"Why, it seems so hard of missus not to let me have any followers; there's such lots of young fellows in the town; and many a one has as much as offered to keep company with me; and I may never be in such a likely place again, and it's like wasting an opportunity. Many a girl  as I know would have 'em unbeknownst to missus; but I've given my word....'

I crack up over the headache this must have been for housekeepers, and the lady of the house, with all these Lotharios hanging around. I do believe I have become mired in the details of this remarkable book. I've also started a biography of Queen Victoria. She found much solace, after Albert died,  in Tennyson's elegy to his friend Hallam. I'm sorry, I may not be able to keep up with you. So much collateral interest comes with this book. Just too, too, juicy.

[Mkaren557]

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45362.
     This is a website where you can look at "Locksley Hall".  Now, I know that I do not live in Victorian times, but this would be a hard poem for me to hear and engage with if it were read to me. So, it did not surprise me that Miss Matty "fell sound asleep."  I get the impression that Miss Matty, unlike her sister, was more interested in crocheting or sewing than in literary works.  So her evaluation of Mr Holbrook's reading was, "What a pretty book."  which she changed to "beautiful" when he reacted negatively to "pretty." 
     I am not an expert on Victorian poetry, but I did read "Idylls of the King" because I love the tales of Camelot, and, on request, I read "Crossing the Bar" aloud at a funeral once.  Barb, maybe Tennyson might be a good discussion on the poetry sight.
Anyway, Jonathan, thank you for calling attention to that incident.




 

[Frybabe]

Karen, you might like Tennyson's Lady of Shallot, if you read Idylls.  https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45359

We had a wonderful discussion on it last March. http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4559.0

[Frybabe]

I've just finished chapter 5. My first thought, when Matty decided to burn old letters, was there go what could be valuable historical social commentary, and how they handled and thought about the many joys and problems in the early 19th century. We were never a bunch of letter and card keepers in my family so why that popped up, I don't know.

Anyway, the letters were a fine introduction to Peter.

[JoanK]

I loved Gaskell's description of the quirks people have about spending money. It is so true. Both my husband and I had these quirks (not about the same things, unfortunately). I've always been intrigued by the fact that money, which  should be a cut and dried matter of dollars and cents, actually arouses all our deepest psychological quirks, strengths and weaknesses.

[Mkaren557]

I don't know about the rest of you but I spent the day watching the inauguration activities which, for some reason, sapped my energy.  But, thank you Frybabe and Joan for keeping us going in the book club.  Fryebabe, I didn't know that you had read some of the Idylls. Thank you for telling me. 
Joan, money can be such a source of conflict in any relationship, particularly when the two people have differing priorities.  I think it showed between Miss Matty and Mary Smith over use of the candles.  This also points how for granted we take adequate light.  Have you ever tried reading by candlelight.  Not only is it hard to see, but the light flickers which bothers me.
   I have been thinking about writing letters, which was a part of my life as I was growing up.  I used to sit at my mother's desk and use her fountain pen and write letters to my grandmother, and they wrote back to me.  Getting a letter was a source of great joy.  I do have a couple of her letters, but because I have moved several times, any others I saved are gone.  In boarding school we had to write home every Sunday morning and my mother's letters were the a hit among my friends--typical small town full of news and gossip.  I do wish I had some of those.
    With the phone, email and text, letter writing is a lost art.  How do you think that has affected our lives?  In the chapter "Old Letters"  Miss Matty goes through old letters and burns them.  Would you have burned those letters?  How would it feel to spend two+ days listening to someone read their letters?  What did we learn about Miss Matty and her family?  I had to go to footnotes to understand some of what was in them.
    We will be working on this section through Monday, so there is still plenty of time to read.  Have a relaxing Saturday.

[nlhome]

The letters were interesting. We have a few that my parents wrote to each other when my dad was in the Army for almost 5 years during WWII. After he died, my mother burned most of them, probably too personal for her to want us to see. I have a box of letters I saved when my husband was in the Navy, and he saved all of mine - I am thinking I will probably burn most of them as well. My kids don't need to read them. I'll save the few that are more about what was going on and less about our personal thoughts, because there is some history in them.

I can't imagine reading by candlelight for any length of time. That must have been so tiring.

