Number Our Days

[JoanK]

On Jewish agnostics: my husband was one, and I suspect there are many. Judaism encourages people o study and interpret the Bible: of course people come to many different conclusions about it. But like Smuel, both the oral precepts and the culture of Judaism were very important to my husband, as was the precept of using his life to make the world a better place.

[JoanK]

On a different topic, I noted Ginny's comment:

" but old age brings with it a lot of self concerns. Maybe we need a new word for "selfish." Look at how Basha wakes up. Does this move today? Does that hurt today? She has to go to the store, can she make it? "

That's exactly right. Just to get through the day requires much more work, planning etc. than for a younger person,  and special occasions may require the time and attention of several family members. This means thinking about yourself a lot, but is it selfish?

[PatH]

Right.  You may not be being selfish; you want to make the generous gesture, but don't have enough steam left to do it.

[ginny]

JoanK!!! Welcome, welcome! I am so glad to see you here!

I don't think it does. "Selfish" by definition seems to mean to the disregard of others, if I read that definition correctly:

:  concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself :  seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

2
:  arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others a selfish act

If you have to do something in order to even start moving then yes you have to concentrate on yourself for a bit SO that you can accommodate and enjoy others. I can't see that as selfish. Margaret Drabble seems to have a very dark eye when it comes to looking at the world. She kind of reminds me of reading Rabbit Run. Great book, can't put it down but why does the world look so bleak and  DARK and why have I become so cynical since I picked it up?

I did like this, too: it may include Yiddish words, like kvetch, but  think it's predominant trait is it's sense of humor. (it's no accident that so many comedians are Jewish. I've been thinking of humor since I started. I've been to a lot of shows featuring comedians who used Yiddish. I had no earthly idea what they were saying but I learned fast to laugh along, too, hahahaa I've laughed at a lot of things I had no idea what was said, but everybody was having such a harmless and happy  good time I hated not to join in.   I think I'll look for that  Rosten book, I've heard of it, thank you for that.

One of the funniest routines I ever saw was Billy Cristal's show about his uncle who had an...well you've heard the expression "old fart?" Again excuse the language, if you ever get a chance to see his monologue you can barely hear it for the hysterical laughter from the audience, but it's one of recognition.

Joan K, you,  too, lived in Israel. I think that's fascinating. Did you stay long?

How long have you been in Israel,  Bubble? If you don't mind my asking.  Are either of you familiar with the saying "next year in Israel?" If you are, would you mind saying what it means?

What lovely photos, Bellamarie! Your friend Marilyn, if that's she with the cake, is gorgeous.  Are you sure she's 88? I don't look that good now! She's got  good good genes, she will probably be here long after we're gone and in high spirits, too.

Bellamarie said: This concerned them a bit, but it made me wonder......... in ageing do the elderly become more resistant to leaving their places of comfort?  I know my Grandmother rarely got out of her house and visited as she aged, we all came to visit her.  If my Mom could talk her into coming to our house she would get fidgety and want to go home.  But then I read where so many of you members are still traveling aboard and moving to other states and it seems not all elderly do need and want that level of comfort.  I wonder where I will fall in this in a few years, considering we are thinking of selling our home after being here since 1984

Now that is a good question. What do you all think? I'd like to know the answer. That is, if we're honest, the $64,000 question and it goes right back to the issues we started with.

How do we look at this? Naturally one is more comfortable at home in familiar surroundings. One has what one needs, no matter what it is, to a certain extent. Marilyn's decision to stay in her new surroundings which she finds comfortable and manageable and pleasant might not be the decision of old age but a decision of practicality.  But how do they differ?  We take for granted that we will be the same for the next 30 years, definitely, no change. We may be from a family of long lived people, and even if not, we're still here. Look at all those 90 year olds running marathons, climbing mountains. We expect to be able to do that, if we want to, even IF we don't run now. There's that 100 year old woman who took up jogging and now runs marathons since  her 90's. Plenty of time for us to begin. Later.

But in the blink of an eye, things change, we change,  and we have to adapt or...I guess that's why they say old age is not for sissies.

Margaret Drabble actually said something complimentary about this, when she said "Old age itself is a theme for heroism. It calls upon courage."

Then she lists the accoutrements of old age, and I won't put them here, the little and big embarrassments, and I'll quote, sorry for the language, she starts with her recalling as an extra burden the embarrassments of her youth and middle age before moving to old age...(I am glad to see I'm not the only one who does that)....I'll skip some... "the attempt to cheat in the sack race,"......"the fart on the podium, the misunderstanding about the ten-pound note, the arriving too early at the airport, the mistake over the visa, the table where there was no place name for her, the overheard remark about the inappropriate cardigan, the unforgivable forgetting of a significant name. ..she worries now about the soup stain on her cardigan, the egg yolk on the dressing gown lapel, but she certainly hasn't achieved anything resembling peace of mind. Her relentless brooding on ageing, death and the last things are not at all peaceful. Lines  of Macbeth, from Macbeth, repeat themselves to her monotonously, even tho they are not particularly applicable to her lowly estate..."

She's right. And then she makes a point about retirement centers, saying "not cooped up with invasively dressed strangers..." and that gave me a pause, too. My mother went to an Assisted Living against my advice but she liked it and the dress code there was unreal. They DRESSED.  I myself always felt somewhat...I still have in my closets the clothes I bought to enliven my visits to her  there, can you believe that? Have never worn them since. No navy turtle necks and slacks like I wear here, no, one wanted to keep up the standard for her sake so the others would not say oh is that your DAUGHTER? Does she wear any color but navy and black?  Am sitting here now in navy slacks and turtleneck, my "uniform," but I like it.

But IS that good or bad? SHE always looked wonderful, if I had been in that same situation, I guess I also would have risen TO (or tried to) that same occasion,  despite my personal preference  for the way Catherine Hepburn dressed.

What do you all think about the question that Bellarmarie asks above, I'll repeat it here:

in ageing do the elderly become more resistant to leaving their places of comfort?  I know my Grandmother rarely got out of her house and visited as she aged, we all came to visit her.  If my Mom could talk her into coming to our house she would get fidgety and want to go home.  But then I read where so many of you members are still traveling aboard and moving to other states and it seems not all elderly do need and want that level of comfort.

[ginny]

This is a good discussion, with great issues and questions being raised. I not only like it a lot, I'm learning things.

There's hongfan with a giant fungus, can't tell you how much that scared me to death. A fungus among us.

That was interesting!

