Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Woman Behind the New Deal:      The Life of Frances Perkins,           FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience                by Kirstin  Downey Links: Frances Perkins Center Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor Jane Addams [Frances Perkins Speech

Discussion August   l -  8     August  9 - 15   August 16 - 22     August 23 - 31

Schedule Chapters 1-9 Chapters 10-18 Chapters 19-27 Chapters 28-38

FOR CONSIDERATION


As fear rose of war, suspicions of immigrants appeared and the Immigration Service was transferred from FP’s Labor Dept. to the Justice Department.  Today it is under Homeland Security and there is still suspicion of immigrants.  What should be done to alleviate fear of illegal or legal immigrants?

FPerkins and FDRoosevelt had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?  

“She did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a ’false role’ that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii.”(pg.322)  Has this ever been proven to your knowledge?  What do you think?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?”

It is unbelievable that a large-scale attack by an enemy of the USA could occur today.  Why?

Is war a male preserve?  

Roosevelt promoted conflict between people and agencies.  “A little rivaly is stimulating, you know.  It keeps everybody going to prove that he is a better fellow than the next man.  It keeps them honest too.” - (pg.360 The Roosevelt I Knew)  Is this a good way to govern?  Or to lead?

Truman came in the back door, so to speak.  How did it happen?

FP disclosed her anti-Catholism when she spoke against Jimmy Byrnes (pg.335).  Was there a lot of prejudice against Catholics in the US and why?

Who should have the power to decide if a president is ill and cannot perform the duties of the office?  Should FDR have been allowed to go to the Yalta Conference?  Why not send VP Truman in his place?

Could FDR’s “dream” of going to Saudi Arabia, after the war, might have been due to the fact that there was oil there?  (pg.340)  He must have known how precious that resource was to the world.

“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?

“Truman faced a daunting task.  FDR thought him so insignificant that he never bothered to share the details about the war or foreign affairs with him” (pg.346)  The presidency of the USA is one of great power and we should never allow this situation to happen again.  How can it be prevented?


Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold

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Jean, Thank you for this post.  I have not been able to get the book and like I said my book I have by another author did not cover that relationship in as intimate detail.  Just reading what you posted has me intrigued with Kirstin Downey's writing.  I moved out at eighteen and shared an apartment with first two of my best friends and later one of them and myself got our own apartment and slept in the same large bed.  Never in my wildest dreams would anyone have thought it odd or imagined we were anything more than just friends.  I never in all my time living with her had any feelings beyond friendship.  She and I were very much in search of a boyfriend/husband.  It was very common for females to share apartments to be able to leave home and become independent.

Isn't it interesting that women have often done their best work when, or after, they no longer have children or husbands to take care of?

Gee, as much as there is truth in this, it saddens me to think of it.

[Ella Gibbons]

JEAN, I AM SO HAPPY YOU HAVE THE BOOK! 

Those of us who have it agree Kirstin writes very well, keeps the subject so interesting; a subject that you said could be so very dry!

But Mary Harriman died fairly young, I believe so I am not sure if that is a good candidate for a book?  The whole Harriman family would be interesting to write about and possibly there is already a book about Averill, her brother?  FP was devasted when Mary died; she was having so many personal problems at the time.

Let's all think of a good candidate for Kirstin to write about.  Who do you nominate?

JEAN, I disagree with this statement - "Her best years seem to have been after FDR died."

FDR did Eleanor a great favor, although she may not have recognized it as such, when he sent her out into the country on his errands to get information, to be his eye and ears.  And possibly to get her out of the way for his affairs with other women? 

She became a confident speaker, became known among the mine workers , in Applachia among the poor, she got out of the home and into the world.  Other wise, this very intellectual woman, might have just been a wife and mother.  FDR created Eleanor in my way of thinking, forcing her to become independent.

It wasn't until his death, I think, that she started writing? 

But we are getting ahead of ourselves.  Let's get back to FDR!

[Ella Gibbons]

REFUGEES AND REGULATIONS:  Chapter 20

In early 1933 , at a dinner party, Frances  learned from a reporter, who had just returned from Germany, of the Nazi party and of the danger Hitler posed.

In 1933, Roosevelt gave his newly appointed Ambassador to Germany the order to press for repayment of Germany's large debt to the US and, further, he said that while Hitler's discrimination against the Jews was "shameful" we should do nothing to interfere with internal affairs[/font]

WHEN DO WE INTERFERE IN A NATION'S INTERNAL AFFAIRS?

[Jonathan]

Page 169....'Around this time (1934), two separate books hit the stands that cast doubt on Frances's public persona as a middle-aged mother of impeccably correct appearance and rectitude.'

Has anyone read Sinclair Lewis's ANN VICKERS, the book 'about the sexual and professional travails of a New York City social worker? Lewis, who once had shouted a marriage proposal from the street at Frances's upstairs window, acknowledged that the book was about Frances, but drew also on the characters of Shakespeare's Portia, Sarah Bernhardt, and Catherine the Great (and can't you just see FP wanting to be all three at one time or another?). SL and FP knew each other well, and from what we're told about the relationship, FP could have thrown him a tactful refusal with, you must be kidding me.

From such a glorious beginning Frances turned into a hardworking, but faceless bureaucrat. But her conference or committee room was never 'dry'. If she anticipated a difficult working sesion, she would set a bottle of Scotch on the table and declare, we're not leaving here until we finish this business.

I'm busily trying to absorb all the fascinating information in this week's chapters. What an exciting time it must have been in Washington during the Thirties. And at the center of it all was Frances Perkins, pulling at all those strings.

Page 230. 'Joblessness. Strikes. Immigration. Huge new public works programs. By 1934, Frances certainly had a full plate. But instead of conserving her strength  or allowing herself to become distracted by the whirl of issues she confronted daily, Frances now began to turn her attention to solving some of the larger societal problems, including unemployment and care for the aging, that had been of concern to her since her settlement house years.'

But the nagging thought intrudes. Where in all this is poor, wifeless Paul? Was it a loveless marriage? Did it leave Frances with an uneasy conscience?

