Author Topic: Number Our Days  (Read 48070 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #240 on: June 30, 2017, 07:08:04 AM »
The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us June 15! 


Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 3:

Chapter 3: The Rise and Fall of Kominski

What a chapter! Let's start with these:

1. Which of the stories the Center members tell of their backgrounds  made the biggest impression on you and why?

2. "We got to remember that our Jews is like a bouquet of flowers, they come in all different colors. All of them got nice smells. Together they are making a beautiful bouquet."   

"The time was right for a savior and Kominski relished the role." (page 120).

 "He made it clear from the first that his leadership style would be different from any that had previously  been followed at the Center." (page 122).

"Maybe he will get his business done, but in the meantime he will break everyone's heart." (page 125)

3. Where did Kominski first go wrong, do you think? Could he have altered the course of his downfall?  Was there a straw that broke the camel's back? If so, what was it, in your opinion?

4. Why  did Shmuel not step in to help? Why did he not speak up if he saw that was happening? Surely there was an opportunity to teach there.

5. What's your favorite quote of Chapter 3?

6. Of the author's list of the three mistakes in running the Center, which do you think was the most egregious?  (listed on page 126 and 127). Why?

7. "A person sometimes knows he has a special reason for being born." (Page 130).  What did you think of the miracle Kominski told? Is there a family without a "legend?" What purpose do these tales  serve?

Maybe that's enough to start us out in this chapter which is absolutely full of talking points. If none of these appeal, please feel free to offer your own takes on any of the issues so far.



“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #241 on: June 30, 2017, 07:08:56 AM »
You know how many react: oh, it is nothing, a small slight soon forgotten; maybe they will find another victim to amuse them;  maybe if I don't react they will stop. almost exact words used to minimize wife beating - not only by the wife but by the many who see the problem as another difficult bit of reality that everyone would prefer it went away without their involvement.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #242 on: June 30, 2017, 10:03:28 AM »
so maybe kvetching also relieve the tension?  better than keeping it buttoned up inside?

ANNIE

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #243 on: June 30, 2017, 01:47:07 PM »
Makes one want to just shrink and disappear!
Just live one's own little life.
But that is a sin! Isn't it? 
Seems like one must pay attention to what
is going on around us, even while living our
own little lives. 

Question??
What has happened to idea that the Jews
are still waiting for the Messiah???
Does the saying "Next year in Jerusalem or Israel"?
mean that they expect to welcome the
Messiah then?? 
Needless to say, I am confused!

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #244 on: June 30, 2017, 02:53:53 PM »
Annie - "Next year in Jerusalem " was said even before the creation of the state of Israel.
I am not sure that it relates to the coming of the Messiah.
 It is more a return to the roots, to the patriarch's land that was promised to Jews.
Messiah will come when the time is ripe.

ANNIE

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #245 on: June 30, 2017, 03:30:30 PM »
Bubble, thank you for explaining that to me.❤️  Seems pretty simple to me now.  But this story
Is confusing.  So it's all right for the Center Jews to still believe what they were taught and have used as a guide post throughout their lives.  And it's all right that their children have a more
modern way of looking at their Jewishness? I think this has always happened in every culture all over the world overall the years.  Sure took the Catholic faith a long time to catch up.  Well, maybe not. I guess most things change when they are supposed to. 

For instance, I just learned that Luther's Thesis was not the first time that the change in church laws was presented.  Seems there was another priest who suggested the same thing 300 years earlier and he was burned at the stake.  Well, this is what the History Channel said last week.

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #246 on: June 30, 2017, 03:57:19 PM »
My gosh, Barb, I watched your link!! Not sure I want to see the movie! Good grief! Horrendous !!
How old is the movie?  Never heard of it! And since DeNoro is one of my favorite actors, I know l
would be first in line to see it. Egad!!


"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #247 on: June 30, 2017, 04:16:22 PM »
 So MANY things brought up here! Thank you all for your views. They are not all the same, that makes it more interesting, I think. 

Barbara, you've said, as always, a LOT of meaningful things.  My protection is to stay away from folks who judge or Kvetch - so I flee and when push comes to shove I fight by denouncing the practice. 

  You're entitled to feel exactly as you feel,  and nobody has said otherwise. I personally feel great compassion for Hannah. I am not concerned of her dampening effect on me or those around her, I am sorry she is so lonely and unhappy. I wish I could hug her. She's not alone in 2017, even tho she's probably been dead for 20 years.

 I wish that she had another way to express herself but as we've said, and it's been explained several times (without asking anybody to condone it or accept it),  that the "kvetch" is the way of her fathers and one she learned as a child. Is that right? Is that wrong? We're all entitled to our own judgment on it, and that's what it is, a judgment: positive or negative.

This, I think got right to the heart of it: Seems that middle age children are known for not visiting as often as their elderly parents expect is reasonable. Not sure it is a statement of poor parenting just that we, the parents, are always there like a comforter or 'blanky' from childhood and so in the eyes of grown children that comfort can wait. The advantage of elders living nearby... but then for some that means becoming an appendage to the children's household - just not easy and bottom line it is all about our love that feels stifled if there is no immediate outlet - just one more of life's oxymoron's - independence versus intimacy.


Barbara, could you tell us what the gentleman in the  Texas Pride poem video means by "Sometimes folks in foreign states don't understand Texas pride?"

What "foreign states" is he talking about?

Jonathan: With this disputatious bunch at The Center nobody is given a chance to feel proud about anything. Can you imagine anyone there saying: 'Let's agree to disagree'?   hahahaa, no and I hope not to see it again,  myself anywhere. :) But they do feel proud of a lot of things, Myerhoff says that over and over. I don't want to inject a spoiler so early in the discussion, but the author runs out of patience herself after a while.  What a study!

What an interesting provocative statement, we must look for that. Always the provocateur, our Jonathan! I believe, like Shmuel you enjoy it, it certainly makes people think and adds to a rousing time, and I agree with Hongfan and Bellamarie  that's what Shmuel  got out of going to the Center: making people think.  Hongfan said:

Back to the Center people in the book, I would be curious if their arguments or criticism made them tired or made them invigorated? And now, I am also asking myself if my view on Shmuel shall be reconsidered, maybe he liked to go to the Center for those arguments, maybe that energized him, invigorated him?   If this is so,  he's quite the litmus test for the book and rightfully the main spokesman (so far),  I think.

Bellamarie put a lot of great quotes in here, there's one I want to look at, but first I want to hear from the author herself of the study and if any of you have any thoughts on either of these quotes, I would love to hear them:

Myerhoff: Finally the elders claimed that they had realized their most cherished ideals in life by producing children who were educated, successful, and devoted to them. They realize , they often say, that children must leave their parents, they they left their own families to emigrate when it was necessary and so they understand the distance between them and their own progeny is inevitable. But the truth is that they counted family ties as the only completely trustworthy relationships, and it was excruciating to them to be so cut off from kinship bonds...(page 106) Page 107 follows:

Their self-esteem rested on the definition of themselves as autonomous individuals, and as providers for the needy. To have stated that they themselves were needy was unthinkable, but in ritual the "unthinkable' may be presented without being consciously "thought."


So now let's let Hannah speak, pages 88 and 89:  And please tell me where are all these children who are supposed to be here to see us...This madman wanted me to tell him the names of my daughters so he could send them invitations to this siyum. He sent off invitations to everyone's children who would give him names. I told him that my daughters got more important  things to do with their time than come to watch Mama makes herself look stupid. What  do you think he answered? He says then to me, "Hannah, if you wouldn't give me your daughter's names, I wouldn't let you come. One daughter is a doctor, the other is a teacher. These are busy people For this business here I should ask them to give up an afternoon?



