Number Our Days

[ginny]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

They say that growing old is not for sissies. Are they right? When Anthropologist Dr. Barbara Myerhoff received a grant to study aging she decided to do it on subjects in the USA, and let them speak for themselves.

The result is an "often funny, deeply moving narrative of human dignity and courage."

 "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Join us! 

Questions to Ponder on  Chapter 4

Chapter 6: "Teach us to number our days."

 Chapter 6 is a chapter with a BANG!  There's so  much to try to take in it's almost impossible to select one thing.

1.   What stood out the most for you in this chapter? Why?

2. "A lot of people don't realize how we got to look out for ourself in our old age. We think life is only for the children, then we're alone. We got to face the world in a new way.  This means you find your own kind, so you can be comfortable, otherwise you are lost completely. For some people old age is a terrible ordeal because of the loneliness. But if you manage to find yourself you take a big step. You stop thinking about death. When you have every day something to do, you begin to live all over again." (Rachel) Page 196)


There is a lot of wisdom about old age in this chapter.  Which advice seems the best to you? Do you think Rachel is correct?

3. What did you think of the story of  Jacob Koved? There are many pages devoted to Jacob but not very many conversations with the author  quoted. What is the result of this presentation? The author concludes: "Jacob was not only a symbol of and force for continuity, but also he was to Center members a symbol of the possibilities of aging well. Extreme age had not cost Jacob clarity of mind, determination of purpose, or passion in life. All this he maintained with an air of gentleness and dignity. Tolerant and generous, he aroused no envy; Jacob was a symbolic and literal focus of Center culture and of the people's fragile solidarity and continuity."  (Page 206).

Did you wonder why Jacob is a symbol, almost a superhuman symbol,  and Shmuel isn't? Or is Shmuel? Which one do you feel more drawn to? Why?

4.  What did you think of the statement on page 208: "None of them had ever celebrated their birthdays in this fashion. Indeed, it was customary to commemorate the day of one's birth on the closest Jewish holiday, thus submerging private within religious celebrations."

 Have you ever heard of or experienced this custom? Why then has Jacob left money for celebrations for his birthday for the next 5 years?


Those seem enough to start us out, if you don't like any of them, let's talk about what struck YOU?


What do YOU think?


 

[ginny]

Jonathan, how good to see you back. I am glad you felt well enough to do some errands. Perhaps you were meant (by the flat tire) to stay home a little bit more and rest. I'm glad you feel better.


In reviewing the story of Jacob, it occurred to me driving back from Greenville today that not one time has the author ever had a conversation with him. She is relying on his biographical material, or an interview he gave to his son and granddaughter (good for him) for the information. Therefore the approach to Jacob in a book full of dialogue and quotes is different. He's all in 3rd person, he's a symbol more than  he is a person,  really, and he's sort of canonized, which is fine.  Even his dying speech which cost him so much to say is summarized.  So different from Shmuel's treatment.

 In reading these paragraphs which are not divided much by white space or dialogue, the tone is different. I've been thinking about this detached treatment by the author and have decided, for my part, that Jacob's story was too good not to  use, his death most dramatic and meaningful for the elders, but somehow in the handling it became a little heavy handed in the telling, not in anything about his life.  That's all I can figure out about the shift in tone in the book...he's held at arm's length and I don't know why, you've all had some really good suggestions,  but we're constantly assured of his goodness which I don't doubt for  a  minute. I just  wish he had been able to dialogue with her and fit in a little better.

Any idea about why Jacob's story did not start the book? Have you been wondering about the order the book stories are presented in?

Bellamarie, I have to say that I think a "muffin top" is less an accoutrement of age than it is the result of overeating and lack of exercise at any age,   not necessarily something that has to be accepted. 


 I personally think the Holocaust was as low as humanity can go.

I did not know what a JW was but today's Dear  Abby explained it. I think people of all religious beliefs grieve differently as people, and that's probably what caused some of the things she did which seemed strange to you on the death of her husband. That was a lovely gesture by your husband.

In a free country people are entitled to say what they like about elected officials, whether it suits everybody  or not, and it's always been that way. But I do agree it's a lot less civil than it used to be or  more overt or something. Or maybe we're just  hearing more about it than we used to. I think it's time for our  leadership  to show us  the way to civil discourse by their own behavior so that it can be returned.

But this upsetting bunch of news is  why I don't watch the news, I read the BBC App where I can pick from hundreds of stories in print and in video if I want it, to see which  we probably will never see on our Evening News  because, even tho they have all those hundreds of news stories,  it would take a lot more than 1/2 hour to tell them. They have to choose what they think is most important.  But those little stories  are interesting,  and give, I think (at least the ones I read) some assurance for humanity after all.

It's interesting, actually that all  our talk here of Tibet is what made me think of Joanna Lumley in the first place, she's quite an activist, especially in that area. Another person from the show is 91  year old June Whitfield, isn't she gorgeous? Sharp as a tack too.

Hongfan,  Why do we have so many cancers now? I personally think it's because we're poisoning ourselves and our environment.  Everything we eat is contaminated in one or the other ways with chemicals. Don't get me started on chemicals. hahaha It is REALLY hard to avoid them.


To me, he seems a person that habitually put himself behind others - when his mother had to move to Odessa and could only bring some of the children with her, Jacob left behind and made a living for him and his sister by teaching; when he and Rivke got married, they got married on her term - move to America, and he did; when Rivke's brother became ill and moved to California, he followed with Rivke to move to California; there are many other examples as such, he and Rivke saved pennies to buy tickets for their relatives to come to America; Jacob's all-life work with Union to improve conditions of others; and his generosity to the Center and his people is just one another example of such.

Yes this is a very good point. I just WISH  he had been presented differently. I don't know how that might have been done, but...there it is. It is what it is. I'm glad we have readers who can see the good in this section.

 Good reminder Barbara on the donation of organs and tissue. And this was a good point: ".. continuity is not in our hands," along with the one you made about the silver a bit back.

And that was an interesting post about symbolism and continuity, too.  All this talk of death, have any of you read the book How We Die? It would give perhaps yet another POV.

Hongfan, egregius originally meant standing out of the flock (e=from, grex, gregis=flock), standing out of the common herd, extraordinary. Originally standing out  because of excellence,  then apparently in the 16th century or thereabouts,  said sardonically or with a sneer and it appears that the latter caught on and now means standing out by being awful. It's like the word gay, a perfectly innocuous word which now means something else besides cheerful and happy. Etymololgy is extremely interesting.

Bubble, I SO agree with this: At least she is not ridiculous like some old, overweight women who try to fit into skinny pants and two sizes too small tops.   Act and dress  your age. (On the other hand once you hit the mid 70's, if you're not yourself THEN, when will you be? So,  be yourself). What a lot of conflicting advice we're given.

