Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19

[bellamarie]

You’ve heard about it, everybody is reading it,  you can’t put it down,  but what do YOU make of Educated?  Mark your calendar for July 19 and join us in our new fun Mini Book Discussion Series this summer and help us discuss  Educated: A Memoir by Tara Westover,  an unbelievable and true story which will never be forgotten by anybody who reads it. Come tell us what you think!

How is a Mini  Discussion different from a regular one?

1.  We read the book in its entirety before the first day.

2. We've been using the  ALA "Index card" approach which has worked wonderfully. In essence everybody has been given a (virtual) "index card" which they then "write" on, giving a question they'd like to see discussed or their thoughts on the book or something in the book, just whatever they would like to talk about.  They email that to me (click on envelope under my name or request email address here) and if you don't have email, post your question initially and I'll save it as submitted and we'll put it like the others, in the rota,  and then on July 19 I will take the cards and each day we'll consider a new one submitted in alphabetical order of the person submitting.

We  address  THAT question or thought for an entire day. And we can also look back, after addressing that thought, to something said before.  I love this concept, and that everybody has their day.

Once the cards are finished, anybody can  bring  up anything they like about the book.

Should someone not want to submit a question or thought, no problem, you are as welcome as the flowers in July to participate any way you wish.


Everyone is welcome!



Good Afternoon all!  I must say, I slept like a baby.  This book troubled me the first time I read it, much like you mention Ginny, but the second time around, I was more or less depicting it, for discussion sake.  Things did not add up in places, and so yes, my book looks like confetti with all the different colors of post-it notes hanging from it.  My hubby laughed at me and said, "You have a lot of notes there."   

PLEASE, don't ever feel because I have a strong point of view on anything about this book, I am trying to sway anyone else's point or view, or argue with anyone.  According to my Ancestry.com results I got in my email this morning, I am 38% Italian descent, and we are very passionate people.  I love other's different points of view.  I was on the debate team in high school, my teachers loved my passion, and how I could prompt others to respond to valid points. This is where I learned to "agree to disagree."  This book has brought out emotions in me, some good, some not so good.  Love it or hate it has been mentioned several times, I can't say I feel either of those emotions, I see it more as sad, disgusting, raw, with a few glimpses of rays of light pressing through the cracks of this dark house.

I did read an interview that would help us with the house and area in Buck's Peak:

"What she calls off the grid in a compound was actually house on a farm with City Water and Power. (It's inside city limits not on top of the mountain.)" 

Keep in mind, her family had a television, telephone, computer, internet service, along with AOL.  She is not isolated, she is taking dance, piano lessons and has the lead role in the play Annie.

Ginny, 

Somehow, despite even being provided with proof she exists, without any education at all, she manages to take the ACT, pass it, go to Brigham Young University, graduate with honors, go to talk to an advisor and be advised to try for Cambridge, she can do university work and she qualifies, gets the scholarship and graduates from Cambridge University in the UK with a PhD.

AND write a bestselling book.

Surely THAT  is anybody's idea of incredible achievement! And she's so young.

'Where did this severely marginalized child  get the...the wherewithal, the inner strength, the dedication, the mind boggles...What enables some people to achieve as incredibly she has?'

Jonathan,

I find the answer in her using her experience and her reason.

Well, these are questions myself, and thousands of others have wondered after reading the book.

Ginny, 

Let's discuss  the soaring positive luminous thing out of all this which she downplays as if it were normal: her rise.  Her many achievements,  modestly downplayed as if a matter of fact everyday accomplishment. All this and STILL she rises.   How? What do you think allowed her to do this? What sort of characteristic or dedication?  How did she teach herself to READ? To do advanced math which she says is like a language in itself, I  loved that.

She says in the book, Tyler, her mother and even her father helped teach her, Math and  Trigonometry.  At the age of fifteen, she bought the ACT book and did not recognize symbols, and asked her mother,  "What is this?"  "Math says her Mother."  When her mother could not help her with Trig, she goes to her Dad, who apparently is way more educated than to be believed, because he solves the problem without even understanding the method to use.

What I felt was ironic throughout the whole schooling part of the book, is...she goes from not knowing how to read, not knowing Math, no public school education, to buying an ACT guidebook at the age of fifteen, shows up to take the ACT test and is confused as to the bubble fill in.  She fails the first ACT test, studies again and aces it, is accepted to Brigham Young University, then being accepted to study abroad at Cambridge at the age of seventeen, then it's on to Harvard, with a lot of traveling to London, Paris, Rome and even a quick trip to the Middle Eastern desert.   

We all know that it takes more than two short years to achieve these goals, all the while you are taking piano/dance classes, acting in plays, working endless hours in the junkyard, being injured, helping with the oils, assisting her mother with mid wife, and dating, unless you are Einstein.  Which we know she is NOT, because after graduating two of the finest colleges in the world, earning a PhD, it takes her six months to learn how to write a book, by listening to the New Yorker fiction podcast. 

I'm sorry, it's a lot for me to accept, an uneducated child, at the age of fifteen, living through the most traumatic experiences in her life, one after another, only two years, to accomplish what it takes a normal person who has gone through school teaching, years to learn.  I hate to be the Debbie Downer, pessimist, unbeliever, yet again, but my common sense tells me this just does not ring true, especially when she does not want to reveal she was home schooled, at her graduation, or, give any credit to the family members who in the book she says, helped educate her. 

She has indeed accomplished many goals in her short years of life, in spite of the trauma she grew up in.  I will give her that, but as my wise mother always told me, "Believe half of what you hear, and if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." 

This is indeed a best seller.  But I have to ask, were we sold a false bill of goods?   

Her family says, yes.  Tara does not mention her brother Shawn abusing her until she is a teenager.  She infers it could be, he is not comfortable with her growing up.  When you think about it, her story really does not cover her younger years much.  She says her older brothers seems to have grown up in a different house than she did, yet she takes liberty in the book to speak, think and feel for them.  Tyler encourage her to go to school, take the ACT test, go to college, move away and helped her learn math.  When he was home for a visit and Shawn was abusing Tara, he stopped it, gave her his car keys and told her to take his car and leave.  She refers to Shawn as her best friend until he begins the abuse.  One brother says in a review:

"She says that he's (Father) against doctors but half of my siblings were born in the hospital. We also were taken to the hospital for broken arms, broken legs, and hernia surgery, eye doctor appointments all were accidents not work related but swing off swing sets extra ... We went to the dentist regularly and all that needed braces had braces. We had the choice of going to school or being home schooled. Some of my siblings chose to go to school some of us were home schooled."


I am just so confused!  With the injuries Tara describes she and family members suffered from, the deformities, with no modern day medical treatment, only pathogenic oils to heal them, I could never imagine some of them still walking, being able to see, or even able to function in every day life, let alone go out in public, or continue to mid wife, travel to visit her in college, run a scrap yard business, or become a multi million dollar oil business, with all the head injuries, mental illness, brain damages etc.

The other point I would like to make is how Tara throughout the book gave the impression her father was the controller of everyone.  Yet, her mother sneaks behind his back, orders a telephone, buys a computer, gets internet service and connects to AOL.  For a man who wants to keep his family isolated, and control them, how on earth was this possible?  How did he allow Tara to take piano and dance lessons, perform in plays and date?  These are things NO controlling parent would allow.

I'm beginning to feel the lawyer is right, read it with a grain of salt.

We all want a good story of someone like Tara, to come out believable, and a survivor.  I am impressed with her achievements, those are undeniable. 

Ginny, I'm glad to see you went from,   

I could only stomach it once. I could not put it down, I was VERY glad to see her triumphant ending, but I also now can't pick it back  up and desperately want to say something positive about SOMETHING in it.

to:

Ginny,

I think it's this quality of the book which lifts it into the "Love it" category.
What do you think?

I'm not there yet, and don't see me ever getting to the "Love it" category.  A person's success story should not be at the expense of other family members pain and suffering, nor leave doubt with the readers, leaving gaps and unanswered questions. 

PatH.,  I am sure you are correct in saying, 

I doubt she tried to report Shawn's violence.  If she had, the family uproar it would cause would have been too major not to be part of the story.

