Number Our Days

[BarbStAubrey]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us June 15! 

Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 1

Chapter 2: Ritual and the  Graduation



1. What do  you think about her rationale or explanation of what RITUAL is and the purpose it serves? Do you agree?

2. On page 80 Max gives his definition of the difference in being religious and being a Jew. "Between being  Jewish and being religious is a difference.  If you don't put your hand out against injustice I don't care if you pray all day. You may be religious, but by me this isn't  a Jew."

What was is opinion of this thought?

3. What does this mean?  "If you study history, you lose an eye. If you don't study history you lose two eyes." (Nathan page 80)

4. Obviously he meant well. It was a lovely idea, and you saw the number of framed certificates. Did it, however, come out well? Why or why not?  Should he have invited the children, and relatives, and when few responded (why not?) should he have then continued with his planned speech?

What was the result of the Siyum?

5. My favorite quote in the whole book so far: Page 94: "If you are ignorant,  old age is a famine. If you are learned, it is a harvest."  (Sofie). Do you agree or disagree? What IS ignorance?

What is YOUR favorite quote?

[BarbStAubrey]

Have not read it all but this appears to be a pretty good essay on the Philosophy of Culture - from, What is Culture to Cultural Transmission and Examples of Cultural Influence (language, perceiving and thinking, emotions, morality) to Philosophical Intuitions and Culture.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/culture-cogsci/

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow --- Dangerous because when we are not convinced by a ritual we may become aware of ourselves as having made them up, thence on to the paralyzing realization that we have made up all our truths; our ceremonies, our most precious conceptions and convictions-all are more invention, not inevitable understandings about the world at all but the results of morals' imaginings.

Interesting - on a personal note I have been allayed by ritual however, reading the Bible is when I question if the whole thing is the need folks had to elevate life stories, some of which are horrible and frankly horrific behavior by those we are supposed to see as holy so that easily I question the wisdom of conventional and traditional views - however, once I read some of the mystics I get back my footing.

[BarbStAubrey]

Fish is one of the oldest symbols that are used for traditional kosher cooking. Herring is often used as a symbol of the hard life of Jews in various countries in which they settled.

Even when it's only a newspaper, it shouldn't be used for anything but study.

Does 'We don't wrap herring in a printed page' mean we do not combine the hardship experienced by Jews with the respect for the religious aspect of learning from the printed page?

Are the four related but distinguishable inflections of Judaism explained on page 95 the explanation for Olga saying, I'm Jewish all over, even if it don't show.

[so P bubble]

I am curious: what are " the four related but distinguishable inflections of Judaism explained on page 95" ?

[ginny]

Yes, chapter 2 is a killer, isn't it? Why IS that?

Once everybody has had a chance to read it, it will be very interesting to hear your thoughts on it.

In this chapter the Center's new member has decided the elders need the affirmation of a Graduation or Siyum, for one of their classes and he hopes to get the children and relatives of the group to come to honor the elders. This does not go well but he means well, but he does not divert from his planned speech. I was quite interested in the result of the ceremony and am anxious to hear what you all thought.

Then we get the analyzing of what's happened and a lot more issues arise, as Barbara has mentioned. I found the analysis of what is Ritual to be.....interesting. People don't like their religious rituals analyzed, and I am wondering what your take on this is? I found it endlessly repetitive and in need of an editor but i MAY have been guilty of rereading some areas, myself, in trying to get through it. Walter Winchell is shouting in this chapter and it  MAY be all in my head.

Bubble, I'd love to type that for you but I can't find the book which I carried all over the house trying to finish the jargon in Chapter 2. I hope somebody else can condense that for you as it's really WAY beyond my ability to reproduce. And it WAS complicated.

As Barbara says, she's all over the place with this chapter analysis and it gets a lot worse beyond the first two pages. I'm finding a lot of value in the quotes of the Center members in this chapter and I've put some of them in the heading hoping that you all might  comment or give your own "best quote" of the chapter when you have the chance.

Joan K, and Jonathan, Kafka in Hebrew!! hahahaha Well now THERE is a challenge. Hebrew is quite interesting to view, isn't it? I don't have a knowledge of it but in the National Museum of Rome this time in the Thermae of Diocletian Museum they had a pillar of the oldest Latin inscriptions found and they were written if I remember correctly in Boustrophedon form, which means boustrophēdón "ox-turning" from βοῦς, bous, "ox", στροφή, strophē, "turn" and the adverbial suffix -δόν, "like, in the manner of"; that is, turning like oxen in ploughing) is a kind of bi-directional text, mostly seen in ancient manuscripts. It starts on the right and when it gets to the end of the line comes back in the next line like our text, from the left.

Now am I right that Hebrew reads this way, from right to left? And do the lines then come back as described here? Or are the words themselves written backwards, so that the word "word" would be written as dorw?

I've always wanted to try it.

Maybe as a result of our cross cultural experience here we should learn one word of Hebrew to impress our friends? We'd need something which would type it in the original too.

But Jonathan, can you put a line of the Yiddish Dostoevsky? I'd love to see it.

Bellamarie and Barbara, on the "we don't wrap herring in a printed page," Barbara is closest to the explanation given in the book:  "We don't wrap herring in a printed page' means we do not combine the hardship experienced by Jews with the respect for the religious aspect of learning from the printed page?"

It's  quite interesting the respect for the printed page revealed here in the later parts of the chapter. But my question had more to do with what you all thought of the reasoning? I mean there are printed pages and printed pages.

Bellamarie, like your husband I thought it meant the print would come off, and that sent me into a long seque to the times the newspapers were treated with some chemical that the newsprint did not come off in your hands. Those days are apparently gone, I could make handprints of the local papers which, incidentally, are getting smaller and smaller, I'm sure you've all noticed.

Thank you for those links, Barbara. I think this chapter could take us about anywhere we'd want to go philosophically. Ritual is an important part of some religious ceremonies, so her analysis of it and what it has to have to be effective is quite interesting.

This is an interesting statement that Bellamarie made: Basically I can agree with Nathan, we are who we are. Even though we can move to another country, we can change religions, we can intermingle with all races and creeds, we essentially can not mask who we really are.  Wrapping yourself in a different "printed paper" does not change who you are.  I am Italian, Irish, Indian American, if I move to Mexico it will not change who I am, even though I may learn Spanish, dress in Mexican customs, and live among them..... I will remain who I was born. 

I am not sure I agree with that. (Not about you personally but about people in general). I think the more different cultures you are exposed to change you, the more you travel the more you learn and those little experiences subtly change your understanding of the world. It doesn't make you change from who  you "are," it makes you better. That's my take on it. What do the rest of  you think?

  Not in an argument, but in an exchange of opinion. It expands your horizons but more importantly, your understanding of basic things--that's sort of how I look at it.

Talking about herring, the first herring I ever had I had was  on New Year's Eve beck in the '60's when an elderly  man knocked on the door of my then boyfriend and invited us to a New Year's Eve celebration they were having downstairs in his apartment building in NJ. They were Jewish and herring in sour cream with onions was on the buffet and I've had it every New Years Day ever since: it's good luck,  or so I think.  With onions. Forget the black eyed peas and collard greens. Herring in sour cream with onions for luck,  and also Mince pie for the 12 Days of Christmas, one bite for each day.

Bellamarie picked this up and I keep ignoring it and I think it's a good idea to talk about it: pg. 79  Nathan:  I would have to say to your granddaughter that even if her husband converts that won't make him a Jew.  You could say a broche (Blessing) over a chicken, that won't make him a fish."

Over and over in the book we keep seeing people being told you're not a Jew, or they are not Jewish.  Look at Bubble being told, in Israel, yet,  if she didn't speak Yiddish, then you're not Jewish. Shmuel says the same thing. And now Nathan, and they aren't the only ones.

So here is presented a state of being which it seems that people can't really attain, no matter what? But when we look at the new synagogue and center in CA, it seems a very welcoming place. So I'm confused.

So I have to ask, what, in the eyes of these speakers DOES allow people to be Jewish? Is this a particular trait of the Askenazi, who do speak, if I understand it correctly, Yiddish? Is Yiddish it? Do you have to be born into it? What are the rules? Fiorello LaGuardia, according to the list Bubble sent to be put up here, was an Episcopalian. That's a safe denomination to be in, isn't it? But his mother was Jewish, a rabbi was in his mother's family, was it his grandfather?  His name is Italian. Does that make him Jewish?

What about question #3 in the heading? What do they mean you lose an eye?