I am of the "I shall wear purple" theory. It's very freeing to be old, it really is. You get to be exactly who  you are. I love that about it. I would not be 20 again for all the money in the world, but I wish I knew then what  I know now.

I just double checked the heading again to see if there were any points uncovered and there don't appear to be, but those were actually just for starters.

Is there anything else you feel important in this chapter you'd like to talk about?

Here's something in one of the blurbs for the book:  "One of those rare books that leave the reader somehow changed."-- Bel Kaufman.

Of course Bel Kaufman wrote Up the Down Staircase,  but I'm wondering, we have only one chapter and two small explanations to follow, and I'm wondering if YOU feel somehow changed, and if so, in what way?

Perhaps that might be best left for the very last?

I can say at this point that I wish I had read this book years ago. I feel as if I have had a course in Gerontology and I so understand now a lot of things in dealing with older people I did not.  That has changed my approach to a lot of things, and was a useful experience because of it.  I think that's a good change.

[hongfan]

Ginny, thanks for the explanation on the evolution of the meaning of egregius. I guess today it is probably more fitting to go back to the original meaning, because seems to some people, standing out of the common herd, getting attention, ANY kind of attention is REALLY REALLY good, so good so it is worth of pursuing at any cost. 

Related to consciousness in earlier posts, ran into this today and thought it interesting, I didn't know there is a field called parapsychology, or paranormal research.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/54450/13-university-sanctioned-paranormal-research-projects

And this one is really interesting:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/biocentrism/201703/are-plants-aware

We think time is an object, an invisible matrix that ticks away regardless of whether there are any objects or life. Not so, says biocentrism. Time isn’t an object or thing; it’s a biological concept, the way life relates to physical reality. It only exists relative to the observer.

According to biocentrism, time is bio-logical — completely subjective and invariably emerges from a unitary co-relative process. All knowledge amounts to relationships of information, with the observer alone imparting spatiotemporal meaning.  Since time doesn’t actually exist outside of perception, there is no experiential “after death,” even for a plant, except the death of its physical structure in our "now." You can’t say the plant or animal observer comes or goes or dies, since these are merely temporal concepts.

Do you understand what the author is saying? And how that might be related to aging well?

[BarbStAubrey]

Well if nothing else commenting on this book after reading gave me an opportunity to really hone what I believe - yep, I only see chaos and I am OK with that - that, for me, is good to know...

Having seen my good friend through the last 3 weeks of her life, death was normalized - death became just one more aspect of life - having birthed my children in a hospital I never did witness their birth - in the 50s they knocked you out with ether - I wonder if my experience and attitude about birth would have become as normalized as my experience with death. I do have to be thankful because my 2nd baby would not have lived had I not been in the care of Doctors and nurses however, I do see how western medical attitudes keep death at bay so that using the symbol offered in the book, the Angel of Death - that Angel sure has to fight through to find an opening and then, there is little that is normal but rather as if life is snatched rather than a passing.

Thanks Ginny, great summation about the story of Jacob - Obviously the author and I are poles apart in our thinking and conclusions - at least I have my deductions and yes, I do get annoyed don't I - claptrap I say  I feel like scrooge saying bah humbug. 

We each have our plans how to live during our advancing years - lists and 10 commandments for some and others, taking on whatever comes. I am most grateful that I am not a victim of the slow death that is Alzheimer's... that would be excruciating as much for the family as the elder victim. 

I have learned much reading the posts from Hongfan, Bubble, Bellamarie, Jonathan and Ginny - many times these posts included another viewpoint. As I understand the viewpoint it helped me clarify and strengthen my own beliefs - a great gift to helping me clarify my identity - Interesting, I have experienced often how I think differently than even family members and where I do not seek their agreement I do get annoyed when folks seek security and the safety of continuity - I become fearful for them - I want everyone to feel OK stepping blindly off the rock but then, that is only logical if you see life as chaos and so, I truly fear for anyone attempting to hold on to stability and traditional systems and organization - Oh I can see and I do enjoy tradition but to hang on and attempt to push forward systems steeped in tradition, scares me as I only see them being tumped with the great risk of drowning when they go over life's waterfalls.

I need to learn how to say, Az ikh vel zayn vi er, ver vet zayn vi ikh? I love that - If I would be like him, who would be like me?

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow Hongfan - now that will take time  for me to wrap my head around. In other words time is relative to the participant observer? Never thought but I guess time would be involved in figuring out consciousness. Wow this is going to be a lot to chew on to understand any of it... thanks

[bellamarie]

The Jacob story for me was the leading up to what I saw as the climax of the book.  I was all engrossed in Myerhoff going through his entire life, how he had been such a self less person, lived for everyone else, survived so many pitfalls in his life, yet kept a positive attitude, forged through and made a good and successful life.  She had me waiting with baited breath to hear Jacob's wise words, his last words to speak to the Center people.  The Center people were looking forward to this icon, to speak his knowledge to them, something they were hoping to help them in some way after he was gone.  Myerhoff presented the entire story of Jacob as if he were a Moses, a prophet come down from the mountain with the knowledge,wisdom and direction from God, or as Elijah, or even a supernatural.

pg. 126  Had there been no intimations of the supernatural, the death, would probably have been frightening, suggesting that Jacob's mortal powers were beyond what we normally regard as possible.  The hints that there were other forces at work, besides Jacob's will and beyond his control, made a religious experience of one that might otherwise have been more bizarre than spiritual. 

Then Jacob is finally ready and able to give his speech, and Myerhoff gives us a translation of his speech:

Dear Friends:  Every other year I have had something significant to say, some meaningful message when we came together for this yontif.  But this year, I don't have an important message.  I don't have the strength... It is very hard for me to accept the idea that I am played out... Nature has a good way of expressing herself when bringing humanity to the end of its years, but when it touches you personally it is hard to comprehend...I do have a wish for today... It is this: that my last five years, until I am one hundred, my birthday will be celebrated here with you... whether I am here or not.  It will be an opportunity for the member of my beloved Center to be together for a simcha and at the same time raise money for our beleaguered Israrel."

With all due respect, I felt the suspense and waiting to hear this speech fell flat for me.  Myerhoff's translation of it possibly is the reason why it left me feeling disappointed.  It was obvious she was leading us up to the dramatic death of Jacob, but then she goes into a litany of analysis that I felt overplayed the whole purpose of Jacob's story.  But I think what was the true disappointment for me was, she then goes on with the whole invented conversation with Schmuel.  Myerhoff writes this entire chapter of Jacob in a sense that she was actually there witnessing, feeling and interacting with everyone and everything, when in fact she was not.  I think this is what has bothered me.  She seems to be writing in past and present tense, leaving me feeling a bit confused.  But what bothered me more so was her analytical and invented words that followed the funeral, especially the entire invented conversation with Schmuel, placing her own personal emotions into the story:

pg. 228  "Schmuel, I can't help but feel somewhat sad that your death was so little noticed while Jacob's was given so much attention.  You deserved more honor and gratitude."