As far as how Rebekah acted at the funeral, people grieve in SO many different ways. You can't really come to any conclusion about them, after a while you have seen so many different ways of grieving.  Lovely poem, Barbara, thank you for sharing it.

That was a beautiful essay on clothes and religious groups, Barbara, you really ought to write, or collect what you've been posting here into a book of essays for your grandchildren, these worlds we describe will soon be lost.

Thank you Jonathan, for this: 'You can see this is no observant home', he tells the author...'My son is a better Jew than me.' And then on the next page: 'It is a fact of life to be hurt by your children.' The son, it seems stays away and Shmuel and Rebekah never get to see their grandsons.   I wonder what the rift was? We'll never know. I had missed this tho I now recall Rebekah missing her grandchildren since they moved there.

I would have really liked to have read Shmuel's Obituary but I can't do that, either since she's changed his name.

Ann, you are living the moving to a  Retirement Center now!  "One of my future plans is to be a volunteer helping to take the assisted living folks on their day trips. That's a day out for me,too!  My brother has dimentia and last week he was taken to the Chilldren's Museum in Indy.  My SIL went along and took lots of pics and sent them to me immediately. It was so nice to see all the folks having a good time."

That's you, that's vintage Ann, and that's why you shine wherever you are planted.  I think the outings for dementia patients are extremely important.  I remember our own Larry Hanna here on SeniorLearn, who used to go and play the piano for folks of reduced mental acuity, songs from their youth, which they loved. They do say now that music is one constant in helpful therapy.

Barbara, another moving post! I agree with the "lost their humanity" quote and that Shmuel is profound, and I agree with Bellamarie, that it's only chapter 1!!

Bubble, Margaret Drabble totally agrees with you on this statement: I much prefer being in a younger surrounding if possible! 

She seems to feel it's the key, actually... I know I am energized being around my grandchild and children.

Then this, tho, how many times have we seen this? You would not believe how the company of others, the entertainment, the meals he receive, all that made a drastic change.  Now he dresses properly, shave, and wait on time downstairs for the transport to take him.


What happens in these circumstances? Does the person then feel that somebody cares about them? Is that it?

Bubble, we have another student originally from Africa in our Latin classes. How did you come to be in Israel? It's a shame that Myerhoff could not meet you or many of our folks here who have SUCH life experiences!

This is certainly true for me. It tires me to travel now, although I liked it very much in the past. I still wish I could go around the world and visit the many friends I have  all over   

I wish you could too. Are you sure you can't? Travel IS tiring, whether you're in a wheelchair or not. I find that I can't do it the same way I used to, either, and I usually go by myself.  I'm having to make concessions to age. I am not sure that's totally a bad thing.  In fact I am almost positive it's not.

  I mean,  everything is slower. I WANT it to be slower. I want to take time and as they say,  smell the roses. For instance, i have always walked slowly. I get a lot of grief over it, even today.

I remember a football game my husband and I went to at least 52 years ago and his having to stop and wait and stop and wait on the long walk from the parking lot. He finally said why are you walking so slowly? I'm still walking slowly but now I do everything slowly. I'm slow. Physically. That's OK, you notice people and things others don't.  There's something to be said for it, there really is.

In travel, I used to be able to do Pompeii in a day. Nothing to it including at least 2 Necropoli. I won't tell you how much I saw this time, but I saw what I saw? I walked the streets. And they are putting in sidewalks. SIDEWALKS! If you've ever seen the pavement at Pompeii you know what a boon that is. I saw my first wheelchair last year in Pompeii. This year I saw many and I see alterations to accommodate those who can't  do it alone. And I saw one woman in a scooter, have never seen that, going right over these rocks, in a determined manner.  Here's an example of the pavement on the streets: That's the way you get IN to Pompeii. But even that is beginning to change this year.

Even my  youngest son who is in his 40's remarked with shock over the streets, they are very hard to walk on, even for him, but NOW sidewalks are appearing instead of dirt ruts where you have had to get BACK on that street and jump down shin  high curbs to do it. My jumping off curbs is over. Do I miss it? Are you kidding?

I honestly feel like it speaks to you more when you don't run thru it.

I'm trying to say that it's OK to adjust your travel to yourself, and make adjustments for age. Having been reminded by one of our posters on this website  that the stairs to the Tube (metro)  at Victoria Station in London are killers and with a torn tendon in my leg I took a cab. Who does that?  I did and I enjoyed getting there, too.  Should have taken a bus but didn't think of it, maybe that's the selfish thing cropping out.

And I took my first bus in Sorrento, you can't help notice the kindness of the drivers, everybody is suddenly so KIND.  In Rome I had gotten a week bus pass (highly recommended) and missed my stop.  I got out at St. Peter's train  station which is kind of a no man's land for where I wanted to go (the Basilica) and didn't know how to get back. I asked the driver who had gotten out of the bus because that's the end of the line and he got off to have a smoke. But people began to get on, too.

 No English, very gruff.  I said yes I missed my stop. He said get on. We rode around and got to Santa Spirito in Sassia, which is very close to the front of St. Peters where I stay but it went right on  past. The entire area, I should mention,  was blocked off for the Jubilee and there were police on every corner and more in the way of soldiers. But the routes were disrupted.

 Suddenly the bus stopped. Just stopped,  nowhere near a bus stop.  The driver got out of his cab thing and came back to me. Qui (here) he said, and then waved his arm to the right and  said Cinquanta.  I have never ever seen a driver do that in 31 years. I don't know if I present a pitiful picture or if (as I suspect) the people of Italy are extraordinary kind to the elderly, I have certainly seen enough instances of it this trip, but I recommend Italy, strongly.



But I do feel, those of you who are still able to go, GO. You don't know what tomorrow will bring, go NOW, and enjoy it.  There are some cruises you can do for almost nothing, save up and get on one, you will never forget it. Travel changes you, as I think Pat said, and for the better. Go now while there is a world open to explore. Italy is cheap and reasonable. Go on the off season and stay a week. It's cheaper than going to Ohio (no offense to Ohio)  and might be, for some,  a lot more meaningful. I hope to keep going, if circumstances permit,  for many more years yet. If not, not, but I've enjoyed every single step. Even though, this year, I have apparently become  one of the "elderly."

[ginny]

So now while we ponder Bellamarie's question, or any other  you care to raise, if you all finished  Chapter 1, let's read Chapter 2 for Tuesday: "We Don't Wrap Herring in a Printed Page." Boy that brings back memories.