I used to go into elder's homes to help them with their paperwork, Medicare and Social Security and such. I often had to ask them to turn a light on or open curtains, because I needed more light to read - I wondered sometimes if that's why they didn't even open their mail, because they couldn't see well enough but thought that it was wasteful to use the electricity. (However, that didn't stop them from leaving the TV on all day, so, yes, interesting how people think of spending money.)

[Jonathan]

'What cannot  letters inspire? They have souls; they can speak; they have in them all that force which expresses the transports of the heart; they have all the fire of our passions. They can raise them as much as if the persons themselves were present. They have all the tenderness and the delicacy of speech,  and sometimes even a boldness of expression beyond it. Letters were first invented for consoling such solitary wretches as myself!... Having lost the substantial pleasures of seeing and possessing you, I shall in some measure compensate this loss by the satisfaction I shall find in your writing. There I shall read your most sacred thoughts.

Don't burn anything. Remember how you felt writing them. Leave it on record. It could be of the greatest interest to posterity. How pleased Peter would have been to get the letter from his mother:

'My dearest Peter, You did not think we should be so sorry as we are, I know, or you would never have gone away. You are too good. Your father sits and sighs till my heart aches to hear him. He cannot hold up his head for grief; and yet he only did what he thought was right. Perhaps he has been too severe, and perhaps I have not been kind enough; but God knows how we love you, my dear only boy. Don looks so sorry you are gone. Come back, and make us happy, who love you so much. I know you will come back.'

It was a horrible hoax to play, wasn't it?

The first quotation was from The Letters of Heloise to Abelard, included in the book: The World's Great Letters. Some of the world's greatest treasures are the letters, diaries and journals that thoughtful people left behind.

But all eyes are on Washington and the future. God bless....

[Mkaren557]

My eyes are glued to tv. Beautiful quotes,  Jonathan.  Thank you

[JoanK]

JONATHAN: what a lovely letter. i'm so glad no one burned it.

Again, Gaskell expresses perfectly how it feels to read old letters. I had occasion to read some letters that my parents wrote to each other before they were married: indeed, it was sad, but I couldn't understand why. they married and  had sixty happy years together. The letters were light, telling the trivia of the day. But I just thought "they were young once too!"

PATH: please don't burn them!

[JoanK]

I'm so glad my kindle is hooked to a dictionary, so if I see a word I don't know, I can click on it and a definition comes up. I didn't believe that "sesquipedalian" was a word, but there it was:  "....characterized by long words: long winded." from the Latin for "a foot and a half long." great word, but I don't think I'll try to memorize it: it's unlikely to come up in conversation.

That's the umpteenth dig that Gaskell has made at the long winded style that was considered "good writing" in the day. No wonder she was so popular: her writing must have been a breathe of fresh air. Note that we don't read the "good" writers anymore.

[JoanK]

What do you think of the different characters of iss Mattie's parents, as revealed in the letters and life story. Does miss Mattie strike you as being a lot like her mother?

[PatH]

I finally got the time to read chapters 3 and 4, after we just left them, but I'll comment anyway.

I agree with JoanK that "my client" just means the one of the store's clients that came in with the narrator.

The incident of the peas reminds me of a rhyme we children thought was pretty funny when we were about 8:

I eat my peas with honey,
I've done it all my life.
It does taste rather funny
but it keeps them on the knife.

The long ago failed romance between Matty and Mr. Holbrook points out an interesting facet of Cranford life.  All the characters spend a lot of time and effort reinforcing what I call their sense of identity, and this is largely a sense of class.  Mr. Holbrook, although related to Miss Pole, is a bit lower than Matty, and doesn't even deign to take the steps available to him to edge up a bit in position.  This makes him unacceptable to Matty's family, maybe to her too.  It's a dilemma for a woman--try to find happiness at the cost of lowering your class?  Except for this snag, Holbrook looks like very good husband material.

[PatH]

PATH: please don't burn them!

JoanK, you know me better than that.  I never get rid of anything.

[Frybabe]

One thing I noticed quite strongly was that everyone's sense of propriety and station in life comes out very strong as does the possibility of shaming family or the "what will the neighbors think" mentality. It has crushed more than a few friendships and romances for a very long time. I do remember hearing "What will the neighbors think?", spoken by my Mom, more than a few times when I was young.

