Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Woman Behind the New Deal:      The Life of Frances Perkins,           FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience                by Kirstin  Downey Links: Frances Perkins Center Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor Jane Addams [Frances Perkins Speech

Discussion August   l -  8     August  9 - 15   August 16 - 22     August 23 - 31

Schedule Chapters 1-9 Chapters 10-18 Chapters 19-27 Chapters 28-38

FOR CONSIDERATION

Should FDR have known about the situation in Germany in 1933 when he gave instructions to the American Ambassador to Germany? (pg.189)

Frances knew restrictive immigration policies were politically popular (191).  Why?  Is it today?  What is our immigration policy today?

Was the fact that unions did not admit women a factor in FP’s administration?  How did she deal with this union policy?

Roosevelt attempted to remain aloof during labor strikes and let FP handle disturbances.   Did it make FP’s more difficult or easier?

Frances was inspired by Europe’s old-age pensions in planning for social security..  Would there have been the program had FP not initiated it?  

“Roosevelt liked to have committee deliberations led by a Cabinet officer and handled with little publicity.  “Remember, Papa wants to know first what you’re thinking about….I don’t want to wake up and read in the paper what this committee is about to report.”  

“When there was a big splash to be made, he would make it and take credit for it.” (pg.233)   Did FP resent this?  

Was this the reason that FP has been forgotten by history?




Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold

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ADOAnnie,

While we are upset with the HR 3200, another czar has been appointed for the FCC and his plan is even more odious than the health bill.  Fines will be levied on broadcasting companies who don't give equal time to liberal , Christian, and conservative radio personalities. Are we back in the 30's when Hitler took over Germany?

It could seem we are headed in that direction.  People have a choice which radio stations and television stations they listen to or watch.  Why do we need the FCC to sanction fines if these stations do not give equal time?  All you have to do is change to the station that is what you want to listen to.  The majority of the media has been so slanted in the past year, but because more Americans are turning away from them to get a different view we are now needing the FCC to step in.  Is that like trying to force people to listen to what they want to spoon feed us?  I for one will simply turn off the station and go to the internet for my news if that is the case.

I am not in support of these appointed Czars.  More waste in government money as far as I am concerned.  Every week it seems one more Czar has been appointed.

[Ella Gibbons]

"So it does amaze me how Frances Perkins at her first meeting with FDR stated she would consider the position ONLY if he was behind her ideas and would push them" - Bellemarie

At the first meeting!  What audacity!  Did she know him well enough to do this?  Or was she secure or confident that he would approve of her suggestions?  What do you think?

"The constitutionality of the bill (to finance the bill for appropriations) was suspect from the start because of its provision calling for the creation of specific Industrial codes for each industry.  The provisions for writing each of these codes required labor representation and  involved infringement on basic legal issues including basic right to contract, price fixing, antitrust laws and more." - Harold

Illegal stuff, right?  What happened to the bill eventually?

 "Prominent people want privacy, yet when they want to use media for their own special interests they contact the press." - Bellemarie

True.  Is there a solution?

[ANNIE]

We are getting off track here by discussing what the government is doing now in the HC program.  I think maybe we ought to be discussing this in SL's Talking Heads discussion which is here:


http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.160

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, ANN, for the clickable.  I think we are back on track now.  We digressed a bit.

NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING!!!  New Chapters, New Week!

[Jonathan]

What a fierce debate you folks are having in the town halls and public squares of America regarding innovations in your  health care system. The costs we hear are spiralling. Even the well to do, we hear, are going for the savings by flying to places like India, China,  North Korea and Cuba for top end medical procedures.

One more thing about our Canadian health care system. Harold posted about meeting Canadians in Texas, down there for medical treatments. Our system is so good it will pay for medical treatment outside Canada, if that treatment is unavailable at home. It caused a great scandal a few years ago when it was discovered that an alcoholic Canadian had cost us half a million dollars with his annual winter holiday in a southern state, being 'treated' in a state of the art detox center.

The upcoming chapters give us a good picture of how FP adapted herself to high government leadership. Took to it, it almost seems, like duck to water. While careful not to ruffle male feathers, she took a back seat to none of them. Made a few enemies, but that's inevitable. Being labelled that 'communist Secretary of Labor' was inevitable given the spirit of the time. Why did she ever get involved in the International Labor Organization with its known connections to radical elements? Ditto for her overly sympathetic  concern for the plight of the desperate refugees fleeing Hitler's Germany. Given the eventual impeachment proceedings over her handling of the immigration problems, makes it seem like that bureau quickly turned into her personal Viet Nam.