Penny for your thoughts.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

So I have to ask, what, in the eyes of these speakers DOES allow people to be Jewish? Is this a particular trait of the Askenazi, who do speak, if I understand it correctly, Yiddish? Is Yiddish it? Do you have to be born into it? What are the rules?

These are great questions, the only problem is I'm not sure there are real answers for them.  From reading this chapter I have come to the conclusion there is NO specific answer to these questions.  Finishing the chapter, I told my friend, I have no more clearer understanding of what it is to be a Jew now, then I did before reading the chapter.  It appears each of these characters have their own personal feeling about what it is to be a Jew.  Since I am not a Jew, and know little to nothing about Jews or Judaism, I have to muddle through what all these Jews are saying and try to best assess it for myself.  For some being a Jew is about being born into it, for others it is about religion, for yet others it is about Yiddish.  I've got one response to all of this.....Mama Mia!! 

Gosh Barb, I love how you go into the deeper part of things and make me really think.  I'm just not sure the elderly or the author intended to go there, but I thank you for doing so.  Herring and paper has a whole new meaning for me! 

I don't think the title of this chapter is meant to be a teaser, twister, philosophical or analytical title.  I think it is pretty simple, you can't mask or cover up who you are from birth.  Ginny reading your response to my thought about living in other cultures it seems you and I see it the same way.  You can learn their language, customs and live in their culture, grow as a person but.......essentially you are who you are.  It can change your ideas, outlook, and yes, even change your religion, but it can not make you different from who you were born, this is my understanding of what Nathan is saying when he says, a convert can never really be a Jew. 

The whole ceremony seemed rather mish mash for me.  The children didn't want to be there.  It was not going well at all.  It almost seemed like the author needed to fill up pages. 

Shmuel seems to think like me when he states on pg. 102  "Then they have to do it the right way,'  he answered.  "If they want a siyum let them go to shul and study Torah.  But this they couldn't do if they wanted to.  They haven't got the background.  They haven't got the understanding.  So they make it together with an American graduation and call it a siyum.  One thing has nothing to do with the other.  In America, you go to school, you study, that's true, but that is not religious study, and when you end it, you are finished.  You get your dipolma and get a job.  So if that's what they want, let them be like Rebekah and go to college.  This also they haven't got the patience or understanding for.  So they put  together two lies and call it a Graduation - Siyum, thinking this makes it even better.  It is to me only twice as foolish.  When they came to America, they couldn't wait to get away from religion.  Now when they are too old to do anything worthwhile, they go back into their past.  In my opinion they are making this party because they haven't got something else to do with their time."

I thought about re reading parts to see if I could get a better understanding, but to be honest, it had my head spinning the first time around.  I'll be patient and read all your posts to see if I can get a clearer understanding, or if there really is NO clearer understanding, because each person sees it from their own personal view.  If the Jews can't conclude what it is to be a Jew, I am quite certain a non-Jew is not going to be able to.  My friend said she has a book on Judaism for Dummies, I can borrow.  I think I may take her up on it.

Ginny,   

Yes, chapter 2 is a killer, isn't it? Why IS that?

I think it's because no two Jews, seem to clarify what a Jew is.  I felt like a hamster spinning on a wheel getting no where. 

[so P bubble]

To be a Jew is ... different for every one of them.  Some will swear it is all about religion (I don't think so). others will say it is something you are born into by having a Jewish mother. That certainly is true, even a Jewish grand ma, for the law of return to the ancestral land. It seems to be an individual feeling or belief.

For me, because I was born one, it is being part of the global Jewish community, willingly or not: others will label you that even if you don't want it!
My parents were not religious (though my maternal grand pas was a rabbi in Cairo Egypt) and never told me about religion.  I never knew about lighting the candles, eating kosher or any other requirements.  No Passover reading but we did get Matza from Israel, it was on the table together with regular bread. (Anathema would say the Ashkenazis!).  But I knew I was called a Jew.  It did not bother me since I did not encounter anti-semitism in Congo.  When my colleagues in school were having catechism lessons, the Jewish girls were allowed to go to the study common room and they could read a book. The other kids were quite jealous of us.

Only in Europe, and then in Israel did I learn the rudiments of religion, and when I had  my own children started to lit the Sabbath candles every Friday night.  I still do not say the blessing, but feel good to be part of the community.  Do I believe in God? I don't know, don't think there is a supreme being overlooking and writing down all the doings and the not observing all the rules written in the Bible.  I believe in being good, honest, treating others with kindness and understanding.  That I think makes me a good Jew.
Probably this is not the answer you expected or wanted.

Shmuel seems to be very articulate and has a good comprehension of what moves the people in the Center.
I see it here too: men reaching retirement and suddenly getting into religion and going to shul or synagogue every day for morning prayers and evening service.  I always believed the wife must be very happy to have that respite from having a man full time there.  

Hebrew is written from right to left;  at the end of the line you go back to the start of the next line, from right to left. Just like in Arabic (semitic languages).
 I would have written a sentence in Hebrew but you need the Hebrew characters on your computer to be able to see it. But maybe you will be able to see it here on this site

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1178760/jewish/Hebrew-Text.htm

The first sentence translates as: All of Israel has a share in the World to Come, as it is said, "Your people are all righteous, they will inherit the land forever."

[hongfan]

Haven't got time to read all your posts, just something I picked up with a quick scan:

Ginny: Now am I right that Hebrew reads this way, from right to left? And do the lines then come back as described here? Or are the words themselves written backwards, so that the word "word" would be written as dorw?

- I am curious too, and also is the Hebrew arranged by rows or by columns? Because traditionally Chinese is written from top to bottom by columns and from right to left too, an image to give you the visual, I don't know why the link is so long:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjipMHhheHUAhVs7oMKHZrOCDsQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftripointtherapy.com%2Fwhat-the-2015-nobel-prizes-mean-for-traditional-chinese-medicine%2F&psig=AFQjCNEsR5plnrdRx-hI93eGI-nsck2VWg&ust=1498756509381323


What impressed me most in this chapter is the emphasis on study by Jewish tradition, it makes me think - would that be what the comment about "Chinese and Jewish are alike" referred to, because Chinese culture also put a great emphasis on education.

Shmuel's attitude towards his folks at the Center is problematic in Chapter 2 and even more so in this chapter. If learning makes a person more critical and harsh to others, what is good about learning then? What I have seen in my life is: the more you learned, the more you become humble - there is a Chinese saying: learn for three days, you can go anywhere, learn for three years, you can go nowhere.

I don't want to be too critical, but Shmuel does bring back some memory of one person, a former boss; He is super smart, and I believe deep down he is a decent person; however he has this big problem he couldn't overcome - he has to trash other people in order to feel good about himself - that is what he has to have to keep him going. Pretty much every meeting we had with him, he had to use the first 50 minutes boasting himself in every way can and trashing everything and everyone he could afford, he would say your presentation is C, or that person doesn't know anything, etc; but once that was over, he was wonderful, he gave you great feedback, made good suggestions and helped you see things from a different angles, etc. I had sympathy for him, I think he had a too successful childhood and young adulthood (gave a talk at UN when he was 5th grader, went to MIT, etc), and it seems unbearably painful to him when he couldn't feel he is above everyone and he is the center of all the attentions (he was a C-level executive, but even so it was not enough for his ego). The consequence is that he had to change from company to company every 2-3 years, no one could keep him for long.

I think Shmuel would be naturally attractive to someone intellectually oriented like the author, because he can talk deep. But his action has not reflected a wise man in my view. Why did he go to the Center? Why did he have to be so critical to everyone and everything? Does he have the same problem as my former boss?

Did he really know Torah's teaching? Did he really practice Torah's teaching?

I don't know but curious about it.

[so P bubble]

hongfan, Hebrew is written by line.  Do you know any  other language apart from Chinese and Japanese written in columns?  Egyptian hieroglyphs too I believe.

Does your name have a meaning?

Interesting site you gave us, I love the elegance of the script.
But what a terrible spelling error: revile for reveal! Ro revile is  to assail with contemptuous or opprobrious language.  They certainly did not mean that for the Nobel Prize.

Yes, a very strong emphasis is made on education, studying, be it the Torah or otherwise. Without it you are nothing.  Children are encourage to learn, to experiment, to be curious about everything.  They also are encouraged to speak up and give their opinion, even in the middle of adults talking.  That I think is different than in China. That might be seen as lack of respect.

I do believe Shmuel knows the T. teachings even if he does not practice them.  Except during the Shoah, that was expect of all the Jewish children (of his generation) in Europe.