Ginny, 

I hope there have been, I doubt any exist. What's her physical proof? She has no physical proof of her own issues, the dog disappeared,   and everybody says she is lying. Even now. And  as in so many domestic violence issues what can the police do if everybody says it didn't happen.  The headlines are full of why something was not reported at the time, it seems. Maybe the lesson here for all of us is report now repent later. 

This reality makes me sad, because we are talking 1990's - 2000s.  Whether she had proof or not, whether it was her word against the family's word.  I have attended workshops, and I know that you the reporter do NOT need proof to report, you only need to suspect it, to report it to the authorities, and Children Services, they take it from there.

If her accounts are true, then Shawn's violence without intervention of some type of medical or therapeutic help, will continue.  Mental illness does not go away, and abusers abuse for control.  In her interview she says: I hope for the sake of my brother’s wife and family that he’s mellowed and changed.

Hmm..... for an educated woman, with a PhD, and numerous therapy/counseling sessions behind her, what ever would make her think someone as violent like Shawn, would "mellow and change"?  I would have expected this educated woman to say, I hope Shawn is getting the proper medical treatment for what ever his condition is, that causing this violent, dangerous behaviors. 

Tara may have gotten "educated" but from my view, she has not learned yet how to apply her knowledge.  You don't write a book first, become a best seller, live abroad, become wealthy, do interviews, yet not look out for the children who are left back in Buck's Peak, who could suffer at the hands of an abuser.   

Report first, write the book later!

[ginny]

 To me, the book these many years later IS a report, of what happened then.

Hopefully now that she has exposed him, apparently the only one of the cast of characters to have that courage,  to the entire universe, Protective Services can be more proactive in this case: they've been alerted. The whole world is watching now. I hope it helps. I can't think what else she could  do about a present or future situation,  after all these years.

I'm just idly wondering why you put the word "educated"  in quotation marks when you refer to her?  I am not sure what putting it in quotations means?

[PatH]

Tara's education wasn't totally missing when she started on the path to taking the ACT.  We know she had been reading for years.  She had honed her skills by reading and rereading the Mormon books in the house.  She credited them with giving her the skill of persisting in getting the meaning out of something she didn't at first understand.  We know she could write, because she had been keeping journals for years.

Whether or not she had them before, she had to have acquired grammar and the ability to do expository writing by the time she got her advanced degrees.  It's needed for writing papers and theses.  Then, before getting very far with her book, she took six months to learn writing--fiction writing.  Why?  I think she needed to learn storytelling, the art of arranging a series of events so they make sense, have a point, and hold the reader's interest.  This doesn't help us to know if she is writing fact or fiction; you still need to tell your story properly even if it's true.

[bellamarie]

Ginny,

To me, the book these many years later IS a report, of what happened then.

This many years later, writing the book to assure the abuse is out in the open, for the authorities and Children Services to know NOW, does not help those who could have be abused by Shawn all the years she stayed quiet, while writing.  We know once the parents were alerted, it did nothing to change Shawn, because after the father called him and told him about what she alleged he did, he went and slaughtered a dog.  Seeing the book years later, as the report, seems a bit sad.  But it is, what it is. 

As for the quotations marks enclosing the word educated when describing Tara, I am Italian, I use my hands a lot when I talk, to emphasize something, I use the index finger and middle finger in a motion of quotation marks.  It's a habit, which I carry over in my typing, when emphasizing a word of importance, or quoting the person.  My CCD student picked up on that in class, and started doing it as well.  He made me aware of the fact, I do it quite often.  He would catch me and do it, and laugh, which in turned made me laugh and the rest of the class.   

PatH.,  Thank you, I think you are correct.  I went back and listened to her interview and she said, she spent about a year writing the book, and then a year revising it, about six months to learn how to write, because Academic writing does not translate.  I had assumed while in college having to write dissertations thesis, etc., it would have prepared her.  I agree, the art of arranging and putting a book together, would require certain knowledge and skills.

PatH.,

This doesn't help us to know if she is writing fact or fiction; you still need to tell your story properly even if it's true.

I agree, every author should meet the requirements of fiction, or non-fiction, when writing their story, and labeling it. Hers for me is murky. I felt the editors should have caught this, her family members certainly did, along with many people who wrote reviews, after reading the book.     

[ginny]

This many years later, writing the book to assure the abuse is out in the open, for the authorities and Children Services to know NOW, does not help those who could have be abused by Shawn all the years she stayed quiet, while writing.  We know once the parents were alerted, it did nothing to change Shawn, because after the father called him and told him about what she alleged he did, he went and slaughtered a dog.  Seeing the book years later, as the report, seems a bit sad.  But it is, what it is. 

Really?

This, after she did certainly as a child report it to her parents and was not believed, nor did anything about it. THEY in this thing and in all others, are the responsible adults , supposedly, neglectful as they are,  and are to blame, surely not the victim herself.

 This, after her parents witnessed  her brother's attack on his own wife and did nothing about it, no report to anybody,  but send her back, causes  me to think that perhaps here we need to look at those who then and now, (and I include all the other adults involved in this so called "family") daily today  turn their heads and allow any abusive behavior to continue because they know and have known and are witness,  but choose to ignore what he's done and is probably doing.

 Any  blame, any censure,  is theirs as so called responsible adults, certainly not the child victim of the past who did what any child would do, report it to her parents.

Surely.

[ginny]

The remark of the brother who said that they all had the choice of going to school or not is obviously not true, speaking for her when she describes herself, sadly watching the school bus go by as a child. They  appear to be spinning  like mad, trying to save face.

 Dad's 1000 buried gallons of gas is just another in a long series of pitiful and avoidable  accidents waiting to happen, he needs to use that computer to look up the storage life of gasoline with and without STABIL,  but it's too late for the gas,  actually,  and hopefully the authorities will be contacting him first. (What sort of driving does he hope to do anyway in the End Times?) If he watched that TV he would see such fellow survivalists as the...is it Mountain Men... drive a truck propelled with  wood and a fire, forget the gas).

Yes,  Dad irritates me no end and I swore I would never say another thing about them.

And of course any responsible reader knows that none of us is perfect, we all try the best we can, we all make and have made  mistakes and none of  us want to see them splayed across headlines all over the world, judge not, what a frightening book this is to read for what it does to the reader.

I don't think there will ever be another like it, I really don't, it's broken the mold. 

And this is apropos of nothing but I  have had the feeling the entire book, actually, and it grew very strong toward the end, that she was withholding something about Dad. I felt it getting closer and closer and I thought I was reading things into it but now I'm not so sure.

[ginny]

I've had to reexamine what I know about learning to read, too,  in the face of what I'm reading here and in the book. I find myself reexamining a lot of educational theory lately.

  Toward that end I've spent quite a lot of time looking at the Book of Mormon since that's what she struggled over. I realize Educated  is not about Mormonism but that was a text she used, so I wanted to know more about it, including reading the history of it, the many branches and sects, and the Book of Mormon itself.

I really had no  idea what it was. So that has been a valuable learning experience.


 So many topics left to explore, the book is a kaleidoscope of them.

--education. I had hoped we could talk a bit about what "education" means to us personally and what it may be.  Bill Gates in his review of the book talks about always having  enjoying  teaching himself, and I've just come from a conference where a lot of new ideas are spinning like tops about how we learn. Math instruction alone has completely changed.  It's AMAZING what kids are doing in school now.

--What do you remember most fondly from your own educational experiences? What is the worst experience you recall? What did each contribute or detract from your own learning?

 I would love to explore some of the new theories, to try to understand them. What do we mean by an educated person? What causes this Ignorance that we're told we'll always have with us? We are all ignorant in some things but Ignorance with a capital I seems to have its own cult.

--homeschooling. This one is more volatile than some of Dad's projects so I guess it's better left alone.

Since the mini discussion,  sort of like a face to face one,  seems to depend on topics du jour (in a face to face one you'd have one topic for every person present) here i are a couple  of choices or suggest your  own:

---They say we learn something from every book we read, no matter how bad or good: what have YOU learned from this one?

--What do you remember most fondly from your own educational experiences? What is the worst experience you recall? What did each contribute or detract from your own learning?