[bellamarie]

I think because FDR's times and today's times are so paralel to each other you can't avoid touching on their ideas and polocies that would bring an end to the economic crisis.  Frances Perkins was indeed an advocate for programs of social justice.  Her ideas of social security, insurance to cover employees etc.  Americans either are for or against these bills and voice their postions and opinions.  With the copper workers strike back in 1919, Perkins recalled, the copper workers felt abused.  Perkins asked her fellow commissioners to come to Rome to hold a public hearing.  John Mitchell addressed the packed courtroom, and made this moving speech, " These are workmen.  These are human beings.  God made them.  They live here.  They work here.  They must be treated like human beings and when they are not, the resentments that gather are terrible indeed.  Because they have been so insulted they are so insistent upon having what they believe to be right and justice and having it guaranteed by the State Industrial  Commission.  The audience spontaneously broke out in applause.  That night Perkins spoke to Smith, reporting that the strike was for all intents and purposes settled.  During the rest of Smith's first term as governor, Perkins helped correct corrupt practices in the workmen's compensation division of the Industrial Commission.  Sometimes the employers and their insurance companies would persuade workers to sign agreements for quick settlement without informing the injured workers that they were entitled to collect further money for permanent partial disabilities.

Is this NOT how the people feel today?  Are we not being informed about how these bills will effect us?  Where is our Frances Perkins to stand up for our social justices? 

[JoanK]

I've often heard women busy with careers complain that they need a "wife"-- someone to do all the things that a wife does for a prominant man: entertain, keep the household and finances running, help the children etc. etc. As well as provide someone to talk to and share at the end of the day. I'm sure that Mary Harriman fulfilled those functins for FP, and I'm glad she had someone. Her husband couldn't help: if she had turned to another man, there would have been even more scandal.

Whether the relationship was physical or not, we'll never know, and frankly, it's none of our business. Successful women are often accused of being lesbians: it's part of the putdowns they experience.

[JoanK]

The next chapters start out talking about immegration. I always get upset when reminded of the US's failure to allow Jews trying to escape Hitler to come to this country. It is a blot on our history.

It sounds like FP did everything she could to try to bring escaping Jews to this country. But everything was blocked by the State Department. If I remember correctly, In "No Ordinary Time", Doris Kearns Goodwin's biography of FDR during the war years, she said that the State Department official in charge of this matter was openly anti-semitic, and was urging FDR to keep the Jews out.

During the Depression,  Kirsten says that FDR was concerned with the high unemployment rate. Immegrants would either add to it, or take needed jobs from Americans. once the war started, that was no longer a concern: able-bodied men were needed. But then the State Department argued that Hitler could send over spies with the program.

Ordinary Jews could only come over if they had a sponser. I'm very proud of the fact that my parents, although not Jewish, were among the few who did sponsor a refugee from the camps. She lived with us for awhile. By day, she was a pretty, shy teenager. But she slept above my bedroom, and at night, I would hear her screaming in her sleep.

[JeanClark]

Jean Clark; I am a new member, haven't read the book yet but have many memories of my father ranting about her. He was so against women in governmen ,had the barefoot in winter and pregnant in summer mentality. She had so much to contend with, sick husband, child and public opinion and she held up so well under all the pressure.She lived with a woman for years and rumor was that she was a lesbian, but many Women in that era were who tried to work in a man's world faced the same accusation.It is amazing that she was able to accomplish so much in  the face of such adversity.

[bellamarie]

JoanK,

Whether the relationship was physical or not, we'll never know, and frankly, it's none of our business. Successful women are often accused of being lesbians: it's part of the putdowns they experience.

You bring up an interesting thought.  I guess I never considered this because she had married and had a child.  I know it said she was hesitant to get married and did marry more so to stop people from asking about it.  Do you suspect the press and others were giving it consideration?  Back in the early 1900's that could or would have been a deal breaker in a woman's career, not to menion her reputation socially.  In Europe I think it was more socially acceptable.  I saw Frances as a person so involved in her professional aspirations and her passion towards social justice,  that marriage would have only slowed her down.  She truly remained loyal to caring for her husband.  But as you pointed out, " it's none of our business.", although considering how some politicians have been judged so  harshly and asked to step down or be impeached due to their indiscretions and sexual orientations, is it really none of the voters business?  Gives you food for thought.

[JoanK]

JEAN: WELCOME, WELCOME! There is certainly plenty to discuss here!!! I gather you didn't exactly agree with your father!

[bellamarie]

What was the purpose of the NRA and was it successful?  