New voices for us, and these are tape recorded in one of the classes at the Center, a Living History Class. That sounds fascinating, to me.

Let's start discussing it Tuesday and till then we can talk about some of the issues brought up in the last few days. I hope you will have lots of thoughts on each of them, it's a unique Living History itself.

[PatH]

Ginny, I think it's "Next year in Jerusalem".  It's a common toast at a seder, meaning, "next year, we'll celebrate Passover in the Holy Land", either because they've taken a long-hoped-for trip there, or because they've actually moved there.

[PatH]

ginny:

I wonder how much this one thing: GETTING AROUND, matters in the overall scheme of retirement issues?

I'd say it matters hugely.  You asked what was most important for an aging person still in reasonable health, and that would be one of my two.  The other is friends.

There are lots of older people stuck in suburbs, living with children, but the children are still working, not around that much, and there's nothing within walking distance but other houses, and no public transportation, so all they can do is sit around.  I stopped driving over a year ago, but I'm lucky in transportation: There's a ride-on bus around the corner from me that wanders to a transportation hub (buses and Metro) in the center of Bethesda, and Bethesda has a free circulating bus that makes a figure eight, passing close to the library, three grocery stores, and most of the places you want to go.  There's good on-line grocery shopping and delivery service too.  My concert buddy still drives, as do most of my eating-dinner-out friends.  But it's time-consuming, and some things that aren't close to transportation are difficult.

[so P bubble]

I arrived in Israel in "62, got married in '64.  I had left Congo on a Red Cross plane during the Congo Independence war.  I went to Europe first, Switzerland and UK but the climate was too extreme for me, so I came to Israel where I had grand parents and aunts I had never met. Can you imagine such close relatives being totally strangers?

Ah Pompeii! I visited the site in '83 when I was still walking. It was a hard trek  along those streets but I saw it all. It was one of the stops on a cruise from Israel and around the Mediterranean Sea.  One of my dearest memories.

Next Year in Jerusalem? The wish, the prayer that every Jews for centuries has been repeating during Passover.  It is not Seeing Capri and die, as in the saying, but going to  Jerusalem and being buried there.

PathH I agree totally with you two priorities in what is important to one in aging.  I think we also need a certain routine for our peace if mind.  It gets more difficult to adapt to unexpected changes.

Maybe I could travel, with the help of a companion; finding suitable accommodation  abroad has been a dreadful challenge.  My last experience: renting an apartment guarantee accessible for w/c:  large doorways, big room, and a lift to get to the flat on the 1st floor above the street.  We got there at 11pm and... Yes there was a lift, but to access it you had 10 steeps steps in a narrow staircase!!!   At that hour, after the taxi left us, there was nothing else to do but to be carried upstairs.  Each outing became an ordeal.



See for yourself. The door of the lift is just on top there.

[ANNIE]

So'pBlb, just looking at those steep stairs would make one tired!  Where were you!  Somewhere exotic, I hope!

[so P bubble]

Brussels, very near the GrandPlace.  I have many school friends living in Belgium.
 When I was getting to nostalgic I used to take a trip there. Not any more after the last experience.
I am getting like Shmuel, relying on my routine, even if it has small disagreements such as
different mentality or background.

[bellamarie]

Bubble, those stairs are not only steep but could be slippery if you have the least bit of moisture on your shoes. 

PatH.,  Our city has just recently begun the online grocery shopping and will also deliver your groceries to your home, or you can pick them up after bagged.  I'm thinking this is going to be a big hit not only for elderly, but for the working two parents, who can't find time to get to the grocery store.

Ginny, yes, that is Marilyn with her beautiful birthday cake, and indeed she is 88 yr. young! 



 

[PatH]

I think around here more working parents use the service than do singles.  Weekend spots fill up first, and some items aren't available in small quantities suitable for one.  I often see the truck delivering across the street to a pair of lawyers.

[ginny]

Oh I was so excited to see that Amazon had bought Whole Foods. I hope that means exactly what you are describing, Pat, that we can get it delivered free. I'll believe that when I see it way out here, but I think it would be a wonderful boon in the city to a lot of people. Millions to be made.

And I have also seen those groceries, Bellamarie, I think here it's the new  WalMart small food thing, I don't know what you call them but a sign outside said call ahead and we'll bring your groceries to the car. That might be nice for people who are impaired in motion, too. And I THINK it said the same thing at Publix which is a super grocery store.

Bubble!!! Yes, that would daunt anybody much less somebody in a wheelchair, what were they thinking of?

I came upon by mistake another photo of the streets of Pompeii today . I took a walking stick this time to help keep my balance, I mean LOOK at that thing.

Bubble, and Pat, thank you for explaining/ clarifying the "Jerusalem," part of  this, I have always wondered what it meant:

Next Year in Jerusalem? The wish, the prayer that every Jews for centuries has been repeating during Passover.  It is not Seeing Capri and die, as in the saying, but going to  Jerusalem and being buried there. If one sees Capri in the hot summer and fails to take the funicular, they might die in the attempt, I know I would have.

Pat, it sounds like you've got the bus covered!! You are lucky to have that kind of service. I noticed recently that the buses here do that...sort of sinking down thing....?  so that those who can't step up that first big step can make it. When my daughter in Law and grandson and I went to NYC we got on a bus with other people and it was very crowded standing there,  and the bus driver refused to go forward until one of those people sitting in the seat for elders got up and gave an older lady who had gotten on  a seat.  He insisted that the people get up. I was impressed with that. I said something complementary to him when we got off and he said, "It's the law."

I noticed in Philadelphia that there are buses for those in wheelchairs which I had not seen before and they just zipped right on board. In Rome they have an area for these wheelchairs to ride on the bus. It's a new world and in 2050 there will be more of US (I won't be here but there will be statistically) than any other age group. What will the world be like then? (Nicer, I expect). hahhaa

Bellamarie, you are thinking of moving from your current home? To be closer to your children who just moved? How far ARE they? You are surely too young for a retirement complex?

Jonathan, Does it seem strange that it took three days for the author to get news of Shmuels death?  How did you interpret that? The thing about it that shocked me was the part that he had died 2 nights earlier, so he died almost right after she spoke to him. That would make me feel guilty if I were she, that somehow I had upset him, etc., but everything makes me feel guilty.