[bellamarie]

hongfan,  Wow!  I think you made a great observation of Shmuel in comparing him to your boss.  Do you suppose highly intelligent people have a difficult time socializing on what they would consider a lower level of intelligence than themselves?  Shmuel tells us he read the Torah since he was a young child, he considers being Jewish as not necessarily as being religious, but more so being a good person and caring about others.  Even though he does come over as a bit egotistical, I think in his own mind he does not see himself that way.  He says he goes to the Center because the people need his different points of view.  He thinks he is helping them, in spite of how they treat him.  I'm not so sure I could keep going around people who spat at me, demeaned me and were not welcoming, so I give him credit for not giving up.  I think, HE needed THEM, more than he would be willing to admit.,

Bubble, thank you so much for sharing your feelings about what you personally feel it is being a Jew.  Since you were born one I would think you would be called one.  I have learned something that I had never given a second thought to from you and this book.  I just assumed that all Jews believed in God.  I suppose to some this sounds a bit silly.  I always thought that Agnostics and Atheists were the only people who did not believe in God.   Funny how when I was talking to my friend the teacher of religion and our Bible Study moderator about this, she seemed like it's something she found very normal.  From what Shmuel and you have expressed on what you personally feel it is to be a Jew, I asked my friend, "Then how is it any different than being a Christian other than they do not believe in God or Christ?"  Christians are taught to be Christ like, which is exactly what you and Shmuel explain being a Jew is, treating others with kindness, being involved in social justice, feeding the poor, etc.  What you and Shmuel list are our Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy:

Corporal Works of Mercy:
To feed the hungry.
To give water to the thirsty.
To clothe the naked.
To shelter the homeless.
To visit the sick.
To visit the imprisoned, or ransom the captive.
To bury the dead.

Spiritual Works of Mercy:
To instruct the ignorant.
To counsel the doubtful.
To admonish the sinners.
To bear patiently those who wrong us.
To forgive offenses .
To comfort the afflicted.
To pray for the living and the dead.

So, in spite of our differences about religion and beliefs, when it comes to how we should act, there is no different at all. 

Bubble, 

Children are encourage to learn, to experiment, to be curious about everything.  They also are encouraged to speak up and give their opinion, even in the middle of adults talking.

In America it is considered highly rude.  I have been trying to teach my over excited grandchildren, to please not interrupt while another person is speaking.  I'm of Italian decent and believe me, it's a hard lesson to teach, when you yourself grew up in a room of ten people talking all at the same time.   

[so P bubble]

Bellamarie, I am Italian too and talk a lot with my hands


"So, in spite of our differences about religion and beliefs, when it comes to how we should act, there is no different at all.  "

Do remember that Jesus was Jewish to start with, and educated in the Jewish religion.
I think I follow your works of mercy as a whole, except for admonish the sinners and pray for the living and the dead.  The acts are better than prayers in my eyes.

[bellamarie]

How could I forget Jesus was born a Jew!  Yes, I talk a lot with my hands too.  My hubby said if they tied my hands I would not be able to speak. 

Prayer is important, but without action it would be meaningless.

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (James 2:15-17)

[hongfan]

Do you suppose highly intelligent people have a difficult time socializing on what they would consider a lower level of intelligence than themselves?

Bellamarie - I don't think it is about Intelligence, I have seen so many super intelligent people in my life and around me, much higher on the intelligence index than this my former boss, they didn't have this issue, they might not be interested in conversations unless it is highly intellectually stimulating, but they are not rude or need to belittle others to feel good. It's unfortunate that he somehow couldn't find a way to "cure" it - I knew he is fully aware his problem.

Bubble - I think the reason Chinese is written from top to bottom is because in ancient time Chinese wrote on bamboo strips, and when you arrange them into a roll, it is naturally that you arrange the strips in vertical than in horizontal, and when it is a roll, and most of people are right handed, so you use your right hand to bring the bamboo strip one by one, moving your eye from right to left, the image below may get you an idea:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjxlKvMuOHUAhVE9YMKHdKWByUQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chinadaily.com.cn%2Flife%2F2011-01%2F19%2Fcontent_11882983.htm&psig=AFQjCNF3tvI0v3sfWlQdEjLUlDOFEIgVkg&ust=1498770282239591

I don't know if Korean also wrote from top to bottom in old time, but if it is, I wouldn't be surprised. Both of them were heavily influenced by Chinese culture since ancient times and have used Chinese characters in their language (both Korean and Japanese still write their names in Chinese characters although the pronunciation altered).

What Hebrew was written on in ancient times? parchment?

Meaning for my name - Hong is my first name, literally meaning "red", there are millions people in my generation have that character in their names because we were born during Cultural Revolution, and red is the revolutionary color. My last name Fan, as most of Chinese last names, was named after the place that my ancestors settled. Since our ancestors moved around, so there could be multiple last names originated from the same family. Fan is not a popular last name in China, but associated with many well-known scholars in the history of ancient China.

[Jonathan]

Bubble: 'Do remember that Jesus was Jewish to start with, and educated in the Jewish religion.'

I can't let that pass without mentioning a book on the subject: Sitting At The Feet of Rabbi Jesus, by Ann Spangler and Lois Tverberg. And it's subtitle: How the Jewishness of Jesus can transform your faith.

And a little quote: 'As Gentiles we are not obligated to keep the ceremonial laws given on Mount Sinai, but we can still discover great wisdom within the Torah because Christ himself was the goal toward which the Torah was aiming. And this is our goal too - to be filled wih the love and goodness of our Lord and Rabbi Jesus.' p161

I suppose you could say that Shmuel doesn't suffer fools gladly, but I still see him as one of those truth-speaking prophets of the Old Testament.

Bubble, you were asking about the four 'inflections of Judaism mentioned in the book. They are:

1: The Great Tradition of formal Jewish Law, study, and shared history that makes Jews One People.

2: The local or Little Tradition of Yiddishkeit.

3: Eretz Yisroel, the ingathering of all Jews to Israel, the Promised Land.

4: The Judaism of modern America expressed in nonorthodox temples.

The more I read, the more I'm impressed by this anthropological study This is total immersion in a way of life. A note at the end of the book tells us that a longer version of this chapter was presented 'at a Burg-Wartenstein Conference entitled "Secular Rituals Considered: Prolegomena toward a Theory of Ritual, Ceremony and Formality.'

That must be available somewhere? Could that fourth inflection be seen as assimilation?

Barbara, I share your enthusiasm for mysticism. Is it an escape, or arrival?

I wonder that Hasadism isn't mentioned as an inflection. Too mystic?

[ANNIE]

Busy as I have been, getting ready to move next Wednesday, I always pop in here to read these wonderful posts. All of us are learning so much about the Jewish faith.  And the Jewish people!

Since it's so late and I spent 3 hours at the annual voting for new board members at our condo association meeting, plus I was saying goodbye to a wonderful group of neighbors. 😢😢😢.  I am tired!

So, their are just a couple things I want to talk about.

About the title, I think it's a biblical quote, and the Jewish people had great respect for continual learning throughout their lives, right up 'til they died! They had great respect for the printed word.
Therefore, the title  "We don't wrap herring in a printed page".

When I read what these older Jews were taught as youngsters, then I must remember that the Jews are God's Chosen People according to the Old Testament. And in their different perspectives,
they are all trying to live according to the law of Moses given to him by God. But they are also patrotic Americans or at least they want to be. Hmmm, now in their later years, they seem to be
wondering if they have been good Jewish parents? Have they been faithful Jews?

That's the end of my thoughts for tonight. 🤓❤️❤️💤💤

[BarbStAubrey]

Still have not completed chapter 2 but I am slogging through - she is all over the place with no one giving a good answer to an agreed upon definition of Jewishness. They all have their opinions - but frankly I am getting really annoyed with the lot of them or most of them - all this negative judging of others has stretched my patience to the limit. 

Starts with Nathan - not trying to make Olga feel proud of her granddaughter but pointing out how the husband has a black mark since he cannot really become a Jew - sheesh

Then Olga, not all the good things that she experienced living fairly safely in America as a Jew but no - how America does not make it easy for her with outward support to be a Jew - sure I understand nostalgia for the old country but this negativity drip is a drum beat throughout the chapter..

Then Hannah tells her myseh - not an uplifting story of how this lady deepened her faith and added to her Jewish community but that she was a miser and kept an excessively scrupulous kosher kitchen so that the details of her practice was judged and found to be over the top even by the Rabi.

