Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Woman Behind the New Deal:      The Life of Frances Perkins,           FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience                by Kirstin  Downey Links: Frances Perkins Center Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor Jane Addams [Frances Perkins Speech

Discussion August   l -  8     August  9 - 15   August 16 - 22     August 23 - 31

Schedule Chapters 1-9 Chapters 10-18 Chapters 19-27 Chapters 28-38

FOR CONSIDERATION


FPerkins and FDRoosevelt had a very unusual relationship that was beneficial to both.  What accounted for it?  

What do you think is meant by a “good war?”

Is war a male preserve?  

Roosevelt promoted conflict between people and agencies.  “A little rivaly is stimulating, you know.  It keeps everybody going to prove that he is a better fellow than the next man.  It keeps them honest too.” - (pg.360 The Roosevelt I Knew)  Is this a good way to govern?  Or to lead?

Truman came in the back door, so to speak.  How did it happen?

FP disclosed her anti-Catholism when she spoke against Jimmy Byrnes (pg.335).  Was there a lot of prejudice against Catholics in the US and why?

Who should have the power to decide if a president is ill and cannot perform the duties of the office?  Should FDR have been allowed to go to the Yalta Conference?  Why not send VP Truman in his place?

“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?

“Truman faced a daunting task.  FDR thought him so insignificant that he never bothered to share the details about the war or foreign affairs with him” (pg.346)  The presidency of the USA is one of great power and we should never allow this situation to happen again.  How can it be prevented?


Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold

[PatH]

Bellamarie, is there a link you can give us to your poems?  If not, you could maybe post them in the Poetry discussion.

[mabel1015j]

Harold's post got me thinking - in talking about the war years, I tho't of his choice of Eisenhower as Cmdr of the European forces and i tho't FDR seemed to make good choices of people for various jobs - starting w/ FP of course........... .......jean

[Ella Gibbons]

THANK YOU, JOANP, for posting the picture of SeniorLearn members at the 2000 National Bookfest!  Although she is modest, Joan is the primary person responsible for our membership and our presence in Laura Bush’s wonderful, inspiring Bookfest.

And Joan and Pat will be in Washington listening to our author when she gives her presentation about this book.  I’m so sorry I can’t be there; prior obligations prevent it but I’m so happy for you, KIRSTIN!!!

It is an honor to be chosen!  

 Your book is such a good one, well written, historically factual, and an important book for women, for historians, and for the average reader who is interested in a good biography.

We hope to hear a few more remarks from you before we close this discussion.  What did we leave out of our discussion?  Are you working on another book?

HAROLD, thanks for the post about FDR.   “decisions made during the late months of the War set the stage for the 45 years of Cold War that followed”  

Is there any way that could have been prevented?  Do you think FDR’s ill health was a fact in those decisions?  

BELLEMARIE, thanks for all your remarks..  And I hope you can be in Washington to meet with our author in September.  DO TRY!

JEAN, you are right, I think.  He had that ability, that would make a good book possibly or maybe there is one on choices of leaders in wartime..  We’ve experienced a few in our lives and there have been good and bad.  

Has anyone read a book about Eisenhower’s presidency?  I never thought a military leader would necessarily make a good president; actually the opposite, but??

[Ella Gibbons]

I've always rather admired Truman who felt his inadequacies for the task of being president at such a terrible time in the nation's history.  After a popular president died, faced with a foe that was pledged to fight to the end.  What decisions the man had to make, but then I read in this book of his attitude towards Frances Perkins and women in general.

Women would inhibit deliberations in Congress, men would need to restrain their comments.  

However, underneath his public persona, Truman had respect for and admired Frances Perkins; they were friends.

We hear that often when a new administration takes over.  A president brings into his appointments his friends, those whom he trusts to help make decisions.

Thanks, JONATHAN, for your post; for your "I HAD A PROGRAM IN MIND" title.  Yes, I agree.   Everything on her list was accomplished except health insurance.  "Dear Fellix...."  

We are still at it!

TRUMAN WILL BE REMEMBERED, I think, not only for the atomic bomb decision but for the Marshall Plan.

WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT COMMUNISM, both abroad and in America?

[bellamarie]

“Truman wold not have been Frances’ choice for president.” (341)  Was she snobbish?

“his (Truman) only Washington experience was as a one-term senator.”  We’ve had two presidents since then with this profile.  Could it be that no experience in Washington is an asset?