FDR and FP worked well together:

Page 232-3. 'The two of them shared a predilection for creating committees or boards to get things done....Sometimes the committees they formed were little more than window dressing to gather support for a predetermined position....Frances would set the agenda for the outcome she wanted, and the president would lend his prestige to the effort by ceremoniously appointing the people Frances had picked....the committee on economic security was one of those, and in this one Frances used all the tricks she had learned over a lifetime.'

The life of a social worker who became the warm-hearted bureaucrat. Thanks Kirstin. One small detail. Frances's age change could have been made to correspond to  Mary H's age rather than to FDR's as you suggest, both of them two years younger than Frances. But it's all there in your book, left to the reader to decide.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, But the nagging thought intrudes. Where in all this is poor, wifeless Paul? Was it a loveless marriage? Did it leave Frances with an uneasy conscience?


In my book it states she stayed in constant contact with him and the hospital, visiting him and reassuring him she would always be there to over see his care.  I think there was love,  just not the intimate type as husband and wife.

[HaroldArnold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Bridges  Click the preceding link for the Wikipedia  Bio sketch of Harry Bridges.  This Labor leader’s role in West Coast dock labor disputes certainly involved Frances particularly during the 2nd term.  Frances’s failure to follow through with the deportation of this alleged Communist was the basis of the Impeachment proceeding began against her in the House of Representatives.  A House committee No Billed Frances after hearing evidence that Bridges was in fact a Communist enrolled with the Russian NKVD  as a Russian Intelligence Agent.  Apparently the house Committee did not believe the testimony of the witness so the charge against Frances was dismissed.

FDR’s stance during the time that his Secretary of Labor was on trial was typical of FDR when his Lieutants were under attack.  He remained neutral, Frances was on her own.  Today the defense against an impeachment charge against a Cabinet member would be immense, in the order of many 10’S of thousand dollars even if as in Frances case the charges were dismissed early in the process.  Even so it must surely cost Frances quite a few dollars.

Or book notes an interesting new post 1989 view on Bridges; after the fall of the Russian Communist Government, the public opening of MKVD records revealed that Bridges was indeed a NKVD agent prepared to bring about the overthrow of American Democracy. 

[maryboree]

MABEL - about Eleanor:  isn't it true that in the years after FDRs death when she became a figure in her own right, there were those who accused her also of being a lesbian?  I always had such tender feelings for this great lady because yes, she was not a pretty woman, and yes she was tall and lanky when petite and cute was a lot more desirable at that time; her high-pitched voice would not have taken her to the stage as Tallulah's did.  But her sweetness and gentle manner, open mindness, and her ability to reach out to those less fortunate were her crowning glory (to say nothing about her extreme intelligence).  

I just finished reading "Franklin Roosevelt at Hyde Park," of less than 200 pages, and in it the author often included quotes from framily members.  One was from ER's book, "This Is My Story" in which she writes, about FDR....

"I do remember once, when the children were still very young, asking him solemnly how much religion he felt we should teach them, or whether it was our duty to leave them free minds until they decided for themselves as they grew older.  He looked at me with his amused and quizzical smile, and said that he thought they had better go to church and learn what he had learned.  It would do them no harm.  I replied, 'But are you sure that you believe in everything you learned?'  He answered, "I really never thought about it.  I think it is just as well not to think about things like that too much'."  

Very interesting question, wasn't it?  She really was very concerned about free minds.

[bellamarie]

I have some chronology of Paul and Frances from my book,
(Frances Perkins Champion of the New Deal by Naomi Pasachoff)

Starting with their marriage:

1913 Paul Wilson and Frances Perkins were married with no family or friends in attendance.
1918 Paul became ill "and forced her to rethink her plans.  Her life would never be the same again. "My husband suffered from an up and down illness all the way through. It was always up and down. He was sometimes depressed, sometimes excited...From 1918 on there were never anything but very short periods of reasonably comfortable accommodating to life...Sometimes he was hospitalized, sometimes not. Sometimes he would go off on a little trip. Sometimes he would have an attendant that was called a secretary. There was great variety in the whole process."
1929 Perkins was less than anxious to become Industrial Commissioner. It might upset her husband, who continued to go to his office at the Equitable Life Assurance Company (although Perkins was uncertain whether he actually did any productive work there.)  
1932 - 1937 Her excitement at the prospect of Roosevelt's winning the Presidency was tempered, however, by the worsening of her husband's condition.  Wilson was admitted into a sanitarium in White Plains, New York, sometime in 1932 and remained until 1937. Sometimes he was in good enough shape to receive friends, play tennis and bridge, and come home for weekends; at other times he was in such bad shape that no one but Perkins could see him.
1933 As she recalled twenty years later, "The idea of moving to Washington horrified me...My husband was ill in a hospital.  I was near him in New York so that I could go to see him regularly and provide easily for his occasional expedition out of the hospital.... In true spiritual anguish as to how she would respond if Roosevelt were to offer her the Cabinet appointment, Perkins took  her problem to an Episcopal bishop, Charles K. Gilbert. He offered her encouragement to accept the challenge should the Presidet-elect make her the offer. Telling her that he truly believed that " it is God's own call," he assured her that God would help her through the personal difficulties that lay ahead. Feb 22 she she was summoned to his office at the Roosevelt house on East 65th Street in New York City. Even having received his assurances during the interview that he would support her initiatives as secretary of labor, however she did not accept the offer on the spot.  She told Roosevelt that before she could give him a definite answer she would have to check with her husband.  The following day she went out to the sanitarium in White Plains where she knew she would find Wilson "in no state of mind...to have an independent analysis of anything." Nonetheless, "The amenities between my husband and me were such that I would never dream of doing a thing he hadn't been informed of and consulted about in advance."  Perkins was relived to find Wilson "in a good controlled mood."  She reassured him that he could continue to consider their New York apartment his home and that she would continue to visit him regularly.
1935 As she prepared to leave the Dept of Labor for the signing ceremony at the White House, (The Social Security Act)Perkins was summoned to the telephone.  Her husband's nurse was calling from New York to alert her to the fact that Wilson had disappeared. Tempted to skip the ceremony to rush to New York to look for him she thought better of it. If she missed the signing ceremony, the press would want to know why. Immediately after the ceremony was over, Perkins went to the train station and boarded the next train for New York. There, assisted by others, she found Wilson and settled him back into the sanitarium.
1942 Wilson wrote a letter and apparently sent to a number of people looking for work. Ashe remained out of work.
1951 While Perkins was still with the Civil Service Commission, her husband, Paul Wilson, now 76 years old, came to live with her in Washington. Ashe was not the stimulating intellectual and social equal he had been when they had first met some 40 years earlier in New York. Ashe had few interests now and had become very dependent on her.
1952 Sixteen days after his 77Th birthday, Wilson died. Reviewing old financial records, confirmed her recollection that his last day of paid employment had been in early 1929.
_____________________________________________________