National Recovery Administration, or NRA, was signed by Roosevelt on June 16, 1933, one of the first significant New Deal programs to attempt to revive the economy.  The act authorized the President to institute industrywide codes with the binding effect of law upon the regulation of the industry.  The purpose of the codes was to eliminate unfair trade practices, limit or abolish child labor, establish minimum wages and maximum hours, and guarantee the right of labor to bargain collectively_goals dear to Perkin's heart.  (The second essential element of the NIRA instituted a public works program, run by the Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes.)  Perkins accepted every opportunity she was given to explain to the country the purposes of the NRA.  In a speech in Brooklyn, New York, for example, she later recalled, "I undertook to show one of the great purposes of the NRA.  I said that by starting up the wheels of industry and putting more money in the pay envelopes, there would then be money to spend, and the people who got the pay envelopes with this better wage for a better day's work would have money to spend.  They would spend it on merchandise."

A little  more than six months later, the Supreme Court ruled that the NRA was unconstitutional, because its codes regulated not only interstate commerce, but also commerce within individual states.(The public works part of the NRA was not ruled unconstitutional, although some other New Deal measures were.)

In her biography of Roosevelt, Perkins described a conference she has with the President before the negative Supreme Court decision.  He laughed at her "New England caution" when she told him that even if the court's ruling was negative, she had two bill locked up in her lower left-hand drawer that "will do everything you and I think important under NRA," namely, "putting a floor under wages and ceiling over hours."  

The Public Contracts Act, which became law in June 1936
Fair Labor Standards Act, also called the Wages and Hours Act, signed June 1938.
____________________________________________

So the answer to your question, was it successful?  Yes, indeed it was, Frances just had to go around about the Supreme Court to make it constitutional, and that she was prepared for.

[Kirstin Downey]

Hi...Am reading everyone's thoughts and comments with interest. I can understand why people are anxious to avoid wading too far into the health care debate unfolding in America today, but it is certainly worth noting that Frances Perkins believed her biggest piece of unfinished business was the failure to enact national health insurance for everyone during the Roosevelt Administration. Of course, Democrats who followed FDR built on Frances's work and were able to enact Medicare, a government-financed program, but it applies only to senior citizens. I would imagine that most of the people participating here on this forum are fortunate enough to receive coverage through Medicare.

I was a reporter for the Washington Post for 20 years--I'm 52 now. My friends who have lost their jobs in the newspaper industry in recent years are terrified about their lack of insurance. I'm fortunately married to a man who works for the government and we have health insurance through him.

Does anyone here remember what used to happen to senior citizens BEFORE Medicare existed?   

[bellamarie]

Kirstin, Hello!  It is very nice to see you have had the time to read our  posts and we thank you so much for posting with your thoughts.  If I  may address your post with all due respect I would like to say, first, I am not the least bit anxious to avoid wading too far into the health care debate unfolding in America today.  I sense there are a few in our group who prefers we stick to Frances Perkins rather than this debate due to the fact it causes so much discourse, since we individually take it personally and feel so different about it depending on our party loyalty, age, insurance or lack there off.  Our dear Canadian friend seems to be very satisfied with their system and seems to feel we Americans would be better off if we had the same.  Then there are others including myself who feel we are satisfied with what we now have and do not want more government interference in our lives.  At what point is providing everything for the people harmful in the fact it does not allow us to have control of our lives?

I am not yet at the age to receive Medicare as you suspected most of the people here posting are.  But, if I may say, I know many who are and do not want the government to change it with this new health care reform bill.

You state your friends are terrified about their lack of insurance, but you fortunately are covered by your husband's government health insurance.  My question to all the government senators, congressmen/women, czars and President Obama is this, "Why if they want to reform health care and make it universal, do they NOT want us to have the exact same health care insurance they have for themselves?"  The definition for "Universal" in my Webster's Standard dictionary is: u.ni.ver'sal  adj.  common everywhere; including all things, persons, etc. without exception.

My husband also works for the federal government and we do NOT  have as good a health insurance plan as the above mentioned government workers.  Our plan covers far less than your average auto worker's plan. So again, I ask, WHY if they are pushing for UNIVERSAL health care, they are not willing to give every American the same coverage as themselves?

Had Frances Perkins and FDR accomplished to enact national health insurance back then, I strongly believe she would have managed to do a much better job in fairness for everyone, than this reform bill is purposing.

Just to quote FDR, the day after he was nominated by the DNC in July 1932, in his acceptance speech he said, "I pledge you, I pledge myself to a new deal for the American people."  Interpreting the phrase's meaning in The Roosevelt I Knew, Perkins explained: "the new deal' meant that the forgotten man, the little man, the man nobody knew much about, was going to be dealt a better cards to play with."

I would like to challenge this present house of representatives, congress, and President to rise up to this pledge.

[BarbStAubrey]

 I am remembering the nightmare before Social Security never mind Medicare - taking care of ageing parents pitched grown children against each other as they tried to figure out who could take or who could send money to help support the parents - and the aged parents we can identify with - they were our age - they had no say about their life.