Translation: My children would not come even if invited. . It's stupid anyway. My daughter the doctor, my daughter the teacher, I am so proud of my children, and how I've raised them, I have succeeded,  but to this they would not come. I would not give him the names and embarrass myself when my important children did not come. It's stupid anyway. Faugh. I'm beyond this, it hurts too much to bear, to be exposed when I am clinging to what I feel I  have achieved.

So when I get up I'm going to take the righteous stance here and talk about the Olympics massacre, and that "in America we mustn't forget ourselves. We mustn't forget we are Jews because sooner or later someone will come along and remind us. We must hold on to our land, Eretz Yisroel, no matter who tries to drive us in tho the sea. " Nobody can argue with that, and everybody has to respect  it.

I think perhaps in his eagerness and kindness  Kominski was a tad less understanding of the people he most wanted to help, and that there were other ways to have arranged this, but that's hindsight.  He meant well. And you are right, Bubble, that some people can't divert from a written speech they have prepared, that does explain it, but I wonder what he thought afterwards. 

What do you think of this statement from the author, "But that's what culture is, a set of agreements on how to see the world, how to live and why." (page 120). Do you agree with that statement?

Has anybody figured out what this quote means?  "If you study history, you lose an eye. If you don't study history you lose two eyes." (Nathan page 80)






ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #248 on: June 30, 2017, 05:49:49 PM »
And since we're coming up on the 4th of July and many patriotic celebrations, I'll answer one of my own questions. I like Sonya the best, so far, I think. On page 106 she says:

Life in America-- What can I tell you? Of course it isn't what it was in the Old Country. There we loved our parents. Our grandparents lived with us. Now, look at how we live here.

---On the other hand, I have to say this is a wonderful country . My daughter is a teacher, my son is an engineer. In Glowno my mother couldn't keep shoes on our feet. You know what that means to a parent? So, if here I'm nobody, I wouldn't complain. Nobody needs an old lady like me. It's enough to know I did all I could, and maybe I didn't do so bad.


I looked up Glowno and it's a small town in Poland.

Speaking of the holiday, I peeked ahead at the next chapter and it's VERY interesting, VERY short and allows many of the Center folks to speak for themselves, let's aim at that for Wednesday, if you like?

ANNIE

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #249 on: June 30, 2017, 06:20:25 PM »
Ginny, your comments about Sonja and reading her comments about succceding in America, made me remember a question that been going through my head ever since I started reading this book!  And here it is!!!! What did these people see happening in their countries that convinced them to leave and come to America?
I think I just read in someone's link that the Russian Jews went to Persia/Iran. Bubble, was that your link?
Gadzooks!!! First I read a post, then I click on a link and am told if I want to know more, just click
on another link!  After reading 3 or 4 links, I forget why I clicked on the first link!🤓🤓🤓
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #250 on: June 30, 2017, 06:33:10 PM »
Wednesday is the big stuff moving day for me! So I will look in on Thursday or Friday to see what you all thought of the short chapter!  I will read it tonight!!!! I am working at my new place (the Home) tomorrow in the daytime and going out for dinner with about 20 of my old neighbors here in my old home.  This is getting hard! 😢
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #251 on: June 30, 2017, 07:16:21 PM »
Oh oh Annie - hard but you are doing it - what a support system with 20 neighbors sending you off - hugs.

Good show Ginny - great - you really did pull it all together - wonderful - and yes I agree with you about quoting Sonya.

Haha the foreign state is any state in this country or nation beyond - left over from when Texas was an independent nation and that is still the knee jerk thinking that drives this state - everyone sees themselves as a step apart and since so many like to make in fun of Texan's it only adds to the specialness.

Annie I am trying to remember when that movie was released - probably the info is online - seems to me it was in the 1990s because it was a time when here at least it seemed every other person in this city was attending an Al-anon or an Adult Children of Alcoholic or AA or Debtor's anonymous or some kind of weekly, or for some daily meetings, to get their wounded life back together and when that movie came out that scene was discussed and discussed as a visible example of what we were doing to ourselves. Just as he dropped that sack only when he believed he could accept himself and be worthy of God's love was he free - if I remember correctly I believe he was a slave trader.

There are other clips of the movie on youtube - the bit where Jeremy Irons first encounters the natives and draws them from the jungle where they were watching for days by playing on his carefully wrapped flute - interesting movie since it also shows the politics within the church that the Jesuits were skirting - the official representatives that were not Jesuit of course were siding with the wealthy and keeping the poor subservient in order to control the wealth. Interesting and well done movie with a dramatic ending where with all they did to bring a better life to the Indians - they rebel and De Niro's character is tied to a cross that is sent down the rapids to plunge down a probably 300 or more foot falls - that scene is the still shot often used as the logo for the movie. Back to the idea that with all our good work does not mean we or the changes we bring will be accepted.

That is probably what we are seeing here in this story - Kominsky brings positive changes that we see how some cannot 'do' a smooth acceptance - the change does not bring about for them a better life experience - I like that as Ginny highlighted from Bellamarie's post "Their self-esteem rested on the definition of themselves as autonomous individuals, and as providers for the needy. To have stated that they themselves were needy was unthinkable, but in ritual the "unthinkable' may be presented without being consciously "thought." - Kominsky was busting their bubble and presenting reality in a way that took from them their life's achievement.

Seems to me that is the story of most social change - those who are affected by what is considered a better lifestyle is often, by the sacrifice of the heart of what they built their life around. We can see that today with automation taking on more and more of the physical jobs that when these physical jobs were developed into assembly line production this new way of making things took the heart out of the craftsmen and the system of apprenticeship and journeymen. With change there is always some aspect of something or someone that is discarded.

In the movie The Mission those who experienced change that meant downplaying the shaman, discarded those who brought the change. Yep. literally threw the baby out by tossing it all down river. So who won - yep those in high places who were now free to exploit the land and its people.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #252 on: June 30, 2017, 08:30:23 PM »
Annie I hope you enjoy your new place.  It's always exciting to begin new changes and relationships, although it can also be a little apprehensive as well, but I sense you'll do just great!

I am so ready to be done with this chapter.  I will try to find time to begin reading the next chapter tomorrow after my two little grandkids Zak & Zoey go home from their sleep over.  I am not at all in the position of Shmuel or any of the other elders who do not have the enjoyment of their grown kids and grandkids close by.  My sons may live a half hour away, but that does not discourage any of us from spending lots of time together.  We all truly enjoy each others company, we go to church together, have cook outs, sleepovers, do all the holidays and birthdays together and throw in, just for the fun of it days.  Just went to my first Farmer's Market in Perrrysburg with my three granddaughters (21, 14, 12)Thursday, I actually let my twenty-one year old granddaughter drive me.  The four of us got caught in a huge cloud burst of rain and we ran to a shop and laughed all the way there.  Life is good, and I hope as I age it will only get even better.  All my grandkids tell me I don't look or act old enough to be their grandma.....oh I think I will be leaving them a large inheritance, God bless them all!  lololol    ;) :D ;D
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Jonathan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #253 on: June 30, 2017, 10:14:09 PM »
How can you not help liking Sonya. 'At eighty-five she moved with a consciousness of her lasting beauty.' p89 She's chosen as valedictorian. In her speech she lauded and thanked America:

'...the land of freedom and democracy, which gave to all of us a new life...'