She can't speak words in quotations for Schmuel, because he was not alive at the time this happened, although I understand her intent is to show how Schmuel would have felt about the whole ordeal. 

I don't intend to lessen Jacob's life and death, but I guess I have the same thoughts as Myerhoff having Schmuel stating, had he been alive:

"In my opinion, Jacob was a good man, a fine man even, he should rest in peace, but his death was an exaggeration.  His birthday party, the same.  A party is one thing, but a simcha for all Judaism this goes too far.  A man is a man.  This is his highest work.  It takes away from him to make him a hero."

Ginny, 

I personally think the Holocaust was as low as humanity can go.

I agree, and yet our government allows  the slaughter of innocent unborn babies inside the mother's wombs to carry out the plan of Margaret Sanger who's sole purpose of Planned Parenthood was to exterminate class, religion, creed, race and those less fortunate with diseases, because she believed they had no right to live. Since Roe v Wade more unborn babies have died at the hands of abortion than the number of lives lost in the Holocaust.  We have learned nothing throughout the years?  In the words of Schmuel: 

'Az ikh vel zayn vi er, ver vet zayn vi ikh?  [If I would be like him, who would be like me?]  No truer words spoken.   

[ginny]

 I actually  had one foot out the door for a day of activity with grandson, already anticipating happily pondering hongfan's  and Barbara's posts when I stopped by one last time and read  445.

Bellamarie, I  think your post 445  on the Jacob story intended to be leading up to a climax and then the invented Shmuel bit is brilliant. I think you nailed it. I had totally forgotten about the invented Shmuel bit.  Yes  yes yes!


Brilliant! All the pieces have now  clicked into place for me, you've nailed the Jacob placement in the book and the flatness and  I had forgotten the Shmuel made up dialogue, you've nailed it!  No wonder some of our readers  think the Jacob story is not real.

THAT was a masterpiece, excuse me for saying so. Am off with grandchild, will catch you all tonight. Well done!

[hongfan]

On the abortion topic, I can see each side has its argument, and life is not black and white, it is a case by case and circumstance by circumstance.

When I was pregnant with my first child, three of my close friends were pregnant too and four of us gave birth in the same year, it was a party! Then one of my friends, in a few months after, noticed her infant son was not developing normally, they brought him to all the best pediatrians and no one knew what was the problem, the baby gradually, a bit by bit, lost his ability to see, listen, eat and eventually breathe, the parents and the baby were all in a ordeal for two years until his death! It's just heartbroken every time we saw him and made you wonder what is the meaning to maintain a life in such suffering? In such a case, an abortion might be the best for everyone - if it could be detected during her pregnancy, which unfortunately was not.

I guess our views are all shaped by our own experiences, circumstances, cultures and religious beliefs, and it is difficult to address when multiple factors are involved.

[hongfan]

I am not surprised that Jacob was not saying much "important" messages. I actually wonder for someone, knowing the Angel of Death is waiting and this is the last moment that he/she can say something, what would this person say? I am curious. To me, seems words are shallow in those last moments? If you already know the truth of the life, the wisdom of the wisdom, then you cannot share in words any way.

In Daoism, there is a saying: the one knows doesn't say, the one says doesn't know.

[bellamarie]

hongfan,   

life is not black and white, it is a case by case and circumstance by circumstance.

 
I can not agree with this, because if I do then we are thinking as a dictator, deciding which human life is more important.  Since my Christian belief is that God is the creator of human life, then I have to believe, He has a purpose for every human life created.  When we give the theory of case by case, and circumstance by circumstance, then we are taking another's life into our own hands.  As the result of this, we have those who are now profiting from the selling of organs from the butchered babies, while they are still alive inside the womb. 

It's just heartbroken every time we saw him and made you wonder what is the meaning to maintain a life in such suffering? In such a case, an abortion might be the best for everyone - if it could be detected during her pregnancy, which unfortunately was not.

My heart goes out to this family you mentioned, but, I'm betting those parents who held that precious baby in their arms, treasured that little baby as imperfect as he was, would not have seen it through the eyes of others.  As heartbreaking as it was for them, and others to see this baby and family live through their experience, I am certain they cherished every second they had with their baby.  As we have learned in this book, pain is something we all have to experience in life, we can't avoid it, we must live through it and learn from it.  Pain is as natural as love, and I believe those parents through all their pain, grew in love, and in ways others could never understand, and may teach others from living with their baby boy. 

I guess our views are all shaped by our own experiences, circumstances, cultures and religious beliefs, and it is difficult to address when multiple factors are involved.

Yes, and I while I can't agree with your views, I respect you sharing them.  That's what makes this and all our discussions so interesting, we all have different opinions and views.

[bellamarie]

hongfan, 

I am not surprised that Jacob was not saying much "important" messages. I actually wonder for someone, knowing the Angel of Death is waiting and this is the last moment that he/she can say something, what would this person say? I am curious. To me, seems words are shallow in those last moments? If you already know the truth of the life, the wisdom of the wisdom, then you cannot share in words any way.

In Daoism, there is a saying: the one knows doesn't say, the one says doesn't know.

The author chose to use Jacob's story as her climax of the book in my opinion.  According to her, Jacob was holding out dying, knowing the Angel of Death was at his side, so he could give this monumental speech to the Center people.  The author had the readers all hyped up, waiting to hear the final words of wisdom from this so called prophet.  The Center people were waiting for his words of wisdom to help them in their final days, so what he had to say would not have been considered "shallow."  The author chose to translate Jacob's speech, and in my opinion it fell flat.  I feel we are given knowledge and wisdom to share with others, just as great philosophers, inventors, prophets, priests, theologians, professors, teachers, elders, etc., etc., have done throughout time.  If we are not meant to share our wisdom to help others progress and learn in life, then what good would it be to gain it?  God has given us the inspired word of the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc., to help us share His word, so we may gain in knowledge and wisdom to pass it on. This entire book was written, meant for the Center people to share their knowledge and wisdom, to help others to learn and understand more about aging.  Meyrhoff in her last words with Schmuel proves she did not deliver on the Jacob story.  She has Schmuel telling her:

pg. 229  "You admire it if you want.  Don't ask me to.  It's the same thing that always bothers me, how they are always making up everything.  Not letting things be themselves.  I suppose as usual you are finding something in your anthropology book about people dying like this?"

Then the last words Myerhoff has Schmuel saying in this chapter, after she tells him of being familiar with the Angel of Death through losing her parents, grandparents and good friend Ruth who was like a sister to her is:

pg 231 (Schmuel)  "I think this attitude you are talking about, paying such attention to life, is what we mean by 'a heart of wisdom.'" he replied.  "In the psalm it says, "So teach us to number our days, that we may get us a heart of wisdom."