Just reading this tells us Frances not only loved her husband dearly, she cared for him and respected him,  so much so she did not accept Roosevelt's offer until she consulted with her husband. Imagine how it had to be for her when she got the call he was missing at one of the most important times of her career, the signing ceremony of the SSA. To avoid the press invading into her husband's personal and medical life she stayed for the signing when her first desire was to go directly to search for him.  

I personally think when ever you have a member of your family stricken with a life long illness of any kind, no matter how much you do for them, you always feel you haven't done enough.  

 

[mabel1015j]

Maryboree - yes, ER had sev'l close friends, and in at least one case, a business partner who were lesbians and therefore there has been much speculation about her sexual preference. The only reason it is important is for lesbians to feel some pride and comfort in the fact that she might have been gay. This is true for any person of history about which there might be speculation. In regards to her importance to American history or what she accomplished, it is not important.

 She gave many Americans enjoyment and information thru her magazine columns and radios shows and gave the world an insight into her husband, who "allowed" her to disagree w/ him, publically, on more than one occasion..........I think the last president who had the political courage to allow  his wife to disagree w/ him in public was Gerald Ford. Imagine the brouhaha that would have hit the media if Hillary had voiced a different opinion than Bill or Laura a different opinion than George. We know that Barbara had disagreements w/ George H.W. on a couple of issues, including abortion, but once she was first lady, she didn't talk about it. ER WROTE her opinions in magazine columns a couple times a month and spoke them on her own radio show.

After FDR died Harry Truman appointed her to the Human Relations Commission of the developing United Nations and she, w/ encouragement from Alice Paul, included "men AND women" in the Declarations of Human Rights and persuaded the Russian representative to go along w/ it.  She became an influential political strategist for both Adlai Stevenson and JFK, who went to her to ask for her enorsement, but she stayed loyal to STevenson in the primary. That was why i said she really came into her own after FDR died.

There's a good book about that time of ER's life: "CAsating Her Own Shadow: ER and the Shaping of Postwar Liberalism" by Allida Black, a professor of history at Geo Washington Univ.

The Severn book that i was reading about FP didn't mention what Paul's illness was, just occaisionally mentioned her "disabled husband." .....................jean

[maryboree]

Thanks, Mabel, for the follow-up on ER.  From what I read in these discussions, I think that FDR was very lucky to have these 2 important women in his life. Actually, he had 3 (I forgot his mother who was also a very strong individual.).........Mary   P.S.  I'll have to check out "Casting Her Own Shadow:"

[bellamarie]

Jean,  The Severn book that i was reading about FP didn't mention what Paul's illness was, just occaisionally mentioned her "disabled husband."

That's interesting, in my book it covered quite a bit about his illnes and had FP quoting as I  posted above about his illness.  Also it says, "Wilson died unexpectedly, after a long illness," according to the obituary notices. 

[bellamarie]

I went for a google search and a yahoo search on Paul Caldwell Wilson and it always gave me articles of Frances Perkins and their marriage.  I wonder why I could not find anything single on just him?  Here is what I did find, which is very little. 

Frances Perkins married Paul Caldwell Wilson in 1913. She kept her birth name, defending her right to do so in court.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Perkins

Perkins retained her own surname when she married Paul Caldwell Wilson in 1913. Wilson, an economist in the New York Bureau of Municipal Research, was institutionalized many years for chronic mental illness. Throughout her long career, Perkins sheltered her husband and their daughter Susanna from the public eye.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/nny/perkinsf/profile.html

On September 26, 1913 she married Paul Caldwell Wilson, an economist for the Bureau of Municipal Research in New York. During the 1920's Wilson suffered increasingly from mental illness. From 1930 until his death in 1952, he spent most of his time in institutions.

http://asteria.fivecolleges.edu/findaids/mountholyoke/mshm139_bioghist.html
_____________________________

My book seems to cover quite a bit more than normal, but then they are quotes that was taken from books Frances wrote herself.  I would say she did a good job keeping Paul out of the public eye.

[Ella Gibbons]

GOSH, WE HAVE OPINIONS ON A VARIETY OF SUBJECTS IN THE BOOK, but that's okay, we will all get on the same page when we get to the next chapters which are about WWII and Harry Truman.

A few comments:  JONATHAN, I've never read anything that Sinclair Lewis wrote.  Perhaps I should?  For some - many - reasons I read nonfiction for the most part these day.  Should we nominate one of Lewis' books for discussion?

From Lewis autobiography for the Nobel Foundation - "Main Street, published late in 1920, was my first novel to rouse the embattled peasantry and, as I have already hinted, it had really a success of scandal. One of the most treasured American myths had been that all American villages were peculiarly noble and happy, and here an American attacked that myth. Scandalous. Some hundreds of thousands read the book with the same masochistic pleasure that one has in sucking an aching tooth.

Another comment:  "The fact is that my foreign travelling has been a quite uninspired recreation, a flight from reality. My real travelling has been sitting in Pullman smoking cars, in a Minnesota village, on a Vermont farm, in a hotel in Kansas City or Savannah, listening to the normal daily drone of what are to me the most fascinating and exotic people in the world - the Average Citizens of the United States, with their friendliness to strangers and their rough teasing, their passion for material advancement and their shy idealism, their interest in all the world and their boastful provincialism - the intricate complexities which an American novelist is privileged to portray."