She and her co-religionists left the ghetto behind in Europe. In America they could live and believe as they liked. In the process they gave Judaism a new look, and even, it seems to me, ceased to look for the Messiah to come and make a new life for them. And in helping themselves they've helped all of us. I have a great Jewish doctor. Some here would like him. He's convinced that a successful old age is a matter of mood management. He's very modest. 'Now remember' he told me when we first met, 'I'm not God.' So, ok already' I told him. 'God is guiding you.' Now, after twenty-five years, he's amazed at my good health. Yes, I reply, thanks be to God.

Jonathan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #254 on: June 30, 2017, 10:19:33 PM »
Do they celebrate The Fourth in Texas. Have a great holiday. Here, in Canada, its our 150th tomorrow, and we're awfully proud. See y'all on Wednesday.

ANNIE

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #255 on: June 30, 2017, 10:23:40 PM »
Oh, Bella, I know you will like Perrysburg.  Back in the olden days, when we part of SN, our Ohio group of book lovers, got together up in Perrysburg, for lunch once a year.  Several of our members from Toledo decided that we should spend the weekend up there and they gave us quite a great tour of Toledo and Perrysberg.  Ella Gibbons and I always went.
My husband was born there and we used to take his mom up to see her mom once in awhile. Nice memories. He was born on Cone St. And Grandma still lived in the house where he was born.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #256 on: June 30, 2017, 10:52:10 PM »
 ;) Yes, Jonathan at least in the bigger cities we celebrate the Fourth however, Texas Independence Day is not as big as a few years ago - and yes, UT still fires up the canon that can be barely heard because of the traffic in this now large town but March 2 is our big day - followed on May 5 by Cinco De Mayo and Juneteenth that has spread all over the nation. We are a celebrating lot with rodeos and parades and street stands and flags and runners and bike riders you name it.

https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/us/texas-independence-day

http://do512.com/cincodemayo

http://www.juneteenthcentraltexas.com/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #257 on: June 30, 2017, 11:03:09 PM »
Happy Canada Day and thanks for tipping us off.

https://www.ottawatourism.ca/ottawa-insider/canada-day/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #258 on: July 01, 2017, 10:54:47 AM »
Happy 150th Birthday Canada!!


https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19702281_1408694035884154_2456002878280270366_n.jpg?oh=350b970f04dfcc789af5810b160bd411&oe=5A0974AB

Annie, I have already fallen in love with Perrysburg.  How exciting your hubby was born there.  I found a very neat little locally owned bookstore that just celebrated it's first year called Gaththering Volumes.  I met the owner who is from Chicago and loved her. Right next door to the bookstore is a locally owned ice cream shop that takes you back into the 50's, it's name is Hershey's, and it has every kind of delectable sweet you can imagine!  The thing I love most about this sweet, quaint little town is how they remain local.  They do have Levi's Commons near the expressway, with all the upscale shopping stores, but for the most part it is still run by locals, and just over the bridge, minutes away is wonderful Maumee!!!  I can see my hubby and I living in either of these little towns in the next few years.  We have gone to watch the fireworks at a friend's house in Maumee for the past ten years or so.  They shoot them off over the bridge/Maumee river and we are so close the ashes fall on us.  We plan to watch them at our son's house this July 3rd since they are hosting a huge 4th of July cook-out/housewarming/40th Birthday Party for my son. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #259 on: July 01, 2017, 03:13:22 PM »
Stumbled on this today and thought it was a good analogy for a few of our elders at the Center... I thought it was doubly fitting since we usually associate Owls with learning and reading.

Owl

Thinking of you is like twisting my head around like an owl.
Hoping the see the past behind me.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #260 on: July 02, 2017, 09:27:31 AM »
Perrysburg looks very nice, doesn't it? Kind of the epitome of small town America, it could be anywhere, including about 30 miles up the road. I believe you've decided to move, Bellamarie. :)

And Wednesday our Ann will make the big move, herself, and we'll all  be looking forward once things settle down to hearing what it's like.

Ann asked, "What did these people see happening in their countries that convinced them to leave and come to America?" 

Last night on NBC they ran this feature whose film and photos I think make it pretty clear: http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/death-train-will-germany-finally-pay-holocaust-survivors-iasi-n778336

Those were interesting thoughts on how religious ideas change, Ann. I missed that on the History Channel. I'll see if I can get it in reruns.

I love that giant Maple Leaf, created by thousands of people  in Winnipeg,  Jonathan. Happy Birthday to Canada, a lovely unique place with wonderful people. Loved the story of the Jewish doctor also by Sonya, how can you help liking Sonya?

Thank you,  Barbara,  for that explanation of the words "foreign states." Cute owl poem, and meaningful.

USA Today online has a wonderful photo montage of the Statue of LIberty, in many stuning angles, https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/destinations/2017/06/30/statue-liberty/444894001/  There are 46 of them, it's hard to pick one, which one is your favorite?   I love this one: 

So we'll pause now and reconvene with Chapter 3 (how can we be half way through the book already?) on Wednesday.

Happy Brthday, America !

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #261 on: July 02, 2017, 01:43:49 PM »
Yes, I remember the summer before I started first grade - relatives of my Grandmother came - we were all crowded in my mother's kitchen, the lady was a younger cousin to my Grandmother, and had her daughter who was probably about 11. Here I was excited about going to school and she warned me never to speak up and never ever ask the teacher a question. Her father, the cousin's husband, was a teacher and one day never came home - one man in the village had the courage to tell her the Nazi's took him - she tried to find him but got no information and she was warned by the one man that if she continued they would also take her away - I was too young to get the details about how they got here - My grandmother's mother was from Bavaria and so I am assuming this is where they lived -

Soon after we had our own shock so there was no more talk of anything German - my Grandmother on Friday always went to the German club where they had a tea dance and played bunco. She often stopped by our house at about 5: on her way home and always dressed in one of two dresses that she kept for going out. She came in after her afternoon about a week before school started all upset - that would be 1939 - she was ONLY in her German which is what she did when she was agitated - I'm hearing the uproar in the kitchen  - something about heiling Hitler - I had not idea who or what Hitler was or what Heil meant but whatever my grandmother was very very upset - My father came home early, around 6: and saw my grandmother so upset so he suggests we go to the Beer Garten, which was a regular Sunday evening gathering of my Aunt, Uncle, cousins, Grandma etc. and my Uncle always brought his violin attempting to play with the band and would be chased off the stage but then, he would play during their brake - we kids ran around and beer was in large barrels that was served in cold glass pitchers - yes, a good time that my Dad thought would help cheer my Grandmother who had already talked out enough that she was not going back which was a big loss for her since it was where she met all her friends.

Off we go walking to the Beer Garten which was a good mile away - the tall grass was already bleached and there was a part of the walk that was on new sidewalk rather than dirt sidewalk - walked past the shops and churches and past the empty fields to if it was measured out, about a block away from the Beer Garten, which had a brick building in front where you could have a sit down dinner with the arbor in back for the band and the floor for dancing and all the picnic tables in rows - At this point we abruptly stopped, silent, we stare - on the side wall of the building are painted in white all these large swastikas, some with dribbles of paint coming down and short German curse words and the front glass windows were smashed, huge jagged holes.