I liked this quote that Bellamarie typed: pg. 47  " The man who doesn't like his work is a slave, a slave to boredom..... in my life I have never been bored.  If you cannot tell a story to yourself when you are sewing, your are lost anyway.  The work has no beginning and no end, but the story is told, it goes on in the head.  A needle goes in and out.  You hold a thread in your fingers.  It goes to the garment, to the fingers, to the one who wears the garment, all connected.  This is what matters, not whether you are paid for what you do."

This thing about not getting paid there at the end is certainly a message for 2017, isn't it? A time in which people are valued for the amount of money they earn, it's an interesting philosophy.  Is he saying here that he was not paid much?


pg.  75  "We must stay involved to the last minute." I agree with that, do you all? However you choose to do it. But then there's that part about "if you only have your children, you only have hurt," seems to bolster that. What do you think about that last statement?  I sure would like to know what happened between them.
 

[ginny]

My gosh.  The reason I came in here originally was to react to ths:   . I arrived in Israel in "62, got married in '64.  I had left Congo on a Red Cross plane during the Congo Independence war.  I went to Europe first, Switzerland and UK but the climate was too extreme for me, so I came to Israel where I had grand parents and aunts I had never met. Can you imagine such close relatives being totally strangers?

No!  How did that happen? It reads like a suspense novel! What an adventurous life you have had!

[so P bubble]

"We must stay involved to the last minute.
That keeps you active, does not let you fall in passivity.  It brings interest and makes you forget the pain about kids or others. Being active is living, is making the mind work and stay alert.
Robby Iadelucca was a perfect example.  (BTW, what happened to him?)

As for paying for work done, I can relate to that. For years I have been knitting layettes for people. to supplement the income when my kids were small.  I often had orders "urgent " for a new born, a brith etc.  I had fixed rated for each types of garnment.  But sometimes the person would say: I had so many expenses helping the young couple with the necessary furnitures, etc.  So what could I DO when not wanting to be mean?  Ok, just give me what you can...  I think that is just the way Shmuel acted.

[so P bubble]

My gosh.  The reason I came in here originally was to react to ths:   . I arrived in Israel in "62, got married in '64.  I had left Congo on a Red Cross plane during the Congo Independence war.  I went to Europe first, Switzerland and UK but the climate was too extreme for me, so I came to Israel where I had grand parents and aunts I had never met. Can you imagine such close relatives being totally strangers?

No!  How did that happen? It reads like a suspense novel! What an adventurous life you have had!

Long story - my parents married in Cairo where my mom was born but Dad had left his country - island of Rhodes, at the time Italian. But with the fear of WWII they preferred to flee and went in a honeymoon trip to Congo where one of my dad brothers was already working. This saved them because the whole of the Jewish community in Rhodes was deported and exterminated.
Until '62 they never came back to see the family who had meanwhile emigrated from Turkey to Israel.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

The thing about it that shocked me was the part that he had died 2 nights earlier, so he died almost right after she spoke to him. That would make me feel guilty if I were she, that somehow I had upset him, etc., but everything makes me feel guilty.

I  saw Shmuel dying after he finished talking with Myerhoff as his story was complete, as was his life.  Makes me wonder if he was  aware his death was near, even though he appeared to be in good health.

pg.  74  "But when I come back from these stories and remember the way they lived is gone forever, wiped out like you would erase a line of writing, then it means another thing altogether for me to accept leaving this life.  If my life goes now, it means nothing.  But if my life goes, with my memories, and all that is lost, that is something else to bear."

"On this note about God, we finish now,"  he said.  "You have all I can give you.  Take it and do something with it."

pg. 75  He had told her (Rebekah) to get the tapes from me when I finished transcribing them, to give to their son.

If I were Myerfhoff I would not feel guilty whatsoever, if anything I would feel a sense of honor to have spent the last hours with Shmuel, allowing him to tell his story, knowing he knew it would be in a book to let it become a part of history. 

Ginny, 

But then there's that part about "if you only have your children, you only have hurt," seems to bolster that. What do you think about that last statement?  I sure would like to know what happened between them.

When Shmuel said this, I did not get the impression his son did anything in particular to hurt them.  I thought the fact he chose to move away and live his life with his wife and children was the hurt he was referring to.  He spoke of how they have to live their lives, the same as when he chose to leave his parents and homeland to come to America and raise his own family. 

I remember when I got engaged at the age of eighteen, I told my mother my plans to move from our small town of Monroe, Michigan to a large city Toledo, Ohio, she was devastated.  She could not understand how I could leave our small town, where all our family grew up and still remained.  None of our family had ever moved out of the state of Michigan before.  Even though it was only 30 minutes away, to her it seemed unthinkable and very far.  What Shmuel, my mother and now even myself feel when our children move away making it difficult to have them and your grandchildren in your daily life, is the break in the family.  It's like we don't want out little chicks to grow up and move away, especially with our grandchildren in tow.  But.... such is life. 

With the constant encouragement from both our sons, we are considering moving to the small town of Perrysburg, where our son and his family moved to.  It is about a 40 minute drive for us, since our expressway is under construction and will be for the next two years.   Our concern is our house value decreasing, along with our area's safety in the next few years.   Our other son and his family moved to Springfield, which is about 10 minutes from his brother.  So now hubby and I have to do a lot of driving in heavy traffic for all of our grandchildren's sports and school activities, and family get togethers.  We love our home, and our area is still very nice, it's more the surrounding area that concerns us.  We are no where near the age of a retirement complex.  Our kids keep suggesting a condo, but we do not even like the thought of downsizing to a condo, with little to no yard space for our dog. 

PatH., did you ever get moved closer to your family?

[hongfan]

Thank you, JoanK, I have ordered the Joy of Yiddish, it's on the way!

I tend to think the same way as Bellamarie that we know when we will "exit" life. I had the similar experience as the author. Earlier this year I went to Shanghai to see my parents and then visited my husband's grandma who was 99 at that time. She went through so much in life but had been always positive and kind to everyone. I usually visited her a couple of times a year and witnessed her decline in the last 6-12 months when she started not to remember my name, although I think she still remembered my face after some time. The last time I saw her was the last time I saw her. It was in the last winter and she no longer got up anyone. I was sitting beside her bed side and talked to my husband's aunt for a hour and half during which she was just lying there and didn't show any sign indicating that she knew there was a visitor. At last, I said I had to leave and after took a few steps towards the door, I realized that I hadn't say goodbye to her yet, so I went back to her bedside, touched her forehead, and said to her "Grandma, I have to go now but will come to see you next time." All of suddenly, her facial expression changed and she seemed in a highly emotional state, it surprised me and I didn't know how to read that, and eventually I pat her quilt and said "Grandma, I will come back to see you next time, take care." I left for the States a day after I visited her and after I landed in here, we got the call that she had just passed away.