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HAROLD, wasn't that an interesting chapter (27) on impeachment!  As early as 1938 "the House of Representatiaves had created a Special Committee to investigate Un-American Activities.........it generated publicity by charging that Communism posed more danger to the United States than Nazism."

Way before the McCarthy era!  The rumors, the innuendos.  And FDR, a friend (?), pretending to know nothing about FP's possible impeachment!  She turned to religious ideals and inner strength to combat the charges.  One comment is amusing, well,  sad, too.  "You see in some of the members of Congress the makings of one of the most prejudiced, ignorant, irresponsible and inattentive juries imaginable."

And you are so right.  Today, her defense would cost an unimaginable amount of money.

THANK YOU, BELLEMARIE!  That was very interesting about FP's husband, but he was not a newsworthy person and, particularly, with his later life consumed by his illness he was not in the spotlight at all.  And FP did care for him until he died; what a sad marriage for both of them.  The chronology in your book is just about the same as in Kirstin's book.

MARY!  So nice to see you here!  Thanks for the comments on FDR at Hyde Park.  I think I mentioned that I visited there in the spring with a group and did not have enough time to adequately read and explore all that I wanted to.  Actually Hyde Park is the town that his estate, named Springwood, is in, but we all call his home by the town, don't we?  Perhaps that is because he did.

JEAN, that sounds like a good book.  Eleanor had great success in her life after FDR's death, what a lady!

[Ella Gibbons]

Two movies pertaining to events in Kirstin's book.  There are, no doubt, more, but these two I have seen and admired:

Elmer Gantry, based on Sinclair Lewis' book

On the Waterfront - about dockworkers and the corruption in the unions

Have any of you seen any others?

[Kirstin Downey]

Hello all...Many questions about Paul Wilson, I see. Susanna, Frances's daughter, minimized her father's illness to earlier biographers, and even denied to some that he had been ill. She also had exclusive executorial control of all her mother's papers, and had the ability to block a book from being published if she didn't like the way it was developing. She in effect banned several potential biographers from writing about her mother. But after her death in about 2005 I was given access to private family papers, which included medical records concerning Paul and Susanna. They both had bipolar disorder, which made them very difficult to control. Susanna was promiscuous at times, including with people who were wildly inappropriate either by class, age or background, including people that she was able to impress with her connections to the White House. Sad and embarrassing for Frances. Paul drank heavily, went on angry rampages that required a strong male attendant, had at least one affair and gambled away his inheritance. I believe that it is probably unfair to hold Paul's family entirely responsible for this affliction, however, which is why I included the mention of Frances's side as well. John Adam's description of James Otis certainly suggests he had a manic disorder of some kind, though it may not have been organic but caused by a blow to the head.
Kirstin Downey

[Kirstin Downey]

And another movie suggestion, if you can find it: There was a movie version of Ann Vickers, which I was able to find at a film library. But the book is really interesting to read. Frances Perkins's life follows the character of Ann Vickers, almost seems like a mirror, but the book also suggests some other racy stuff, including an affair with a married judge and an abortion. Fascinating to wonder how closely Sinclair Lewis depicted what he knew of Frances Perkins. He tended to be spiteful to women who became successful in their careers, and certainly his book came out just as Frances Perkins reached the apex of her life as newly-appointed secretary of labor.

Interestingly, also, Ann Vickers is portrayed as kissing women, "lingeringly" but is not presented as a lesbian.

Kirstin
 

[Ella Gibbons]

HELLO KIRSTIN.  Thanks!

How very sad for Frances Perkins!  Both husband and daughter.  Is it any wonder she submerged her life into her work and politics!  

But you indicate in the book, Kirstin, that FP spoiled the child, wanting everything for Susanna, giving everything to see that she was accepted in the best society had to offer.  A debutante ball, wasn't it?  Only psychiatrists would be able to tell us if this had anything to do with Susanna's behavior.

I just came in to post that I found your book, KIRSTIN, and bought it at the Hyde Park library.  I think that's where I saw it for the first time, but memory is not dependable.  Is it there?

[Ella Gibbons]

After spending 10 years with Frances Perkins, KIRSTIN, do you feel as if she is a member of the family?  Or maybe you know her better than a member of the family?  Hahahahahaa

Would you have liked her as a sister, an aunt, a grandmother?

[Kirstin Downey]

Yes, it is on sale at the FDR Library at Hyde Park. I spoke there in June. They told me they have sold many copies. The book is also for sale at Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble, Borders, and at independent bookstores. It is also for sale via the afl-cio website. The publisher didn't do much to promote it, which is sadly common in the publishing business today, so sales are spreading mostly by word of mouth and following my speaking engagements. Anything you all can do to mention it to bookstores in your area would be much appreciated!!

Many libraries are stocking the book now but people have reported to me that it has been popular enough that there are often waiting lists for it.

Another happy bit of news: The book has been selected by the Library of Congress for the National Festival of Books, (it was one of only about a dozen history and biography books chosen for 2009) and so it will be featured on C-Span again in September, which should help with sales, too! By the way, if any of you live in the Washington DC area, I will be speaking about it on September 25 and 26, on the Capitol mall, and it would be great if you showed up so I could say hello.
 Kirstin

[Kirstin Downey]

Yes, actually I LOVE Frances Perkins after spending so much time learning all about her!!  A friend of mine painted a picture of her and I have it hanging in the upstairs hallway, as though she were a favorite grandmother. I also love her grandson, Tomlin Coggeshall, who is a wonderful man. He is working on a project to convert the family homestead into a think tank and retreat center. The executive director of the project is Barbara Burt, and think she will be joining us on this book chat at some point this month.

The Economist magazine reviewed my book last month and it was a good review but they noted that it seemed that I had become too much of a fan of Frances Perkins. I laughed when I read that. She was such a great person that ANYONE would be a fan after studying her life! I learned so much that I think it has changed me forever.

Kirstin

[bellamarie]

Kristin,  Thank you so much for your posts.  Nothing is more rewarding to a reader as to have the insight and words spoken to them directly from the author. 