I don't feel lack of or no experience in Washington is an asset, I feel the President is as good as his advisors and his core values and causes, along with his prior experience,  and his knowledge of knowing what the people want.  A President is elected on his visions of where he wants to take the country, and generally when they are campaigning you hear them make promises to go with what the people want.  Experience is an absolute asset to the Presidency.  Its like any other job that requires a leader, a CEO, etc.  People are looking for and expecting their leader to have enough experience to be able to deal with the problems that arise, if you have had little to no experience in a leadership role, it would seem you are going to lack the skills and knowledge of making good decisions and strong decisions when needed to.  I feel we are facing that problem today.   You learn good and bad through your experinces in life.  Experience is like knowledge and wisdom.  Once you do something you can determine the best results and what not to try if it fails.    In some jobs you can go in and learn as you go, in the Presidency, we don't have time for on the job training.

[Ella Gibbons]

Hi BELLEMARIE.  It's all debatable isn't it?  I see you do not have an email address and you have stated you live in Ohio.  Where?  I live in Ohio, also, and know another SeniorLearner who lives close.  Do email me!  Perhaps we could meet someday?

As JoanP mentioned we were priviliged to hear David McCullough speak about his book TRUMAN and here is our discussion of his huge book which took a couple of months.

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Truman.html

You will notice David McCullough in the picture of some of us at the Bookfest.  I was manning the booth when the picture was taken, so am not included but I saw Laura Bush walk  down the aisle of the white tent where our booth was located.

Great fun!

[PatH]

Yes, I'll be at the National Book Festival.  My understanding is that it will run all day on Saturday, Sept 26, so I have a month to figure out details of timing.  I'm looking forward to it--unlike many of you, I have never been to one.

[bellamarie]

Ella,  Hi BELLEMARIE.  It's all debatable isn't it?

Yes, Ella it sure is all debatable, that is what makes this whole discussion group setting work.  I do have a tendency to play devil's advocate just to throw a bit of spice in every now and then.  I've been alerted by our last author, Annie Barrows, while she enjoys it, I take the risk of leaving my self open to a barrage of attacks.  lolol  It's all in fun and we sure do respect, learn and share alot.  I will email you with my address, image getting to meet in person one day!  How fun it would be. 

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding Frances’s billing as FDR’s moral conscience in the title:  Kristin, was this term in the title in your original draft or was it the product of the publisher’s marketing staff?   In reality it has very little substance and as Ella pointed out in message #539 it seems to imply that FDR lacked moral conscience on his own.   It certainly has a fine sound to it diverting attention from its lack of any real substance; it seems very much the type of phrase a marketing staff would add.  Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that! It aroused our interest in the book making it the best seller that it is, quite possibly making this discussion a reality.

[HaroldArnold]

More on U.S.-  England - Russia planning and policy decision making  During WW2.  Early on in 1940 as the German blitzkrieg quickly caused France to surrender and England to stand alone Roosevelt and Churchill began a close relationship  first designed to aid  Britain and after Dec 1941 to prosecute the War.   When the US. Entered the War Russia too was involved so Stalin also became another principal partner.  During 1942 and 1943 key principal decisions included initial concentration on Europe involving sending a large U.S. army to Europe, the appointment of Eisenhower as supreme commander, sending significant material military aid to Russia,  the delay of a western Europe invasion pending the initial effort in North Africa, Sicily and Italy, followed finally on the June 1944 Channel  Normandy landings.  All of these operations went very well; the overall plan was largely the product of Roosevelt and Churchill with Stalin in substantial agreement.

The Change came later in 1944 after American and British forces had liberating most of France and were breaching the German Rhine-Dutch and Belgium defense line.  At this point Stalin became more assertive with plans designed to give Russian Communism control of postwar Eastern Europe.  This is the point when the previous close Anglo American Close alliance began to strain.  At Yalta Roosevelt agreed to hold Allied forces to a division line across north and Central Germany having allowing the Russian Army to continue through Eastern Germany on to Berlin and beyond.  The Russian area included Berlin with provision that Berlin itself was to be divided into 4 zones one each for Russia, England Russia and France.