Again, I have a problem with Myerhoff the author, the anthropologist inventing this conversation in the end with Schmuel to place herself into the story, and find endings even so much so, for her own title of the book.  An anthropologist as I see it, is like a journalist, they should remain unbiased and leave their personal feelings and emotions out of the reporting.  When they break this rule, they then begin to fabricate, making the story unreal and unbelievable.  This is where the story at least this ending of the chapter became about her, instead of Jacob or the Center people.  Just as journalists have lost their perspective in reporting and lost their jobs in doing this, I feel Myerhoff did indeed get distracted with her attachment to Schmuel, and imposing her personal self, in needing to invent the entire conversations with him in this chapter.

I, myself grew attached to Schmuel, I was disappointed when he died so early on.  Ginny asked if the order of the book could have been different.  It appears our author was not ready for Schmuel to die so early, and needed to keep him alive, even if it had to be through her own creation.  She seems determined to make Schmuel the protagonist in the story, maybe even the hero.   

[hongfan]

Bellamarie, we all agree that in this case different views and choices should be allowed  and respected, and no one should impose their values and beliefs onto others, to have a law banning on abortion is imposing one value/belief system onto all, and the same with all the bloody crusades in the past. You can even argue that is the starting point of holocaust, thinking one set of values and beliefs is superior to others.

I would even go further to argue that taking out all regions, this world might be more peaceful, so many religious wars and so many lives lost because of it.

[bellamarie]

hongfan, Having a law allowing abortion is imposing one value/belief system onto all.  I can respectfully agree to disagree with you, and not attempt to impose my values and beliefs onto anyone. They are mine alone, and I am thankful I have them.  I will end it here.

[Jonathan]

'In Daoism, there is a saying: the one knows doesn't say, the one says doesn't know.'

I respect the views of both of you. Beyond that I'll adopt the Daoist tactic and keep my mouth shut. The better part of wisdom.

I would like to quote you one more time, Hongfan: 'I actually wonder for someone, knowing the Angel of Death is waiting and this is the last moment that he/she can say something, what would this person say? I am curious. To me, seems words are shallow in those last moments?' 

They weren't Dad's last words on earth. They were his first words from heaven that took me by surprise. He was 90 and in palliative care. I stopped in to see him and he seemed asleep. It wasn't very long. His eyes opened. He saw me standing at his bed and a broad smile crossed his face. 'What are you doing here!?' he exclaimed. Consciousness returned. 'I dreamed I was in heaven,' he said wistfully. And I reassured him most heartily that I would not disappoint him, God willing.

[BarbStAubrey]

Hasidism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMoFQhOG_Ok

[BarbStAubrey]

OKaaaa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh3S88ksnJ8

[bellamarie]

Interesting links Barb, thanks for sharing.

Jonathan, you have surely been blessed with your wife and father giving you spiritual insights in their death.

Something I have noticed in the past couple years, and more so as I near my 65th birthday in just a few days, is how I have come to a peace with aging and dying, much like Leah describes here:

pg.   I  think outliving one's children must be the heaviest burden a person can carry.  Yet she was not defeated even by that.  As we sat on the bed, she reminisced about her childhood and the fullness of her life.  She was prepared for death, but was not anticipating it by diminishing her life now.  As we talked, I felt as though another presence sat on the bed with us, quietly, without threat, the Angel, with his wings folded.  When people have  made this peace with death, they live with greater consciousness.  Every day, every moment becomes more complete in itself.  It makes people impatient with trivia, decorum, deception, because every moment counts, for good or ill."

To add to this insight of Leah's..... is for me, I find the moments with my family and friends are so much more heartfelt.  We went to my favorite Italian restaurant last night with my sons, daughter in laws, and grandchildren, and just sitting there looking down the table of the twelve of us (missing one granddaughter and her boyfriend who had to work) I was filled with so much joy and love.  The waitresses and waiters surprised me coming to sing Happy Birthday to me, using my birth given first name Annabella, which one of my sneaky grandkids informed them of, and I stood looking at my flaming cake with 65 candles burning, as they sang, and I thought to myself..... this is what life is all about, I am blessed!  My birthday wish I will not tell, since they say it won't come true if you reveal it, but I will say, I felt it coming true in that very moment.   

[hats]

I have read Post # 50 more than once. Now I understand Ginny's statement. I would like to read about this rare group of Jewish people. Yes, we always hear about the same groups over and over again.

[bellamarie]

hats, It's so good to see you!!!  You would really like this book, and discussion.  We are nearing the ending, but please stick around and join in, it's certainly a topic we can all relate to and gain some insight from.  I've really enjoyed getting to learn about the Jewish people, culture and their personal thoughts and beliefs on aging, religion, and family.

[ginny]

Sorry for being AWOL, our 4 day visit is over and a good time was had by all, thank you for continuing on so well.

I still have some thoughts on this chapter but I think it's time for one of our hiatuses (where we can say anything we'd like) till Wednesday when we read the last chapter in the book, "Jewish comes  up in you from the roots." That's the last real chapter in the book.

After that we have two very short items, the Epilogue and the Afterword, which I think we need to read. She also has a lot of notes in the back, some of which are quite interesting, which you may want to consult.

 So next Wednesday then for Chapter 7.

Hats, how good to see you here! (My old Philly buddy!) This is a wonderful discussion which has ranged a long way afar from the book in some cases but which has been most enjoyable. The comments are absolutely wonderful!

[ginny]

So here we are facing the last 30 or so pages of the book. When we started it out, we were actually taking on a firecracker, in that we are discussing 2 of the three topics that you never discuss at the dinner table: religion, politics (and what is the 3rd?) I think we've done a good job.

I'm not going to pretend I understand everything that's been said in each of the last 400+ posts, nor that I agree with all of them, nor that I even find some of the concepts 100 percent  logical, but we all have our own ideas and the range of them has been very educational.

We started saying we would talk about aging and I think this chapter we've just read has some wonderful suggestions about how to grow old. In fact I think the entire book has been that way by example and by direct address. This chapter and the two Epilogues and Afterword are the ones I have been dreading because loose ends have to be tied up and realistically, I dread hearing how how our "friends" at the Center fared.

SO, let's begin with your thoughts:

Hongfan, what interesting concepts you've brought to the table:

According to biocentrism, time is bio-logical — completely subjective and invariably emerges from a unitary co-relative process. All knowledge amounts to relationships of information, with the observer alone imparting spatiotemporal meaning.  Since time doesn’t actually exist outside of perception, there is no experiential “after death,” even for a plant, except the death of its physical structure in our "now." You can’t say the plant or animal observer comes or goes or dies, since these are merely temporal concepts.

But what if it's like the tree in the forest, if it falls and nobody hears it, did it make a sound? One of my geraniums has suffered a premature death due to a soccer ball in the house. I can see it's dead.  But I'm not the only one. Anybody who walks by it in the next few days can see it's dead.  So what can we say when so many people can see it's gone?