I wondered why when I searched dilegently for anything on Paul Wilson it only gave me links to Frances Perkins and only one liners, such as I posted above about their marriage and a hint of his mental illness.  Having a daughter with bi polar disorder, I recognized the symptoms immediately.  It is very difficult for someone near and dear to you to be afflicted with this genetic disorder.  I was not surprised to hear the daughter had it also, since it is passed down generations through the genetic makeup.  I too tended to spoil my daughter shamelessly, possibly because of the disorder.  I saw the struggles she had even in her childhood before we were aware of the diagnosis, and I over compensated to say the least.  Today she is 37 yrs old, has a husband who loves her unconditionally, as I feel Frances did Paul and Susanne, and I still have a tendency to overlook and spoil her when we are together.  She lives in Florida, I in Ohio so distance is possibly better for her and me. I've had to do extensive research on this disorder and learn about it quickly when I got a phone call from her husband she was admitted to a psychiatric hosptial in a nearby town they lived in Georgia at the time.  Packing my bags, jumping on a plane and rushing to a hosptial with terror in me from the unkown is something I will never forget.  My faith is all I had at that time and it sustained me to ask the right questions, to get her released and to bring her back home with me to get the care she needed.  It was an uphill battle and reading the part where her husband came up missing was chillling to me because I  lived it.  God gives us an inner strength to deal with loved ones in times like this.

Frances sounds like someone I would have loved to have as a friend or grandmother.  She would have truly taught self confidence, self worth, self esteem and preserverance to her female family and friends, not only by words but surely by example.  I read her parents did not give her much positive self image when growing up.  Telling her to wear that silly hat to hide her features.  But she turned that into a fashion statement. As FDR would say, "Bully for her!"

The impeachment chapter I found was the most interesting read of my book.  How she was attacked and how she was able to withstand it was amazing.  I notice I have used that word quite a bit in this discussion.  Seems sometimes the only place you can find your peace is with your faith.  Without it, could you imagine how lost she would have been at that point in her life?

Kirstin, rest assured I am spreading the word of your book to everyone I talk to these days.  My library has it on back order still.  I will not give up even if I have to purchase it.  I would love to come hear you at Washingtom mall in Sept.  I'm just not sure my finances will allow it.  Thank you for a wonderful book, and your participation in our discussion.

[HaroldArnold]

I note that Frances’s daughter Susanna Wilson has left very little Web imprint.  Google found no real Web sites under her Susanna Wilson name.  In fact the only real site was the following Time Magazine report on her marriage to Hare, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,788216,00.html

There were of course many contacts under her married Susanna Wilson Hare that followed her life through her divorce from Hare.  Ironically the divorce seems related to Hare’s attraction to french refugee artists whose visa for entry to the U.S. was approved by Frances.  The last real information on Susanna is Chapter 30 that will come next week which describes the situation ending in the divorce. .

I suppose that Susanna is no longer with us today since she would now be in her 90’s, though I wonder about her later life.  The last we here in the book relates to the time of Frances’s death in the 1960’s.  

[ANNIE]

Here's a Wikipedia listing for Mary Harriman Rumsey.  According to this, she died in 1934.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Harriman_Rumsey

[mabel1015j]

Kirstin - congrats on being selected to be on CSPAN, that should be a great promotion for the book.

I have read Main STreet and was surprised at what a feminist lean Lewis had at that period of history. Having grown up in a small town, i think he got that right also.

Ella - I have seen both Elmer Gantry and On the Waterfront. Great movies. EG is on tv quite often, but not On the W, i wonder why that's so?

I wasn't aware that the PWA built the Lincoln Tunnel. We got some very good projects out of that program.

From pg 189 - "A new Nazi-controlled labor union............became a gigantic propaganda machine churing out reeducation materials."  and "No major German industrialist opposed Hitler's attack on organized labor" DAH! ,,,,,,,,,,,Actually, this book is a good reminder that institutions will work very hard to protect their own interests, including constant propaganda to reinforce their side of the story. As people living in a democracy, we must always be aware of that and learn to read information from various sources. The internet has facilitated many negative - IMO - activities, but it also gives us easy access to many sides of many issues.

If i was still teaching colllege history, i would use this book for the students to understand the period, but also to understand how institutions/ policy/legislation/politics work - or not - in our country...................A great example is the way Downey lays out the immigration issue.....................yes, a superficial response to the opening up the country to suffering Jews is to say "of course, we should have taken in as many as needed to be rescued." The reality was that we had 25% unemployment. As a president of the total society,  how do you balance those two events? Even some American Jews were giving him advice that they didn't want an influx that may initiate more anti-Semetism. ................. what a quandry................issues seldom are as simple as the little bit of information that we get would make them seem.........................that's why these "polls" that news networks do these days, really tick me off........................."should we ................(some policy issue)" or "did so-and-so do the right thing on (this) issue?" ..................................the public seldom has enough info to make a deliberative decision about the question. So, they are insignificant. I'd like news stations to give us news, not poll their audience about the news.............................jean  

[mabel1015j]

I don't mean to filibuster, but no one has posted since i did at 1 pm and i have been reading along.

I think it was Ella who mentioned that ER had been obstructed, in having Jews immigrate, by someone in the State Dept - info from something we had read before. Yes, Ella, his name was Breckinridge Long and he was actually the person responsible for helping the immigration! There had been an agreement that 567 persons, whose names had been supplied could be admitted and all the paperwork had been done for their visas. After 3 months, only 15 visas had been issued. Long was deliberately obstructing the process...........but that's in 1940, so i'll come back to that when we get there.

"The more things change the more they stay the same." I have forgotten how to state that in the French, where  it came from, i think, but i keep thinking it. There's a statement that some of the labor leaders "mused aloud about what they suspected to be a sexual relationshp btwn Frances and Roosevelt; her close friendship w/ the president made her character somewhat questionable to them." ..............Recently, i mentioned to my sister that i was reading a bio of Condalezza Rice and she told me that her "group" tho't Condi and Geo W. were having a "thing." I told her that from what i was reading about Condi's close friendship w/ the whole family, including Laura, i didn't think that was true.......... but i think that is almost always the speculation about women and men who work closely together and get along well while doing so.