In silence we turned as if puppets - my father swings my sister back up on his shoulders - she had just turned 4 - and we walked home in dead silence - my father ahead, me in the middle and my mother and grandmother together behind - just before we reach the churches I hear my Mother say to Grandma - "no more German mom - no more"

We still, like the majority of Americans, had no clue about the camps except for the propaganda film seen on news reels in the movie - even with this relative never heard from again we did not know till we were all dumbfounded late in the war when the soldiers happened onto the camps - during the war we lost all contact with the German part of our family - we have no idea what happened - we were not Jewish but it appears that educated people in Germany were at risk so who knows - as to no more German - anytime Grandma called on the phone all excited about something Mom would have to raise her voice to get her to speak in English.

Not a story of horror but that time in history was when many lost their humanity - it seem incomprehensible to take in...

I have worked with a several, helping them find their home, who lost their father or both parents in the Cultural Revolution and I worked with one older couple where the wife was a child in Indonesia during WWII and when the Japanese came her mother grabbed her and they lived deep in the forest eating whatever wild they could find for years and another whose mother was made a comfort women and her mother convinced a US soldier to marry her 14 year old daughter and take her to America because she too was made pregnant and had a boy that years later they found - they brought the boy, then a teenager to America. He dotted on his mother. When I helped them, the vet and the women he saved, sell their house she was in her late 50s and he 70 with Cancer. He died before the house was sold. In this house they had built themselves the fireplace was huge and backed up to a closet - in the closet was a secret door into the brick fireplace with space for one person that was her hidy hole if anyone ever came for her again. In her new home she gardens and works at Walmart her son has married and lives nearby.

Need to stop this - I'm sure we all have our stories but bringing up that time seems to unwrap the cotton wool of our memory. Onward...

   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #262 on: July 02, 2017, 06:31:47 PM »
Happy July 4th to everyone! Happy 7/1 to you, Jonathan! And double happy for me for the 20th anniversary for the Hong Kong's return to China!

We have so many celebrations this weekend in Boston for all the three, and that is why I haven't got chance to come up here until now.

Barbara,
- Saw the pictures of your grandson in Yunnan, Beijing, and is that picture with a lot of high buildings taken in Shanghai? It's wonderful that your grandson is learning Mandarin and has enjoyed his adventures. Does he find it difficult to learn Mandarin? I guess there must be a lot of hard working involved. I hope him all the best in his learning of Chinese and his future career in international affairs. If anything I can be of help, let me know.

Bubble,
- I heard some of the Chinese Jews have moved back to Israel, it's wonderful to see them finally got back to their ancestors' land and to their cultural roots!

Ginny, "If you study history, you lose an eye. If you don't study history you lose two eyes." (Nathan page 80)
- I don't know what Nathan meant and I searched online but couldn't find any explanation. My own take on this is is the following: there is a game I forgot the name that we used to play - you have a group of people arranged in a line, the first person says a sentence into the ear of the second person, and the second person turns around to murmur the sentence to the third person, and so on, once the word reaches to the last person, you ask the last person to speak out what her/she has heard, and then ask the first person to speak out what she/he has originally said, and depending on how many persons in the chain, 9 out of 10 times, you get a good laugh because the two versions could be very different. Has anyone of you played this game?

To me, what the first person said is what happened, and the last one heard is what she/he got to know by studying history. Let's say one generation is about 30 years, so if we are talking about what happened 300 years ago, then put in 10 people in between, if we are talking about what happened 3000 years ago, put 100 people in there, and what you got is the history handed down generations after generations - because it only captures something in the proximity of what happened (hopefully), you only loose one eye (or in other words, you get to know the half), but if you don't hear anything (don't study history), you don't know anything, and thus loose two eyes.

Don't know if that makes any sense, but that is the best I can come up with.

Have to run again, more celebrations to go - and yes, I agree with all of you, that this country is wonderful, what is the BEST part is the people here - my parents and in-laws first visited us in the late 90's, they brought with them their impressions of America from Hollywood movies and media coverages, and they were anxious when they came. But they soon found to their pleasant surprise that all the people met on the street, in the mall, and around the neighborhood were so nice to them - they went back to China with a very different impression about America and they couldn't help to tell all of their friends of their new discovery!

Have fun and enjoy the fireworks!

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #263 on: July 02, 2017, 11:53:53 PM »
The other day I was watching a 2008 video clip that Dr. William Widnall spoke to a group of AeroAstro students about heading the team in the '60s that developed Apollo's guidance, navigation, and control system (his wife was Sheila Widnall, MIT Professor and Secretary of Air Force under Bill Clinton). Towards the end, he told the students, "each generation has its own mission, for us, it is to go to the moon, for you, it is to save the earth."

I think (hope) the day we are all awakened to the reality that we all are on the SAME boat and it is sinking now, we may be able to put all our pasts and differences behind and work together to save us and our children for the future, or if we are already beyond the teachable window, then we will all perish sooner as a species on the earth anyway; one way or the other, it will be resolved.

A few years ago I saw the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still (2008 by Keanu Reeves), it is a good movie on that theme. If anyone hasn't seen it, I would recommend it.

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #264 on: July 03, 2017, 10:45:30 AM »
In our earlier discussions about aging and challenges along with it, I wanted to provide some input on technologies that I have seen that will come to be available in the next 5-10 years that may provide new options, but I haven't got time to sit down and pull them together. Since we are in a transition between chapters and I have some time now, so here we go:

1. Auto driving on the highways

Self-driving cars is a buzz word and all the major car manufacturers are working on it. Some of the auto features are already available on Tesla and you can search online and see their latest progress. How safe it is? Based on what I have seen and people in this field I talked to, there is still challenges for auto-driving ANY time under ANY weather, urban environment is a bit challenging with so many pedestrians and a lot of complications, but machine does better, better than human when it drives on highways on in rural areas. Google has tested their self-driving cars on highways for more than 5  years and it is quite safe, particularly for areas not snow or rain often, so, for Boston it might be more challenging because snow changes the road features and make it more difficult for the computer to recognize where it is, but for areas not snow much, it is probably going to see those cars in use earlier. So if you don't like to drive on highways, the car can easily do that for you; on local urban environment, experts have different opinions, but what I have seen that makes sense to me is the semi-auto model, the drive can choose to drive herself/himself, and the car (computer) is monitoring all the time, when it detects dangerous situations, for instance, the driver seems getting sleepy, or the car is going to hit something if does not change its course, the car will then take over the control and make necessary correction.

In short, driving and going around shall be less a challenge down the road.

2. Prevention of Falls

It has been many years that researchers have been looking for ways to detect and prevent falls for seniors, based on what I know, the earlier technology was relying on having the seniors to wear some sensors on their body, but it seems out of favor now because it requires seniors to wear them all the time and this is not practical, and some seniors either forget or don't like to wear them. So these days researchers are focusing on using cameras in the surroundings to capture and do image analysis, one type of research I have seen is to measure the gait quality - it deteriorates before the fall occurs and thus serves as an indicator. For those type of technology, the tricky thing is usually in how much margin you want to set, and maybe different for each individual - if it is too large, it may set alarms too often and eventually the users and caretakers will have alarm fatigue and may ignore it, if it is too small, then it may run the risk of not having sufficient time to take preventative actions, so there has to be some sort of intelligence in the algorithms and with so much resources and capitals are pouring into the areas of artificial intelligence, the baseline technology will become more mature in the next few years and I thus expect the fall detection will increasingly become reliable in the near future.