From Nathan we do not get this fault finding with an individual but rather an observation of the good and bad within mankind.

And the retort by Rachel with a litany of negatives.

So Moshe finds fault with Rachel's reasoning - if it were me I would also but to cover my discontent with all the negative - yep, passive aggression. 

Then the argument elevates and becomes more esoteric

Does not last long and we hear how Schmuel was critical of the graduation and the concept of study - and earlier he several times reminded the author of her ignorance - regardless the rational it was more negative judgment.

Hannah finds fault with Kominsky and the event. In response Sofie at least puts in a positive word and Nathan also adds a positive note.

Even our author talks of the disadvantage in arranging a ritual however, she does give him some kudos for doing a good job - but why start with the negative - the characteristics of ritual could easily have been explained as a positive note telling how Kominsky pulled it off.

Then there goes Hannah again suggesting they are all crazy... She finds fault with him for suggesting they are humble followed by her loudly justifying why she did not invite her children. Sure, being above it all helps to hide the hurt and yes, she could be a hurting lady that has made a partner of being judgemental but it sure is wearing. You just know she has to be judging herself just as harshly - however, it is not encouraging others to see the wonder in life and everyone or to be grateful for what we do have.

A ha that is it - they are all stuck in being perfect Jews and finding fault with anything less than their own personal idea of being the perfect Jew so that gratitude is no where to be found.

Giving out the certificates it is not told or thought of as a purely joy-filled acknowledgement but the negative aspects must be included "Despite poor health and bad weather,"

If these are such unhappy people they are keeping their misery alive and well nourished - there is no Joan Rivers or Mel Brooks or even a Don Rickles in this bunch much less an Anne Frank or Carole King type personality

And yes, I know Jews have been a persecuted people long before the holocaust - part of me though looks at the American Indian - their holocaust we do not read about because we, the whites are the perpetrators - still, to this day Indian babies are removed from parents who live on reservations and freely given to be adopted by whites - Using the smaller numbers that does not include all the Americas (100 million) but just the numbers attributed to the lower 48. We had 22 million as best they can deduce of which we have killed 80% to 90% - using the lower number, 80% that is over 17 million people - To say many died because of disease is suggesting that disease is not part of eliminating vast numbers of other persecuted people including those who died from starvation and disease in the ghettos and the camps - Recently we are aware of the death and torture of the Tibetan people - I do not have numbers but we can see how they, as various other groups, have been slaughtered and kept as second class citizens - Making that memory a daily part of the consciousness, as part of the ingathering of Jews has me wondering if the judgemental viewpoint among this group is the outcome of holding on and owning the unspeakable suffering experienced by those who lived in the camps.

I also wonder if the connection to the Great Being/The Soul of the World, that many call God is missing in the Jewish faith as we hear it is not unusual for many not to believe in God - Did not read that this group adopted the thinking of Spinoza, who said, God or Nature however, the American Indian has the drum that connects them to the heart of the earth and except for the ghost dance (19th century messianic connection to promote the return of the dead and the restoration of traditional ways of life) their dance is to mimic a connection with nature, as the elders and women often stomp barefoot to make a deep connection with the mother earth, who offers strength, vital sacred energy, greater than all they have experienced. 

It is that touchstone we do not hear exists among this group of Jews.   

[so P bubble]

Barb, your post made me laugh in comprehension - I realized that outsiders would not see it as we do: we are a people of complainers, of pointing the negative side of everything. But we do not really take it seriously, it is a way to ward of the evil eye, not to attract envy, or as in the popular saying, not to attract the attention of the Satan.  it become a habit not to show the positive, but only the negative. I am guilty of that as well.
  Would that explain in part the chapter?

Annie - about the printed page.  In the early 60s when I came to Israel, anything printed with the name of God or about the Bible was considered sacred and there was a taboo about using for any purpose. At the Ulpan we were even thought it would be a sin to dirty or tore such a print. Just as old dilapidated prayers books, they had to be disposed of by burying in a consecrated earth plot.  It that was not possible, then they were hidden in a safe place like the    Geniza that was found in Cairo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Geniza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genizah

Jonathan - "Could that fourth inflection be seen as assimilation?" Certainly by our Hasidim.  Some of them are so extreme that they do not recognize the state of Israel which should be in existence only with the coming of the Messiah!
Thank you for the four quotes.  I have to think about that.

hongfan - Thanks about the very informative link on bamboos.  I never realized it was used for Chinese writing in the old time.  For Hebrew   pure animal skins  were used. They were also rolled in scrolls and the writing was with the use of a feather.
About your former boss and similar acting persons, could it not be from trying to hide an inner feeling of insecurity?  It makes them lack these social skills that help dealing with people.
Nǐ jīntiān hǎo ma?  (hard to pronounce with my French accent!)

[ginny]

Just LOOK at these posts! This discussion is SO good, I can say truthfully I hate to say anything lest I spoil the spell. Really.  Am on my way out but will be back tonight, so many subjects raised here of interest, have to drag self away: the better to think on them.

But as luck would have it I had just been reading about the negativity of...not this  Jewish community but elders in general. There are a million articles out there on why older people, not just Jewish people, people everywhere, in every  culture and religion, complain and have a negative attitude.

And I have read that being negative  and critical is one of the few ways an elder has to express his opinion. The theory is apparently that old people like choices, like two year olds, always give them a choice:  it's one of the few ways they can have some control over their lives.  "When I get old I shall wear purple and I shall say whatever I like. I am free to be ME, no more show.  When I am critical, I show that I am discerning..." type of thing.

IS there a tendency when aging to be negative and critical? Do you think it's across all borders, religions and cultures?  Have you ever experienced this in the elderly? Why would an elder be more prone to being critical and negative?

[BarbStAubrey]

IS there a tendency when aging to be negative and critical? Do you think it's across all borders, religions and cultures?  Have you ever experienced this in the elderly? Why would an elder be more prone to being critical and negative?

Yes - and I do not care why - it seems to be more prevalent among folks who are not adjusting to the losses that come with age - for my friend it happened after she turned 93 - and unless you are hanging on to life, I think it is rude, uncalled for, and separating yourself from the larger community who depend on each other to lift all our spirits - life at any age is not always easy - we need each other - So If I hear a person in their 60s, 70s, and even their 80s complaining and wanting attention by finding fault, I smile my greeting and run - we do not need that - if it takes signing on to an inspirational daily reminder or singing hymns or playing inspirational music on one of your devices or adopting a dog then that is what you do - yes, Ginny that is it - acting like a two year old - to wear purple and say what you want does not mean being thoughtless sucking out all the sunshine in a room.

I have a cousin a year younger than I am and a sister who is two and a half years younger - both of them moved North as young adults - is it the weather or what - no, I do not want to ruminate over the what - you would think they would have more self-pride - in fact from the photos it appears my cousin is content dressing each day in what looks like a cotton robe that folks tell me is a housedress - sheesh maybe if she put on some decent clothes she would regain her self pride.

Well that is what I think - no one hears how I think because as I say - I smile and run plus I do notice those elders who 'do' with their head and hands are too busy to be negative - Guys older than I am, who lost their wives and there they are busy building deer blinds or raising veggies they give away or they do a get-together in the evening to play music and the same with women, who if nothing else get their cloth from old clothes the Good Will is discarding and they sew little dresses for the babies of the poor who die so they have something to be buried in or they are researching family history and attending Genealogy meetings or attend the AARP meetings and at the least, prepare themselves and their table to be presentable for a free lunch delivery - on and on it goes as we keep ourselves and each other's spirits high.