---Her name: Tara. Why Tara? Is there any irony in it, given the story?

[bellamarie]

Ginny 

This, after she did certainly as a child report it to her parents and was not believed, nor did anything about it. THEY in this thing and in all others, are the responsible adults , supposedly, neglectful as they are,  and are to blame, surely not the victim herself.

Really?

Yes, Really, she is NOT a child any longer, as she is writing this book.  Yes, she is the victim at the age of fifteen, but when she is in college, and beyond, she is an adult writing this book. It took her 2 years to write it, then it went to the publisher, and editors, and yet no one bothers to report anything, until the book speaks about it to the world?   

As a child, Tara did what she could do, as an adult, who has gone through counseling, is now away from the house and abuse, and has gone through college, she did not feel the necessity to report, to protect Shawn's wife, or children, or anyone else who could have suffered at the hands of Shawn.  Instead she decides to write a book about it.

You keep referring to Tara as a child,  I am seeing her for what she is at the time she is writing this book, an adult, with adult responsibilities. 

In her own words in her video interview when asked about authorities getting involved, she says: 
"As with a lot of things it's good to look inward and think about the people we know that we are inadvertently maybe hurting by keeping silent." 

She acknowledges knowing, yet then she uses the word maybe hurting.  So it seems she is trying to not accept here the actual hurt that could still be happening.  Is this her way of excusing NOT reporting it to authorities or Children Services?  If what she says is true, and Shawn is as violent as she describes, possibly either mental issues or other causes for this violence, how could she say, maybe?  An abuser does not stop, they just find other victims.  She saw this with her own eyes.  I do believe Shawn is, and could still be, this violent, and this book maybe, will bring a more watchful eye on this entire family of child abusers, whether they directly or indirectly are involved.

Telling her parents as a teenager, and not being believed, feeling the parents are part of the cover up, I understand how she at that age, would not even consider, involving any one outside the home.  But.... I am speaking of her as an adult, during college years, and while writing the book.

We are not going to come to any agreement on this, so as I have learned, it is time to agree to disagree on this, and move on. 

Ginny,

They  appear to be spinning  like mad, trying to save face.

I get the sense, every single person in this Westover family, has spun things for their own narrative, protection, personal reasons, and monetary gain, including Tara. 

This book is not by far the worst ever written, and will not be the last, sad to say. 
Read Where The Crawdads Sing, or Before We Were Yours,  but then maybe after Educated, I would say don't bother.  I read both books prior to Educated.  I had NO idea Educated dealt with this type of theme, or I would have passed on it.  Again, I like many readers was taken in by the cover.  I guess it's true when they say, Don't judge a book by it's cover.  I did not read the excerpts or reviews of Educated, because I did not want to be swayed before opening the book.  That was my mistake.

I found it interesting in this same interview when Tara is asked about the Mormon religion, she says, "I am not a practicing Mormon, but I have very warm feelings toward Mormonism.  My family isn't really representative of Mormonism.  Religion is a character in the story, but it's not the whole story and it isn't a causal factor that determined the way we lived.   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYg_gp0JPc

Ginny, like you, I know next to nothing about the Mormon faith, but I can tell you while reading this book I sensed this family, in their actions and beliefs, had nothing to do with Mormonism.  I'm glad Tara's first words in the book under Author's Note are: 

This STORY IS NOT ABOUT MORMONISM.  NEITHER IS IT ABOUT any other form of religious belief.

I had to giggle when I read this in your post: 

(I still don't know what the "End Times" are. But apparently you can drive when they  come.)

Anyone who has read Revelations, or has any kind of knowledge about the teaching of The End of Times, should know a car, plane, train, or any other form of transportation is not going to help you.  The father's stock piling of food, medical supplies and fuel, surely shows you his radical unstable thinking. For those of us who follow an organized religious faith, knows Noah was instructed to build the Ark.  I didn't hear anything in this book that says, God spoke to Mr. Westover and told him to stock pile these things, and have your fuel ready. Ughh...   



 

[PatH]

Ginny, your remarks lead me to talk about two related things that I feel are crucial to Tara's story: the possible change in family life over the years, and Tara's father's mental state.

Tara was the youngest of seven; there was a fair span of years in the children's ages, and I think the family life changed over the years, getting more and more eccentric as time went on.  The older children didn't have the same kind of childhood as she did.  This was probably the result of her father's growing mental instability.  He certainly seems pretty disturbed now, but the problems, untreated, very likely have grown worse.  By the time Tara was ready, he had grown much more rigid.  She talks in one of the interviews of her early childhood being quite happy.

The father's mental state is central to the story, and I think you're right, she's holding something back.  In one of the interviews, she mentions her father having a blind spot in recognizing risk and danger in some circumstances--he genuinely didn't see the risks of the way the was using powerful machinery in the junkyard, for himself too, not just for his children.  That's pretty extreme.  I'd like to know more, but that won't happen.  Tara diagnoses bipolar disorder, and he's pretty paranoid, but I bet there's more.

[bellamarie]

PatH.,  I agree, I think the father's issues, what ever they are, became more prevalent with age. My daughter's bipolar disorder did not manifest until she was twenty-five years old.  I, her mother, did not know anything about this mental disorder, until her doctors in the psychiatric ward diagnosed her, when her husband took her to the emergency room, because she had a complete mental break down.  They were living in Georgia, we were here in Ohio.  We flew down immediately and brought her back to Ohio for medical care, and treatment. It is managed today, twenty years later with medication.  After doing a ton of research on bipolar disorder, I learned the gene can stay dormant, until or unless a person with the gene has some traumatic incident in their life to cause it to manifest.  Also, it is more prevalent in the maternal gene, yet the paternal gene also carries it.  Hormones can also factor into the manifestation, which is why we can see it manifest in teenagers.  Violence and paranoia is symptomatic with bipolar, and schizophrenia can also accompany those with bipolar.  My daughter even on medication struggles with paranoia.   

Mental illness is genetic, so it stands to reasoning, if the father has any type of mental issues, and I suspect he does, Shawn's behavior sure does seem it could be due to some type of mental disorder as well.  Just to be precise, Tara did not at any time diagnose, her father with bipolar disorder.  She mentions in the book while talking to her counselors, describing his behaviors, the counselor suggested it could be bipolar.  Tara is not a doctor of psychiatry or any other medical field, she has a PhD in History.  Because the father will never go to a doctor, I would guess he will never be properly diagnosed. 

[Jonathan]

From Ginny...'what a frightening book this is to read for what it does to the reader.

I don't think there will ever be another like it, I really don't, it's broken the mold.'

Doesn't there seem to be something confessional about it. It's certainly far more than a 'report'.

Struggling with the Book of Mormon? Wasn't that done with the hope of understanding her father? Her education is an overwhelming thing, but it began with: 'I had never heard of the Holocaust. I had never heard of mental illness.'
 
She says so many nice things about her father. She hopes to see him in heaven.   

This about a man who had said to his own mother: "You're a knowing participant in the plans of Satan.' (p33)

[bellamarie]

I am just not understanding why Tara has such polar opposite feelings about her father.  In her interviews, you would not think he has done anything wrong.  She almost sugar coats, and excuses his actions.  I don't think there is anything more she is hiding, this book is as someone mentioned like her confessional, and I think she got it all out.

[ginny]

 Bellamarie,


You keep referring to Tara as a child,

According to the state of Utah where she lived:

Utah CodePage 1Chapter 12Utah Child Support ActPart 1General Provisions78B-12-101 Title.

       (7) "Child" means:(a) a son or daughter under the age of 18 years who is not otherwise emancipated, self-supporting, married, or a member of the armed forces of the United States;(b) a son or daughter over the age of 18 years, while enrolled in high school during the normal and expected year of graduation and not otherwise emancipated, self-supporting, married, or a member of the armed forces of the United States.


She was a child, legally, until she turned 18.


As a child, Tara did what she could do, as an adult, who has gone through counseling, is now away from the house and abuse, and has gone through college, she did not feel the necessity to report, to protect Shawn's wife, or children, or anyone else who could have suffered at the hands of Shawn.  Instead she decides to write a book about it.. 