3. Clothes becomes your smartphone, tablet, radio, blood pressure monitors, and more, etc

A $300+ million investment from public and private sectors is committed to the Advanced Functional Fabrics of America (http://go.affoa.org). It is based on the innovation from Professor Yoel Fink at MIT years ago that his lab by accident found a way to imbed semiconductor material (which all the electronics today are built with) inside tiny optical fibers, which means now you can weave those very tiny fibers into clothes, hats, gloves, and they will function as electronic devices for communications and computing, it will still take some times to make those into mass market, but it has attracted large group of companies from textile industry and other industries, it is one of the innovative manufacturing initiatives under Obama administration, hopefully it will survive through the current administration.

In short, you may not need to hover over a computer and gaze into a screen to post on this book club in the future, there will be more options open for more natural and easier ways to communicate and to monitor the state of your health.

4. More knowledge about what's going inside of us

It has been for quite few years that researchers in the medical industry have tried to get access to real time data inside the body to help monitor patients' inner environment and customize treatment. The methods usually involves a tiny device that goes inside the body (may stay there or circulate out) which gets the desired measurement, the data can be used to regulate medicine dosage, or to monitor critical parameters, etc.

Some examples, a company called Proteus Digital Health has put a tiny radio on a pill, and this radio is sort of "glued" onto the pill. When the pill goes inside the body, the tiny radio is turned on and starts to send out measurement data. It has been approved by FDA, not sure if the business has taken off or not.

Another company called CadioMEMS makes a tiny sensor which can be inserted into somewhere close to the heart and monitor some specific signals that appear about 1hr before heart attack happens, so the patient can call 911 and get to hospital in time to take proper medical treatment before the onset.

Many technologies are and will be applicable to medical applications, but in US the adoption rate has been frustrating to many high tech companies because of the insurance reimbursement barriers, it just takes many years to have something new be approved for insurance coverage, this has been the case for the last 10 years, but I hope this situation will change as the benefits of these new technologies are becoming more proven and the incentive for adopting new technology to save cost is becoming stronger.

In short, we will know more about what is happening inside of us and that will help lead to the optimized and customized treatment ("precision medicine" is the jargon for it).

5. New research discoveries on neural degenerative diseases

I remember some of you mentioned a friend with Parkinson's, there is a paper came out 10 days ago, researchers at Columbia University has found some connections between Parkinson's and autoimmunity - some of the neurons are mistaken by immune systems and thus attacked and damaged (the pattern found in the autoimmune diseases), so now there is a thinking that treatment methods for autoimmune diseases might be able to help treat Parkinson's: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/06/170621132904.htm

Researchers from MIT have found that 40Hz brain wave can help reduce Beta Amyloid accumulation in mice and raises the hope for new treatment for Alzheimer's: http://news.mit.edu/2016/visual-stimulation-treatment-alzheimer-1207

A lot of new research and new technology will come into play in the coming years that may open up new options and change outlook for lifestyles, these are just a few I can think of. With the technology innovation is pacing up, things are happening faster than before - if we think about the time when the the first iPhone appeared (2007) and music streaming was a new concept and what is today, it is only 10 years! 10 years from now, many things go will beyond what we can imagine right now.

Ah, one more thing I should have included but forgot is the Social Robots - as we read in the book that adult children don't have time to visit seniors as often as they want, social robots that become companions which will be smart enough to learn your interests and interact with you properly will become a possibility. There have been several labs working on this for many years, as the computing capability and the artificial intelligence research is gaining a lot of capital infusion, it will be possible that we may have a robot to join our book club in a not too distant future? That will be fun!

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #265 on: July 03, 2017, 04:10:23 PM »
"Living symbolically where everything has added meaning" is the warp of Taoism, one of the earliest spiritual traditions touting living in harmony, to the latest magazines shouting Simplify. The result is as the author suggests "it's all made up. They're all telling themselves stories, but not just any old stories. Some of them are very subtle and complex." And so what is our story - I can see it - our bio is a story - we are simply our story - along the way things happen - how we handled what happened is the conflict in any novel - without conflict there is no story, no need for a protagonist which if it is our story the protagonist is us. Or is it --- have we allowed another the role of protagonist/hero in our own story?

What is our over-arching message - a cry for justice, a cry for security, a cry for peace, or a story of action, a story of adapting to change, a story of adventure, a story of harmony, a story of nurturing, a story of ritual, a story of being one with nature. Does the the story take place on limitless oceans and lands, within a community, within a small unit we call family, within a cell (monk or prisoner) - Where did we affect others and how. When did we affect others, during our life span or after. What did we do to love, to praise, to be hateful, to wound. Who are we... a story!
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #266 on: July 05, 2017, 07:15:03 AM »
Welcome back to Chapter 3! I hope you all had a nice Fourth no matter how you celebrated it.

Lots of great thoughts here, too, thank you, Barbara and hongfan.

On the Day the Earth Stood Still, I really like the first one with Patricia Neal and Michael Rennie, if it can ever be found.

So far as electronics helping us in old age, I'm all for it, robots, self driving cars, anything that helps autonomy. Hongfan, yes, that old game where rumor flies and changes with each person in line, that's certainly the best explanation of the eye thing I've heard.  Or maybe then it should have been you lose an ear. :)

That was interesting, Barbara, on our overarching message, I thought this chapter was full of the most fascinating talking points, I can't wait to hear what you all thought.

So let's begin!

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #267 on: July 05, 2017, 07:46:35 AM »
The Rise and Fall of  Kominski, my goodness. I'm not surprised, were you?  What drama! What angst! Truth is always stranger than fiction.

 Again he disregards the Center people "for their own good," this time with disastrous and surprising results.

So many swirling ideas, but it was wonderful to start the chapter with a laugh:

Page 114: Hannah:  "How she cooks fish, they would all be better off with tapioca."

Sonya:" She didn't make the fish, she just puts it out."

Hannah:  "She puts out the fish, everybody should think she made the whole luncheon."

Mrs. McCarthy lives! As you know I'm again binge watching (again)  the first  5 seasons of Father Brown and those lines would be right at home in the rivalry between Lady Felicia and Mrs. McCarthy.  Priceless and so funny. So dear. Human nature.   Think of Andy Griffith and Aunt Bea and Clara's rivalries. Kerosene cucumbers, anybody?

What a chapter! Let's start with these:

1. Which of the stories the Center members tell of their backgrounds  made the biggest impression on you and why?

2. "We got to remember that our Jews is like a bouquet of flowers, they come in all different colors. All of them got nice smells. Together they are making a beautiful bouquet."   

"The time was right for a savior and Kominski relished the role." (page 120).

 "He made it clear from the first that his leadership style would be different from any that had previously  been followed at the Center." (page 122).

"Maybe he will get his business done, but in the meantime he will break everyone's heart." (page 125)

3. Where did Kominski first go wrong, do you think? Could he have altered the course of his downfall?  Was there a straw that broke the camel's back? If so, what was it, in your opinion?

4. Why did Shmuel not step in to help? Why did he not speak up if he saw that was happening? Surely there was an opportunity to teach there.

5. What's your favorite quote of Chapter 3?

Mine is on page 126: "and there is a good reason why the messiah has not yet come to the Jews. I will tell you. If he would come, we wouldn't notice because  we would be too busy discussing. He couldn't get a word in." (page 126). What a HOOT this chapter is. I love it.

6. Of the author's list of the three mistakes in running the Center, which do you think was the most egregious?  (listed on page 126 and 127). Why?

7. "A person sometimes knows he has a special reason for being born." (Page 130).  What did you think of the miracle Kominski told? Is there a family without a "legend?" What purpose do these tales  serve?