[BarbStAubrey]

'What will others think' has me confused and pondering - some of our social niceties have disappeared as the new call for not to worry about what others think and yet, during the time we cared, society also had a tyrannical approach to how we should live our lives in order to be considered acceptable. It appears we often throw the baby out with the bathwater when social change happens. 

A tidbit before we pass the discussion on candles - the reason so many young women by the age of 20 or 21 were nearly blind and soon after could only see foggy shapes - In the nineteenth century lace was still a part of a woman's dress - machine lace, although possible in 1808 was not in production for general use by manufacturers till 1835 - before, all lace was handmade - and that is the key to how women were used and abused.

A group of young woman - girls from the age of 12 and some even as young as 10 were put in a dark room to make lace - their source of light was one candle next to a cut glass drinking glass so that the candle sent out fractured bits of light and each girl placed her straight backed chair so that a tiny bit of fractured light shined on her work so that the small tiny area where she worked was lite.

Most needlework was done by a guild that only accepted men - remember there was no printed fabric till around 1834 - prior all fabric with a colorful design was hand embroidered. Lace makers were not included in the guilds. There was an explosion of needlework by high born ladies after clear windows imported from Venice were included in late Tudor architecture where as, earlier and for many years later, low income families used bottle glass for windows that did not let in the kind of light needed for reading or needlework. That is why you see many paintings of women knitting with the door open or sitting on the front steps where there was light.

The ladies of Cranford may be holding back the industrial world but there were benefits that are not acknowledged - like the health of the eyes of girls as they were the manufacturers of the very lace collars and trim on the clothing of the ladies in Cranford.

Another story you may not know - there was a huge sumptuary tax imposed on lace by both the king of France and the King of England during the seventeenth century - so the lace industry thrived in Belgium but, all about disappeared in both England and France - however, France had a solution - they raised dogs that were trained like homing pigeons to return home - half the dogs were well fed and became almost too 'fat' while the other half were on a substance diet. They were the dogs anxious for any food they got and they would return easily to their home kennel - Both sets of dogs were herded to Belgium where the fat dogs were slaughtered and the skinny dogs were packed with lace - the contraband was covered by tying the skins of the fat dogs around them - they were let loose - Of course the hungry dogs were anxious to get back to where they could expect a meal - and so France had its lace without the cost of a heavy tariff.   

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, Oh how much I enjoyed your post.  As I was reading the first quotation I wondered who wrote this beautiful piece of work.  And then you supplied us with, The Letters of Heloise to Abelard, included in the book: The World's Great Letters

I was browsing in Barnes and Noble the other day and came across this book,  War Letters: Extraordinary Correspondence from American Wars Paperback – May 1, 2002 by Andrew Carroll.  I held it in my hands flipped through a few pages and decided not to buy it.  After reading these two chapters I am going to purchase it. 

Chapters 5 & 6 just tore at my heart.  For a young man to get so upset for being flogged by his father for a practical joke that was very inappropriate, and join the armed services was a bit over the top for me.  But what followed was just heartbreaking.  Imagining the mother and father running through the house looking for him then trying desperately to find him outside the home or possible a friend's house was so maddening.  Then all the turn of events, they miss seeing him off, then he does not receive their letter, and the mother dies before she receives his gift, was so sad.  Gaskell sure knows how to get to the very heart of her reader.

I have letters I saved when my hubby and I were dating.  I also have journals I have written throughout my years of marriage.  I don't know how I feel about my children reading these after I am no longer here.  I suppose I need to make a decision as to whether to burn them or just leave them in my closet.  Miss Matty reading her parents letters made me think about if we have the right to intrude into reading personal letters from our parents, or siblings. 

Karen, 

With the phone, email and text, letter writing is a lost art.  How do you think that has affected our lives?  In the chapter "Old Letters"  Miss Matty goes through old letters and burns them.  Would you have burned those letters?  How would it feel to spend two+ days listening to someone read their letters?  What did we learn about Miss Matty and her family? 