Does that change the individual perception? And the death itself? Or is it really dead and the world does not actually revolve around us individually after all? What a fascinating topic.

This was a thoughtful point, Barbara: I want everyone to feel OK stepping blindly off the rock but then, that is only logical if you see life as chaos and so, I truly fear for anyone attempting to hold on to stability and traditional systems and organization - Oh I can see and I do enjoy tradition but to hang on and attempt to push forward systems steeped in tradition, scares me as I only see them being tumped with the great risk of drowning when they go over life's waterfalls.


I think the appeal of traditions for some people, regardless of what traditions they are, it seems sometimes every family has other ones is that they are somewhat as you say, they are comfortable in that they give comfort, and they make people feel better.


I'm just going to put almost this entire post which followed 450, because it's so good: Bellamarie, who in a previous post said she thought the Jacob section as leading  up to the climax of the book.



With all due respect, I felt the suspense and waiting to hear this speech fell flat for me.  Myerhoff's translation of it possibly is the reason why it left me feeling disappointed.  It was obvious she was leading us up to the dramatic death of Jacob, but then she goes into a litany of analysis that I felt overplayed the whole purpose of Jacob's story.  But I think what was the true disappointment for me was, she then goes on with the whole invented conversation with Schmuel.  Myerhoff writes this entire chapter of Jacob in a sense that she was actually there witnessing, feeling and interacting with everyone and everything, when in fact she was not.  I think this is what has bothered me.  She seems to be writing in past and present tense, leaving me feeling a bit confused.  But what bothered me more so was her analytical and invented words that followed the funeral, especially the entire invented conversation with Schmuel, placing her own personal emotions into the story:

pg. 228  "Schmuel, I can't help but feel somewhat sad that your death was so little noticed while Jacob's was given so much attention.  You deserved more honor and gratitude."

She can't speak words in quotations for Schmuel, because he was not alive at the time this happened, although I understand her intent is to show how Schmuel would have felt about the whole ordeal.

I don't intend to lessen Jacob's life and death, but I guess I have the same thoughts as Myerhoff having Schmuel stating, had he been alive:

"In my opinion, Jacob was a good man, a fine man even, he should rest in peace, but his death was an exaggeration.  His birthday party, the same.  A party is one thing, but a simcha for all Judaism this goes too far.  A man is a man.  This is his highest work.  It takes away from him to make him a hero."

I couldn't deal with Shmuel speaking either, or her dialogue with him. For me it interfered with the divide I had previously felt of the expert and the Center participant.  It made me question all the other conclusions, if this is made up because she knows what he'd say then since he's not here she's speaking for him...questionable, I think, and really does nothing to help the way the Jacob story is presented.

 It's a shame. The last bit of this chapter to me ...I don't know what to say, really. We are now dealing in fiction in our conversation with Shmuel,  so what else is fictitious? The whole thing is an anti climax, I think. 

On the other hand, not sure what else could have been done. Start with Jacob, perhaps? Omit the dialogue entirely between what Shmuel would have said? Surely he can speak for himself when he does.

[ginny]

Bellamarie quotes this:

pg. 228  "Schmuel, I can't help but feel somewhat sad that your death was so little noticed while Jacob's was given so much attention.  You deserved more honor and gratitude."

She can't speak words in quotations for Schmuel, because he was not alive at the time this happened, although I understand her intent is to show how Schmuel would have felt about the whole ordeal.

I don't intend to lessen Jacob's life and death, but I guess I have the same thoughts as Myerhoff having Schmuel stating, had he been alive:

"In my opinion, Jacob was a good man, a fine man even, he should rest in peace, but his death was an exaggeration.  His birthday party, the same.  A party is one thing, but a simcha for all Judaism this goes too far.  A man is a man.  This is his highest work.  It takes away from him to make him a hero."

It's not a competition. A beautiful woman is no less beautiful if another gorgeous woman enters the room. If anything it makes them both shine. The author has a connection to Shmuel and rightly so, he's been wonderful for her. She is sorry his passing did not attract what she felt he deserved and she's probably right, but to have him after death, to imagine him saying the above, that a simcha for all Judaism goes too far.  It takes away from him to make him a hero... This is....not good. At all.

She doesn't know what Shmuel would have said, he might have said something completely different. He might have started by saying you understand nothing as he did so many times.   This is not a good section of the book, in my opinion. It's not a contest. It's dear  of her, she obviously misses Shmuel and felt very close to  him,  but it's not a contest. Shmuel shines as brightly as he always did, no matter what was done for Jacob.

This MAY explain the way Jacob was presented in the first place.

[ginny]

Bellamarie, was it your birthday ceebration?

Happy 65th Birthday!

(Loved that it won't come true if you tell it. We can add that to our list of modern superstitions, but I do it, too.)

[BarbStAubrey]

Happy Birthday Bellamarie

[BarbStAubrey]

Hats so pleased to see your post - hope all is well with you - this has certainly been a book that seems to dig deep into our own beliefs so there is probably not a lot of consensus since we are all such individuals.

Well it is prompting me to do a few things - things I kept waiting for the perfect time that now I realize there is no perfect time and no, I cannot do them as first imagined but for instance, I have wanted to make different kinds of soups and apple dishes - so I started today.

Each week for a year I am going to make a different soup and during the week make one apple dish - I have a recipe book that includes an apple dish for every day of the year - I realize now I am never going to do an apple dish a day so why not an apple dish a week - have to choose a day when I do not have tons to do or find and use only the simple recipes so that means reading the book again and choosing the simplest recipe out of 7 and for soup - I have tons of cookbooks with soup recipes. I love soup and this gives me the push to make some new ones although, today I am doing one that is familiar to a degree.

Found farm fresh chicken legs with thigh attached for only .99 a pound  - two legs were all of .70 - can you believe 70 cents - I had picked up some of that inexpensive Tisdale wine @ 4.99 since I have a whole frozen chicken I'll do later this week (my chicken week) I like washing them in wine - helps cut down on bacteria and it increases the taste at the same time -

So in went about a half a cup of wine after the chicken legs were browning a bit in some olive oil - then added what I had in the frig - a white onion quartered, a small piece of ginger cut into slivers, cut about 3 inches off the top of a bunch of celery, 3 carrots topped and cut in half, 3 small new potatoes cut in half and about 2 cups of water, salt, white pepper and some summer savory - it is in the oven in a thick Le Creuset Casserole - and so the beginning of weekly soup for a year.   

I've been fed up with the news and only watch PBS TV on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday nights and so I need to pull out my knitting instead of wasting time on facebook or jumping TV stations just because I always have the TV on after dark - if I cannot stand it with the TV off then I have a few concerts on CDs that I can use as background sound.