My friend, up till 6 weeks before she died after a bad fall, she had a basket on wheels to hold her note paper, cards and stamps and first thing every day she wrote a few notes or cards to folks who she read about in the paper to congratulate or to thank a store she visited for some little thing she noticed or a school teacher and her friends just for grins - she was never far from her binoculars that any movement noticed in the trees she had to take a look-see and look up if she did not know the kind of bird - and when her younger daughter came each month they baked cookies for the firemen. Yes, she had arthritis in her hands and could no longer sew but instead of bemoaning she found other ways to be engaged -

Another, I had a long time friend, who a year after his wife died came down with cancer - he continued to attend church every Sunday till the last couple of weeks and he stayed upbeat with a cheery hello and response to our inquiries to his treatment till the end - I'm working now with an old friend who is in her 60s and down sizing - she is so warm and cheery it is a joy to hear her on the phone - another friend with Parkinsons, who is down sizing to a care facility and it is like a girls night out as a group of us help her clear out her home - Attended a training event the other day and there were 4 of us that sat together, all in our late 70s and 80s fielding the best question because of our years in the business and being as sharp as ever even if our hair is various shades of white - on and on it goes -

For many of us money is tight and gets tighter plus, finding a doctor that will work with us since we are on Medicare is a trick in itself but we can bemoan all that or get on with making the best of it - which is what it appears these folks in the book have done - it is just that nothing pleases some of them - they complain and are negative about anything and everything - no cheery 'Hi friend' with hugs all around when they open the door or meet each other at the Center sheesh. Life is too short with too many atrocities to add to the down spiral by being grumpy, forcing others to feel like when they are around an elder they are walking on cracked eggs - nope, prefer the attitude of the two elder native women left in the freezing wilderness to die, whose children did not save them or stay with them, that we read last year Two Old Women by Velma Wallis.

I wonder if that has something to do with it - the song explains a warm and cozy learning and teaching environment but even that is a fantasy since it is explained the teacher is selfish wanting to get back to his own studies and even uses a whip along with curses - nice -( sarcasm) - no wonder the children grow up to be selfish grumbling and finding fault living on a the top soil of negativity.  And finally... it ends with a generous donation to planting trees, more life, in Israel along with the first we read of hugs and kisses - then wouldn't you know, followed immediately noting the peculiarities of teacher and others. Here we go again...

[bellamarie]

Oh dear all that comes to mind is Eeyore and his gloomy attitude.  Did you know there is actually a book called Eeyore's Little Book of Gloom  Read this book __ then you will be sorry....

Barb you managed to express some of my very thoughts, I just was not sure if I wanted to say them out loud.  History and even today's present state of religious wars show us there has been and continues to be injustices, slaughtering, and disregard for human races, religions and creeds.  The blacks have their own Black Lives Matter March to bring awareness to their injustices.  I'm glad you mentioned the Indians, they too have injustices, we are responsible for, and one more injustice I want to mention while we are on this topic is the number of innocent unborn babies killed by abortion just since 1973 Roe v Wade which is 59,115 ,995 and counting. 
http://www.nrlc.org/uploads/factsheets/FS01AbortionintheUS.pdf 
 More babies are killed in one year in America than were killed in the entire history of Auschwitz.
http://www.catholicmediacoalition.org/auschwitz_abortion.htm

As a Catholic Christian instead of living my life in a negative, gloomy state about these number of abortions, I instead volunteer at a Pro Life non profit pregnancy center, to help pregnant women who make the choice to keep their baby.  One life saved, is one life saved! I'll be glad about that one life, and hope for yet one more.

You touched on what was most troubling and irritating to me about this chapter, all the negativity and complaining.  No one does seem to have a happy, grateful attitude.  Each morning I wake up at the near age of 65, I thank God for my health, my family, faith, for the conveniences I have in my life and look for a positive in my day.  I basically am a happy person and like to bring happiness to others.  These elderly Jewish people seem to repeat the same thing daily, go to the Center and not really see each other, they don't seem to have gratitude in their hearts for what they have.  Maybe if they did believe in God and see what he has brought them through they would not ponder on the negatives, and they would find more joy in their hearts. 

Bubble, 

I realized that outsiders would not see it as we do: we are a people of complainers, of pointing the negative side of everything. But we do not really take it seriously, it is a way to ward of the evil eye, not to attract envy, or as in the popular saying, not to attract the attention of the Satan.  it become a habit not to show the positive, but only the negative.

Yes, as an outsider this would exhaust me to be around so much negativity and complaining, it certainly would ward of envy because not many would want to deal with this on a daily basis.  Outsiders, speaking for myself, see this as Satan in action.  How much happier does it make the devil to see unhappiness, negativity, complaining and cruel behavior to one another.  Even if in fact it is a way of life for being a Jew, it has to hurt the very core of a human being to be spat at, called names, and be isolated.  This was a very troubling chapter for me.  The conversation the elders were having on pg. 81 really gave me so much to think about:

pg. 81  Max:  "It doesn't make any sense for us to take up such big subjests.  The sages couldn't answer what makes a Jew.  We are not scientists.  We are not Einsteins.  We are only ordinary people.  What do we know from God. 
Sonya:  Ordinary people got a right to talk about God.
Heschel:  I'll ask you this.  Where was God when Hitler came around?  Is it possible God could keep quiet through such a thing?  No, from what I have seen, I would tell you that if there is a God, He has a heart of stone.  The things I saw, I couldn't speak about.  It takes the heart out of me.
Sonya:  So if we got the way you do, we help Hitler make a success of his work and we don't have no more Jews.

This made me really give a lot of thought to what Sonya said, while I have been trying to comprehend how some Jews say they do not believe in God.  Is Sonya correct?  Has Hitler and Satan won, by turning Jews from God?

Oy vey!

P.S.  While reading this to my hubby my nine year old grandson who is quite intelligent if I do say so myself responded, "Nonnie why would the Jews blame God for what Hitler did, God did not tell Hitler or his soldiers to do those bad things."  I replied,  "Zak, they feel God should have prevented it or saved them from the Holocaust."  Zak, "But Nonnie, God is sad when bad people do bad things.  He doesn't want people to kill others."  I said, "Yep Zak, God gave man free will, choices to make and the Commandments to live by."  Zak, "But Nonnie, there will always be bad people, we shouldn't stop believing in God because of bad people." Out of the mouth of babes!

[ANNIE]

Ginny, there are many people out there, who have always been wet blankets even as younger adults. I had a SIL who was the wet blanket in her family. She could take anyone down with her meanness. Some people are just born that way or they have learned it from one the parents. Judgemental about everything! Drove me crazy!

[bellamarie]

Barb, we were posting at the same time.  I do love your way of thinking and am so happy to have you here with us.

[hongfan]

Nǐ jīntiān hǎo ma?  (hard to pronounce with my French accent!)

- haha, I didn't hear French accent, but Northern China accent and better than mine! I am from Shanghai, in the southern part of China, which means automatically my pronunciation has a comic effect to the ears of my friends from northern parts - Mandarin was originally a Beijing dialect before it was standardized as the national spoken language.

By the way, I found a Google Book link for the book: https://books.google.com/books?id=H1HUJjs8yHkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=number+our+days&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG76LZ1OPUAhVs4oMKHdyEAjgQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=number%20our%20days&f=false

This seems to allow you to read up to Page 129 which will give you the first three chapters and a few pages for Chapter 4. Once you finish the Page 129 and your book still hasn't got to you. Try to use some word on the last page and do a search in Google, it may give you another 100 pages to read, I guess (but you may need to clear up browser's history and close the browser, and then reopen it again before doing the search).

Try it and hopefully it will work.

[so P bubble]

Thanks a lot.  That is certainly a big help.

[hongfan]

1. Here is the definition of "agnostic":

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

So it is different for someone being agnostic vs. someone atheistic ("disbelieving or lackinɡ belief in the existence of God"), I think we shall not mix the definitions here for the discussion, those are two different positions, and to me atheistic and theistic are closer to each other than to agnostic because both of them are buying into a believing system, no matter it is the believing of existence or nonexistence of God.

I think agnostic is a very natural position - to me, it is as simple as, when you ask a 3 years old child "do you know if Einstein's Relativity Theory works?", he looks at you and says "no, I don't know." It is just beyond his cognitive capacity and knowledge necessary to give a answer, whether it is a No or it is a Yes. Same logic here regarding agnosticism, if you don't feel you have what you think needed for deriving a definite answer, then you just keep a neutral position. That is to me, what is being agnostic is about.

2. Regarding negativity, I think there is likely a cultural difference playing here, as Bubble has pointed out. I still remember those times when I was in China and watching Olympic games, when we heard American athletes who just lost the game but during the interview they were saying "... we have the confidence to beat them next time, we are good at this and we are good at that, and we are confident that ....."  We looked at each other thinking wow those Americans are really arrogant! Now I am here in the States for 20+ years, I call this "positive" or "optimistic" attitude and I am doing the same thing too now!

How you see really depends on where you come from - your native culture becomes your reference point. For people from Eastern Asia, our culture tends to favor low key and modesty, so for what is being seen positive here is seen in different lights in that cultural environment. I suspect there is something similar here, we are judging a different culture based on our own cultural preferences.

3. I don't know how we define "who we are" - I mean if you take out language, customs, culture, ideas, outlook, and religion, what else we have left with us as "who we are", all the body parts?