This is the agreement generally attributed to the 45 year cold war since it gave Russia a strong position controlling Eastern Germany and all of Eastern Europe.  I don’t doubt that FDR health was beginning to deteriorate and may have been a factor in his decision, but there were other reasons for letting the Russian army take Berlin.  The decision certainly saved the American and British Armies something like 100,000 causalities.  The Russian Army certainly took more than 100,000 in their taking of Berlin.  Also even if the Western Army had taken Berlin, the Russians would have had a strong position as the occupier of most or all of the Eastern European Countries meaning a cold war would still have been a post war fact. 

[PatH]

Certainly FDR had a conscience, but I think FP was his moral conscience in a very real way.  He appointed her in part because he knew she would be relentless in pushing for her program to happen, no matter if it got inconvenient politically.  They both thought the program was morally good, but FP wouldn’t let FDR buckle if things got awkward.

FP’s moral character runs as a subtext throughout the whole book.  New England doesn’t have a monopoly on such people, but she is a recognizable New England type—totally upright, with high moral standards, a determination to do the right thing, drawing great strength from a deep religious faith, having a super-strong sense of the importance of doing good for humanity, very stoical and reticent in her personal life.  

She felt he had to go to Yalta, even if sick, because it’s what she would have done.  On pages 338-9 she thinks:

"This is the cross the Lord has laid upon him, and he’s got to expend every ounce of energy he’s got to pull this thing through.  He’s got to do it."

"This is the place he’s called to, and he’s got to do it.  You have to do it because you are there, and you have the responsibility.  And there was no earthly way of saying ‘This man can’t go because he is sick.’ "

When Edith Wilson expresses concern over how bad FDR looks, FP tells her: "He has a great and terrible job to do.  Don’t say a word.  He’s got to do it, even if it kills him.  He’s got to do it."

[Ella Gibbons]

" Kristin, was this term in the title in your original draft or was it the product of the publisher’s marketing staff?   In reality it has very little substance and ....it seems to imply that FDR lacked moral conscience on his own. "  - Harold

That's a good question for Kirstin.  I hope she finds the time to post one more time before the end of our discussion.  

"She felt he had to go to Yalta, even if sick, because it’s what she would have done." - PatH

Oh, yes, she would have; however, she devotes the last chapter of her book THE ROOSEVELT I KNEW to remarks about the ill health of FDR - the period in which FDR, and the big Three, made their world-wide decisions, momentous decisions that are still affecting us today,  at the close of the war.


In looking over the pictures in this section of the book I see so many interesting people.   There is Harriman and Wallace, Truman, even Jack Kennedy.

Which would you have liked to have known?

I was reading a bit about Wallace:

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_A._Wallace" -   "On May 8, 1942, Wallace delivered his most famous speech, which became known by the phrase "Century of the Common Man", to the Free World Association in New York City. This speech, grounded in Christian references, laid out a positive vision for the war beyond the simple defeat of the Nazis. The speech, and the book of the same name which appeared the following year, proved quite popular, but it earned him enemies among the Democratic leadership, among important allied leaders like Winston Churchill, and among business leaders and conservatives.

Wallace spoke out during race riots in Detroit in 1943, declaring that the nation could not "fight to crush Nazi brutality abroad and condone race riots at home."

That last sentence is prophetic; he should have lived to see the 1960's riots and the results.



 


 

[Ella Gibbons]

THE TRUMAN ADMINISTRATION!  We must post a few remarks about this president; the two highlights of his administration that I remember from history courses are, of course, the atom bomb decision, and the MARSHALL PLAN!

The Marshall Plan, we read, was first a vision shared by FDR and Frances.  I never knew that, but the plan left our former enemies in a place where they could enter the world again with their faces turned toward hope, instead of despair as with WWI.

What do you remember about Truman?

[HaroldArnold]

There was a third major decision required of President Truman- the North Korean Invasion of South Korea.   It was a real blitzkrieg beginning June 25, 1950 with the North Korea capturing the South Korean capital, Seoul.  Trueman as President did not hesitate quickly ordering General MacArthur to sent U.S. Army Units from his occupation force in Japan.  There followed a see-saw campaign that That ended with the original 38 Parallel boarder between the Communist North and Capitalist South unchanged.  The op[eration required over several hundred thousand U.S. troops, with over 30,000 U.S  dead and some 100,000 wounded before the war ended.

President Trumans prompt action to block the Communist North's aggression was certain one of the major decision faced by the Truman administration.  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War  Click the link for the Wikipedia account of the Korean War.