Downey's 2 chapters on the labor movement at the time are 2 of the best i have ever read about that subject, concise and interesting.

On page 209 - "....376,000 textile workers around the country went out on strike. ...a dramatic display of discontent over the stretch-out system, in which workers were asked to work longer and harder for less money." ...............isn't that what's been happening again for the last 2 or 3 decades and, ironically, the labor movement has lost large numbers of members and esteem over that same period?

pg 210 - FP "told Walter Chrysler and Alfred Sloan, of GM, that they should blame themselves ( for a `drop in auto sales and once happy workers growing restive and confrontational), since they had compounded their own problems by their practice of hiring only the young. 'The companies had a positive rule against hiring anybody after 40 and of keeping anybody in their employment after 45.'" Philip Foner in his volume about Women and the American Labor Movement, writes that "employers set a maximum age for women applicants considerably lower than the maximum set for men. Helen Baker's survery of the defense industries in the fall of 1941 revealed that 30 - 35 was the average maximum age for women applicants. Despite labor supply problems ( as the war geared up) many employers refused to consider women over 40 for jobs." Even in a 1944 census , the Women's Bureau found that over 3/4 of the women in the labor force were under 45...and that of the 61/2 million who had entered the labor force after Pearl Harbor, over 80% were under 45. Thank goodness those days are over with!

You may notice that i throw in a lot of references to women in history, that's been my avocation for 40 years and i know that many of us over 50 got NO women's history in our public education - except that Betsy Ross made the first American flag, which probably isn't true anyway.     So, i hope you don't mind, my "teacher-persona" is still active.
I've got a big piece of women's history to write about the GM strike of '36 & '37 that i think you will find interesting, but i'll do that another time and let someone else "talk."........................jean

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, JEAN, keep talking, I want to go back over your post; such interesting things you are talking about and from our history teacher!  Couldn't we all have a great f2f discussion about the book.  We are so limited here, but having a great time regardless!

I'm off to bed right now as I must get up early in the morning; will be gone out of town most of the day.

BUT I HAD TO SAY CONGRATULATIONS TO KIRSTIN.  WHAT AN ANNOUNCEMENT!  YOUR BOOK HAS BEEN SELECTED BY THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FOR THE BOOK FESTIVAL!

TOASTS ALL AROUND!

There is something to tell you, Kirstin, about the Festival and our part in it which would take too long at the moment.  Later.

And we may have - just may have - a couple of our members of SeniorLearn attend your presentation at the Festival!  Later.

FOR NOW, I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU!  YOU WROTE A GREAT BOOK.  AND WE CHOSE WELL, DIDN'T WE ALL!     Later.

[JoanK]

That is really interesting.

" but I think that is almost always the speculation about women and men who work closely together and get along well while doing so".

I remember that well from years of working as a woman in a man's field. Fortunately, my husband wasn't that stupid.

I remember once, a male colleagues and I went to a professional meeting held at night. Going home about 10 the car broke down. The man who was driving went to a nearby house to call for assistance. His face turning red, he said "maybe you'd better stay in the car -- We're each married, and I don't want people getting the wrong impression." I remember how shocked I felt -- naive me, it had never occured to me.

Between that and being lesbians, professional women can't win!

[ANNIE]

Wow, we are really getting more history here with a history teacher and another lady who didn't connect the dots concerning her travel with a male cohert.  This is more than I bargained for and I am eating it all up.  I was living a much different life during the '30's and '40's as child just growing up, having a great time and unaware of all these problems.  Well, except one.  To get a decent job during the end of 1930, my grandfather was forced to join the union at Link Belt Co.  And I do remember him saying over and over that the unions were needed back in the 1890's (Pullman & ??) but they were  not needed as we progressed in this country.

[HaroldArnold]

Something should be said about the so called Court Packing scheme developed by Attorney General Homer Cummings and endorsed by FDR in the mid 1930.

New Deal Executive policy and Legislative measures were never popular with the conservative Supreme Court.  The NRA and other Roosevelt programs were declared unconstitutional by the court whose justices for the most part were appointed by Republican Presidents going back to Taft.   This was most frustrating for Frances and the Roosevelt Administration to see measures that they deemed essential to economic recovery terminated as unconstitutional.    A plan was developed by Roosevelt’s Attorney General Homer Cummings to pack the Supreme Court with up to 6 additional Justices appointed by FDR if seated justices refused to retire at age 70.  This plan seem a blatant attempt by the executive branch in collusion with the Congress against the Judiciary the third supposedly co-equal branch of the Federal Government.   Not only Republicans, but many democrats, Frances included, were shocked at the proposal.  Yet FDR seemed determined to go ahead with the plan.

Frances apparently realized there were easier less radical ways of changing the complexion of the Court.   This came to her at a social function at which Frances had a conversation with Justice James McReynolds..  The Justice asked Frances during the dinner if the President was considering breaking up the Supreme Court.  Frances replied, “I sure don’t know how he would do it.  Perhaps you could give me a hint.”  The Justice laughed saying “O well there are some who would be glad to retire.” 

Though FDR continued to advocate the radical plan to pack the court the plan died after a series of changes made it unnecessary.  Congress in March 1963 passed legislation guaranteeing the full pay retirement of Supreme Court justices.  More important several of the existing justices changed their stance.  In deciding the constitutionality of a state law regulating works hours with minimum wage provisions by a 5-4 decision.  Chief Justice Evans Hughes and Justice Owen Roberts had switched their vote.  This was a landmark change that was followed by the retirement of several Justices that were replaced with FDR appointees.  The Complexion of the court was quickly changed to a FDR friendly court that lingered in power long after FDR had left the Presidency.  The need for the planned radical change that would have changed forever the position of the court as a co-equal third branch of the government became unnecessary and abandoned if not entirely forgotten.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa081400a.htm  Click the preceding link for a very brief historical comment on the Supreme Court.