I myself don't know how to define "who we are", it is a vague and elusive term, you seem to see something there but when you reach for it, there is nothing definite there, or there is?

[BarbStAubrey]

I wonder if the 'who we are' is the continuous DNA from generation to generation of marrying only those who are Jewish which I am confused if it is a religion or an identity of a people without a nation, till just recently, in the history of nations. Like being a Greek or a Dane or a Mongolian or a Sioux who all had land they controlled using their culture and laws. The problem I can see with that idea is there is not one common religion among Greeks or Danes or Mongolians although, there is a common set of myths, rituals, spirituality shared by the Sioux.

Yes, I can see there are differences among various cultures as to what we in the U.S. call negativity however, the question  addresses all elders and for many of us we find it difficult to impossible to enjoy life and be grateful for what we have, around folks who judge everything - do other cultures not see the gift of life and therefore, they are not grateful I wonder - because once you dwell on gratitude it is impossible to be negative -

I cannot imagine the people of China not being grateful for all they have achieved over the centuries - I've been watching the Michael Wood series on China on PBS where he starts at the very beginning - forgot now how many millenniums before AD - was it 8 - and shows the advances during one dynasty after the other - the Song (if I am spelling it correctly) was such a magnificent time of achievement in China - talk about paradise on earth. Lots of ups and downs, war and peace over the millenniums but did not pick up a sense of embracing the past horrors but rather moving forward and currently trying to recreate the best of the past. Michael Wood presents such a positive view that shatters some of the current news based in fear of China.   

[bellamarie]

Hongfan,

I think we shall not mix the definitions here for the discussion, those are two different positions, and to me atheistic and theistic are closer to each other than to agnostic because both of them are buying into a believing system, no matter it is the believing of existence or nonexistence of God.

I'm not sure we have mixed the definitions, but I do think Shmuel may have, he states he was agnostic, and did NOT believe in God.  According to the definitions you have provided, it does not seem possible to be both agnostic and atheist, yet indeed that is the impression Shmuel is giving of himself.

I'm coming to the conclusion this chapter is incredibly confusing to anyone hoping to have gotten any form of answer to what is a Jew.  I think we all did a much better job at coming to a better understanding of the title more so than the content.

Once again Barb you and I were posting at the same time, and you took the words right out of my mouth.  My hubby and I were sitting out on the swing on our patio discussing this chapter, and we both were wondering the same as you.

I wonder if the 'who we are' is the continuous DNA from generation to generation of marrying only those who are Jewish which I am confused if it is a religion or an identity of a people without a nation, till just recently, in the history of nations. Like being a Greek or a Dane or a Mongolian or a Sioux who all had land they controlled. The problem I can see with that idea is there is not one common religion among Greeks or Danes or Mongolians although, there is a common set of myths, rituals, spirituality shared by the Sioux.

[Mkaren557]

This is an amazing discussion. I read your comments with awe. I am actually sorry I am on vacation. I miss this.

[ginny]

I agree, Karen, and we miss you, too. It is an AWESOME discussion. I hate to say anything, I really do.  I'm supposed to, though. I've thought of you and your handling of book club discussions so I'm trying to model self after you. That, and the wonderful open mindedness here frees me up to say some things I want to say.

On the kvetching, however, I had a different take (naturally). I am also used to it, as Bubble says and hardly noticed it. Instead of noticing it I noticed the hurt behind some of the words and the ...what seemed to me to be reality.... behind others. Really if the children and relatives did NOT come, surely he could have altered his words. My book stays stubbornly lost, why IS that, is it forcing me to go by memory? Those of you WITH chapter 2 (and thank you SO much hongfan for finding those 3 chapters for Bubble, at last she can see what we're talking about.)  I can't wait to hear her thoughts, I really can't. Thank you Jonathan for listing those 4 categories. I am amazed. When I read them they seemed to have adjunct passages which took up pages. Now that  Bubble has the text she will see. Thank you for posting all those reactions, too, Bellamarie.

Have any of you have been to the Holocaust Museum in  DC? I went with Joan Pearson at one of the Bookfests. The thing seared me for life and I'm not kidding. We went thru it fast, by design but I can't get a lot of it out of my mind. You walk thru the progression of Anti Semitism, Kristallnacht,  you board a real box car, you are carrying with you the name of the person you are to be for a time. And then you come to  one of the upper floors and these strange circular walls about chest high, these are to prohibit children from seeing inside, they have their own route thru the exhibits.  But I looked. And I wish to this day I had not. I will never forget the films and photos I saw there of the medical experiments...I have no words. And then the shoes...the shoes.. I  don't  know how anybody lived thru that without being scarred. I think they are entitled to negativity.


So why am I saying this? I'm saying it because different cultures have different customs and ways of expressing themselves.  That was interesting, hongfan about the athletes and the Chinese way of thinking, too.

But I just watched a film from the BBC on the customs of Georgia (not the state) and the ritual of feasting on the graves of the dead on  Easter Monday, in fact, pouring wine for the deceased to drink on the tomb,  and leaving food behind. This is an old custom, the Romans did it, only this time it's a custom of the Georgian Orthodox Church.   Here's the URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6-4PulgF_

You don't have to travel to Georgia or  Venice Beach or Israel, to see different cultural takes,  you can see it in different parts of our  country. I well remember one of my children when I was not present sitting at the table of some distant relatives  in another state and when they innocently talked of  being proud of this or that,  he piped up  "Mama says pride is a sin."  hahahaa That caused some commotion.

 I don't have the book, this is maddening but I remember thinking Hannah was right in protesting the structure of the thing, if the children did not come why say rise up and honor your elders and there's nobody to rise but one small representation of, was it 2, correct me, people? I didn't read it with the idea of having to repeat it, but I'll find it. I felt embarrassed for them, all the more because the enthusiastic young man (was he a Rabbi too?) , was it Kominski? so wanted to honor them and went to so much trouble. That's one of those things which often backfires.  Always with me and a lot with others. But he did mean well, went to a lot of trouble and many  DID appreciate it, did frame their certificates, and were proud of the achievement.  When he saw no young faces, surely he could have altered his speech. But it appears he did not.

 Do I remember that correctly? Doesn't that have the opposite effect? Didn't it sort of point out that nobody came? So change the speech? So say all it differently?

Would I have said that? No. Would I have thought it? Yes. Out of concern for those so affected, I would not have said anything. I'd have "made nice." But  I would rather be around people who are honest in their opinions, even tho they are startling, or negative,  because with them you know exactly  where you stand, and even more important,  where they stand and then you can be comfortable,  finally,  and have an honest  dialogue and maybe learn something.

Those are the types of people I grew up around, and I do miss it.  WhatEVER you personally grow up around you think is normal; and if you don't think it's normal you probably spend the rest of your life trying to be what you think is normal, to refute what you experienced. You choose joy and optimism instead of negativity and pessimism, but I'm not sure the Center members THINK of their expressions of kvetching AS negative. I'm pretty sure they don't.

I am not sure at my age I could take it now, tho, since I've spent the last 56 years in South Carolina where people are ordinarily courteous to a fault. It's a lovely place to live and raise children, but for years, I'd say a good 20 years,  I was asked "Where y'all from?" because of my accent. So I didn't "fit in" initially either. I've got one now, or at least until I get near somebody from PA or NYC.

I laughed when  Bubble said all the school children envied the Jewish kids for the holidays off from school. I spent my days in old NJ permanently envying the Catholic and the Jewish kids because they were ALWAYS out of school for the most  holidays.

Barbara, I'm very glad to hear you talk about that China series, I'm supposedly taping it and can't wait to see it. At the moment I'm bathing in binge watching again   Father Brown, a lovely refreshing and positive take on the world, I really love the series and I think the actor is absolutely wonderful.

On the agnostics, there seems to me to be a great difference between an Agnostic and an Atheist.

Robert Frost captured the  Stoic philosophy of the Agnostic this way:

Wind goes from farm to farm in wave on wave,
But carries no cry of what is hoped to be.
There may be little or much beyond the grave,
But the strong are saying nothing until they see.

The strong are saying nothing till they see.

The difference is that an Agnostic is open to proof. The Atheist is not. Should the Agnostic "see" he will at that point recognize there is a God. And that is between him and his God. And I think a lot of people of all religious beliefs sometimes question, I thought the unexamined life was not worth living, isn't that the saying?