I think she knew that I wouldn't see her next time, she knew the time was coming. When I heard the news, I felt that I was fortunate to be with her at her last moment. I guess she was holding on waiting for my husband who she herself reared up and was her favorite grandson, maybe my presence in some way made her feel she could go now? She could exit now?

And they said people interviewed those who jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge and eventually survived, the law of physics couldn't explain why those could survive, and after they interviewed those people, they found, without any exception, all of them changed mind and wanted to live after they jumped!

I guess it's ourselves that ultimately give the nod, and say yes, let's go.

[bellamarie]

Hongfan,  I have experienced the same thing as you speak of, the dying holding on for that one certain person to come before they finally feel it's okay to die.  My priest was actually giving the Homily today, and mentioned this very thing.  I have no doubt her anxiousness when you were leaving was her attempt to say good-bye to you.  I am so glad you and your hubby had that last visit with her.

So on to chapter 2 "We Don't Wrap Herring in a Printed Page" what every could this refer to?

[PatH]

Bellamarie and Hongfan, I agree with you that Schmuel knew he was dying before that last interview, and also that he may have hung on to give a last winding up to their discussions.  Look at his final remarks: On this note about God we finish now.  You have all I can give you.  Take it and do something with it.  What it is, I don't know.  How you will do this with all your ignorance, I cannot think, but maybe something comes together and makes sense for you.  We'll see.

Then he calls her maidele, the first time he has used an endearing term, and tells her to go home; he's tired.  And for the first time ever, he doesn"t walk her to the door.

[Jonathan]

Congratulations, Joan. You've made a convert. Hongfan, you will love the book. It's a marvellous introduction to a marvellous language. I've always thought of Yiddish as fractured German. No, let's say a metamorphoses. And a marvellous literature was created with it in the hundred years before the Holacaust.

I'm touched and moved by all your posts. What a beautiful little poem, Barb.

Ginny asks: 'Does it seem strange that it took three days for the author to get news of Shmuels death?' Yes, it does. And she felt hurt. She had worked so closely with him for a long time, and I believe Rebekah may have become jealous. Within days Rebekah is off to Philadelphia to see the grandchildren, and I have no doubt that she became observant immediately. As the son already was. Couldn't that be the reason why he stayed away? He didn't want his sons to be influenced by their grandfather. How tragic.

But the author doesn't mind admitting that she was enamoured of Shmuel. She gives him an entire chapter and closes his life with it. But she brings him  back as we shall see. She was awfully close to her subject, to the point where she herself becomes part of the story.

[ANNIE]

Bubble, Robby is still around but spends most of his time on Facebook. When I go to FB, seems like he reallly never left.  He will be 97 in Dec and he has retired but is always inviting any of his former patients plus old friends to call him or to just come visit. Never a dull moment when Robby is around.  He rejoined us when Ella Gibbons died. But he drifted back to FB. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Shmuel says he is like a polished arrow - it appears not everyone questions and they are uncomfortable with questions leading to new connections with other than traditional answers - if Shmuel and Rebekah's sons keep a more traditional Jewish home that probably means they are content with traditional answers and by Shmuel's very nature he would be an arrow in their midst - but then thinking the other side of that scenario, where you are not yourself to keep peace then, you are letting go of who and what you are because you are dependent on the good-will between father and son and that is the defining basis for being co-dependent.

Thinking further, I think we do ourselves wrong if we measure our parenting by the behavior and nature of our grown children - the best of parents have children who end up addicted or unkind or petty criminals and even some who become major criminals - they do not all come from uncaring bad parents - so I am thinking, the better way to parent is to do our best with no expectations for outcome - we measure our own behavior as parents based on our measure of our highest and best, not on a measurement set by the behavior of our grown children or the measurements set by society that seem to change every 15 to 20 years of what is supposed to be good parenting - parenting is a big task that is best worked on by being able to look ourselves in the mirror and believe we did our best regardless of the outcome.

I think that is how Shmuel had to consider his relationship with his boys - He could not magically, as an old man acquire so much wisdom therefore, as a young man, a young Dad, he had to be questioning and seeking truth which he valued over tradition - being himself, he established his relationship with his boys who did not share his curiosity, questioning nature, his adventures into truth finding - neither were bad - Shmuel was not a bad parent and his boys were not bad children or bad man - what it does appear to have happened is Shmuel taught his boys by his example to stick to your guns and not give up who you are to please another even if the other is a loving and lonely elder parent.

Shmuel's life experience taught him that all the love in the world cannot make up for lost integrity or make up for throwing away you personality, which are gifts from God, even for a comfortable, easy love relationship with your children  - we hear and this story shows us, we all die alone and to give up on ourselves, the recipient of our unacknowledged gifts does not jump into the grave with us. 

Shmuel is a proud man who raised children who were as proud - he did not pat himself on the back for that accomplishment - it brought him sadness and a loneliness not unlike the parent whose adult child is an addict or serving time in prison. Which again says to me, we take on the task with all the love in our heart but be satisfied with each day rather then expect what we give will affect the outcome - to expect our picture of the outcome further suggests the children are appendages of our fantasy story for their life rather than, individuals whose life choices are affected by so much more and many more than just parents.

So I'm reading Rebekah visiting her grands after the death of Shmuel is because she is no longer a loving partner enjoying her life with Shmuel and now, rather than sit alone being lonely with only her memories of their life together she adds the easy, the love that exists - her children and grands are much easier to immediately have a loving life experience than the challenge of making new intimate friends. Because after Shmuel's death even her relationship with long time friends would change - especially, if the friends are married couples - she becomes Rebekah not Rebekah, wife of Shmuel. 

[so P bubble]

Barb, very profound analysis.  It did make me understand better my own relationship with my kids as I never thought out why I did the same.  I believed  I simply was  egotistical and putting myself first.

Shmuel is quite a character with a lot of insight on life. It all came from his eventful life, the difficult events he went through.
Many holocaust survivors have kept the horror bottled up and kept to themselves.  I did met a few who like Shmuel were made stronger and had a positive view on their new life. They did  turned away from a God who they said abandoned them in time of need.

Thank you Annie. I am not on FB.