 I have some of the nicest wool - First I want to make at least a pair of socks each month - just simple socks - I have some wonderful colorful thick wool so they will be more like house socks - I could squeeze in a pair for July that I started last winter (grey with red tops, heels and toes) and then I have 5 months till Christmas so all 5 grandboys could get a pair of cozy house socks - that is a start - with the temps around 104 I am not going to promise an evening walk - I want to but, just doing these other three things is a big start towards working on my bucket list of things to do that I had been waiting for the perfect time to get started.

Now I need to get my apple desert book out and see what it will be this week. Tip if you did not know, do not buy Gala apples - they are so cheap because they are genetically engineered by Monsanto to allow the fruit to last longer in storage and planted a few years ago - there were 3 other popular kinds and I forgot which but the telling factor is they are much less expensive a pound than other apples.

that is an issue those living in the Center do not seem to have to face or that Barbara did not address - the musical chairs we must play to get food that is not going to mess us up - grrr... and now we hear that Japan is going to dump all the toxic nuclear waste from Fukushima in the already contaminated Pacific.

[ginny]

What a sweet story about your visit with your dad, Jonathan. You are lucky or blessed or both to have had that conversation.


Hongfan, this was a good question: I actually wonder for someone, knowing the Angel of Death is waiting and this is the last moment that he/she can say something, what would this person say? I am curious


In How We Die a physician explains what happens when the body systems physically begin to fail. He is of the opinion, if I  understood him correctly that when all systems are failing the time for meaningful conversation needs to take place before the final moments, not at the moment of death. Obviously there are exceptions to this theory and we have seen many presented here. I think however it would be useful to remember, just in case.

Thank you for those links to Hasidism, Barbara, most interesting.

I hope I have not missed anything or anybody, if I have, I apologize.

The author has "Shmuel," on page 231, say "I think this attitude you are talking about, paying such attention to life, is what we mean by a 'heart of wisdom,'" he replied.

And there we have the meaning of the Psalm, and the title of the book.   But again, it's manufactured in a fictional "conversation" with Shmuel. So to me that defeats the purpose.

  Again we have a dream at the end of this chapter. Page 231 again, " I  had a dream the other night when I was writing up my notes about Jacob's death, Shmuel. A man of great wisdom, a doctor...this part and the doctor ended... .....Go home and live fully. The fatal disease is life."

What do you think of that paragraph on the last page of this chapter? Whose philosophy is this? 

[ginny]

Barbara, what a great post. I did not know that about Japan!!!

 do not buy Gala apples - they are so cheap because they are genetically engineered by Monsanto to allow the fruit to last longer in storage and planted a few years ago - there were 3 other popular kinds and I forgot which but the telling factor is they are much less expensive a pound than other apple

I did not know this about apples. I only buy Fugi Organic for eating.


Each week for a year I am going to make a different soup and during the week make one apple dish - I have a recipe book that includes an apple dish for every day of the year - I realize now I am never going to do an apple dish a day so why not an apple dish a week - have to choose a day when I do not have tons to do or find and use only the simple recipes so that means reading the book again and choosing the simplest recipe out of 7 and for soup - I have tons of cookbooks with soup recipes. I love soup and this gives me the push to make some new ones although, today I am doing one that is familiar to a degree.

This is exciting! My great aunt's house always smelled of apples. She always had apples stewing on the stove or just cooked and obviously  her apple a day didn't keep the doctor away, she was one well into her 80's. I don't think anything smells better than an apple cooking.


that is an issue those living in the Center do not seem to have to face or that Barbara did not address - the musical chairs we must play to get food that is not going to mess us up - grrr...   Yep, T.S.Eliot did: "Do I dare to eat a peach?"  Very good point or maybe she didn't realize it.

[ginny]

And so on we go, talking of what strikes us until Wednesday when we take up Chapter 7. I'll put some points to ponder in Tuesday evening for everybody to be thinking about.

[BarbStAubrey]

I really like the idea that Hongfan shared about our body decomposing to the atmosphere - I do not see any of this as contrary to the idea of God - Since no one has ever seen God, the bible says some have dreamed or seen God behind a rock or in the clouds but then what is true - folks trying to reach for order and comfort can dream they see - these are  folks without the ability to 'know' as today - This was back when they still believed the earth was sitting on 4 large tree trunks and the sky was a bowl that if it rained meant there was a leak in the bowl - based on this kind of understanding about the earth we decided to make God look like a man with super powers - it gave comfort back when mankind was grappling with God as a power, centuries before Christ.

In addition, we have so many stories about God and how we came about - whose to tell if we are any better at guessing the story of the beginning of mankind than the Sioux or the Hindu.

And so, the idea that there is a power I'll call God before the big bang fits - back before the universe which is the journey of our protons that make up our body today. Just as we learned those 7 days spoken about in the early bible are not days as we imagine time to be divided into 24 hours - we have 24 millenniums for mankind to evolve from the earliest bits of life and so why not have us vaporize back into those early components - Also, it was man who came up with the idea of a here-after, heaven and hell.

Many have suggested there is hell on earth for some - who knows - I think when I have read enough about the development of consciousness I will have a better scenario for myself - because frankly that is all it is - our own fairytale - folks do not die and come back to tell us all about it.

With the far reaches now of the known universe there has not been any bumping into a place called heaven and if our soul is like our consciousness they are pretty much invisible. Again, who knows but, I like the idea of vaporizing - maybe seeding clouds or attaching bits of my chemical base to stars. Its our skeleton that hangs around for a very long time - now that when you think of it is facinating.     

You are so right Ginny this book is a key to opening our mind to so many thoughts that do not come up in daily conversation - this has been great...

[so P bubble]

ooopsss the notify did not work and I forgot to look in, days fly by so fast!  Sorry...

I have been thinking about the time concept,  abouth death.
If time is not the reality that we imagine, then there could be parallel time running simultaneously?  Then death in one time would not be death in another?

Anyway, my own concept of death is NOT an end. It is just exiting from one door and entering on a one-way the other side of that door in another dimension, another "reality".   Which explain why we don't have concrete info from behind that door.
I don't fear that unknown, just mildly curious about it.

Maybe the Angel of Death is the one timely opening that door?

 

[so P bubble]

we all agree that in this case different views and choices should be allowed  and respected, and no one should impose their values and beliefs onto others, to have a law banning on abortion is imposing one value/belief system onto all...

I would even go further to argue that taking out all regions, this world might be more peaceful, so many religious wars and so many lives lost because of it.

I agree with you on all this, except   I realize that taking out all religions would be for some people like pulling the crutches from under them.  They need the belief to feel secure, to give them a direction in life.  I know it is not like that for all religious people, but true for many of them who do not question.

In the book, religion seems to be more of tradition, force of habit than profound faith.