Barbara made a very good point here: Even our author talks of the disadvantage in arranging a ritual however, she does give him some kudos for doing a good job - but why start with the negative - the characteristics of ritual could easily have been explained as a positive note telling how Kominsky pulled it off.


But she didn't. Maybe she also saw it as sort of a...iffy.... thing. I think what he wanted to do was lovely, all the time and care and attention he paid was lovely, but when he saw a major part of it fail (no families came) then he should have perhaps smoothed that over.  I hate to say it but I sort of agree on that one omission. I think it was a self defense on Hannah's part, and yes I also saw the hurt.

I think this is also a good point, Ann:

When I read what these older Jews were taught as youngsters, then I must remember that the Jews are God's Chosen People according to the Old Testament. And in their different perspectives, they are all trying to live according to the law of Moses given to him by God. But they are also patriotic Americans or at least they want to be. Hmmm, now in their later years, they seem to be wondering if they have been good Jewish parents? Have they been faithful Jews?

Oh yes, that could be it, exactly. If the answer is no, where does a 90 year old go to feel better?  Is there forgiveness of sins in Judaism? (in edit: This seems to indicate there is): http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-jewish-view-of-sin/....  There is no Resurrection because they are still waiting faithfully, is that correct? I hate to ask such ignorant questions, but if I do, I may find out the answer.

[BarbStAubrey]

Just a quicky - trying to get stuff into the MLS - grrrr - but the lack of family showing up reminded me of an ad forgot what the ad was advertising but the elderly father has notices of his death sent to his kids who drop everything to get home only to be met at the door by their Dad who has dinner waiting at a lovely set dining room table and everyone has a cheery old time.

Seems that middle age children are known for not visiting as often as their elderly parents expect is reasonable. Not sure it is a statement of poor parenting just that we, the parents, are always there like a comforter or 'blanky' from childhood and so in the eyes of grown children that comfort can wait. The advantage of elders living nearby... but then for some that means becoming an appendage to the children's household - just not easy and bottom line it is all about our love that feels stifled if there is no immediate outlet - just one more of life's oxymoron's - independence versus intimacy.   

[hongfan]

I was wondering about the definition and Jew or Jewish and searched up a few days ago, and thought this article sheds  some lights on those terms: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/jew-jewish-whats-the-difference/

From this article, it seems "Jew" is more religious oriented, and "Jewish" is more lineage oriented. I am sure this probably not a consensus, but I thought it at least provided some perspectives for me.

Barbara, I think the cultural perspective is fascinating and has made me wonder how significantly it could impact on people's values. The extreme cases I can think of is what I remembered somewhere in Herodotus' Histories , he described two different ethnic groups at his time or maybe earlier times (I wish I can remember which part and quoted the text). For one group, they honored their elders by eating their fleshes when they died, and this was the highest honor - they didn't eat the flesh if that person died from diseases (so eating the flesh might be seen as an honor to share the blessing for health and longevity?) For the other group, they honored their elders by burying them when they died; Herodotus said when people went to ask the "eating" group what would it take for them not to eat their elders but bury them, they were so shocked and they thought that was such a barbarian idea; and when people asked the "burying" group what would it take for them to eat their elders, they couldn't believe what they heard, how could you even suggest such a barbarian idea?

So, who is the barbarian? Which one is better? I guess what Herodotus tried to illustrate here is that definition of values depends on the people in that culture, not outside of the culture.

What Herodotus didn't say and I think is key to our understanding is - what are behind those cultural behaviors. I tend to believe each of them came from some well-founded reasons and if we don't know the reasons, then we just tend to focus on the surface values.

I have been thinking about the similarities and differences between Jewish culture and Chinese culture as we are reading along, of course, it is natural that we use our own culture as a reference point, whether we are aware or not. I saw both cultures shared the value on education and its importance in a meaningful life; and when I heard Bubble said that Jewish people likes to argue and believes different opinions help sharpen thoughts and views. My first reaction is well, that is quite different, Chinese don't like argue. We tend to put a great emphasis on cultivating harmony, we tend to think arguing or challenging others are irrespecutful behaviors; but then I said to myself, wait, Chinese did argue and debate a lot during the time of Confucius and a few hundred years later when China was constantly in wars between kingdoms, and Chinese argued and debated a lot during the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, particularly among the intellectuals, because everyone was feeling so shameful and so painful with the same questions - how could we have ended up to this, what shall we do now? So then I started to think it is probably a circumstantial phenomenon - people in a relatively peaceful environment vs. people in a constantly warring environment, even the same people, they behave differently.

Back to the Center people in the book, I would be curious if their arguments or criticism made them tired or made them invigorated? And now, I am also asking myself if my view on Shmuel shall be reconsidered, maybe he liked to go to the Center for those arguments, maybe that energized him, invigorated him? I don't know, but that made me re-think my views, so I think this is good. I like this.

Regarding China, China has lost itself in a big way in the past 100 years, we blamed our culture (that Confucius - well actually this is the Latinized name, we call him Kongfuzi), we blamed our language (let's change it to Latin alphabet and be "modernized"), and as I am writing, yes, you see, we also became a blaming people too, not only fingering pointing at each other, we even criticized our ancestors - astonishing isn't it? Now, China has imported the western capitalism, people have money, a lot of money, but capitalism is a poison in my view, it corrupts people, degrades people, enslaves people, and it is much worse in China than in US, because in US here religious believes attenuate the side effects of capitalism, in China, we don't have anything - we threw away the old traditional values and replaced it by communism, communism in some way did have the spiritual effects. My parents' generation worked day and night, they believed that the harder they worked, the sooner the communism dream will come true - they will liberate the whole world. Now we in reality threw away the communism (although the government would not say so) and imported the capitalism but not with the western religion, so now there is a big void in people's spiritual life, there is a saying "we are so poor now, all we have is money".

Am I too negative here? You might say so and I would agree with you - but why, I think because I care. When we care about something, we tend to be critical - is that right, eh, I am getting myself confused now, maybe.

But am I really negative on China, I would say I am probably the most positive one among many of my peers, I study ancient Chinese, I read ancient Chinese literature that my generation or my parents' generation no longer read, I appreciate a lot more than most of people in my generation about Chinese culture and what it can offer to the world particularly in helping achieving health and longevity, helping achieving harmony again between human kind and our environment - the philosophy and the way of life of Daoism, which is the root of Chinese culture. I see China will sooner or later have a cultural renaissance, it will happen, I am very hopeful.

And is this similar to the people in the Center? Behind the negative layer, there are shining optimism?

Human being is a complex creature and fascinating!

Well, after posted this, I saw Ginny and Barbara's posts but haven't got chance to read all them, so I want to say this post was written without reading theirs first - a disclaimer?

[Jonathan]

Ginny, congratulations. This is the best ever beginning of a discussion. With or without the book...just hearing what you know from personal experience is so helpful in appreciating the book.

'Mama says pride is a sin.' Haha is right on. With this disputatious bunch at The Center nobody is given a chance to feel proud about anything. Can you imagine anyone there saying: 'Let's agree to disagree'? I don't want to inject a spoiler so early in the discussion, but the author runs out of patience herself after a while.  What a study!

'Is there forgiveness of sins in Judaism?'  Doesn't God say somewhere...'I've put your sins behind me, I've forgotten them...for my own glory.' Can you imagine the magnitude of their sins in that case?

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh my well around here we have all sorts of pride -
We are proud of our service men and women past and present -
We are proud of our kids and if they do something special we are busting with pride -
We are proud of the outcome of any endeavor completed by a group of folks - from planning a money earning event to support someone that needs help to building a neighborhood float for the 4th of July neighborhood parade
We are proud of all the volunteers who planned and carried out the successful annual Book Festival
Our Pit masters are proud of the barbecue they cook up knowing it was their skill choosing the best firewood, seasoning, ability to master the distribution of the right amount of fire.
We take pride in having enough pride in our appearance regardless if we shop Good Will or Neimans -
We are proud of our teachers, our school crossing guards, our school bus drivers
We are proud of our schools and universities
We are proud of our high school and collage football teams
We are proud of our debating teams
We are proud of our kids that play in the Mariachi bands or dance in the Folkloric Ballet.
We are proud of our ability to bring to the table a recipe handed down from our parents, grandparents and as far back as the family recipe goes. 
We are proud of the outcome when we do anything that is beyond the ordinary and we are proud of others who accomplish something out of the ordinary - like now I let my seller know how proud I am of the work she did to get her house tip top cleaned, polished, repaired, trees trimmed and flowers transplanted so that she created a show piece for me to market for her.
And bigger than anything is the pride we have in our State.