Granted the depression took anything they had that may have been set aside for their old age but most had little in savings to begin with since their generation put everything into making a place or developing a farm or whatever so their children, our parents were not living in poverty. It must have been heart breaking for them to see so many of their children, our parents slip back into poverty because of the great depression.

As to medical care back before WWII - there was very little - sure Doctor's came to the house and in our house the Doctor was mostly paid in eggs and chickens - we had some shots available by the end of the 1930s but most medicine was a crude attempt with Penicillin coming along just in time for the soldiers fighting in WWII and it was almost exclusively available only to the soldiers. Sulphur - big fat red ugly tasting wafers of Sulphur is all the citizens had if they were very ill.

There were only a few aspirin manufactures - I think about 5 with Bayer being one - when Bayer built their factory in Rensselaer New York it was one of the arms of the German cartel that included IG Farben, a dye company [remember when we were kids our yellow lead pencils with IG Farben written on the side] - They made the mustard gas used in WWI

IG Farben built a factory for producing synthetic oil and rubber (from coal) in Auschwitz, which was the beginning of SS activity and camps in this location during the Holocaust. With Standard Oil in business with Farben during the war no telling how much we as average citizens contributed to the concentration camps.  

Reading about pharmaceutical companies is like reading about the atrocities of human endeavors - we forget the secret tests performed on the uneducated African Population in the later part of the twentieth century - it goes on and on - and so to me Health Care benefits is only the tip of the iceburg - if there was any way to affect a moral compass to this industry that to me would be bigger than anything this world has ever accomplished.

Some place I remember reading a question why Frances Perkins was not spending her energy in strengthening businesses - easy - she was Secretary of Labor not Secretary of Commerce. We forget it was normal and usual for a 6 day work week of 10 hours a day with no coffee breaks. It was also normal for kids to be working these hours.    It was in 1938 that ushered in the 40 hour work week among great protest that we would all go down the river. This time was also the start of  kids under the age of 16 had to have work permits.

http://www.thingsyoungerthanmccain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/40-234x300.jpg

Here all these years I blessed the soul of FDR and it was actually Frances Perkins whose soul I should have been blessing.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey, Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and knowledge with us.  I shiver at the thought of your statement about how much we could have contributed to the concentration camps.  It reminds me of the news reporting about GE being investigated for possibly helping supply roadside warhead bombs to terrorists nations that could have contributed to help kill our American soldiers.  I shudder to think of how many GE appliances I have bought and how watching NBC who is owned by GE helped contribute to their dealings.  We are innocent citizens, until we are infomed.   

I think without FDR, Frances Perkins could not have accomplished all she did, so blessing FDR was not in folly, just now you can bless FP's soul too.  To quote Perkins, "I wasn't primarily interested in making Roosevelt President.  I was interested in promoting proper labor and social legislation in the State of New York, and if he wanted to be President, in the USA  If Roosevelt was going to be President, or if Smith  was going to be President-they were the only two people whose Presidential aspirations I had ever been interested in-my concern was to see that they were Presidents who promoted the line of social justice I thought important." 

It's pretty clear, Frances needed a President in office that would promote her programs.

[Ella Gibbons]

WHAT GREAT POSTS I'M READING THIS MORNING!  THANK YOU ALL SO VERY MUCH!  

AND KIRSTIN IS HERE!  DELIGHTFUL!  

WELCOME TO JEAN CLARK, A NEWCOMER!  

From reading all your posts, I believe that all of you are very enthusiastic about the accomplishments of Frances Perkins!! (hahahaaaa)  And as Jean said, she was able to do so much even with her personal problems at home.

Kirstin, you chose your subject well!  However, I don't think any of us are reluctant to discuss health care reform, but as you so astutely commented many of us are recipients of Medicare and justifiably worred!

The newspaper industry!  Troubled industry!  I am attending a seminar next week on the Shrinking Newspaper; all of us are dreading the day we will not have a newspaper to read with our morning coffee.   Of course, your friends are worried.  Do you any possible suggestions about the future of the printed news?

I am a widow and receive the SS from my husband's working years and a small pension of my own.  Reform will come in time, possibly raising the retirement age?  I don't know.  What we all know is that the costs of such programs for senior citizens are spiraling out of control; we are all living far beyond the years that the program was originally planned forl.

However, I hesitate to get on that subject again.  THE BOOK with all its facets of government, of industry, of the two intertwining, the Supreme Court getting involved is fascinating!

BARBARA, of course I remember IG Farben pencils.  Hadn't thought of those in years.  The history of the company is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben

Fascism.  It didn't seem to worry Perkins when General Johnson became the director of the NRA; he was inspired by Benito Mussolini who merged political and business forces in Italy. (p.175)   Government would direct the operations of businesses.  But when troubles started, and they did almost immediately, she didn't hesitate to get involved, make decisions, creating advisory committees.