[bellamarie]

I did not get the impression Rebekah was jealous of the time Myerhoff and Shmuel spent together.  She knew it was important for his story to be told.  Never did I feel either of them were more involved than doing the work that needed to be done.  Myerhoff did not express being hurt for  not being notified of Shmuel's death earlier.  If anything I felt Rebekah and Myerhoff exchanged a nice good-bye after the services.

pg.  76 Then Abe asked me to speak, responding to a sign from Rebekah.
pg.  77  Then it was over and Rebekah and I hugged each other.  We said we would meet  again when she returned from a long visit to her son.

I think Rebekah going to visit their only son, after losing Shmuel is something I would do.  She could be with their two grandchildren and  feel close to their son, it could help her through this sad time.  I did not feel the son had any disdain or ill feelings toward his father, he just chose a life further away.  Shmuel was still sending money to the son to help the two grandchildren.  That gives no indication there was a rift or bad blood between them.  Maybe we will learn more about their relationship later in the book, but at this point I think the fact the son was raising his two children in the Jewish faith is a testament to his pride and love for his parents.

Barb, 

I think we do ourselves wrong if we measure our parenting by the behavior and nature of our grown children

Hmmm... that is something for me to think about.  I do feel a sense of pride when I look at my three grown adult children who have successful, faith filled lives, and I certainly like to think I had something to do with it.  They have many times thanked me and their father for giving them the life we did, knowing the sacrifices we made, so they could go to good schools, know their faith, and become the adults/parents they are today.  It was not all an easy smooth path for them to get there, but in the rough times my hubby and I were there for them, reminding them we were always there for support, to listen and even a home for them to always return to if need be, which all three needed at a certain time after moving out.  The one thing they always knew was we kept God as our nucleus in our family, and we still today when their families have rough spots, we remind them to turn to God and pray for His guidance.  I as a parent take the good, the bad and the ugly and yes the successes where my children are concerned.  I don't NEED any acknowledgement for being a parent, and I don't need to measure my self from being a parent, but surely I do feel our grown children are a reflection of myself and their father. My daughter in laws are always thanking me for raising our sons to be such Christian men/fathers/husbands.  So, whether we do measure ourselves or not, others certainly measure us, and I am okay with that. 

[hongfan]

Hongfan, you will love the book. It's a marvellous introduction to a marvellous language.

Jonathan, there are about 30 volumes of books in Hebrew sitting on my shelf right now - I bought them a little more than 10 years ago, I also have the Hebrew Bible. Hebrew has been on my list for ancient languages that I want to learn - it's just that I have been kept busy with Classic Greek and Classic Latin so far (you must know now who is my wonderful wonderful wonderful Latin teacher, right?)

Adding Yiddish to it ? I don't know yet but am absolutely interested in being introduced to - ultimately it's the people and culture that I want to get to!

Many many years ago, I heard someone said Chinese and Jewish are alike, I forgot what specifics this comment was related to. But I guess ancient cultures and people are all alike in some aspects, although Jewish is very much linked to religion, while Chinese is very much not.

[Jonathan]

'...it's the people and culture that I want to get to!
Many many years ago, I heard someone said Chinese and Jewish are alike.'

Congratulations, hongfan, for all you have achieved in studying the classic languages. And, yes, I've heard many fine things said about your teacher. And she seems to have considerable knowledge of and great insight into the subject matter of our book, which is a treasure of Jewish culture.

Have you ever wondered if the Chinese people are a 'lost Hebrew tribe'? Like the English. Or that tribe on the west coast of India, who practice ancient Hebrew rites. My nephew feels he has ancient Hebrew roots, and lives somewhat accordingly. Like Shmuel, he's fascinated with the prophet Jeremiah. I started on Hebrew myself, along with a few other seniors, but something came up and I dropped it.  I do remember being sent home after the first class with pages of Hebrew verb conjugations and a variety of grammatical rules with the encouragement: memorize these and you'll never get Alzheimers. Now, isn't that a great incentive?

Congratulations, Bellamarie, on your great family life. What a blessing. And a long life to the children.

I found very interesting what you, Bubble, and Barb have posted about Shmuel. A great character, but why did he feel hurt by his son? Perhaps the next chapter will shed some light on it. Can we identify the herring and the printed pages, among all the clashing traditions and innovations of Jewish life in America?

[JoanK]

I spent a lot of time and effort learning Hebrew when I was in Israel (Bubble and I once figured out that if I had come just a few months earlier, we would have been in the same Hebrew class. as it was, I ended up at the other end of the country).

But now, I never get to use it, and I've forgotten more than I knew. The rare chances I get to hear it, I can no longer understand.  I once complained to a friend that I wanted things to read in Hebrew, and she sent me Kafka in Hebrew! I can't even understand him in English!!!

[bellamarie]

Thank you Jonathan, that is very sweet of you.  I wish the same for you and yours.

I got the impression Shmuel was hurt basically due to the fact his son chose to live far away from he and Rebekah,  which did not allow them to be a part of the grandkids everyday life.  It will be interesting to see if later Rebekah reveals any thing other than that to cause them hurt.  I felt it was a general statement Shmuel made meaning our children will eventually hurt us by the choices they make.

JoanK.,  I think like the saying goes,  If you don't use it, you lose it.  I'm impressed you learned Hebrew and lived in Israel.  The furthest I have ever traveled is Arizona and Las Vegas.  I did go to Toronto, Canada which is outside the U.S. but that's the extent of my travel.

[ginny]

I have so been enjoying all your comments, they are their own living history and I think all of you are profound. It's almost better than the book, it's certainly as meaningful and interesting,  and I thank you all for all of them. What stories YOU have!

But now let's start to look at  Chapter 2, (I thought of Barbara and heard Walter  Winchell again in this one, I am interested to see what Barbara thinks on Chapter 2), which starts out with a BANG. I almost came back in and said this chapter is too long, let's divide it because of all the topics in the first couple of pages but then I thought, that would eventually turn into a year's book discussion hahaha, and then I finished Chapter 2.

The good news: Shumel is back! I sure was glad to see him in all the anthropological explaining about ritual.  Either I kept losing my place and rereading or that bit needed an editor, which was it, do you think? It seemed quite repetitive. Or is it just me, and the jet lag?

BUT what DID you think about her rationale or explanation of what RITUAL is and the purpose it serves? Do you agree?

I loved the tape recordings of the Center folks and their frank opinions. The whole book could have been that, for my sake. Studs Terkel did a wonderful job with that sort of thing, but this one has more value, perhaps, as it provides an analytical explanation which somehow manages to capture something in our own lives as well. Did it work this time?