[bellamarie]

Thank you Ginny & Barb for the wonderful birthday wishes.  Yes, my birthday is Wed. the 26th and I will officially be a member of Medicare.  Oh was that ever enlightening as the mail poured in leading up to July, for me to decide if I want part B, C, or D along with A.  I spoke with many of my friends and family who have crossed this senior threshold, and decided since my hubby has me on his Blue Cross Blue Shield with his retired Post Office insurance which acts as a supplemental, I declined B,C and D.  It was shocking to see how much it would cost a month to have just Part B. 

Speaking of keeping with tradition, or not, we celebrated my birthday early this year because my son and his family were leaving to go out of town today, and would not be back for my birthday.  We always were a stickler to celebrate "ON" the actual birthday, no sooner, no later and ONLY ONE day to celebrate.  Well, when my son married his wife we learned there are lots of days to celebrate, including their tradition that can begin the month of their birthday, or a week leading up to the day, or go even beyond the actual birthday.  Not to mention you can even celebrate your half birthday if you so wish to.  It reminds me of Alice In Wonderland celebrating a Very Merry Un-Birthday which is 364 days of the year!      Oh, you can just imagine how this went over with me and my hubby.  But as the years have gone by, we have learned to go with the flow.  We don't do half birthdays, and we are finding this celebrating for days on end can be a very costly trend, so we buy their gifts, give them when we do our "family" celebration, and be done!  All the others that come before or after, we attend and don't feel bad, we didn't carry in yet another gift.  We are okay with changing our ways to adapt to our new family members, but like my hubby says, "Don't mess with our Christmas Eve, going to Mass together, and then back to our house for dinner and gift opening."  Oh, and Thanksgiving will remain at our house til we can't do it anymore.  (I'm preparing him to be a bit more flexible, since I can see even this changing in the near future.)

Some may see tradition and religion as a force of habit, or a comfort and security, but for me they are what truly brings meaning into our lives.  Sharing our traditions and faith is like breathing to us. God "IS" our center.  We have been blessed to have raised our kids and grandkids to love our Lord, and to give all thanks and praise to Him, just as our generations before us believed, lived, and passed on to us .  In a world of chaos, confusion, wars, instability, my faith gives me clarity, and yes security, because the one thing I know for certain, is I can turn to God and pray for strength, patience, wisdom, and his gift of grace. My faith is who I am, without it I would not be the person I am .  I can question things about my faith, because I think in doing so, it gives me more knowledge, it allows me to continue to go to my Bible study and ask hard questions, and learn more about not only my faith, but others as well.  I live by our Apostle's Creed, the Beattitudes, the Corporal Works of Mercy, the great Our Father prayer, our Lord taught us.  In my wisdom, as I am about to turn sixty-five years old, (which is still young, according to my sister in law, who is 78) I have come to realize that there will always be people in this world who will mock, snub, slander, and persecute those who choose to follow their faith.  I have seen the slaughter of Christians on the news to validate the hate people have in their hearts still, if only because we don't think like them.  There are leaders who kill innocent children only because they are the wrong gender, and have no right to take up space in their world, who kill because of your choice of a sex partner, who choose to believe differently.  These countries then want to have the audacity to presume to tell others how we are to live, think, believe and act according to their rule.  So, for me, there is only one God, one ruler of the universe, and I will believe and follow that God and pray to join Him in His Heavenly kingdom one day.  For those who don't, I can respect that, but what I will never understand, is how anyone can reject God because they feel He has disappointed and let them down.  Throughout since the universe began, there has been evil in the world, to blame evilness acts people choose to do, on God is inconceivable to me.  We have been taught right from wrong, good from evil, and given the free will to choose. Should we choose to do evil, we can not then blame God, for the consequences of the evil we choose to do.   

Barb, I absolutely love your idea of apple and soup making, along with knitting.  This past Christmas I picked up my knitting needles and crochet hooks for the first time in years, and managed to do a scarf & matching bun hat for my four granddaughters.  I found this pattern where you leave an opening in the top of the hat so their bun or ponytail can hang out of the hat.  The joy on those girls faces when they opened them and realized "Nonni" made them, were priceless.  My oldest Kenzie wore her's to her college class on a very cold, windy, snowy, blustery day and took a "selfie" and posted it on FB.  Oh the joy it brought my heart when I saw that hat and scarf on her, keeping her toasty warm.  Socks are a great idea, I may give that a try this Christmas.  Good idea to get started now, I was rushing myself like mad to get those scarfs and hats done to wrap by Christmas Eve.  We have a fabulous knitting shop nearby us.  Hayden my next to the youngest, had a day off of school so I took her with me to let her pick out her own color and yarn for her scarf and hat.  We looked like two kids in a candy shop!  Nothing more fun than to pick up a ball of yarn, two knitting needles and begin those stitches, then seeing the finished product.  You must show me pics when you get the socks done.  I am already smelling your apple and soup cooking, and it's not even Fall time yet.  The perfect moment is always....... NOW!!!

[ANNIE]

Hongfan, I just read and shared your second link and was so fascinated, I can't quit thinking about it!  Fascinating! Some of it, I was aware of but there was much to just sit and cogitate!

Although I have not commented very much, I have enjoyed reading all the posts concerning this thought producing book! Myerhoff has another book entitled "Peyote Hunting" about a tribe in the mountains of northern Mexico. 

But I thought some of us might enjoyed  reading Ursula Hegi's books which are about the German immigrants who came here after WWII.  They are fiction but since Hegi experienced much of what she writes, it seems anthropologic. We have discussed her "Stones From The River".

I am sure many authors do similar writing.

Studs Terkel has written a book entitled "Coming of Age: The Story of Our Century by Those Who've Lived It" which I just discovered while preparing boxes of book donations for our library
since I am downsizing and moving to smaller quarters. I returned it to the pile of books that are going with me! 

I am now starting "Jewish comes up in you from the roots " which gives us more to consider about the group that our author has chosen to use for her anthropological opinion.  Let's see what else she wants us to see from her perspective!

[bellamarie]

Annie, it is so nice to hear from you!   How is the moving going?  My good friend Sandy, a widow since March is now moving into her elder apartment this coming week.  My son and daughter in law spent a few hours yesterday with her at her house sorting through what she will keep and bring with her, what she will donate, and what she has been able to give to family & friends.  She is excited, yet apprehensive since as she said, "This will be my first time ever living by myself."   As I have mentioned, she is only ten minutes from my son and her daughter's house, so she can feel secure in knowing they are so close by.  Will you be close to any of your family?  I am taking notes, and keeping in the back of my mind as you and others go through this process, to help me if and when it comes. 

This author has me a bit uncertain of the validity of her writing, with her taking the liberties of all the fiction she has peppered into to the story, but one thing is for certain, I have learned much from the Center people, and the members of this discussion.   

[hats]

Ginny, I remember those conversations with fondness. I am glad this discussion has gone so well.

[Jonathan]

Hi Hats! How nice of you to drop in. Yes, indeed. This has turned into a most rousing discussion. A lot of thought is going into it. Two little quotes from today's posts catch the spirit:

'Let's see what else she wants us to see from her perspective.'