HAROLD discussed this in a prior post.  I am reminded when I read of decisions taken by the federal government of our problems today, aren't you?  Government is complicated.  Obama, I believe, has attempted new strategies and some old to get his programs and policies through Congress, a democratic Congress at that.  Some have worked, others failed.

Labor movements!  Have you read of any problems lately, heard of any?

In Chapter 22 history comes alive; workers grew confrontational, strikers were a problem, particularly in the auto companies.  

And then the dockworkers!  Because of containers and new shipping procedures, we have eliminated this problem haven't we?  And jobs, also!

Where are the problems in labor today?

[mabel1015j]

I believe the story about GE providing some piece of the warheads in Iraq has been proven to be inaccurate by the "fact-finders."

Most events as big as the ones we are reading about take more than one person to enact them. FP certainly must get credit for her ideas and her competency in political strategy, but FDR choose her - against strong opposition - to be SEc of Labor. I'm amazed at how much she WAS accepted and listened to by the groups to which she spoke and the influence that she had thruout the country.

She obviously had great patience and remarkable people skills - always keeping her eye on her goal. Having worked for Dept of Army, i spent a lot of time trying to calm people - particulary women - who had gotten their hackles up about being "disrespected" by men in authority. I never counseled them to accept real abuse, but i frequently counseled them to weigh whether their feelings had been hurt, rather than were disrespected,  and whether that was more important than the goal they were after. In one mtg i had w/ a Director/Colonel, he answered the phone twice, left his door open so people wandered in and out during our mtg - when i relayed the episode to another woman director, she explained "Jean, you didn't have to put up w/ that!" I said, "Toni, I perservered and i left his office w/ what i came to get."  I'm seeing some of that philosophy in FP............jean

[bellamarie]

Jean,

I believe the story about GE providing some piece of the warheads in Iraq has been proven to be inaccurate by the "fact-finders."

Jean, thank you for your post.  The last I had heard they were still being investigated.  The mere thought of it made me shiver.  As Frances Perkins showed us when Hoover was in office, she saw fudged unemployment figures come out to settle the uneasiness of the people who refused to let go of what money they had.  We are talking crooks and corruptness in government as far back as the early 1900's.  It doesn't surprise me what is going on today.  I loved how FDR responded to Frances Perkins after she held a press conference in what she issued a statement showing Hoover to be wrong.  The unemployment problem was, in fact worsening, not improving.  Satisfied that she had made the truth known, she was taken aback to find herself in the headlines the following day.  Both congratulatory and accusatory telegrams and telephone calls streamed in, including a call from Governor Roosevelt.  All of a sudden it occured to her  that perphaps she should have checked with him before speaking out against the President.  Prepared to apologize to Roosevelt for taking such bold action without his approval, she was surprised "to be greeted by a cheerful voice saying, "Bully for you!  That was a fine statement and I am glad you made it."  He told her it was just as well she hadn't checked with him in advance.  "If you had asked me, I would probably have told you not to do it, and I think it is  much more wholesome to have it right out in the open."

I say, BULLY for FDR!  and Bully for you Jean!!!   We need more women standing up and for women.

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN asked "Why did she (FP) ever get involved in the International Labor Organization with its known connections to radical elements?"  

I never knew of this organization, so looking it up Google (which is now Bing) I learned this:

http://www.ilo.org/global/About_the_ILO/lang--en/index.htm

"The ILO was founded in 1919, in the wake of a destructive war, to pursue a vision based on the premise that universal, lasting peace can be established only if it is based upon decent treatment of working people. The ILO became the first specialized agency of the UN in 1946. "

There is your answer, JONATHAN.  In FP's book she states that after asking FDR if she had his permission to prepare the way for the USA to join, he, after some thought, reminded her of the country's opposition to the League of Nations and advised her to not to do this without the full assent of the members of Congres responsible for foreign policy.

"they have a sense of their responsibility and they can't have sincere convictions unless they are given a chance to examine the situation at close range."

IMHO, although we get impatient with Congress and their slow progress to get legislation passed, mistakes are made with hasty decisions.

As someone said "the cattle must graze awhile."

BELLEMARIE, do you have a copy of FP's book?  It's a good read!  And like you I say BULLY FOR FDR!  (although that was his cousin who is known for the bully pulpit I think?)  Do you know that the two families, the Hyde Park Roosevelts and the Oyster Bay Roosevelts never were too friendly to each other?  Isn't that strange?  And Eleanor was the product of Teddy Roosevelt's brother!  I think I'm right!

We must talk a bit about FDR, Eleanor, their relations with Frances Perkins, the White House.