Maybe that's enough to start us out in this chapter which is absolutely full of talking points. I've put these topics for starters in the heading. If they don't appeal, please feel free to offer your own takes on any of the issues in this chapter.

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #268 on: July 05, 2017, 08:25:41 AM »
"The passage about " After the Day of Judgement all the Jews will be found in Heaven.  There they will spend eternity ... arguing with the Lord about the right interpretation"

It is so well observed and said, so typical. I loved it.
This chapter describes so well what happens when people get together, and not necessarily seniors, and they try to surpass one another
 - 1) with their aches and pains and suffering  and the hardness of daily life
 - 2) with the accomplishments of their sons or daughters.
 It is like a ritual, a must for getting acquainted.  After that a normal conversation might ensue.
One gets used to listening only with one ear lol

Kominsky  probably had good intentions but it will never do to disregard the wishes of those he wants to help.  At least talk with them and tell them what he proposes to do, not impose his decisions.  After all they were all adults and sane!  Unfortunately the same can happen with children wanting to manage their old parents life.

I saw it in one instance with a lady I knew.  She had decided to move to an old age home because caring for her house, cleaning, cooking etc was getting to be too much. She was not driving, so that one by one she lost contact with her old friends.  Anyway, she settled happyly  in the home, made new friends, participated in the daily activities, in short she florished.
After two or three years  her daughter and SIL  decided that it would be better for her to be near her family.  They had a spare room in the house that they fixed for her with a comfortable armchair and a big TV.  They took that decision and then just told her:  "Next Sunday we are taking you home."
Since then she is alone in that big house while her family is at work the whole day.  When they return, they are too tired to talk much, just inquire if she had a good day  or if there was any interesting program on TV.  She is awfully lonely but cannot even complain.  Isn't it utterly sad?
And what hurt her most is that they did not even ask her, treating her as a feeble minded.

I think Keminsky made the same mistake.  Old people are very proud of their independence. They should be allowed to live and do as they see fit.  Of course I am not talking about the sufferers of Alzheimer.


And a grateful Thank you to hongfan for scanning the chapter for me.   ;D
 

Jonathan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #269 on: July 05, 2017, 04:27:20 PM »
Oy Vey. My days are numbered. Perhaps too much celebrating. Like with Basha, waking up to a new one involves a lot of stocktaking. Not counting  the search for wisdom. But that I can find in all your posts...like the amazing promise of technology, and the harmony of the Tao. Not that technology is an unmixed blessing. It may well destroy our autonomy. Getting rewired may be like having a Kominsky, with his new ways, running our lives. As Bubble has pointed out.

I'm still pondering the history one eye/two eyes puzzle. It's complicated by the fact that we are dealing with Jewish history and we have to remember what Shmuel said about that:

'The weight of Jewish history, Jewish thought, is too heavy for these people. They are too small to bear the  Covenant.' p50

Like, 'Remember Sinai!'  Jewish history has unique parameters and there is so much of it.

Canada at 150. We're hardly out of our swaddling clothes.

Israel at 150. Within living memory of being evicted from The Garden. Perhaps a preoccupation with history is like indulging in hindsight at the expense of insight.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #270 on: July 06, 2017, 02:30:18 AM »
Loved this - "This Kominsky is a man who is deaf. He comes across a bunch of people with fiddles and drums, jumping around every which way and he thinks they are crazy. He can't hear the music, so he doesn't see they are dancing"

Reminded me of Thoreau - "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away."

Seems Kominsky heard a different drummer than those at the center where the Center's currency did not include efficiency or public attention or the resurrection of traditions caste aside or anything to remind these folks of their penny-counting, retired-parenthood lifestyle.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #271 on: July 06, 2017, 08:36:05 AM »
Bubble:  This is a really good point, it happens today:

I saw it in one instance with a lady I knew.  She had decided to move to an old age home because caring for her house, cleaning, cooking etc was getting to be too much. She was not driving, so that one by one she lost contact with her old friends.  Anyway, she settled happyly  in the home, made new friends, participated in the daily activities, in short she florished.
After two or three years  her daughter and SIL  decided that it would be better for her to be near her family.  They had a spare room in the house that they fixed for her with a comfortable armchair and a big TV.  They took that decision and then just told her:  "Next Sunday we are taking you home."
Since then she is alone in that big house while her family is at work the whole day.  When they return, they are too tired to talk much, just inquire if she had a good day  or if there was any interesting program on TV.  She is awfully lonely but cannot even complain.  Isn't it utterly sad?
And what hurt her most is that they did not even ask her, treating her as a feeble minded


Right.  It's the same thing, and the tragedy is, both sides have their points. Right from the first Kominski, as Barbara said, Seems Kominsky heard a different drummer than those at the center where the Center's currency did not include efficiency or public attention or the resurrection of traditions caste aside or anything to remind these folks of their penny-counting, retired-parenthood lifestyle.

Yes, he heard a different drummer, but his drummer, while probably being right, as in " a pocket of receipts does not make an accounting journal," he's right about that... however his way of imposing his beat seemed to victimize the Center residents whom he hoped to elevate to glory.

What did he overlook? And why?  It really denigrated the actual people it hoped to serve.

For instance, right at first, "Rachel, Sonya, Jacob, sha." What does sha mean? Shut up? "You will all learn to do these things a better way than you are used to. You have practiced all these things by yourself. That's fine, but if you want people not to think you are greenhorns, you got to learn to follow the rules that everyone uses when they have a business meeting. Otherwise it is not legal. That was good enough for the old days, but now we take on bigger things."

Greenhorns? People (what people?) will think you don't fit in, they will point fingers, even tho you think you have assimilated to this country, you're a greenhorn. You don't fit. You stick out. That's a dangerous message to people of their experience.   Even  after all you've managed to do in this country, raising doctors, lawyers,  you are breaking the law. That's the message. Is he right?

That's a pretty strong message for the first meeting. It makes you wonder what qualities a leader really needs to have. He's strong, he's forceful, and he will have his way, but at what cost? What profits a man if he gain the whole world....

I had to laugh, Bubble, at your 2) with the accomplishments of their sons or daughters.

 It is like a ritual, a must for getting acquainted.  After that a normal conversation might ensue.
One gets used to listening only with one ear lol


"My son the doctor," "my son the lawyer," was said so  much it is  a cliche to us but it is very real in some cultures. It speaks of accomplishment.

Jonathan, Oy Vey. My days are numbered. Perhaps too much celebrating. I had to laugh when I saw this, because this chapter has the most Yiddish  expressions in it so far, and some I haven't seen for 50 years or more.  Pilpul, didn't you love that "pilpul in the sky?" (page 126).  Mitzvahs, shiksa, nistar, mefursam, meshuggener (especially meshuggener), I didn't know it had an r on the end of it. Gantzer macher, Yekke, it's a real bath.

What do you all think of the story of Itzak? How could Kominski live with that? How could anybody live with having caused that? How DID he cause it?

How about this statement of the author's, do you agree or disagree?

"It would seem that there is often a direct, inverse relationship between people's actual effective power and their passion for publicly enacting their honor." (page 142). What does that mean?

Do you agree?

Once everybody gets caught up after the holiday,  this is a chapter and a half. Let's take our time with it.


bellamarie

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #272 on: July 06, 2017, 11:39:01 AM »
I finally finished the chapter last night after getting my two grandchildren settled down for the night.  They sure do keep me busy! 