She did not write a book about Shawn.   She wrote it about herself.

She is the victim here.   What about Audrey?  She's  older than the author.  Why didn't she report? Write a book?  How about Mom n Dad, especially since Mom admits why she did not do anything?  Parenting assumes responsible adults and that responsibility for one's children  means taking responsibility, and certainly not pushing it off on the victim for Pete's sake, which Dad tried to do with Shawn.  THEY, the  so called "responsible adults" who were burdened morally with doing something about this did nothing. This is the same thing that inspired the Me Too Movement and we can see why.

Tara is the messenger, let's not  kill the messenger.

[ginny]

What might Dad do with a car at the End Times? Well according to the information I read this morning on the main sect of Mormonism, and there are many,  it's believed by them that there will be a bit of time between the Second Coming and the Last Judgment, (or something like that, there's to be some time,) regardless of what Revelations says, they have their own Scriptures,  and in this time  one can repent  or whatever. So during that time I guess Dad and his guns can choose what to do but he won't do it on that gasoline.

[ginny]

Pat, that's the impression I got, too, things were different in that family but no two children have the same parents or so they say. This time it seems to have been carried to extremes.

 I do, too,  think she's holding something back, I've felt it coming the entire book, but I doubted myself. I have to say I'm glad I'm out from under his spell,  just reading his remarks again is kind of disturbing. What it must have taken for her  to finally get out . (If she HAS, I worry these excuses she makes for him and her not condemning him publicly  are also evidence  to there being more than has been revealed. Why she does this I have no idea. Perhaps she's not as estranged as we would hope, and this is a symptom of it?)

Jonathan, did he really say that to his own mother? I can't find it in the Kindle (the pagination is different)  but I now seem to remember the comparison of the two grandmothers, how oppressive it seems all over again. It's just one shock after another, the mind reels, you grab on what you can make sense of:  we'll all see something different. A perfect read for a book discussion.   And it's a heck of a book and very well written.

She's the messenger here but not of bad tidings, of good tidings, she escaped and triumphed. At a cost. She must stay strong and find the strength to not waver, to do that would be the last betrayal of that girl who was abused and betrayed  with no protection offered.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, I thought I have made myself clear, since I have said numerous times...I am only speaking of Tara reporting to protect others from Shawn, after college, and while she was writing the book, at that time she is an adult. 

Any or all family members who were adults, should have reported the abuse.  I am not excluding any of them.  They were, and still seem to be in denial, or dependent upon their parents for their income/jobs, and yes the others who do not live in Buck's Peak, and do not depend on the family business, chose not to get involved where the authorities were concerned as well. But, they also did not choose to write a book about it.  Tara deciding to write the book to inform the world of the abuse, should have thought to report it, to protect Shawn's wife, kids and others from his violence, as an adult.

By Tara's own words, in her interview, she is aware of what she should have done, and chose not to do.  I think she still in some way wants to protect her family, even though she has written this book, exposing them.

Maybe not reporting and involving the authorities, or Children Services, she feels it kept the door open for her to someday return home.  This would also explain why she refuses to condemn her father publicly in her interviews.  This could be why some feel she is not saying something, holding back.... hope beyond hope, to be brought back into the family fold, in spite of the dysfunction and abuse. 

Ginny,

She must stay strong and find the strength to not waver, to do that would be the last betrayal of that girl who was abused and betrayed  with no protection offered

I agree, but I suspect like Jonathan said early on:

I see the book as an attempt at reconciliation with her father and the rest of the family. Even with that sadistic brother, Shawn. Tara would like to go home to her beloved Buck's Peak.

This did not make sense to me at the time, but it does now. 






 

[ginny]

 Yes, you've been perfectly clear, at least 3 times. I am not sure that what I am saying is also being regarded, however, but no matter. 

My position, also said several times,  is I disagree with blaming the victim, in any way.

It's OK, though, for us to have opposing views, makes for a good discussion and this has been one.

 Let's move on?

[ginny]

Here are three questions for tomorrow that I don't  know the answer to, the first two  are from the New York Times:

1.  “Educated” starts with an epigraph from Virginia Woolf: “The past is beautiful because one never realizes an emotion at the time. It expands later, and thus we don’t have complete emotions about the present, only the past.” What do you think Woolf meant by this? Why do you think Tara Westover chose to begin her memoir this way?

2.We are also introduced early in the book to the standoff at Ruby Ridge, a 1992 gunfight between F.B.I. agents and United States marshals and a heavily armed family on an isolated homestead. How does this incident cast a shadow over the Westover parents and children, and the survivalism that characterizes their upbringing?

-----I have to admit on this last one that I did not remember Ruby Ridge, and I had to ask at lunch yesterday  what the details were.  I did not know that Timothy McVeigh (sp) chose this as his reason for the bombing in Oklahoma City, either.  I am unclear on this issue and why it seemed to set off these unstable people so I am very interested in what you all might  have  to add to the details or explanations of what happened and why to this. It seems to be important or is it?

3. And here's a bonus question based on what Jonathan said a bit back: "She has in fact become an Illuminati, that bugbear of her father's tortured mind, which depends on revelation."

That's a clever  turn of phrase, Jonathan, nicely done.

But on the real Illuminati, I  thought I knew what the Illuminati were, but now I am not so sure. What ARE the Illuminati,   and why is Dad so afraid of them?

[Jonathan]

What a dazzling discussion. So many interesting things being said. And, this one from Bellamarie, is a gem:

'I would guess he will never be properly  diagnosed.'

Shucks, I think Tara is leaving that to the reader. The bipolar diagnosis is a cop out, I believe, to spare the church. Dad spends too much time studying the scriptures. His strange mental state follows his religious experience at age thirty or thereabouts.

As for putting the children in harm's way as Pat has pointed out:

'In one of the interviews, she mentions her father having a blind spot in recognizing risk and danger in some circumstances--he genuinely didn't see the risks of the way the was using powerful machinery in the junkyard, for himself too, not just for his children...'

No, indeed. He saw it as an opportunity to see guardian angels hovering about. And to convince the kids of this heavenly protection.

I believe the sympathy of the nation has been aroused. Why couldn't the president  have the whole family to dinner at the White House, and convinve them of the  well-intentioned government.

I don't see Shawn as a bipolar victim. He was taking his cue from Dad. Tara is the black sheep.

[Jonathan]

What are the Illuminati?

By sheer luck I came across the answer just recently in a book by Niall Ferguson, the historian' The Square and the Tower. Chapter I is 'The Mystery of the Illuminati.'

[PatH]

End the suspense, Jonathan.  What are they?

[ginny]

And why would they have any interest whatsoever in a  scrapyard owner in Utah?

[ginny]

I was thinking the other day about the painful scenes when Dad comes to visit his daughter or shouts in restaurants and little by little her eyes are opened, she becomes enlightened (or educated, if you will),   to the fact that he  perhaps is not normal. Whatever normal is, her family as a whole is WAY off the beam. Or I hope it is.

This sort of seeing reality about parents as a person instead of the all powerful parent, as a person  grows up,  is normal, supposedly every  person goes through seeing their parents from godlike to just ordinary people with flaws. She experienced this suddenly when still young  (instead of having to be in her 50's or 60's) in college,  by seeing him presenting himself in an unfavorable way,  out of his habitat in comparison to other people.

 In some ways, this family, to me,  IS a cult. Their peculiar behavior, the clicking, how eerie is that, that entire scene when Dad demands agreement and the mother in anxiety immediately starts that clicking and flapping of fingers that...eerie...behavior....What is that?

You'd think it was the Middle Ages.  These poor people, this is the only protection, the only strength they have, manifested in these odd ticks and fears and backpacks ready... apparently  they lack any other paths, and again is this due to Ignorance? Versus Education? I think it is. Is the root of it Dad? I think it is.  All they can do, they have no other resource,  is to fall back on this sort of...I don't know what to call it....  We are not living in the 1600's, and neither are they. Or are we?

 How is this different from a Cult?

[ginny]

Oh wait, I forget, they are millionaires now, but it seems the Illuminati were interested in them before that. Is it now more interested in them?