This short little minute+ video says it and listening I am reminded that the speaker is saying what we hear from some of the crew at the Jewish Center on the beach in California.

http://frontiertexas.com/texas-pride

[BarbStAubrey]

Johnathan, my youngest grandson spent time in China - he was determined to learn to speak Chinese - the summer after his freshman year he was at, School of International Students, Yunnan University in Kunming, China - then he spent his entire Junior year studying at a University in Beijing followed that summer before his senior year on a work program in Shanghai - He had 5 weeks before his work program started and during this time he and a few of his new friends hiked and climbed in the western part of China and on into Tibet and the few days before he came home he spent in South Korea - lots of adventure and yes, he learned to speak Chinese well enough to converse about average daily topics and to teach a children's class while in Shanghai.

[BarbStAubrey]

Hongfan maybe as an outsider we can be a bit more generous - seems the last century brought difficult and painful changes to more than China - Europe and Russia and many African nations crawled through the mud during the twentieth century - to me it is a waste of energy to blame - it seems to me it was all about change and change is never smooth -

Change to me is like a river speeding along after the melt and then the force of the running river causes a drop - does not have to be a great drop creating a water falls - but just the water falling, when it hits the new level it is a churning cauldron of activity - those who go over the falls in a rubber boat risk being dumped or falling out but worse is going over the falls in a wooden boat - the wood splinters and some sections churn over and over hitting bottom many times, while some boards splinter off and shoot across the water, while other bits break up further and get caught on the shore or in a still pool surrounded by rocks and still other larger broken pieces continue to float un-maned down stream at the mercy of the force of the river till someone snatches it and uses it for their purpose. Seems to me China and much of Europe were in wooden boats while Russia was in a rubber boat. I think we in the US have hit a water falls - we shall see if we are in a rubber boat or a wooden boat but whatever, folks who were swiftly floating on a melt-swollen river will be taking the drop, falling and trying to protect themselves as they are dumped.

I see it as part of the movement of life and China sure has had its changes recorded in its history - we are an infant country in comparison but we have already had some drops as new ideas took hold.

And sorry, no use trying to tell me I should accept being judgmental because it is a cultural habit - I do not like it - I see no benefit - and if folks want to boggle themselves with the weight of the past then let them do so - I know I am not always successful and can get down in the mouth as anyone but, I have been given the gift of life and I cannot imagine using any gift in a manner that does not honor the gift... everyone has something they are burdened with and everyone does the best they can - as we do not measure the value of a life, one more than the other, than we really cannot go around measuring the value of one piece of hell over another - as I recall the purpose of the holocaust museum was the effort to remind people that we can never allow this to happen again - and to each person, if we cannot fix the cause of the damage than to carry it around reminds me of the movie The Mission when Robert De Niro carries his past as penance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnXN-mRFoPI

[so P bubble]

hongfan -  "How you see really depends on where you come from - your native culture becomes your reference point."
Exactly.  When Americans see themselves as "positive" or "optimistic", other cultures would say they are immature  or unrealisticly childish.  I have heard that more than once., as I have heard that they are pround of their $ and think they can buy the world with it... We all know that is such a simplistic view.
So I would say that 'who we are' is really that we are the reflection of our culture.

Now, could cultural traits be ingrained in the DNA?  I wish I knew!
They did found  a native tribe in South Africa who had always claimed they were part of a lost Jewish tribe, who kept kosher food, respected the Shabbat, etc. , they did find to their vast surprise that the DNA of many members matched the Cohen DNA.   

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8550614.stm

"Chinese Jews can trace their lineage back to the 12th Century"
I wonder how culture makes a difference for them...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jonathan-romain/chinese-jews-community-reemerging_b_3155003.html

All this musing generated from hongfan's post!

Ginny, the text I read is missing here and there 2/3 pages that apparently would make it more comprehensible. Grrrrrrrr!!!

I think that kvetching is  enjoyable for Shmuel and gives him vitality even if he does not say so.
Some people would feel totally depressed and inadequate if they could not do that.   it is the characteristic of many of our elderly in retiring homes.  It is not always accepted gracefully by their visitors and that is why many of the children prefer not to visit.

I think that the reason the speech at the Sium was not changed is probably because it has been prepared and the speaker could not possibly change the written text at the last minute.  Since he wanted it to be memorable, he must have spend quite some time to polish it.  Some people are incapable of talking to an audience without notes.

Ginny - during the wars  in Congo, fighters were tearing open the chest of the most valiant enemy  and eating the still warm heart.  They believed that this would add to their bravery and help them survive.  Culture again, beliefs.

Jonathan, it is said that the Jewish people are the proudest on earth, they will not bend to any power on the planet, only to the supreme God.   In history many were killed because they would not take their hat in front of the emperor or passing the emperor's statue.

Barb - we cannot ' measure the value of one piece of hell over another', true enough but I believe we HAVE TO remember the past, be it not to fall in the same pit, or to take example of the past achievements and emulate them.  I am sure China will find a way to regain its splendor and hopefully the exceptional values they had for family life and interaction between one another.  The world is getting to materialistic everywhere.

This discussion is giving me so many direction for thinking.  I love it.
P.S. Sorry Barb, that video is not available in Israel

[BarbStAubrey]

You know Bubble I just wonder - I wonder if remembering the past actually keeps us from repeating it - I'm thinking how putting a murderer to death was supposed to keep others, or at least give them pause, to not murder - does not work - now I am wondering - nothing happens over night - there are circumstances that create the situation when our monster side raises its ugly head - no two instances that prompt us to show our inner monster seem to be the same - just ruminating here - so I am wondering, can we ever stop future horrors - I'm seeing things happen in small ways. They creep into our live and we react - that reaction can awaken our monster - the monstrous action we create may not be exactly the same but that is probably by chance - I'm thinking the folks with the gifts and monsters that existed during the past horror are not a repeat - they are different folks with different gifts and different monsters and so they have their own stamp on what happens.

I'm about to think there is no stopping future horrors - change brings uncertainty and for some they fear what they cannot control - there is no controlling uncertainty and so they react with the typical fight/freeze/flight which leaves out logic and thinking - it is all sub-emotion which is where our monster lives alongside our passions.

So that all our instruction for how we 'should' or 'must not' behave must be drilled into us, as behavior is drilled into us as children - we learn one way or another not to walk in the street - we seem to hang onto behavior that is self-protective but when we are in a state of fear that is when we want control and if we do not automatically turn to freeze or flight we are left with fight - fight can be sadistic.  hmm I guess I am trying to understand the monster within - hmm another big question that I bet there has been years of study with only more questions and no answers - come to think of it the questions are at odds if it is inherited traits or environmental traits. Neither here nor there, I am really questioning now if there is any way we can really alter the need for the many to gain control when they are fearful or their surroundings are topsy turvey because of change.

Hahaha OK I just figured it out - that is probably why I am appalled at hearing others be judgemental. When I am surrounded by encouragement and good will I can relax, be inquisitive and adventurous rather than feeling I must protect myself and not cause someone to send arrows my way by judging me and so... that is me wanting control in what I see as a fearful situation when I hear folks being judgemental or as this book is prompting the use of the word kvetching. My protection is to stay away from folks who judge or Kvetch - so I flee and when push comes to shove I fight by denouncing the practice.

Well even with that realization I still prefer to feel safe from the arrows and prefer to be surrounded by people of good will. I'm trying here - I may have to give it up and no longer try to pay attention to y'alls words that suggest I should not only understand but accept - so far cannot do it... I see it as tearing down the atmosphere and being mean - if I change my mind I'll let y'all know... 

[so P bubble]

" I still prefer to feel safe from the arrows and prefer to be surrounded by people of good will."

I also wish that was always possible. Unfortunately I cannot see how to change the pushy (and probably inside insecure) people to come my way.
Remembering will not change actual circumstances, but it might make clearer what the danger is.  You know how many react: oh, it is nothing, a small slight soon forgotten; maybe they will find another victim to amuse them;  maybe if I don't react they will stop.  Well history has shown that is fallacy.
Israel has said: we must remember and be ready to react in accordance, not be meek and hope... who knows what.
Of course that is an extreme global view; in every day life it pays to be somewhat accommodating and friendly exchange can bring a new compatibility.

In daily life I am a quiet peaceful person

[BarbStAubrey]

Confusing isn't it - so many good people damaged by a few and that is they way it seems to be - we would all like to 'fix' the few but the formula has yet to be discovered.