This chapter is packed full o' nuts!  No one seems to realize how important it is to "listen" to each other.  Shmuel again is the level headed, foreseer of what the end results will be with electing Kominsky as the president of the Center.  I'm beginning to see Shmuel as a Godlike image who sits back and watches the people destroy their own selves.  I liked Kominsky's story as a child feeling as though he was saved by Elijah, and was meant to go on to do great things.  Too bad he didn't have the insight and wisdom to help him accomplish those great things for the Center. He did indeed revitalize the Center by bringing in new members and generating new projects and schemes. 

pg.  120  The times were ripe for a savior and Kominsky relished the role.  His Center classes were well-attended.  He took over the Oneg Shabbat ceremony and soon attracted more people.  The Center underwent a transformation.  Anxiety turned to hope and hope to ambition.  Cooperation such as had never before occurred among the members was now the norm.  Everyone worked enthusiastically with Kominsky and for the next few months, he enjoyed great popularity.

No one minded the differences between Kominsky and the Center people because everyone knew he had the Center's interests at heart and was very good at "getting things done."
 

So..... what went wrong?  As soon as Kominsky started asking for order and proper ways to run the Center the people turned on him.  They were not willing to make the changes necessary to run an efficient Center.   To them they felt Kominsky was simply a business man, and was not able to understand the personal side, which was important to all the people there. 

pg.  125  (Shmuel)  "This on comes in here and understands nothing,"  he said referring to Kominsky.  "Maybe he will get his business done, but in the meantime he will break everyone's heart."  "You can count on what I am telling you.  He comes in here like a meshiach, and there is a good reason why the meshiach has not yet come to the Jews.  I will tell you.  If he would come we wouldn't notice becauses we would be too busy discussing.  He wouldn't get a word in.  We have a midrash on this.  After the Day of Judgement, all the Jews will be found in Heaven.  There they spend eternity studying Torah together, at last arguing with the Lord Himself about the right interpretation of His Law.  This is the Jew's idea of Paradise.  Do we have angels peacefully riding on clouds with their harps playing, like the Gentiles?  No, we have a big debate with God, a pilpul in the sky.  People who fight with God won't put up with a dwarf who thinks he is a giant.  So you should plan on it, that this Kominsky meshiach will not keep these people in his pocket for very long."

Again, Shmuel's insight was right on.  This actually made me laugh out loud when I read it because his comparison to the Jews in Heaven vs the Gentile's was humorous, even though I am sure he was being serious. 

After I was finished reading this chapter I thought a better title for it would have been,  "The Rise and Fall of Jerusalem"  I personally am still struggling with how the Jews refuse to follow their religious customs and resisted Kominsky wanting them to turn back to practicing them.  Them turning from believing in God, and also turning from their religious practices seem so counter productive to me.  We know time and time again in the Bible what happens to tribes, people, leaders who go against God.  I'm supposing my best assessment for their choices is that they feel they have already seen and lost so much, what have they got to lose in America, to no longer want or need God or religion.   

Jonathan, I felt like you, numbered days after these past few days of celebrating the 4th of July.  I can't wait for my life to go back to being just a little bit boring. 

Bubble,  Reading your post about the friend going to the elderly home, finding friends and interests, then being taken out to just sit all day by herself breaks my heart.  Why couldn't she speak up for herself?  Family does not always know what is best for their loved ones.  Maybe like Kominsky they felt from a business/financial sense it would be better to have her home with them, but did they consider how she had flourished in her new life with having interactions with other people?  I know my family/friend Marilyn is loving having all her friends at the elderly center she is at, so much so she doesn't go out as much with the family to events.  She attended our 4th of July family celebration and was very happy, but did not stay long.   

Ginny,
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What do you all think of the story of Itzak? How could Kominski live with that? How could anybody live with having caused that? How DID he cause it?

I'm not so sure Kominsky "caused" Itza's stroke.  I never like placing blame on anyone, due to a person's health condition.  When you are as old as Itzak, it seems inevitable he would have some health issues, and maybe the excitement and hurt did bring on the stroke, but I just don't think it would be fair to say it was Kominsky's fault, and expect he should have to live with this.  No different than Shmuel dying after his last emotional talk with Myerhoff.  These are elderly people with health issues, in time something will result from them. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #273 on: July 06, 2017, 01:02:18 PM »
bellamarie, they did not ask my friend what she wanted.  She was put in front of a "fait accompli", done and decided for her.
They gave her a surprise and after it was done, she had no choice.  A little like Kominsky accepting Passover "presents" for the people  he represented.


   "  Them turning from believing in God, and also turning from their religious practices seem so counter productive to me. "

I don't think they really stopped believing in God, I believe that they just stopped worshiping in the old ways.  So many of the rules seemed outdated when all around them they saw modern ways of living. 
Many people believe that many rules of kashrut were devised for health reason, because sanitation in the old days was poor.  For example the mixing of milk and meat would make the meat  spoil much faster when there is no refrigeration.
They still saw themselves united as Jews, even if they rode a bus on Shabbath or used electricity and cooked that day.
That certainly is not going against God!

Jonathan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #274 on: July 06, 2017, 02:44:44 PM »
'After the Day of Judgement, all Jews will be found in Heaven.'

Even Kominsky? Not likely. He would definitely try to put an end to the pilpul. He would find a reason. On earth...'...he made a series of grave blunders that constituted overt violations of their norms...' see p127. Soon, it seemed, he could do nothing right. But what was the real problem they had with him? He tried to silence them. For people who like to talk, that was intolerable. Heaven will be all talk!!!

Jonathan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #275 on: July 06, 2017, 03:05:58 PM »
Over the years I made many visits to a certain Old Folks Home, which provided a full range of care. Dad was one of the founders. Walking the hallway once, I stopped to say hello to an elderly lady who was cheerfully cruising along in her chair. I'm a nonagenarian, she told me. I congratulated her. She congratulated me for knowing what she was talking about. No one else did. In the same spirit I wished her well and assured her that the Roman Empire would call on her when she turned into a Centurion. A story making the rounds there had someone calling on a friend  who was in cognitive decline, with serious loss of memory. 'Who am I?' he asked the resident friend?' And he got the short, snappy answer: 'Go to the main desk. They'll tell you.'

hongfan

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #276 on: July 06, 2017, 11:52:09 PM »
Very interesting chapter! And I have a few questions came to my mind:

To give is a mitzva. It comes back to you in Paradise. It is said, "The one who makes the life of a poor man longer by charity, when his time comes to die, he will have his own life lengthened." (Page 129)

I think I understand the goodness about giving, but then later there are multiple places where it seems there is a believe that receiving a charity is not good, something like negative credit, or canceling out good deeds. That I don't understand.

If A receives a charity from B, isn't that A is doing a charity to B too because now A helps B finishes a good deed? Why it is a bad thing, a negative credit? Long time ago I didn't understand why Buddhist monks go around begging for meals, it seemed an important good practice, and years later I sort of think I got it - the monks were creating opportunities for people to do good deeds (but I didn't look into Buddhism books so I don't know if this understanding is right or wrong), but I think it makes sense to me.

Bubble, do you know if this receiving is not good comes from Judaism teaching or people's interpretation?

I found the story on the Lamed-vav is fascinating. "In each generation is coming one of them, and he holds up the world, so great is his justice." Somewhere later it also said because of the Lamed-vav, God justifies the existence of human kind.

I wonder how they "holds up the world" because as it says they themselves may not know they are among the Lamed-vav, they may just live their lives like ordinary persons. And what's the origins of those Lamed-vav, who are they? why are they so great - are they humans too, maybe supermen? It's just fascinating.