Julius Caesar, living before Christianity existed, considered a worthy pagan, with the Church definition of pagan,  (he was one of the 9 Worthies in the Middle Ages, a time to which we seem to have slipped back in this discussion) said something interesting once. He said that sometimes the gods allow a man to exult in wrong success so that when the end comes the contrast of his downfall is then  even more painful to him.

He said this to a German War Lord who would not listen to him and should have because he proved prophetic in that case.  I don't know why that comes to mind here, except that perhaps those millions and the reputation of this family have  just suffered a major blow.  From the least of them or so they seemed to think, who finally found her own voice.

What, one wonders, will they learn from it? What should they learn from it?

 (I sincerely doubt Caesar himself was surprised by his own assassination, however, I think he anticipated it), but that's another story.

[PatH]

I finally looked up Illuminati.  They were originally a Bavarian secret society, founded in the late 1700s, perhaps vaguely allied with the masons.  Their purpose wasn't clear to me, and they didn't last long, but since then other organizations have claimed to be their successors, and supposed Illuminati have been blamed in many different conspiracy theories.  They are supposed to have planted members in positions of power to accomplish whatever (take over the world? destroy religion?).

[PatH]

How is this different from a cult?  My flippant reply would be, it's too small.  Some of those odd beliefs do seem cult-like, or magical.  I don't think they're original to the Westovers.

This has sparked my rant about herbal type remedies.  There are plenty of natural or herbal remedies that work, and do what they are claimed to do.  But there are even more that don't, or have dangerous side effects.  And the industry of supplying these products is poorly regulated.  They are often unclean, or impure, or not the material they are said to be, or spiked with something dangerous to produce the claimed effect.  And lots of them simply don't work.  If you are careful with your wording in what you claim, you aren't even breaking any regulations.  So you have to be careful whose remedies you buy.

To do her justice, I'm betting that the Westover essential oils are properly prepared, and are the materials they claim.  But I doubt if they work.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, what does your book tell you about the Illuminati?

I found this:

il·lu·mi·na·ti
/iˌlo͞oməˈnädē/
 
noun
people claiming to possess special enlightenment or knowledge of something.
"some mysterious standard known only to the illuminati of the organization"
a sect of 16th-century Spanish heretics who claimed special religious enlightenment.
noun: Illuminatus; plural proper noun: Illuminati
a Bavarian secret society founded in 1776, organized like the Freemasons.
noun: Illuminati

Illuminati
An ancient, disbanded organization that people claim to be behind an ongoing conspiracy. What people claim that they are behind today is something that they were actually against back when they existed. Many people believe that the Illuminati is represented by a triangle with an eye in the center, known as the all-seeing eye. Conspiracy theories are sometimes tied to this eye, but their real symbol is actually an owl.

PatH.,  I am with you, I think it does sound cult like. Why when reading this book I feel like this is taking place in 17th Century vs the present 21st Century.  More feel of fiction for me.   

Yes, herbs can be helpful, but they can also be dangerous.  People could have extreme reactions to natural herbs, due to allergies, asthma, etc.  I have a couple of friends who sell essential oils, and are sick all the time, but claim they are helpful.  I brought some peonies in my house this Spring, and the smell of them gave me the worst head ache, I had to take them outside.  I took an appetite suppressant with all natural herbs in the ingredients and experienced side effect.  My doctor informed me some of those natural herbs can cause heart palpation, and trouble with breathing.  The way Tara describes her mother administering these oils to friends, family and total strangers without her knowing their medical history is extremely dangerous and irresponsible.  It's incredible they are now a multi million dollar business.  According to her brother in a review, they are no where near worth that much.

I found this article to be very interesting.  I feel this psychologist's view are in sync with mine after reading the book.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/millennial-media/201804/psychologists-take-tara-westovers-memoir-educated

   

[bellamarie]

I happened to watch yet another one of Tara's video interviews.  In this one, she is very much different than in a prior on.  In this interview she seems older, more confident, more intelligent, more playful, and self assured. She has changed her hair color to blonde with highlights, wears a stylish black leather jacket, and I get the sense she is comfortable in her own skin, at last.

There are some very good topics covered, and interesting answers she gives.  Just a few things that stuck out to me:

1.  Right off she includes Yale in the colleges she attended, and the interviewer laughs at her for mentioning Yale, saying, "By the way Yale would be happy to claim you."

2.  "If you don't have money your whole brain is occupied in getting it.  Getting enough to get through the next day, the next week.

3.  She also mentions the Bishop writing her the Fourteen Hundred dollar check to help her with her root canal. She does not say she refused it.  We know in the book she says she did refuse to take it from him, she got the grant for Four thousand- five hundred dollars and tried to give back the amount she didn't need, and was told that was her allowed amount from the program.

4.  "I never had positive interaction with the government until I got a Pell grant, I was twenty.  The first time that I thought, oh it does useful things sometimes. This is actually good." She mentions her father saying, "God would be angry with you if you took money from the government."

5.     I was a terrible student in the sense I didn't learn much until I was somewhat financially secure."

6.  She would go back to Idaho twice a year.

7.  She mentions the Salem Witch Trials, breaking of charity. 

8.  We have to take the condescension out of education. We've allowed education to become an identity. We have allowed our education to putrefy into arrogance.  Education should change you.
I don't necessarily blame them (parents) for feeling their kid will go off and become contemptuous of them.

9.  When you add that contempt to it (education), it becomes a different animal  Education is not so much a state of certainty, than it is a process of inquiry.  Education is maybe less about knowing more than someone, and maybe knowing someone. 

10.  The Pencil image on the book cover is dual:  The mountain, and Story of My Life & Story of My Education. 

11.  And mentions the John Dewey quote:  I believe finally, that education must be conceived as a continuing reconstruction of experience: that the process and the goal of education are one and the same thing.

12.  Asked, Do you feel Mormon?  "I feel super Mormon when I am not talking to other Mormons."

13.  Science and technology are trying to tell us who we are.  We are a child of God.

14.  "I do not want to be chained to the book the rest of my life.  It can go off by it's self."

15. End with singing a very beautiful church hymn, How Great Thou Art.

She did mention she did not set out to write this book, including her family, it was suppose to be about her path to education, but realized she couldn't write it without including the family.  She tried to respect their privacy, by not including any pictures, or parts of any sexual nature. 

Take that for what it is worth.  Makes me wonder if what is left out, is what some of you suspect she is not saying.  Her leaving some things out, could be her saving grace, and the reason the family has not taken any further steps so far in court. I think she is purposefully staying away from talking about her parents and siblings under a court order.  JMO.

I enjoyed this interview over all the others I have seen, but it did not change my views on 
anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2XWYT-t47E

[PatH]

Thanks for finding that article, Bellamarie.  It's really good to have the take of a professional.  I agree, a lot of what she says is in sync with my feelings.

Tara has used her education as the tool to shape herself int her own person, what she wants to be, not simply the product of her horrendous childhood.  But she's far from done.  She's still a wounded person, not completely whole or healed.

[ginny]

or parts of any sexual nature  Yep, that's it, I think, the other unmentioned elephant in the living room.  Good interview, thank you, and touching on the nature of education which I had  hoped to talk about if possible.

Good point on the herbs, Pat.  I know a lot of people espouse them, some of them here on SeniorLearn.  I had posted and then erased voodoo from my earlier post about the eerie  waving and clicking fingers, and probably should leave it out now.  I think that if you're peddling herbs you should keep religious claims out of it, and as bellamarie says be sure your ingredients aren't causing harm. First do no harm, but these are not medical people.

 Pat, on  the Cult, the difference being numbers, I laughed out loud, you are so droll. However this quote from the website Patheos (I have no idea why) says, "LaRee, the matriarch of seven children and 32 grandchildren, only wanted money enough to buy food, fuel, and maybe a bomb shelter."

Just only wanted enough for food, fuel and a bomb shelter, that's all. Perhaps if some of them actually applied themselves to...I just will NOT say it.

(I have begun to hate the word "matriarch," and "patriarch," as if this were the 1800's, just hate them both.)

Let's see 32 grandchildren, 7 children, 2 nutso grandparents and voila:  that's 41 people. How many people DOES it take to make a cult? Of course some of those are innocent children.