 

[mabel1015j]

Only have a minute, but the two other events i think about re: HST are, the GI Bill, which had an enormous impact on the soiety and the economy, and the integration of the armed forces. That decision was neither politically astute or popular w/ the armed forces - but he felt it was appropriate and necessary and made the hard decision, again. When the leader is making decisions we agree w/, we think it is courageous and responsible to make the hard decisions and to stick by them...........we must remember, however, that a similar thing could be said about a man like Hitler - he made hard decisions and stuck by them. It depends on which side of the moral conscience we find the person, doesn't it?

I think there is a book comparing FDR and Hitler - how they were similar and different. They had many similarities, including being deceptive about what they were doing,  and made decisions which were later considered either "the right ones," or "the wrong ones."  Of course, many on the right were convinced that FDR was a dictator and a communist, etc. and was going to destroy the country.

We need to ponder those issues when we say we want a strong, decisive leader, (as long as he/she is making decisions we agree with) - be careful what you ask for.....................................jean

[Ella Gibbons]

Storms are here, I came in to shut down my computer; but  had to take a peek here.

JEAN, WHY WAS THE G.I. BILL CONTROVERSIAL?  I thought it was a very well thought of piece of legialation, giving all veterans a chance for higher education.  Tell me why I am not seeing the whole picture, I am interested!

Oh, yes!  HAROLD, the Korean War.  Terrible!  That and the Vietnam War to follow and the lives destroyed, the awfulness of it!  And we have to ask ourselves what for?  What did it change?  How are peoples' lives better?  

And now.....................

Well, we don't want to get into the history of the last years of the 20th century.  Suffice it to say, it is over!!

Later................

[Jonathan]

'Regarding Frances’s billing as FDR’s moral conscience in the title:'

Harold raises a good point in post 369, and gets a good reply in Pat's 371.

Yes, I can see FP thinking of herself as having played that role in the 'tremendous social evolution and change' (in her own words, p376) of the New Deal measures that were part of her 'program'. She must have felt that it took a lot of prodding and hectoring to keep FDR mission-oriented. The right thing to do was part of her make-up, perhaps reflecting the puritan ethic that Pat brings into the picture so well. Not that FDR was immoral, although as FP tells us along the way, his smile couldn't always be trusted, and she would remember that interview with the president -elect:

'She watched his eyes to make sure he was paying attention and understood the implication of each demand. She braced for his response, knowing that he often chose political expediency over idealism and was capable of callousness, even cruelty.' (Prologue)

FP's New England upbringing was certainly part of her character. But nothing stubborn about her. Occasionally she settled for half a loaf, if that was all she could get.

What can we make of that other NE characteristic that FP knew of, when she talked about... 'that volcanic emotions rest under the surface of the seemingly reserved inhabitants of the state.' p387

I can see many stormy meditations and inner turmoil in her life. And she kept it all hidden.

[bellamarie]

FP's New England upbringing was certainly part of her character. But nothing stubborn about her. Occasionally she settled for half a loaf, if that was all she could get.

She new when to take what she could get at the time, that's a sign of a good negotiator and compromiser.  People are more willing to work with someone like this.  Knowing Frances she would come back and get the rest at a later date.  Like when they voted her piece of legislatin unconstitutional and she already had two hidden in her desk that she knew would pass. I sense, NO, was not a part of her vocabulary when it came to what she wanted.

[JoanK]

I'm slow in finishing up the book. But as a fanatical birder (bird watcher)I was surprised to see in it, one of my favorite bird stories -- the bird who caught a spy and helped launch a presidency.

When Chambers accused Alger Hiss of being a spy, few believed that the shabby slimy Chambers actually knew the urbane sophisticated Hiss. Nixon asked him to tell them anything that would let them know that he had actually talked to Hiss. Chambers said that one day, Hiss was very excited because he had seen a prothonotary warbler.

When Hiss was testifying, he was asked if he had ever seen a prothonotory warbler. He lit up, and said yes. "Do you know the spot?" Now for the first time, people began to believe Chambers -- eventually ruining Hiss and launching the career of Richard Nixon.

"Do you know the spot?" Yes, I do. If you along the towpath on the canal near Washington, at a certain point turn off on a mud trail (ignoring the "no trespassing sign) and follow it along, you come to the pond where prothonotary warblers nest. I still remember waiting for them early one morning twenty years after that trial. And now over fifty years later, when Chambers, Hiss, Nixon, and the Russian "ism" that defined their lives are all dead, I wonder if the prothonetary warblers are still there?