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding Ella’s question, was FP effective with labor leaders?  I think our text was pretty clear that the principal labor leaders were pretty discussed with her appointment..  William Green had been under consideration for the post and in fact expected it himself; so too other labor leaders expected and wanted Green to have the appointment opening new leadership opportunities for themselves. Perhaps more bluntly they simply wanted him out of the way.
 
Be that as it may as it turned out Frances’s 12 year term turned out to be some of the best years for organized labor growth in membership and influence.  Also Frances prove herself very effective in supporting and promoting Labor interesting.  She also was effective as a conciliator in several major labor conflicts.

Regarding the second part of Ella’s question, how was she perceived by business interests?  The text may be less clear but it is certain her interest, were labor’s interest, not business’s interest.  Yet there are instances mentioned in the book when through her live-in arrangement with Mary Harriman Rumsey she met prominent Business leaders on social occasions, social events that led to conciliation agreements mutually advantageous to both business and labor. 

[HaroldArnold]

Have you noticed through the reading of this book how different major Federal decisions were made from the way they are made today?  I am referring to the many meetings of President Roosevelt with his entire cabinet.  The President made the decision on his own, but only after the entire cabinet had discussed the issue and individual cabinet members had voiced their opinion.  I think this is the way major executive Department decisions had been made since the earliest days of the republic. Frances’s seems to have enjoyed particularly influence with FDR that enabled her opinions to prevail even on issues outside her Labor bailiwick

Today we hardly ever hear of Cabinets meetings.  Presidential decisions are much more the product of the Whitehouse staff with perhaps input of concern Cabinet Departments and of course pressure groups. Does the Cabinet ever meet these days except perhaps to have a group picture taken?

[Ella Gibbons]

Good points, HAROLD!

"Frances’s 12 year term turned out to be some of the best years for organized labor growth in membership and influence.  Also Frances prove herself very effective in supporting and promoting Labor interests.  She also was effective as a conciliator in several major labor conflicts."

And weren't those conflicts interesting to read?  And fascinating that she was effective in dealing with labor at this time in our history; probably the most violent?  Maybe not, but certainly they could have been.  

On pg.210, we read that the auto industry was entering a turbulent period.  Well, what will history say about this period in the auto industry?  I read in my morning paper that our state of Ohio is considering buying used cars when their fleet of 7000 cars need to be replaced.  Really!

And I also read that AT&T will stop delivering white page phone directories.

The times we knew are disappearing to be replaced with more efficient, environmentally wise products and policies.  A good thing.

But, HAROLD, you think FDR met with his Cabinet often?  

Curiously, I "binged" Obama and the cabinet and got this:

http://www.examiner.com/a-2147648~Obama__Cabinet_meet_for_mid_year_assessment.html?cid=rss-District_Of_Columbia_Headlines

Across the street?  Why?  They must bond?  

[bellamarie]

Ella, sad to say my library has not been able to provide me with the book, but I am thrilled I do have the one I have, since it seems to be filled with as many facts necessary for this discussion.

In my book I found this interesting, The first attempt at labor and social legislation with which Perkins became involved was a mixed success.  When the New Dealers first came to Washington, she recalled in her Reminiscences, "we were improvising under a terrible pressure of poverty, distress, despair...Therefore, whatever was done, too quickly to think out all the implications."  People from all around the country, not all of them government officials, began to put their heads together to think of schemes to revive the country's economy.

The "too quickly to think out all the implications", reminds me of what is going on today in this administration.  I think they are acting too quickly to find an answer to help revive this economy, and are realizing now, they need to slow down.  They are finding themselves in a quandary, with one person saying one thing and another contradicting it on the same day, then you have Gibbs coming out trying to clean up the mess, only to make a bigger one. Thank goodness they took the Aug. break and the President is taking a vacation.  Maybe clearer, rested heads will return.

In the link Ella provided, it states a mid year meeting.  I think the President is relying largely on his Czars, who he hand picked, being close friends and colleagues of his.  Not so sure that is working out so good for him.  I for one think weekly or monthly cabinet meetings could be more productive.  Frances Perkins seems to have been involved with just about everything back then.  It still amazes me  how she "a woman" could infiltrate a man's world in politics and survive.  Although she did face a few battles, and threats.

Harold,... Does the Cabinet ever meet these days except perhaps to have a group picture taken?

I'm certain there was a picture op for this mid year meeting.

[Ella Gibbons]

ISN'T THIS A GOOD PICTURE OF FDR AND ELEANOR?

Both of them smiling, happy.  

We must bring both of them into the discussion!

They were so influential during that period, and in Frances Perkins' life.

What do you know about them?

Did you read anything you DID NOT know in the book?

What was FP's relationship with them?  Could you say that FDR was a friend or was he always the PRESIDENT, the boss?

[HaroldArnold]

Bellamarie, Ella, et al A bit more about cabinet meetings.  Well from Ella's link it appears that they do occasionally meet.  From the verbiage used in the link describing the current meeting as the mid-year meeting it would seem that 2 per year are implied.