(That may be a misprint, I have seen 12 in the past and unless  they are multiplying like lemmings 12 is more likely) but at 32???

I had a lovely lunch with two friends today who had both read the book, one of whom said it was horrific and the other said it is a cult. hahaha

Here's a quote from the Bill Gates interview which was really great, again on the nature of education:

"I was especially interested to hear her take on polarization in America. Although it’s not a political book, Educated touches on a number of the divides in our country: red states versus blue states, rural versus urban, college-educated versus not. Since she’s spent her whole life moving between these worlds, I asked Tara what she thought. She told me she was disappointed in what she called the “breaking of charity”—an idea that comes from the Salem witch trials and refers to the moment when two members of the same group break apart and become different tribes."

The Breaking of Charity, have you heard of it? What  has it to do with Salem Witch Trials or the book?

Well, what have we not covered?  She mentions cleanliness, the smell, and personal habits (not washing hands after the toilet) which her roommates hated. She mentions her mother a lot, we haven't looked at her at all. Should we?

Would we say  her success is  a case of Nature vs Nurture, or is  there more of a connection than we think?

Dad in one of those interviews says his homeschooling couldn't have been all that bad as 3 of his children have PhD's. So he's taking credit for this?  We have heard his opinion of "book larnin," and  he  practically forced one of them, one of the older boys into one so he could save the world or something, a religious duty or burden. I guess there are worse reasons to succeed. Was that Richard?

Who do you think should have the credit for their success? Why?

Why  did she not know about the Holocaust or the Civil Rights Movement? They have a TV.

What have we not touched on that you'd like to bring  up or discuss?





 

[bellamarie]

Who do you think should have the credit for their success? Why?

I think just like every successful person, there are many people along the way to help them in becoming successful. Even with the good, the bad and the ugly of this family, I don't think they should be denied their part in helping Tara.  Let's just set the obvious abuse, neglect etc., aside, and look at those who were there to help her on this journey of education, to earning her PhD.

Homeschooling must be acknowledged. 
Her mother did take the time to teach her.
Her father gave her money to help her with college, and helped her with trigonometry. 
Her brother Tyler helped her with algebra, encouraged her take the ACT, told her to go to college.  When Shawn was abusing her, Tyler gave her his car keys and told her to leave.
Bishop helped her with filling out Pell Grants, and gave her a check for $1,500.  He listened to her, and helped her talk through her issues.
Her Professors at Cambridge and Harvard were there for her.
Her brother Richard, introduced her to music, which is why she said she decided to even go to college.
Drew was there for her, actually got her to take a pill to help with her pain, helped her when she got the emails and threats.
Her piano and dance teachers along with those who helped her with the plays.
Charles had a small part, before he got spooked off.

Who else can you think of who helped her along the way? 

I think we can't ever take full credit for our successes if life, and we should never refuse to acknowledge those who did help, little or great.  She gives herself the credit, and of course without her hard work, dedication and commitment, she could not have accomplished her goals.  But no one can do it alone.

[Jonathan]

I'm in the process of changing my thinking about this book. Shocking, isn't it? Even the psychologist despairs of understanging her. Tara turned herself into  an artist after taking Virgiinia Woolf's advice. Expand on your past experience.

I can't help you on the Illuminati mystery. Too complex. But it was and still is considered by some in the U.S. as the ultimate conspiricy. It's mentioned a dozen times in the book and seems to have been constantly on Dad's mind. Pages 33, 36.42,43,47,48,61,202, and 210.

'If  the Government was after Randy Weaver, surely it must also be after Gene Westover, who'd been holding the front line in the war with the Illuminati for years.' p210

The government was infested with Illuminati, including the president. And there were others. I wonder where Gene was getting it. He may have been deluded. That doesn't make him bipolar.

It seems to me that Tara must be working on a sequel. She's certainly preparing the world for it.

[ginny]

GREAT points, All!

Thank you for the Woolf insight, Jonathan,  I was quite struck by that as a quote in the beginning but wasn't sure I caught the drift. She's over my head in that one, great job!

Which way are  you changing your mind, Jonathan? From what to what about the book?

Wonderful point, too on the sequel. What do you all think will happen? Where will she go after such early incredible success? Only  up, I think. How about Dad? I can see only one end here.

On the cop out thing with Dad and the bi polar, I think the family uses a LOT of cop-outs and excuses and I suddenly see where she gets it, it's a family trait, try to excuse the .....horror you see around you, with good and bad rationales. A lot of families, a LOT, do the exact same thing to perpetuate their dysfunction.

I personally know a family making excuses for a member because of a car wreck and injury to the he head.  Except there's another family  member who remembers back before the wreck and says this person was like that, then, too. Oops.

Perhaps "Gene" found the world too much and retreated into excuses himself. I don't know. But I do know that "Shawn" did not get his ideas from a vacuum, you can see that in how Dad handled the first reported incident: laughs, explanations about women being out of place,  and a brewsky or two. With Shawn.  Yeah, there are several elephants in this living room.

more..

[ginny]

Bellamarie, great points, we learn something from everybody we encounter. On this one, however: 

Her mother did take the time to teach her.   Not homeschooling.  She says so flatly in one of the  video  links I put up here in an interview (with blond hair) when asked directly (as she skirts around it in the book) what homeschooling she received from her mother,  that her mother by the time she came along was too busy with the Oils and 7 children (or something like that, it's there for anybody to see) to do any homeschooling.

And apparently too busy to teach the child anything about hygiene, health,  and personal cleanliness, either,  as witness to the others in college and afterwards  who encountered her, at her own admission.

So Mom, while I'm sure providing support in some things and instruction in some things, apparently skipped these two major  issues. And of course SHE is bottling oils for health.

It reminds me of a story my mother told me, one of many.  She had been a first grade teacher and her first job was in a very rough area.  That area now has a very vocal and proud constituency so I won't name it but in the 40's it was legend and not in a good way.  She was appalled to find the children came to school so dirty, with matted hair,  and in filthy clothes.  They had never seen a toothbrush and did not know what soap was. So she bought them all toothbrushes and soap and they had happy games in class, of using them  and she sent them home, and looked forward to the first Parent's Night.

In came a very angry mother,  who returned the toothbrush and soap saying "I send my child to school for you to larn her, not to smell her."

It's incomprehensible to me the neglect shown in the Westover household, the sheer criminal neglect,  but somehow this young woman has risen  like a  phoenix.

I've never forgotten my mother's story. And it's not limited to the 40's.  I have a friend who did the same thing in 2016 but the toothbrushes and soap stayed at school and the game was played there as best it could be soap wise every day. With song.

We don't know, most of us living in this wonderful country in 2019,  the way a LOT of people live in the US,  but this book exposes one of the undersides of...what? Criminal neglect. That's what I call it. On many fronts.

The only thing protecting them is the isolation, now exposed.

So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this? I've never read anything like it.

Can anything good come of the book?

What can you see some of the positive things  or changes the book might produce?

[ginny]

And since we seem to be winding down in topics to explore, let's take a day or two (I have eye surgery tomorrow, a lens implant,  so I won't be here till Friday) but let's take a moment or two for some reviews, too.


What one word for you sums up the book?

What one word sums up your personal reaction to the book?

What one word sums up what you will do with the knowledge you gained from reading the book?

How many stars would you give the book if you were rating it, and why?

[Jonathan]

Good luck with your eye surgery, Ginny. Perhaps a pause in the discussion would be a good thing. I like your questions:

'So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this? I've never read anything like it.'

Who could have guessed?  The baby in the family, growing up in beautiful Idaho. Gets a PhD in history  and sets out to write some history of her own. Reads Virginia Woolf and her history turns into a literary success. It's the honesty of her writing that has surprised everybody.

[PatH]

There's one subject that I didn't bring up because it didn't fit into the lively discussion: Tara as a historian.  What made her choose that as a major?  It must have been very strange to find whole big chunks of the past she didn't know existed. Was that what did it? Wanting to know it all at last?  Anyway, she throws herself into it.  She wonders about historians.  When she realizes how scanty our information is about some things, she wonders how they feel about basing their guesses on such small evidence.  Is this how history is made?