'This author has me a bit uncertain of the validity of her writing...by introducing a lot of fiction.'

Thank you, Annie, and Bellamarie. She did promise us lots of action and portraying death as drama, as she has in this chapter, has called out unusual writing skills. I find the imaginary conversation with Shmuel very effective. She's acknowledging the debt she owes him. His death...what a contrast. It took 3 days just to get the news of it. She's still not over it. It certainly helped to form her perspective. And so did the death of Ruth, 'her beloved friend of twenty years, who was like my sister,' to whom she dedicated the book. (p230) As did 'another interesting book about ceremonial death that you might enjoy' (spoken to Shmuel, p229) This is a most unusual book. I had forgotten I had it in the house. It was written just before Barbara M wrote hers. Yes, I think the author had a lot of irons in the fire for this one.

I'm pleased that 'our' Barbara has even found the answer to the 'chaos' problem of life in this book. We're all coming over for some apple pie.

[so P bubble]

About the imaginary conversation with Shmuel.
It was particularly interesting for me, not so much about the content but because it clarified a habit of years.
When I start to wake up in the mornings, I often have imaginary exchange with people, talking my mind (which I usually do not do!) and furnishing answers as well.  I now understand that it is a way to relieve stress or frustrations, a way to exterior- ize feelings and at times helps me find solutions to daily problems.
For me the way the author introduced that  exchange just showed me how much she missed Shmuel and was trying to come to term with that.
I don't know if anyone has the same habit I have, but in my eyes it was totally natural, normal.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, I agree, I think Meyerhoff had a very close relationship with Schumel and just did not want it to be over.  It was so unexpected. To be honest, even though I felt it was not proper for an anthropologist to place fiction in her book of studies, I did understand her needing and wanting her good pal Schmuel there with her to continue talking to her, giving her his advice and opinions.  From the very beginning of the book Schmuel captured my interest, and I could see myself sitting and talking with him for hours.  I was so disappointed he died early on in the book. Of all the people in the Center, Schmuel has been my favorite person. 

Bubble, I don't have imaginary conversations with people, but I do have many with God.  I tell him all my frustrations, and I actually am able to sort a lot of things out just taking that time out to give it all up to God.  I have a favorite saying which I am sure many have heard..."Let go, let God."  So I suppose Myerhoff needing to create conversations with Schmuel is not much different from us needing a way to get some insight.   

[ginny]

This is the wrong group to bring up the subject of talking to oneself, isn't it? hahaha

 I talk to myself all the time (supposedly it actually does you some good believe it or not), I just read that.  Here's one of many articles on it:  http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170428-why-talking-to-yourself-is-the-first-sign-of-success

and https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/08/smarter-living/benefits-of-talking-to-yourself-self-talk.html

 Agatha Christie plotted all her books that way, talked the parts  out loud to see if they sounded right (I've got a million reasons why I do it, but none that sound that good ). People talk to those who are deceased, they talk to God, they argue or prepare arguments or speeches  that they have to make, particularly if they are not combative by nature, to see how it sounds out loud  in hopes it's not too strong and they won't go too far.  They do it to get perspective, to sound out the possibilities. There are lots of reasons and studies.

I loved this one: All of us need to talk to someone who’s interesting, intelligent, knows us well and is on our side and that’s us,” she says. “We’re probably the most interesting person we know. Knowing ourselves and how we feel can help us improve.”

My best story is I forgot where I was once in a supermarket and made some comments out loud and turned the corner to encounter another conversation but there was nobody there either. We had a terrific laugh over that. Two crazy old women, but I digress. (And believe it or not that supermarket story  is echoed in the NY Times article quoted, so there are a lot of us out there). The funny thing is that a lot of people now have these phones and ear buds and are talking to somebody else but they look like they are talking to themselves. I guess if you get a fake earbud you HAVE  gone around the bend? hahahaa There's a LOT of it going on.

 I think what happened here is different.

Here the author has, because of her close relationship with Shmuel, presented a "conversation" with him to make a point she does not want to make herself: that the canonization of Jacob was a bit overdone. She can't say this from her own conclusions because the book came out at a time when  the Center people could see it, (next chapter) but nobody else is saying it, so she has to make Shmuel say it (thus interpreting from her own close knowledge of him, what he would say and allowing her to sort of hide behind him, which..... I....have a problem with). I really do.


In the first place. Shmuel always disagreed with her assertions and said so, so who knows what he really would have said?

In the second place, I am sorry he was treated so at the Center, but I think he enjoyed it, and she (unfortunately untimely deceased herself) still could take pleasure in the fact that her own book allowed him the respect in death she felt he deserved.

So in an effort to give her the benefit of the doubt (which is the reader's right, to  have doubts,  and to express them, too), I have read my eyeballs out and this morning found something about anthropological research that seems to allow that one  can  get so acquainted with the subject that they feel they what the subject would say, etc., and so in the interest of not getting stuck (as I have BEEN stuck) on this issue I can see her saying if he were here he'd say (so I don't have to) XXX and YYY and I can present another point of view which is mine but I don't want to say so. She didn't say that, but perhaps she meant it.

However it would be more honest to have said I think Shmuel might have demurred and said, XXX.  But SHE as sort of an  Anthropological Judge (I did see an allusion to a concern about what she might say about them in the next chapter) can't say it.

So when you look at it that way (and let's face it, it's not something one is going to live or die over), i guess you can put aside misgivings and give her that. But I do think it needs to be noted for what it really is.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, great links.  Makes us realize we are no different than others and it's actually good for us.  I remember when I was in high school I would goof around and say,  "I said to myself, and myself said to me." My friends would crack up and tease me asking, "So what did yourself have to say to you today?"  It was an ongoing joke.  I cracked up reading your supermarket chat with yourself.  I feel so silly when my hubby and I are in a store, I say something, turn around and he is no longer with me.  I'm standing there thinking how foolish I must look to others. 

I agree with your thoughts on Myerhoff's reason for placing the whole Schmuel created conversation in the story.  I have a real issue with it, and am sticking by it .  It was not her place as an anthropologist to create and quote someone who is already dead, but, in sticking by my calling foul ball... I too will give her the benefit of the doubt, as you point out is the readers's choice to do so.  I do understand how she felt so close she just couldn't let go of Schmuel.  My biggest issue I took with it was that she "injected" herself into the story.  An anthropologist is to base her findings on the material she gathers through her study of people, she needs to remain outside the story to give it veracity. 

Okay, I am off to take the two grands to Chuckie Cheese.  I've begun the next chapter and hope to finish it up after these two little munchkins go home.  There is NO concentrating when they are around, I must hear, "Nonni, Noni" a thousand times.  Not complaining, I will miss these days once they are too old to want to hang out at Nonni & Papa's house.