[JoanK]

The Prothonitary warbler:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/ConservationAndScience/MigratoryBirds/Featured_Birds/default.cfm?bird=Prothonotary%20Warbler

[bellamarie]

JoanK, "prothonotary warbler"

How very interesting.  I have beautiful cardinals, hummingbirds, finches, sparrows and bluebirds visit my honeysuckle and array of flowers in my backyard, but never heard of a "prothonotary warbler."  Imagine something like that having such a great importance in history.  You just never know what can launch or bring a politician down.  Thank you for your post.  I learned something new today!!  And anyone brave enough to overlook a do not tresspass sign, enjoy the view.  lol

Thank you for the site,  this is interesting:  Even backyard ponds and swimming pools have attracted prothonotaries occasionally. This special attraction to water may be due to a higher number of decaying trees with nest cavities in flooded areas and the added benefit of lower predation by mammals when the nest-site is located over water.

Since we have an inground pool and all the birds frequent it when the cover is on and standing water is on top, I may just have to take a closer look at those lemon yellow birds flying around.  Afterall, in the early spring we have had frogs mating leaving their tadpole eggs, ducks mating with the mother duck actually leading her little newborn hatched ducklings into our pool, and believe it or not baby possums left behind where they must have fallen off their mother's back during a nightly swim.  Not to mention the bunnies that come and raid my flowerbed and tiny strawberry patch.  My day care kids have adopted and named one particular squirrel who comes every day at lunchtime and we see him out our kitchen window, the kids named him of course, "Mr. Squirrely."  We live in the city, but oh do we ever have our own little sanctuary in our backyard!  My husband and I go out every night and sit on the patio, drink our afternoon coffee and just marvel at nature in its awesome beauty.

[HaroldArnold]

The Economic Recovery-  A measure of its success or faulure 1929 -  1939 and beyond to 1960

The below table of U.S. Gross Domestic Product gives a measure of the success or failure of the 1930's New Deal Economic policy .  It shows the rapid decline of U.S. domestic output from the  103.6 Billion $ to 56.4 B$ in 1933.  After that the New Deal Recovery package brought GDP back to 92.2 B$ in 1939 and 101.4 B$ in 1940.  The 1940 number approaches the 1929 peak.  After 1940 the rearmament program and WW II cut in finally resulting in significant growth achievements that continued with minor cyclical interruptions until the 2008 collapse.  

I think the New Deal recovery plan was too centered on the necessary first aid relief to individuals.  The new jobs created like the CCC  and most of the other federally financed state and local government jobs were low substance pay many resulting in real achievements of lasting national value.   Perhaps the most potentially successful part of the National Recovery Acts was the many industrial codes and federally financed private enterprises like the Floor Finishing company operating out of the garage at my E 16th street address in Houston.  But this was the part that was quickly declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

Comparing this 1930's recovery with the present 2008 -09-20?? recovery,  perhaps by its concentration on saving the Banks and the Financial System the 2009 approach is better situated for recovery of the larger general economy?  Definitely at this point the question mark terminating my last sentence most necessary.   The next few years will tell.  ?.  In any case let us pray that an event of the magnitude of WW II will not be required.

The Source for the Table that follows is:  http://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/downchart_gr.php?year=1925_1960&view=1&expand=10&units=p&fy=fy09&chart=11-fed_12-fed&bar=1&stack=0&size=m&title=Various%20Items&state=US&color=c&local=s  

   U.S. Gross Domestic Product 1929 - 1960  (billions of current dollars)
   
   
1929   103.6
1930   91.2
1931   76.5
1932   58.7
1933   56.4
1934   66.0
1935   73.3
1936   83.8
1937   91.9
1938   86.1
1939   92.2
1940   101.4
1941   126.7
1942   161.9
1943   198.6
1944   219.8
1945   223.0
1946   222.2
1947   244.1
1948   269.1
1949   267.2
1950   293.7
1951   339.3
1952   358.3
1953   379.3
1954   380.4
1955   414.7
1956   437.4
1957   461.1
1958   467.2
1959   506.6
1960   526.4

[HaroldArnold]

Ella let's keep his discussion open for final Concluding remarks from ever one at least through Monday

[mabel1015j]

Thanks Harold, i was going to suggest that we keep this discussion going for a while also. My husband has been in the hospital for 3 days, so i'm a little behind, but it seemed like everyone had a lot to say.