  "We  don't know from..." I haven't heard that in years, nor many of these words. Like a step back in time. And I had to look up a lot of words this time, too, like myseh, and Siyum.

Which of the Center folks who we get to know in this section do you like (I hate to use that word in a book discussion, but I will) the best and why?  They are all very different characters with very different perspectives.

What did you think about the meaning of the chapter title: "We don't wrap herring in a printed page?" 

On page 80 Max gives his definition of the difference in being religious and being a Jew. "Between being  Jewish and being religious is a difference.  If you don't put your hand out against injustice I don't care if you pray all day. You may be religious, but by me this isn't  a Jew."

What was is opinion of this thought?

I love these sayings, I love these stories, there seem to be a million
 of them.

What does this mean?  "If you study history, you lose an eye. If you don't study history you lose two eyes." (Nathan page 80)

It's a very rich panoply of cultures and voices in the first few pages but then we come to  the Graduation Ceremony, the Siyum,  planned by Kominsky, which I really would like your take on.

Obviously he meant well. It was a lovely idea, and you saw the number of framed certificates. Did it, however, come out well? Why or why not?  Should he have invited the children, and relatives, and when few responded (why not?) should he have then continued with his planned speech?

What was the result of the Siyum?

There is a LOT in this chapter, so much.  These are just a couple of possible jumping off places, but if  you would like to talk about one of the other thousand points, please do.

My favorite quote in the whole book so far: Page 94: "If you are ignorant,  old age is a famine. If you are learned, it is a harvest."  (Sofie). Do you agree or disagree? What IS ignorance?

[so P bubble]

Sorry, but I will be mostly silent for now on, not having the book, nor this chapter, but I will enjoy the comments and keep them in mind for later.

[ginny]

HO!! Whoa, say not so. I put (laboriously) half of those quotes in here for you, too,  as I wanted your opinion on them!

Don't go anywhere, is your book taking a slow boat or something? How fast can you get a book from the US? I've got an extra one I can send you? Pages are yellow, tho.

[ginny]

Bubble said, ""We must stay involved to the last minute.
That keeps you active, does not let you fall in passivity.  It brings interest and makes you forget the pain about kids or others. Being active is living, is making the mind work and stay alert."

And Chapter 2 seems to be all about that. There are so MANY quotes about old age in it and learning. But the author seems to take a different tack in her analysis of the situation in page 103:

"Shimuel did remark on the other painful truth, that the old people were not really equipped  to study. They lacked the educational background, and as their eyes dimmed, their hearing faded, their ability to concentrate, to master new materials, and to attend lengthy classes waned, study was more and more a strain. Far from being a lifelong, time-free activity, as the ritual claimed, it was another of the many losses of advancing age." (Page 103)...

Contrast this  with  the saying on page 90: "Scholarship was described as the essence of Judaism and the 'luckiest man among Jews was a retired man who had the freedom to study Torah to his fill.'"

If I understand her remark on page 103, I disagree with it. And Shmuel.

There are methods and methods in education. I know elders are not incapable of learning, from my own experience and I can prove it statistically:  in the state of SC there were 12 perfect scores on the National Latin Exam in SC  in 2017, just a couple of months ago, and thousands of students from all levels, including 24 colleges took the exam. 10 of those scores were from our..."oldsters." With less vision, maybe, less hearing, maybe,  but not less brains.  I really disagree with her  and his assessment.

Study in old age is a blessing, not a loss. In fact, studies have proven that you actually increase the synapses in your brain from doing certain mental activities connected with study and learning something new.

And if this were so, why did Shumel go to the Center to educate the people there?

[bellamarie]

Bubble, Please to do not be silent.  We need your knowledge and insight, especially for this chapter. 

Ginny, I felt much like you as I began reading Chapter 2, phew..... I didn't think I would ever understand much, or get through the chapter.  I'm hoping through our discussion we will all be able to help each other with understanding this particular chapter. 

I was talking with my friend yesterday who is a converted Catholic, she and her husband the deacon of our church, lead our yearly Bible Study group, she also taught high school Religion class at a Catholic High School here in Toledo for many years.  So, I told her about this chapter and about Shmuel not believing in God.  She said it's not surprising some Jews choose not to believe in God after what they have gone through.  She said many live for today, because they don't believe there is anything more after they die.  I guess I can understand people losing faith after living through a holocaust,  I wonder if I, as a Christian, who has never experienced any type of devastation in my life, have the luxury of believing in God through my tradition, family, faith and scripture.  Throughout the Bible, especially the Old Testament, we see where there was devastation to different tribes, cities, countries etc.  We have lived through many wars that have annihilated people's homeland, causing them to flee.  I think of them fleeing from Egypt and how many years they spent aimlessly wandering in the desert looking for the promised land.  Generations died off during this time.  The people lost faith, faith was tested.  We know God did not ever promise us a paradise, except and until we reach Heaven.  I guess in reading this chapter and this book, learning more and more about the Jews attitudes and beliefs, it bring a reality closer to me of how some reach a breaking point, and turn from such a belief.  I am not judging, I am observing something that I was not ever aware of.  I know there are Agnostics and Atheists, I guess hearing Shmuel say he was Agnostic and did not believe in God, opened my eyes and mind to something I had never given much thought to.

I do agree with Shmuel's assessment of "the painful truth the old people were not equipped to study."

Ginny, I like your statistics, and it gives me hope for the elderly, although I must say that the statistics are probably higher where the elderly do not continue to educate themselves due to all the reasons Shmuel pointed out.  It's not to say they are not at all capable of still being educated, it's just these issues can deter them in their old age.  I myself hope I will always have some way to continue being educated as I age, even in spite of any of these handicaps. 

[so P bubble]

Apparently the book will take at least another two weeks to get here:(  It was not air mailed.

Max gives his definition of the difference in being religious and being a Jew. "Between being  Jewish and being religious is a difference.  If you don't put your hand out against injustice I don't care if you pray all day. You may be religious, but by me this isn't  a Jew."

I agree!  The very religious object to compulsory army service.  For them prayers are enough, if God will, He will save his people... This od course causes lots of friction.  If a religious youth does decide to go into the army he is ostracized by his family and neighbors, or has to change to civil clothes before getting back home so no one would know.
For me to be a good person, help the other whenever possible, be honest in dealing in daily life, this is a good Jew, not the one in yeshiva learning all the precepts and praying all day long but observing the rules, not participating in real life.