On page 139, Kominsky said "To insult a man is like a murder", he quoted in Hebrew. then later "The great Maimonides said, 'When there is no way to give the truth except to insult ten thousand fools, overlook the anger of the foos and save the truth."

I guess in old culture, we have all kinds of quotes that you can employ for your purpose even some times seemingly conflicting with each other? Does this sound conflicting to you? Or shall I read them together as - When there is no way to give the truth other than murder ten thousand people, then just go ahead?


"With God, without God, with kosher, without kosher, a Jew is a Jew" (Basha on page 138)

It sounds to me that a Jew here is defined ultimately by ethnicity or bloodline, not by observing Judaism or not.

Bubble, I am curious what is the "minimum requirement" for being a Judaism follower?

Also, Bubble, I wanted to ask you earlier but forgot, I sort of understand the logic of Zionism - you want to go back to the land of your ancestors, and have an independent nation for all Jewish people, particularly given what have happened in history. But could you help me understand the logic against Zionism? Shmuel is not in favor of Zionism, but I don't know what is the logic against Zionism.

bellamarie

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #277 on: July 07, 2017, 12:31:35 AM »
hongfan,  Thank you for pointing out the numerous contradictory or at the least confusing quotes in this chapter.  I thought my head was spinning when I read them.  It's like "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't."  This Italian/American is sitting here going.... Mama Mia, make up your mind will ya.

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It sounds to me that a Jew here is defined ultimately by ethnicity or bloodline, not by observing Judaism or not.

I'm getting the same understanding.  It's to be born a Jew, that is why a converted Jew in their opinion can never BE a Jew.

Jonathan pointed out this statement, questioning whether Kominsky would in fact be in Heaven.

'After the Day of Judgement, all Jews will be found in Heaven.'

Before that statement it is said, "We have a midrash on this."  So they believe ALL Jews will go to Heaven.  As a Catholic, this is what we refer to as Sin of presumption or some call it assumption.  I am suspecting because they believe the Jews are God's chosen people they will all go to Heaven....yet the Bible teaches, you must believe in God to enter Heaven.  So what happens to those who do not believe in God?  And since we are dealing with tongue twisters or contradictions in this particular chapter, let me ask, how can the Jews who don't believe in God, be arguing with God in Heaven about His Laws?

Oh mio Dio!


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #278 on: July 07, 2017, 02:09:00 AM »
I'm wondering if it is more the author's views that bother me than the life choices and views held by those who are part of the Center...

For instance - "Oppressed peoples whose lives are largely determined by forces beyond their control are often preoccupied with "face" and develop subtle gradations of worth and honor in various terms - precise variations in skin color, minute distinctions of dress, and the like. Economic impotence, social inferiority vis-à-vis other groups, removal from centers of authority and influence are among the conditions leading to a great concern with honor. Socially disdained groups have to find their own standards, generating internal codes for taking each other's measure. Only by doing so can they avoid the devastating consequences of judging themselves in the terms used by people who disdain them, in whose system they will always amount to nothing."

I just shake my head in unbelievable amazement - how does she come up with this stuff - Can't help it but I compare this paragraph to our Two Women that we read last fall - talk about oppressed - they were being left alone with only their personal things and an ax the one woman's grandson threw into a tree and her daughter gave her a skin that could be stripped into straps and laces - left in the middle of the northern wilderness in dead of winter - no food, just there personal belongings - left to die by forces the women had no control to change - the only 'face' they were concerned about was their own living face and to keep it alive. They dug deep and found skills learned as children and strength in their body they forgot they had - the only dress they were concerned about was how they could keep themselves warm.

Sure it was survival but then alone in our elder years that is a concern if we have no family showering us with care - The Two Women lived in the now and did not worry what their people thought - they had some thoughts about each other but they were not judging in a negative way - they depended on each other for survival and for stories, and humor. They were successful, storing up all the food they needed and then some and used the evenings to make things for each other and just things to keep their hands busy.

Yes, their people thought they were an economic drain and yes, it turned out they saved their people but that was not their intent - they had no intent to lord it over their people or to show their people they were wrong but they did want to protect themselves after seeing what their people did to them which they had no control to stop - now they had some control - they had a stockpile of food and handmade warm clothes that the people needed and gradually they allowed some of the people to visit them after they were very generous helping the people after they were first found.

And so in that I can see a similarity - both groups the Two Women and those in the Center keep to themselves as protection however that is where it ends - those in the Center, according to the author, were concerned with the opinion of others (who all these 'others' are is never really explained) and lived to protect themselves from the disdain of others - is that true or is that only the author's interpretation of what she thought was important - those in the Center did seem to have a pride in the accomplishments and titles earned by their children, where I did not pick up among the two women there was a pride they were vicariously owning defined as the strength or hunting skills of the one woman's children. They seemed to live for themselves.

Seems to me even today without adapting to a wilderness for survival, to be a part of a group would be more than creating ritual but would be 'doing' things - for instance sewing and if one sews a group soon sews, sharing their accomplishment just like a big quilting bee with storytelling, chatting, singing, a small group in the corner making music - busy hands have little room for worrying about 'face' and each person is their own authority - even quilting everyone takes turns being a leader based on that part of setting up the quilt and finishing the quilt that they know best. Yes, leadership is knowledge and skill based and all leadership is easy with no ceremony or rules. That was Kominsky's problem, he kept wanting rules so that if he could not control the group the rules would do the controlling.

Yes, I've seen groups of retired men who ran a small company or were CEOs of larger corporations or were the owners of a family company and now the company has passed to their sons - they do seem to feel the need to control their surroundings and often attending the meeting of the philanthropic group they join they make a huge deal over where the chairs are placed and who will set up the chairs but, once the meeting starts they loose all need to put on a pretense  to protect 'face', often an inner 'face' that keeps them in control of who they are based on who they were - during the meeting they are all in, sharing and deciding and having a great old time using their skills in a cooperative fashion knowing the larger community no longer takes them seriously unless, they can acquire considerable resources that allows them to be tolerated. Those in the Center do on a lesser scale in keeping with their work experience philanthropic activities and events to gather more resources for their philanthropic endeavor - but I get the impression they are the ones measuring what they do as inadequate - keeping alive the concept that they are inadequate.   

That seems to be the missing link among those in the Center - it is not a case of wealth - from their meager resources they want to give with no ceremony or acknowledgment - what is missing is they do not seem to realize their own worth and the worth the center offers to the beach community.

It is not about measuring your worth based on other's approval or disdain - To their people the Two Women were worthless and therefore, left to die - Retirement is simply an acceptable and civilized way of saying you no longer have worth to the company - Children who ignore you are saying you have no worth to our current lives so, when they have time they will visit. The children maybe would visit more often if they could control the parents who no longer add worth to their lives - it is easier, 'out of sight out of mind' - Yes, lots of oppression - but to buy into that, is giving power to all the people and systems in their lives that made them feel worthless - where as, some folks dig deep and find their worth and do not worry about saving face but rather use their accumulated knowledge and their lifetime of developed skills to create a life where there is no room for being honored or judged.

Jewish or not, I have seen elders who do just what this group from the Center is doing - sad - there is so much life that can be by just 'doing' 'making' 'creating' - if this group of people could raise children who became doctors and lawyers etc. then they were not stupid - not educated does not mean stupid or worthless - I want to shake them all...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

so P bubble

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Re: Number Our Days
« Reply #279 on: July 07, 2017, 06:15:08 AM »