I am sure that throughout past U.S. history each President has use his cabinet in an advisory body more or less depending on his particular style of governing.  I can see why early Presidents would use the Cabinet more  since until recently the Whitehouse staff was much smaller than it is today.  Thomas Jefferson had a Secretary apparently his only office help.  Based on a current display at the Institute of Texan Cultures, Andrew Jackson furnished his own Kitchen and house cleaning  help.  Roosevelt of course had a much larger Staff than that, but certainly much less than the President today.  In the end regardless of who he chooses to ask advice, or the size or titles the large staff of whitehouse advisers, it  is the President who makes the decision.      

[bellamarie]

HaroldArnold,

In the end regardless of who he chooses to ask advice, or the size or titles the large staff of whitehouse advisers, it  is the President who makes the decision.

       
 
Or so it would appear to be, but ultimately and for certain, it is the President who will be held accountable.  Good or bad, the voters will remember at the polls.  
 

[bellamarie]

Ella, What a lovely picture of FDR and Eleanor.  Yes, before we end this dicussion in a week or so, we do need to bring Eleanor into the discussion.  The woman behind the man....in his case there were two, Eleanor and Frances.  Luckily for Frances, Eleanor liked her.  Imagine if she didn't.  lol

[EvelynMC]

Ella,

I must make a correction.  What I think I said in my post was that most of Arkansas is dry. --- The county I live in permits liquor sales in liquor stores during the week (it is a resort town).  And Little Rock is also "wet".  Many counties are still dry but not the whole state.

Evelyn

[JeanClark]

I am amazed at the resourcefulness of this woman. She weathered the  prejudice of the powerful men around her and managed to get her programs fully or partly voted in place. She had to have been a great manipulator of people and had the ability to judge people . A remarkable woman in any age . The attitude of most of the men that she worked with was clearly evident in Harold Ickes statement that " A woman, a dog and a walnut tree, the more you beat them,the better they be".what a terrible work place to have to go to every day.Yet, she held up and did a magnificent job.

[ANNIE]

My gosh, Evelyn,
So funny to read of states that still have dry counties in this modern age.  I used to live in a dry county in Austin, TX, Travis county, and where I live now in Ohio used to have liquor stores owned by the state.  They, too, were not open on Sunday.  I believe that most of the stores and restaurants in Cobb County, GA, did not sell alcohol on Sundays and covered up all beer and wine with sheets of plastic on Sundays.  This was back in the 80's.  I don't what their laws are now.  We could drive over the county line(half a block away) and go to restaurants and stores where liquor was sold all week.

Did I not read here that FP didn't seem to care if FDR took the credit for her ideas as long as they were enacted?

[EvelynMC]

Ann

You must have read that in this book, because I read the same thing.

FP was truly an altruistic woman and really cared about helping the less fortunate and about working people.

[Kirstin Downey]

Lots of you are asking about Eleanor and Frances, and it's a great question. I go into this a lot in the book. Frances Perkins and Eleanor Roosevelt had a complicated relationship almost from the beginning. Frances was a well-known and influential social reformer and civic activist from her early 20s and had a well-established reputation of her own from her successes at achieving life-safety and workplace regulation following the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire. Eleanor at that time was more of a wealthy charity volunteer married to an up-and-coming politician. Frances was an active suffragist; Eleanor was initially unsure whether women should be given the right to vote. Frances had a graduate degree; Eleanor had a finishing school education. In the early years, Frances was the prominent one. They were never good friends. But they became important political allies and came to love and respect each other. Eleanor was very effective at popularizing the things Frances and Franklin were doing. Frances was actually better friends with Franklin. Eleanor grew into a grand and beloved figure, partially because of her personal warmth but also because she was good at PR and was more societally acceptable as wife to the president. For Frances, that chafed, especially as her role became forgotten.
Kirstin Downey

[ANNIE]

Kirsten,
I do believe that FP's preference to a very private life is the reason many people didn't know that she was around. Not true of Eleanor.   FP certainly made a huge difference in most of our lives, in one way or another.  I do wish that her idea for national health had been passed, at least for the seniors back then.
 
My mother was a glad recipient of SS aid after my father died in 1947.  She received a check as the widow and two more for my brother and me. They were most helpful in keeping her boat afloat. My brother was accident prone and there was nothing mentioned about health insurance where she worked.

[HaroldArnold]

In the end regardless of who he chooses to ask advice, or the size or titles of the large staff of Whitehouse advisers, it  is the President who makes the decision.

The above quoted from my earlier posts is perhaps not one of my better sentences. I should have at least added, "and it is the President who will get the credit or the blame.