[serenesheila]

Well, I am way behind in my reading.  I have had a busy couple of weeks.  So, I will read the final chapters this week.  When the discussion ends, I will go back and read the chapters I haven't read.

Today, I read all of the comments everyone has been making.  Very interesting.  A few years ago I read a book about ER and the people in her life.  As I remember, she was suspected of having sexual relationships with both men, and women.  So, I guess she was bisexual.  I cannot remember the name of that book.  Perhaps the title will come to me.

Sheila

[Ella Gibbons]

Such good stories and commenets.  THANK YOU, JEAN, JOANK, ANN AND SHEILA.

Women's History, Jean!  Is it still being taught in college?  It was for many years beginning with the sixties, I think.  Didn't they call it Women's Studies rather than history?  Your interest in the subject is great, tell us more.

Weren't women laid off or fired after WWII  due to the veterans needing the jobs upon their return home?

"Chief Justice Evans Hughes and Justice Owen Roberts had switched their vote.  This was a landmark change that was followed by the retirement of several Justices that were replaced with FDR appointees.  The Complexion of the court was quickly changed to a FDR friendly court that lingered in power long after FDR had left the Presidency.  The need for the planned radical change that would have changed forever the position of the court as a co-equal third branch of the government became unnecessary and abandoned if not entirely forgotten." - Harold

Good summary of that whole episode.  Thanks!

We shall begin the final chapters of the book today!  War clouds form!  "Many Americans were still embittered by the pointless carnage of WWI and wanted the United States to steer clear of yet another European morass."

BEGINNING WITH CHAPTER 28 CONTINUING TO THE END OF THE BOOK.  LET'S DISCUSS THEM.  I'LL PUT SOME IDEAS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION IN THE HEADING LATER TODAY.

[Ella Gibbons]

There are some questions in the heading and the first one is about immigration. There were big problems during the 30's and 40's.  Are there problems with it today?  What are they?  What can be done?  Does your attitude change depending on the section of the country you live in?

[Jonathan]

Page 302. 'Yesterday afternoon I spent long hours at the Lincoln Memorial hoping that would give me guidance.' Caroline O'Day.

Isn't that touching. Later, 'Caroline voted against removing the arms embargo, infuriating Roosevelt. The stress and sadness undermined her health. O'Day fell ill and left Washington...(and) never returned to her congressional  position in Washington....' p302

Presidents have been known to seek strength at the Memorial in the small hours of the morning. Did Frances ever find her way there? Frances was tough. A real survivor. Congressional battles. Smear campaigns. Lobbying pressures. Losing the Immigration Bureau. If the Bridges affair was a mist, the refugee problem was a fog. And for me the ILO thing is very murky. She found a wartime home for it in Canada. How very interesting. I'm called away to dinner.

[mabel1015j]

Our internet service has been unavailable for 36 hours. I just got back on, i'll be back soon to comment..................jean

[mabel1015j]

FDR was great at escaping direct controversy, wasn't he? He left sev'l people hanging out to dry, on their own. I've tried to decide thru the years if i would have liked him. I guess if all i was interested in was being a friend, playing cards and having a martini, he would have been great. But to do policy w/ him appears to have been dangerous at times. He did support FP at some Cabinet mtgs against the other SEcretaries, but when she really needed him, he stepped back from her, apparently to see which way the "wind" would finally blow. I know that he was deceptive about preparing for the war and about sending weaponry to England. That is always presented as having ended up being a good thing. Other stories of people leaving his office thinking he was on their side of an issue and then they discovered he was advocating for the other side, are numerous. He obviously was a man who did not like to be in the center of conflict or disagreement.  FP, on the other hand, seems to have done very well in conflict situations.........i am amazed at how often she makes quick decisions and gets something settled w/ perserverance.

I looked in the index of No Ordinary Time, the Goodwin book of the Roosevelts druing the war years, FP is mentioned 18 times. Usually she is being quoted talking about someone else, particularly from "The Roosevelt I Knew."

I know the General Motors strike of '36 and '37 is a few chapters back, but i tho't you might like to hear the importance of women in that strike and many others that followed. Of course, they were not women who were members of the UAW - women were not welcome in most national unions of that time. They were "The Women's Auxiilary." It started w/ about 50 women relatives of the men who decided they would "sit-down" in the Fisher Plants on DEc 30 and not leave. The women fed the strikers daily, set up a first-aid station, where they nursed casualties, distributed literture, ran around-the-clock picket lines and took charge of publicitiy. They ran a day car center for the children of striking and auxiliary mothers, established a welfare committe and a speaker's bureau and visited wives who opposed the sit-down to try to convince them to support their husbands.

These were no small tasks. The reposnsibility for feeding sev'l thousand workers, both inside and outside the plants was enormous. One day's food supply included 500 pounds of meat, 100 lbs of potatoes - i wonder if they peeled them? - 300 loaves of bread, 100lbs of coffee, 200 lbs of sugar, 30 gals of milk and 4 cases of evaporated milk. 200 people, mostly women, prepared this food. (from Foner's book)

On Jan 21 the NYT's announced the formation of a new automotive srike org, the Women's Emregency Brigade, composed of women who had husbands, sons or brothers in the GM strike. It's purpose was to be on hand in any emergency and to stand by their men, to form a picket line around the men and "if the police want to fire, then they'll just have to fire into us." At one point the women lured the police to Chevrolet plant 9 at Flint, so that male strikers could seize Plant 4, the key to the motor assembly division. When Plant 9 was tear-gassed, the Brigade broke windows in the plant so that the strikers could breathe.

For 44 days the GM workers and "their womenfolk" fought the giant corporation, on Feb 11 the governor announced that peace terms had been arranged. The agreement recognized the UAW as the bargaining agency, agreed not to interfere w/ the right of its employees to belong to that union and that the strikers would get theri jobs back.
The women's auxiliary had a song which i love - to the tune of Marching thru GA:
The women got together and they formed a mighty throng
Every worker's wife and mom and sister will belong
They will fight beside the men to help the cause along
Shouting the Union forever
I wonder how many parodies there have been created to the tune of M Thru GA?
Ironically, women were still not very welcome in the AFL and only began to have true membership in a national union when the CIO came into exitence.