Formal studies in old life is not essential. What is, is to learn from other's experience, to learn to adapt to a changing modern environment. Learning to use the computer for example, even if it is only for the richness of contact with people we would not have otherwise an opportunity to meet.

"why did Shmuel go to the Center to educate the people there"
Maybe to share his own experiences?

explanation of what RITUAL is and the purpose it serves
I think it is the fabric that unites the "People of Israel", the common thing that is the same for all of us around the world, no matter the origin, the language, the education.  The lighting of the Shabbat candles, the fasting of Kipur, the rules for kosher food for example.

 

[bellamarie]

What do you all think "We don't wrap herring in a printed page" actually means?

For me I think it's in the very first response Nathan gives to Rachel about her granddaughter marrying a boy who wasn't Jewish, but was going to become a convert.

pg. 79  Nathan:  I would have to say to your granddaughter that even if her husband converts that won't make him a Jew.  You could say a broche (Blessing) over a chicken, that won't make him a fish."

Basically I can agree with Nathan, we are who we are. Even though we can move to another country, we can change religions, we can intermingle with all races and creeds, we essentially can not mask who we really are.  Wrapping yourself in a different "printed paper" does not change who you are.  I am Italian, Irish, Indian American, if I move to Mexico it will not change who I am, even though I may learn Spanish, dress in Mexican customs, and live among them..... I will remain who I was born.  From what I can comprehend from Nathan is that being Jewish is from birth, not a chosen religion.

I have a niece who was raised Catholic.  She made her first Communion and Confirmation.  Their family celebrated all the holidays and went to church and was involved in functions in their community.  They were active in many social programs, and from all aspects their daughter seemed very happy and contented.  She met a Jewish man, fell in love, and for the sake of his family she chose to become Jewish.  Once they had children eventually she began celebrating Christmas and other religious holidays with their children.  So even though she hoped to share his faith with him she eventually found herself returning to her faith and traditions.  Sadly to say after twenty-five years of marriage, moving from state to state when her husband quit jobs and found new ones, she not having any lasting friendships from constant moves and him not allowing her to work, now that their children are all grown he took her to Europe came home and asked for a divorce.  He has all his wealthy family's inheritance and had her move out of their very expensive home.  Our family feels so bad for her.  It makes me wonder, did she wrap herself up in a printed page all these years, trying to be someone she wasn't to please her husband?  Do we do more harm to our self when we try to change or be something different for others?

[bellamarie]

I have to share this with you all, because I thought it was so interesting and comical.  I always share my book discussions with my hubby.  He came into the room while I was posting and I said to him, "Let me ask you a question, without too much deep thought, what does hearing this mean to you,  "We don't wrap herring in a printed page."

He said,  "If you wrap fish in a printed page the ink will come off on the fish." He then said, "Which you wouldn't want to happen."

I laughed, and then said,  "WOW!  That is really interesting!"

Just  a thought to ponder.... 

[BarbStAubrey]

Busy couple of days so I am only now reading the second chapter - first page is a doozy isn't it - we get into:

Metaphysics --- the branch of philosophy that is the study of being/existence - meta=beyond physics=matte - Does God exist?- Do we have a nonphysical side?- Is there a soul when we die? Questioned by the likes of: Aristotle, Plato, Kent, St. Augustine, Bertram Russell, John Stuart Mill, Nietzsche, Duns Scotus, (one of the three most important philosopher-theologians of the High Middle Ages. Scotus has had considerable influence on both Catholic and secular thought.) Alvin Plantinga, {Emeritus Professor of Philosophy Notra Dame} Sa'adya Gaon,(is considered the greatest early Jewish philosopher) David ibn Merwan al-Mukkamas, (author of the earliest known Jewish philosophical work of the Middle Ages, a commentary on the Sefer Yetzirah; he is regarded as the father of Jewish medieval philosophy) Profiat Duran, who wrote, Be Not Like Your Fathers Duran's chief work, praised by both Christians and Jews, is his philosophical and critical Hebrew grammar, "The making of the ephod" and many more...

Aritstotle originally split his metaphysics into three main sections

Ontology - the study of being and existence, including the definition and classification of entities, physical or mental, the nature of their properties, and the nature of change

Natural Theology -the study of God, including the nature of religion and the world, existence of the divine, questions about the creation, and the various other religious or spiritual issues

Universal Science -the study of first principles of logic and reasoning, such as the law of noncontradiction

To consider is our physical being, that only recently I learned we are made of atoms - you can look up the various parts of our body that are made of a set number of atoms - One of the three biggest components of an atom is protons - it turns out that protons are older than the universe. Mind blowing - before the 'big bang' We easily can trace the development of our physical being through evolution and so any Jewishness would have to be located in our consciousness that holds our memory - so how did consciousness develop - it is not physical - it appears to be electrical as in electrons that are within the protons - and so does our consciousness also predate the big bang and how does that work with memory - I'm still reading tons to find the origination of our consciousness that appears to be the beginning of humanity rather than our physical body that evolved.

My gut says there was not a certain group of consciousness connections that set a group of people as Jewish - it has to be a collective set of beliefs and a culture of behavior, logic, practices. As to Olga living as a girl in a Jewish country - where would that be exactly - Israel was only established after WWII - these are elders and so the likelihood of living as a child in a fully formed Israel seems unlikely - my memory of reading and seeing the news and a movie of the early days were of more communal living where groups were focused on growing and building Israel that yes, as a child would be a certain form of Jewishness but survival and group protection seemed to be the emphasis.

As to writing on Sunday and keeping track of money would be practices followed by some Jews - again, my gut says not ever Jewish person follows these practices and by not following these specific practices does not seem to make them any less Jewish - and so I think we need a better definition of being Jewish. Or maybe each person that is Jewish has their own definition creating their Jewish identity.

As to personal identity, Harold Noonan, in his book “Personal Identity”(2003 Routledge) says;

Man has always hoped to survive his bodily death, and it is a central tenet of many religions that such survival is possible, and what forms, if any, it might take, are matters which depend crucially on the nature of personal identity over time. 

[Jonathan]

Reading Kafka in Hebrew!!! Now that's wrapping a fish in something far more precious than it. Try reading Kafka in Yiddish, Joan. It must be available. Without a doubt, Yiddish would be much better attuned to Kafka's modern thought, humor and ambiguities than the language of holy writ. I have Dostoyevski's Crime and Punishment in a Yiddish translation. The 'guilty feeling' scenes are really impressive.