[Ella Gibbons]

HI KIRSTIN!  Are you going to tell us sometime soon if you are working on another book and who it is about?  We're all hoping!!

Thanks for the post about Eleanor and Frances.  I can understand that it must have been difficult for FP reading about Eleanor in the press constantly.  The wife, the wife!  Takes precedence!  We'll read a bit more about Eleanor in the last chapters of the book.

Have you noticed that Roosevelt keeps "giving the nod" to Frances?  Hahahaaa  But he humiliated her at times, also, when it was to his advantage.  Papa wants the credit, wants to read about himself in the papers also; had an ego that needed to be stroked, I think.

See new questions in the heading!

P.S.  Is that one of those furs around Eleanor's neck with a fox head on it that women used to wear?  An aunt of mine came to our house when I was very young with such a fur around her neck; I still remember my fear of it!

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, we are both thinking alike here!

[HaroldArnold]

ADOANNIE, in reference to your message #270 above:  It has been a long time since Travis County, TX (Austin) was dry.   It already allowed beer & wine bars and hard liquors were available in package stores for off site consumption in the late 1940's.  Of course mixed drink sales in bars and restaurants was not permitted in Texas until the mid 1960's.  Sixty years ago there were many dry counties in the state some that may have been close to Austin.   There are a few Counties that remain dry to this day.  

[ANNIE]

Well, heck, Harold.  We lived there in the mid 50's and I would understand if they had changed.  Tee hee!  I haven't seen it since 1956 and I understand it has grown way out of my imagination.

[mabel1015j]

I got the Downey book yesterday from the library - it's very popular there - and i will have it for 2 weeks. I'm so glad  to have gotten it because I am really enjoying it. I think it is very well written. I see on the cover leaf that KD has won awards for her business and economics reporting, and i think some of the award must be for how well she writes, not just for the technical aspects fo those issues. I find it so easy to read. I like her use of words and vocabularly and it draws me along to the next sentence, the next page, the next chapter. In other words, she makes the story quite interesting. It is not a chore to read about these events that could be very dry - and being a history major/teacher, i have read some very dry reports, particularly of presidential administrations.

I started at chapter 18, but i will go back and read the beginning. I think KD's next book should be about Mary Harriman - or, somebody should write about her. What an interesting character she is.

When you were talking about what the relationship was between Mary and Frances, i was thinking almost the exact thing that KD says about their relationship in this chapter. For women who grew up in the Victorian period, it is possible that  words and actions, some of which would perhaps raise some  eyebrows  today, were much more intimate between some women of the time. It was not unusual for sisters to accompany sisters on their honeymoons. Hugging, kissing, statements of love and adoration, sleeping in the same bed was not uncommon among women, but did not necessarily mean they were in a sexual relationship. The flip side of that coin was that there were perhaps more "Boston marriages" going on than society thought there was, because it was common for women (and men) to live together, to share rooms and housing. It was also very common for rich women to pay for vacations, or trips for women less able to afford them. Mary Bethune went on more than one trip to Europe on Eleanor Roosevelt's dime.

Of course, as some of you have already said - it really doesn't matter what the realtonship was, the important thing is that much of what Mary was able to provide allowed Frances to do her very important work - like a "wife." As someone has already said, wouldn't we all like to have a "wife." ( That was a very famous essay in one of the early MS magazines - "I Want a Wife." )  And having the support of another woman may have been easier than dealing w/ the competition that might have reared its head if FP had had a male companion/partner - even husband.

I didn't know that MH had started the Junior League, or that the League was started as a supporter of the Settlement House Movement.

I loved the statement on pg 167 that "Mrs Rumsey has the ideas of a leader but she dallies with beauty, art and luxury on her way. If she did not have that softening, feminine spot in her makeup, she, too, might be a maker of history."  That darn soft, feminine spot of dallying in beauty, art and luxury will get in the way every time..........lol

I see many similarities between Frances and Eleanor, altho i sense that FP may have had more confidence in herself than ER did. FP seems to have had more emotional support in her growing up years than poor ER who spent alot of time being told by a beautiful mother what an "old granny" she was and implying, if not out right saying, how unattractive ER was. And then, of course, ER's father was the rogue of the family, an alcoholic who on at least one occasion left ER outside a bar waiting for him and forgot she was there. Both of her parents died when she was young. Even tho she got good support and esteem from the head mistress of her school in Europe, ER always tho't of herself as too tall, too gawky, having too high-pitched a voice. Having a husband who had an affair w/ her secretary couldn't have been good for her self-esteem either. Amazingly, she seems to have come into her own in the White House and decided she was a worthy person. Her best years seem to have been after FDR died. Isn't it interesting that women have often done their best work when, or after, they no longer have children or husbands to take care of?

I'll catch up w/ the reading as quickly as i can......................jean