PBS has a great documentary on the GM strike, that was were i first heard about it.

The union movement has been enormously important in getting some leverage for workers, thanks in large part to FP, but as w/ any movement/ idea that gets lost in it's power, some union leaders became extreme and therefore lost the popularity and favor of the majority of the people. Unfortunately, few workers today know the history of labor and don't realize how much sweat, tears and lives went into getting them the 40 hr week and vacation and sick days. ............

I am astonished at FP's stamina. Just doing the job she had was stressful enough, but to have survived the illnesses of her husband and dgt, the death of her dear Mary and the threats of being impeached bringing her disappointment in FDR's lack of support, my GOSH! The woman was made of steel!.................. jean

[mabel1015j]

To answer some of Ella's questions - yes, women's studies are still being taught in colleges and in some high schools today. Women's history is generally a part of what is called "women's studies" which also includes such topics as women in literature and /or movies; the psychology of women; women in sociology; women  in science/math, etc. There are Women Studies majors at some universityies.

Yes, women were told to "go home" after the war. That has been true after every war when women have stepped up and often into the shoes of the men who had gone off to fight, and sometimes as soldiers themselves, particularly as spies or in resistence movements. Every American war, perhaps every war any where, has had such women.  After WWII it was a cause taken up by the whole society to get women back into the home. Think of the movies that came out in the 30's and the 40's, who were the great women characters? Rosalind Russell, Katherine Hepburn, etc as strong, decisive women, going toe-to-toe w/ men, often in non-traditional roles. AFter the war? Doris Day and Pillow Talk, Marilyn Monroe as the sex bomb, women characters often ditsy and incompetent in any role. Even the stories in magazines changed. Before the war, Ladies Home Journal, etc. wrote about Amelia Earhart and women engineers and professors. Eleanor Roosevelt told the world what she was doing thruout the world, important activities. After the war they wrote about wives of famous men and society figures who were going to clubs and social events. And told women how to fold sheets and get stains out of their laundry and how to cook pot roasts. I have a video of the 50's that i used in my history classes that was used in "home ec" classes, remember those? Girls are told by the women's voice-over that they should manage their time so that they had time to shower, dress and put on make-up before their husband got home from work (after they had cooked the pot roast and prepared his drink, of course)
And the children and the wife should only give Dad pleasant conversation, there was to be no emotional outbursts to Dad during dinner. He needed to unwind from his hectic day! ..................yes every piece of society was teaching women how to go back into her domestic role. ...................................some of them wanted to do that, but some of them didn't..................jean

[ANNIE]

Ella,
In our country, maybe those of us in the middle think that we won't have many immigrants living around us so we don't think it will be a problem for us.  We seem to forget that our ancestors were the immigrants long ago. And in my case, the Irish and the Germans weren't accepted on the East coast, so they were sent to Ohio, down in Hamilton County, part of Cincinnati.  That was the designated area for those two groups of immigrants.  Its why I had a German grandfather married to my Irish grandmother.  Its why my mother whose Irish folks ended up in Lafayette, IN. married one of those German/Irish boys.  

But, now its my understanding from having read "The Middle of Everywhere" plus looking at our city in Ohio, that the Immigration and Naturalization Department directs different groups to different parts of the country and it would behoove us to help them assimilate.

In her book, Mary Pipher, shows the fears that these people have of the most basic things we accept as nothing.  In her town of Lincoln, NE,  they welcomed Bosnians, Sudanese, Somalis, Napalese, Sierra Leones,  Ethiopians and Russians.  They formed committees to help these people learn English, how to rent an apartment, where to shop for the groceries and other sundries, plus how to catch a bus and where to look for jobs and what schools their children would attend school and where they can go to the doctor.

After reading about the shenanigans that were put forth to prevent the German Jews from immigrating to the US,  I began to see how politics can bog things down.  Good for FP, in getting a great number of the people into the states, by treating over 200,000 of them as tourists.  I understand that we had a high number of unemployed here but why didn't we see the handwriting on the wall as to the treatment of the Jews in Europe.  I was surprised at the fear of letting them immigrate by the German Jewish citizens already living here.   And, where what were the European countries doing about the problem??
 
  
 

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, ANN, for your post. You may be be interested in this clickable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States

There is a lot there I did not know about immigration

"Isn't that touching. Later, 'Caroline voted against removing the arms embargo, infuriating Roosevelt. - JONATHAN

You don't want to do that!  Infuriate a president, it can be dangerous to your health.

JEAN said - "FDR was great at escaping direct controversy, wasn't he?"  But he could make it tough for you!  

Somehow, maybe with humor, Frances was able to withstand all the pressures and the stress of the people she had to deal with!  

FP and FDR had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?    

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[HaroldArnold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Love_Goodwin_O%27Day  The preceding link will lead to the Wikipedia bio sketch of Carolyn O’Day.  The truth is I had never heard of her until I read this book, but that does not mean I had not heard of the strong isolationist movement in the U.S. during the pre-war period.  In 1938-40 I was in Junior High School (Middle School today) following each of the major events leading the world to war.  My class was always anti Hitler strongly pro English-French though that did not mean we were immediately interventionist.  Looking back I think FDR  (and Frances also) early on fully realized the basic evil of the Nazi regime and by the summer of 1940 all knew that England and France could not handle it.  I think the Japanese did the world a favor in their attack on Pearl Harbor.  In an instance they united the Country in a necessary war.   The next day Hitler declaring War on the U.S fully committing, a united U.S. to the War. 

Frances’s progression and early recognition of the evil of Nazism were the obvious result of her front row seat observing the active Nazi persecution and resulting plight of German Jews. 

[Ella Gibbons]

HAROLD, had you ever heard of Frances Perkins before this book?

What do you think of the relationship between FDR and Frances Perkins?  It was unusual for its day certainly!

Did your class admire FDR, do you remember?

But along with FDR's toughness, he must have possessed a lot of self-confidence to promote a woman and, particularly, as head of labor realizing that the working men would not believe a woman could handle the job.