It hadn't dawned on me before, but we've had quite a recurring history of going from presidents of privilege to presidents who have "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps." I started thinking about how different HST was from FDR. FDR being a man of great privilege, the toniest schools, good contacts w/in the gov't system, people who could place him in good positions, and no concern about money. HST had nothing, in fact went bankrupt a couple times, lost all of his in-laws money in an oil-search bust. Was not a college grad and had no contacts in WAshington. What different perspectives they must have had on the world. And yet each rose to a huge challenge w/ new ideas about how to meet them........the one thing they had in common was strong mothers to whom each was very close and who had great influence on their sons.............huuuummmm................

That thinking led me to JFK and LBJ - very similar histories to FDR and HST..............hummmmm and that led me to G.W. Bush and Bill Clinton and then GB and Obama....................isn't that interesting, some one should research that for a grad thesis and write a book about it, don't you think? ...............hhuuuummmmm!
Jean

[Ella Gibbons]

We had a family health problem today and, of necessity, I am just now posting and thank you all so much for keeping our discussion alive!

Of course, we will keep the light burning here for another week or so to gather all the comments folks might want to make.

We have two more days yet to finish up the book AND I AM HOPING TO HEAR FROM KIRSTIN, if she is not on a speaking tour.

The advent of the latest publicity for her book might bring unexpected, but wonderful, engagements and bring additional readers for this worthy book.

Very interesting, HAROLD!  And to say "In any case let us pray that an event of the magnitude of WW II will not be required" is certainly the understatement of the year!  As you said, time will tell about the policy of saving the banks, it's been somewhat of an "exciting ride."  Economists are, no doubt, having a field day with it all.

Okay, JEAN, there is your thesis, work on it!  But you don't think that has already been done?

Well, I was sounding out that "prothonotary" word, JOAN, and trying to figure out where the warbler got that name and then I clicked on your web site and there it was!  That's a lovely story!  Thanks for that.  I have one about a wild bird that we can never forget.  One cat (years ago) caught a downy woodpecker and we saved it, put it in a cage, researched what it ate and, darn, that was a story.  A picture appeared in our local newspaper of my daughter with that little downy woodpecker on her finger.  It loved cream cheese (and hamburger).  Fit right into the family diet!  That was back in those days when we older folks were young and could eat anything!

The communist witchhunt!  Went on for years, long after it should have.; what years those were.  The early days of TV, as I remember, and we all watched the McCarthy hearings.  MERCY!

But I did read the book WITNESS by Whittaker Chambers; it's a good book, very readable, I recommend it!  I wonder if I would think it was dated if I read it again.  Here are a few paragraphs from this site:  http://www.heritage.org/Research/PoliticalPhilosophy/EM735.cfm

"In 1952, Chambers published his magisterial, best-selling autobiography, Witness. The work argued that America faced a transcendent, not a transitory, crisis; the crisis was one not of politics or economics but of faith; and secular liberalism, the dominant "ism" of the day, was a watered-down version of Communist ideology. The New Deal, Chambers insisted, was not liberal democratic but "revolutionary" in its nature and intentions. All these themes, especially that the crisis of the 20th century was one of faith, resonated deeply with conservatives.

Among those who agreed with and often quoted Chambers' uncompromising assessment was a future California governor and U.S. President--Ronald Reagan. Indeed, Witness may have enlisted more American anti-Communists than almost any other book of the Cold War. They included, in addition to our 40th President, William A. Rusher, longtime publisher of National Review; veteran journalist John Chamberlain, who worked with Chambers at Time; and columnist-commentator Robert Novak.

The work continues to have a telling impact. At a Washington dinner last November, retiring Senator Bob Kerrey admitted that reading Witness had enabled him, for the first time in his life, to understand what Communism was all about."

[Ella Gibbons]

I apologize for that long post!

BELLEMARIE, I think your good sense in realizing that Frances Perkins was adamant in promoting her programs is very astute.

As is JONATHAN, always!  

I am a bit tired this evening to do much else but say Good Night to all and THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR POSTS.  

THEY ARE SO ENJOYABLE TO READ.

Tomorrow let's finish up the TRUMAN ERA and Frances Perkins' transition from a very stressful life, a public life, into one of uncertainty.

[straudetwo]

Instead of posting, as promised, I spent an inordinate amount of time in front of TV,  watching the celebration of Senator Kennedy's life last night, and almost all of Saturday - more than I do in a whole month (!).  I regret this further delay and will try to share some thoughts tomorrow.