Great questions Karen, I feel with cell phones, email and texting we have become a society of detachment and impersonal interactions.  With all the social networking like, Twitter, Snap Chat, Skype, Face to Face, Kix, Vine just to name a few, we have lost the art of communication not only through letter writing, but through verbal conversation.  We can easily misread, misinterpret, or misunderstand a text because you are not hearing or seeing the person, and the text is usually not only a few characters, but it's filled with shortened slang icons or emoticons.  I just learned the other day that cursive writing is no longer being taught in some schools.  It is considered useless since eye and finger scans are to be the new form of identification. Printing is considered enough form of writing.  Imagine our great grandchildren growing up, finding our letters or journals all written in cursive, and they would not be able to read them due to the fact cursive writing is no longer taught.  Now I am feeling very old and antiquated.
   

[rosemarykaye]

Well I still write letters - though not as often as I did before we had smart phones, laptops, etc. I wrote quite a few to put into Christmas cards to friends who live a long way away (and no, I did not write one 'round robin', these were individual letters).

My mother still has all the letters I wrote home when i was at university. At least one was expected every week without fail. I think even then we were quite old fashioned, as most of my friends queued up outside the phone box to call their parents once a week instead.  I think I preferred letters in some ways because it was easier to tell what you wanted to tell and keep the rest to yourself! I do not want to keep these letters, nor will I want to leave them for my children - to be honest I find them embarrassing and upsetting - embarrassing because I took myself so seriously at the age of 20, upsetting because it was all so long ago and I often feel I should have made better choices since then, achieved more, taken more chances, etc.

Rosemary

[rosemarykaye]

PS - of course not writing letters does not mean our words are not saved for posterity, in fact they are now even more likely to be saved when we don't want them to be. I was yesterday on a course about communications and publicity for churches, and the young lady running it reminded us that anything we put on Facebook, Twitter, our websites or even in our emails is forever stored somewhere, especially as it is apparently now cheaper for companies like Google to buy more storage than to delete files. Some of the people on the course were really shocked by this - they thought if you deleted something that was the end of it, they had not previously heard of caches and all the other things that hang on to all our stuff.

This was being mentioned in the context of copyright - if you breach someone's copyright and they sue you, saying that you've taken the post down is not enough.  One church had reproduced a well known and frequently used poem in its magazine. The rector received a terrifying letter from a US company threatening to sue her and the Episcopal church for thousands of dollars. She sensibly took legal advice and the lawyers told her to take the poem off the internet version of the magazine and then stop worrying. She never heard any more about it. It seems there are 'copyright trolls' who spend their entire time searching the web for copyright infringements and then reporting them to the owners of the copyright and offering to sue people on their behalf (no doubt for a hefty commission). What is the world coming to?

Rosemary

[rosemarykaye]

And as for Miss Matty's parents, yes I think her father is just like Deborah and her mother much more like her. Standing on principles has destroyed so many family relationships through the centuries.

I too remember how obsessed my parents were about 'what the neighbours would think.' It dominated their lives. Whilst I do object if my neighbours are exceptionally noisy late at night, or leave rubbish everywhere or something like that, I certainly would not judge them for any of the numerous little 'infringements' that so worried my mother in particular. Things like not opening your curtains early enough in the morning, putting washing out on a Sunday, women wearing trousers to church, etc etc.  My parents were only very vaguely religious, it was the propriety that mattered.

Rosemary

[Mkaren557]

Well, good morning,

I just wrote a long explanation for why schools are no longer going to teach cursive, but I deleted it.  The bottom line is today's demands and time.  But Rosemary, I guess I won't worry about destroying my journals because no one may be able to read them anyway.
        I have always lived in small towns and there was, and still is, a lot of watching what other people are doing and passing judgement.  My parents frequently worried about "what the neighbors think."  I find the nice thing about getting older is that I care less and less about that.
      Barbara, thank you for the story about lace and dogs   The working conditions, although they did gradually improve in the late Victorian Age, were inhuman and destructive.  There are transcripts of hearings where the abuses of workers, particularly children, were exposed.  One of these involved the coal mines.  Because the places in mines where they dug coal were very small and narrow, small children replaced donkeys as haulers of coal.  They would fix straps to the childs head and run a veil like piece of canvas (or something like that) for the children to crawl into these small spaces, put a pile of coal in the canvas, and on hands and knees drag it out of the mine.  These children were 5-6 years old and the constant pressure of the strap on the forehead made a permanent dent in the childs brow. 
     We still have today and tomorrow on this section.  Keep those thoughts coming.