Then she writes her thesis, on what is, to her at least, a new topic in how some thinkers and religions reacted to a human problem.  And when she hands it in, she thinks again of the question. "Who makes history?". But this time the answer is a surprising "I do".

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, Like the lawyer said, I advise you and all readers to,

"Take the book with a grain of salt." 

There is indeed fiction in the book.  And like I said before, I, the reader personally feel like I have been sold a false bill of goods.  She has indeed wrote history, but unlike most historians, I feel hers is a bit distorted. 

Tara contradicts herself in the book and in her interviews, as far as I am concerned.  She said this book was encouraged by her professors, because "I had this kind of unusual educational experience, it was not suppose to be about her family and that she tried to respect their privacy. Yet, She EXPOSED the entire family, and spoke, thought and felt for them through her imagination, right down to the birth of Shawn's son, and his conditions. I don't believe she intended to not include the family.  That's just me.  I could be wrong, and that's okay. 

In her own words, "If you don't have money your whole brain is occupied in getting it." 

That is her mindset, it surely is not everyone's mind set.  Now with the book written and the money she has made off of it, she wants to stop the interviews, and distance herself from the book.

"I do not want to be chained to the book the rest of my life.  It can go off by it's self."

Why would any author use the word "chained" to their piece of work, if they are proud of it, and it has made them a ton of money and notoriety?  She's not like Harper Lee, after writing To Kill A Mockingbird, who detested public fame, and decided to become a recluse, and never write another book.  No, if anything, she is enjoying these interviews, the money, the fame, and intends to write another book. 

I personally don't think she will attempt a sequel to Educated, that will include her family, only and but for, the possible lawsuits they will bring against her, which may still be in the process at the present time.

Was she really naive to think she could write a tell all book, alleging accusations against members of her family, infer mental illness, blame them for everything right down to not teaching her self cleanliness, take complete credit for her education, and then walk away from the book, and let it go off by itself?   

I don't play the devil's advocate when I disagree with other's points of view, and I certainly don't intend to be argumentative.  So in saying that, I do want to say this,  Tara tells us she "taught herself."  She quote's her father saying, "you can teach yourself something better than anyone else can teach it to you."   I can't believe it took her til her teens to know self cleanliness.  Even some animals clean up after themselves after relieving themselves, a baby's natural response when they have soiled their diaper is to cry for a change to be clean, birds preen their own feathers, yet, Tara didn't know to wash her own hands after using the bathroom, or couldn't comb her own hair, and her parents are to blame?  This is just too much.  I can see the neglect and abuse she claims happened, but to blame her parents for self grooming, shows me the desperate embellishments of the book, when she is self proclaiming, being able to teach herself how to read, and teach herself algebra. 

Ginny, 

Her mother did take the time to teach her.   Not homeschooling.  She says so flatly in one of the  video  links I put up here in an interview (with blond hair) when asked directly (as she skirts around it in the book) what homeschooling she received from her mother,  that her mother by the time she came along was too busy with the Oils and 7 children (or something like that, it's there for anybody to see) to do any homeschooling.

And apparently too busy to teach the child anything about hygiene, health,  and personal cleanliness, either,  as witness to the others in college and afterwards  who encountered her, at her own admission.

So Mom, while I'm sure providing support in some things and instruction in some things, apparently skipped these two major  issues. And of course SHE is bottling oils for health.

Just one more contradiction I found in this book:

pg.  25  I am seven or eight and am in my room dressing for church.  I have taken a damp rag to my face, hands and feet, scrubbing only the skin that will be visible.  Mother watches me pass a cotton dress over my head, which I have chosen for its long sleeves so I won't have to wash my arms, and a jealousy lights her eyes.  "If you were Grandma's daughter," she says, "we'd have been up at the crack of dawn preening your hair.  The the rest of the morning would be spent agonizing over which shoes, the white or the cream, would give the right impression."

This shows me, Tara was like most children, not wanting to take the time to bathe properly, or wash their hands after going to the bathroom, or use deodorant.  That's personal choice, NOT neglect of the parents.

This mother who had no time to teach her kids anything, who had constant migraines from head injuries:

pg.  45  There had been a time, when Tyler was a boy, when Mother had been idealistic about education.  She used to say that we were kept at home so we could get a better education.  But it was only Mother who said that, as Dad thought we should learn more practical skills.  When I was very young, that was the battle between them; Mother trying to hold school every  morning, and Dad herding the boys into the junkyard the moment her back was turned.  But mother would lost that battle, eventually.  It began with Luke, the fourth of the five sons.  Luke was smart when it came to the mountain__he worked with animals in a way that made it seem like he was talking to them__but he had a severe learning disability and struggled to learn to read.  Mother spent five years sitting with him at the kitchen table every morning, explaining the same sounds again and again, but by the time he was twelve, it was all Luke could do to cough out a sentence from the Bible, during family scripture study.  Mother couldn't understand it.  She'd had no trouble teaching Tony and Shawn to read, and everyone else had just sort of picked it up.  Tony had taught me to read when I was four, to win a bet with Shawn, I think.  Once Luke could scratch out his name and read short, simple phrases, Mother turned to Math.  What Math I was ever taught I learned doing the breakfast dishes and listening to Mother explain, over and over, what a fraction is or how to use negative numbers. 

pg. 46 Mother would announce that today we were doing school.  She kept a bookshelf in the basement, stocked with books on herbalism, along with a few old paperbacks.  There were a few textbooks on math, which we shared, and an American history book that I never saw anyone read except Richard.  There was also a science book, which must have been for you children because it was filled with glossy illustrations.  It usually took half an hour to find all the books, then we would divide them up and go into separate rooms to "do school."  Mother never delivered lectures or administered exams.  She never assigned essays.  There was a computer in the basement with a program call Mavis Beacon, which gave lessons on typing. 

pg. 61  I'd find myself imagining the classrooms where Tyler was spending his days.  I had a bizarre thought, that I should enroll in the public school.  Mother had always said we could go to school if we wanted.  We just had to ask Dad, she said.  Then we could go.  But I didn't ask.  There was something in the hard line of my father's face, in the quiet sigh of supplication he made every morning before he began family prayer, that made me think my curiosity was an obscenity, an affront to all he'd sacrificed to raise me.

Again, Tara's "imagining" comes into her deciding what is fact.  She "never asked."   Her father did not stop her from taking the ACT test, her father never stopped her from applying to BYU. She was NOT a prisoner in her home.

Where in this book does Tara ever take any accountability? 

She has taken everyone's inventory, spoken for them, thought for them and felt for them, imagines, in a lot of areas in this book, and never once does she admit any accountability.

I understand she is a victim. 

But... when she chose to write this book, she had legal and ethical responsibilities. Like the psychologist's husband asked, "Does she have Stockholm syndrome?"

But then, she would have had to been held as a hostage, to have this syndrome, which we clearly know she was not.  She was allowed to have dance, piano and acting classes.  She dated, brought her boyfriend Charles to their house, she was in more than one play, she went with her mother to midwife, she rode horses with Shawn, she used the car to go buy her ACT test, she went off to college, etc., etc. She could come and go as she pleased. 

PatH., 

Tara as a historian.  What made her choose that as a major?

She said in her interview she wanted to go to college for music.  Once she realized how much history she lacked, it seems she decided to change her major. 

Ginny, Good luck with your surgery.  I hope all goes well. 

I for one am ready to take a pause in this discussion.  I have never felt so frustrated, as I do with this book. I don't have the time or patience to point out more of her discrepancies in this book.  I marked so many, and then after watching her video interviews, and reading her interviews, I just keep seeing more and more of them.  Some readers will take this book for face value, not take the time to even question anything in it.  Others like myself, those who have written reviews and even the psychologist, will notice the inconsistencies, embellishments, and question the validity of what she wrote.

 

Like I said before, this in NOT the worst book describing a life of abuse ever written. It did NOT break the mold, and sadly to say, it will NOT be the one and only one to be written. 

We have other historians who have come before Tara Westover....
The Diary of a Young Girl by Anne Frank,
I Am Malala: The Story of the Girl Who Stood Up for Education and Was Shot by the Taliban
by Malala Yousafzai,
Dorothy Herrmann (Author) of Helen Keller to name a few, and so many more.

Ginny,

So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this?

I see the book, here today, gone tomorrow, since the media has such a short attention span, and a thirst for something new and more salacious.  Tara's wish will come to fruition, it will go off by it's self. 

I do wonder if it will reach legal ramifications from any of the family members.  I suspect not, because with this book's success, came the success of their homeopathic oil business.  Money has always been this entire family's ultimate goal, at all costs, in my opinion. In her own words,

"If you don't have money your whole brain is occupied in getting it.

   
   


 

   

[ginny]

Thank you for the kind thoughts, much appreciated! Modern medicine can truly be miraculous in some cases. I feel very lucky today.

A few thoughts as we wind down our conclusions to our 2nd ever Mini Discussion:

Bellamarie:


I advise you and all readers to,

"Take the book with a grain of salt."

There is indeed fiction in the book.  And like I said before, I, the reader personally feel like I have been sold a false bill of goods.  She has indeed wrote history, but unlike most historians, I feel hers is a bit distorted. 

Please rest assured that everyone here  HAS read your words above, several times, and DOES understand that they are your considered opinion on the veracity of the book, and that you need feel no anxiety to repeat them: we've got it.


On this one, may I express my thoughts on the quoted material only, not the conclusions stated here?


pg.  25  I am seven or eight and am in my room dressing for church.  I have taken a damp rag to my face, hands and feet, scrubbing only the skin that will be visible.  Mother watches me pass a cotton dress over my head, which I have chosen for its long sleeves so I won't have to wash my arms, and a jealousy lights her eyes.  "If you were Grandma's daughter," she says, "we'd have been up at the crack of dawn preening your hair.  The the rest of the morning would be spent agonizing over which shoes, the white or the cream, would give the right impression."

I find this, which somehow inexplicably I had forgotten, to be, in one word,   despicable.

(1) A 7 or 8 year old minor child's parent or legal guardian has the legal and moral  responsibility to keep that child clean,  and to maintain that child  in clean and healthy conditions and surroundings: failure to do so can result in a charge of Neglect.  Had the child been in a school; the neglect of hygiene would have been (1) noticed and ridiculed  by the other children and (2)  reported to DHEC. But that's not what I found despicable, it's clear the child was trying to clean herself partially with water,  albeit covering up the dirt by long sleeves.

Here's what I found despicable about that quote:


2. Instead of using this situation as a teachable moment to explain cleanliness, Mom succumbs to the green eyed demon herself, "and a jealousy lights her eyes."


This insight from the author indicated to me,  just  as  "too busy to homeschool,"  also did, as the author's attempt to use an euphemism and give an excuse for what is patently parental neglect. Mom instead decides to deride the child's own grandmother, let me translate:

  "If you were Grandma's daughter," she says,

Translation: Aren't you lucky you're MY daughter"  (No she is not)

we'd have been up at the crack of dawn preening your hair. 

 Translation:  You'd have had to wash even your matted hair for Church because your grandmother  would care enough about you to want you to be clean. Note that WE would have been up, thus acknowledging the responsibility the Mother has for such a young child's health and welfare.

The the rest of the morning would be spent agonizing over which shoes, the white or the cream, would give the right impression."

Translation: when you wash yourself and get clean it's only for show. It has nothing to do with anything but "giving the right impression." Dressing in nice clothes is the same thing.  WE don't care about any of that, aren't you lucky?

I have seen some people question the author in places but I don't believe I have ever seen anybody defend the practices of this perfectly horrible bunch of people.

Good quote on dad's contribution to homeschooling. That answers the question of his taking credit for the success of those who succeeded despite his stated opinion of " book learning."

More....






 

[ginny]

Great points,  Everybody!

Pat, I agree that she's not finished and she may never be. I am not sure how you could shake this off easily. I liked also your thoughts on her as writer of history, I wonder what history she heard as a child beyond Ruby Ridge, was there one other one mentioned?

What did they use that TV for?  OH wait, the Honeymooners, one day, Alice, one day, POW right in the kisser. Yeah.  WE all liked the Honeymooners back in the day, poor frustrated Ralph, his longsuffering but strong wife,  but that pow right in the kisser today seems...a little uncomfortable, doesn't it?

I hate to say this I truly do but I made the mistake of looking up Shawn on Facebook and found the site by his wife.  I have never felt such despair as I did looking at it. I will not describe the photographs other than saying the  site states in big letters, with a photo of two hands entwined,  "I am married to my best friend."  And significantly there is a huge section given over to a  Wild Western movie clip constantly repeating, titled by the site's creator,  "Best bitch slap ever."  Showing said slap over and over and over.

I felt physical nausea.

I'm sorry, but there is only one Westover I can stomach talking or reading about any further.  But she is worth more comments.

Pat:

Then she writes her thesis, on what is, to her at least, a new topic in how some thinkers and religions reacted to a human problem.  And when she hands it in, she thinks again of the question. "Who makes history?". But this time the answer is a surprising "I do".


Yes, she has. And that begs the question for all of us, what history has she made here? Will there be any result at all?

Bellamarie quoted this very  interesting quote, not in relation to that question but certainly worth looking at, anyway:


8.  We have to take the condescension out of education. We've allowed education to become an identity. We have allowed our education to putrefy into arrogance.  Education should change you.

I don't necessarily blame them (parents) for feeling their kid will go off and become contemptuous of them.

9.  When you add that contempt to it (education), it becomes a different animal  Education is not so much a state of certainty, than it is a process of inquiry.  Education is maybe less about knowing more than someone, and maybe knowing someone. 

Why would the author say we have to take the "condescension" out of education? Are you aware of any condescension? In what way? Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Why does she say we've allowed education to become an identity? What does this mean?

Here are the questions on the floor:



Yes, she has. And that begs the question for all of us, what history has she made here? Will there be any result at all?

Bellamarie quoted this very  interesting quote, not in relation to that question but certainly worth looking at, anyway:


8.  We have to take the condescension out of education. We've allowed education to become an identity. We have allowed our education to putrefy into arrogance.  Education should change you.

I don't necessarily blame them (parents) for feeling their kid will go off and become contemptuous of them.

9.  When you add that contempt to it (education), it becomes a different animal  Education is not so much a state of certainty, than it is a process of inquiry.  Education is maybe less about knowing more than someone, and maybe knowing someone. 

Why would the author say we have to take the "condescension" out of education? Are you aware of any condescension? In what way? Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Why does she say we've allowed education to become an identity? What does this mean?

What one word for you sums up the book?

What one word sums up your personal reaction to the book?

What one word sums up what you will do with the knowledge you gained from reading the book?

How many stars would you give the book if you were rating it, and why?

Jonathan mentioned

'So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this? I've never read anything like it.'

Who could have guessed?  The baby in the family, growing up in beautiful Idaho. Gets a PhD in history  and sets out to write some history of her own. Reads Virginia Woolf and her history turns into a literary success. It's the honesty of her writing that has surprised everybody.

That's  a good answer to another question we need to ask:

 What do you think is the most important issue the book raises?  What might be its lasting impact, if there is one (that question overlaps the one about how it will play out)...Bellamarie thinks it will not last, what do the rest of you think?

 I'll try this one: What one word sums  up the book for you? And why?

I've thought about this since I've asked several people and gotten one word answers, it's a fun thing to have to think about.

I think I will have to say, after long thought,  that I am unwilling to choose what most people do, things like horrific and staggering and awful and horrible, and focus on her. So I'm going to say:

Inspiring Because if she can escape that  horrific experience and teaching and milieu,  then it gives hope to others stuck (God forbid) in a similar situation that they too can rise, because she did. And she DID. Nobody can deny that. I am so happy for her and I hope that some day she can find the wherewithal to see the main problem in that family (she comes close several times, like when she told her mother she let her father bully her) so she can move on, and forget this toxic bunch, because they,  as Laura  Schlessinger,  the  psychologist on the radio  used to say, when together, will always dance the Kabuki Dance they are familiar with.

 Somebody needed to break the spell and she did. Kudos to her.   I hope others are able to follow her example.


What do you think?