By the time the library book came in,  I was wading through Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin for a discussion  with the  live book group next week.  (I was co-leading People of the Book and am still busy with The Raj Quartet.)

For me,  Kirstin Downey's book about Frances Perkins is infinitely more accessible and also closer to my own life experience, even though we did not come to these shores until 1954. That's when we arrived in Washington, D.C. on a typically hot, humid July day, the likes of which we'd never known.

In  due time we became naturalized citizens and voters. My son was born in Washington.  We lived there and in suburban Virginia for twenty years,  until my husband's company transferred him to Massachusetts.  Again new roots to plant and nurture ... It was extremely difficult.

When my husband died, I wanted nothing more than return to Virginia.
I'm still here -  nolens volens.

[PatH]

Goodness, Traude, we spent 6 weeks discussing "Team of Rivals" in March and April (it's in the archives).  It's a hugely rich and detailed book--I can't imagine making sense of it in one f2f evening.  Let us know how it goes.

[Jonathan]

I'm sorry to see the discussion of our book coming to an end. What a puzzling life. Such a long and useful life. Such an important role for several decades. Such distinguished acquaintances...justices of the Supreme Court and upper class movers and shakers...and she herself having the ear of the president for a dozen years. And such innocence.

Page 371. 'Later Frances...noted that she had read Whittaker Chambers's book in 1952. It made her, she said, "sort of ill," in fact, almost "nauseated," but she added little additional detail.'

I've heard that WITNESS was a book of revelations at the time, but could there have been that much that was new for FP? She had been on the scene so to speak.

It was interesting to read how closely FP observed FDR when he informed his cabinet of the details of the strike on Pearl Harbor. Given the speculation over the years about FDR's role in the coming of the war, it's curious to read FP's impressions.

Page 321. 'She did not want to admit that she thought FDR might have played a "false role" that day, that he had prior knowledge of the situation in Hawaii, or that he had information that might have saved lives. But she was convinced that "his surprise was not as great as the surprise of the rest of us.'

Reading that reminded me of Lincoln's anguish as described in Team of Rivals. Could it be that FDR was playing the Fort Sumter gambit...a president confronted by inevitable conflict waiting for the other guy to fire the first shot? I suppose never in his wildest surmises did FDR think those sitting ducks at Pearl Harbor would take the hit.

[JoanK]

Ella: somehow, WITNESS escaped my notice. I wonder how dated I would be if I read it now.

Communism appealed to many during the depression: at the time, Americans had no information about how it was actually working out, and its stated aims must have sounded wonderful. People must have been looking for somw hope to hang onto in a world that seemed cruel and indifferent. Only much later do we get to see the reality of how it works out in practice: a different form of dictatorship.

When I was in graduate school in the 70s, there were several communist professors. By then we knew more about the soviet Union, but nothing about China. So the line was "Russia wasn't real communism, but when we were able to enter China, we would see how perfect it was." No one asked why, if it was so perfect, no one was allowed in or out.

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN, I noticed that statement by FP about Whittaker Chamber's book also; the only reason I can think of for her "nauseous" feelings were the facts that Chambers wrote about his communist experiences and gave names of those involved; which included many people in the State Department.  FP probably knew most of them, but it's been many years since I read it and I do not have a clear recollection of the book or its contents.  

I always think that if I remember a book, then it must have been good because there are so many I've read that left no impression, no memory of at all.  That is, no doubt, a very poor reason to recommend a book, and I should not have done it!!!  Oh, golly!

"...a president confronted by inevitable conflict waiting for the other guy to fire the first shot?"  - Jonathan

Very good, JONATHAN, very good.  Isn't it interesting to find such comparisons in history, in great leaders.  They all think alike somehow?

How was it with Truman?  Was he a great leader?  He made a few momentous decisions, but Eleanor, like FDR before her, thought him a very weak man. I can't find a reference offhand to what FP thought of him other than he lacked social graces!  Was awkward at dinners!  AS I would be, as many of us would be, but he should have appointed someone to act for him at the dinner described on Page 376.

"The occasion just dribbled away without recognizing itself as an era which had finished."  FP reminisced.

Hello JoanK!  The 70's.  Funny, I can't recall anything right now about the 70's...I'm brain dead.  China!  When did Nixon enter China, opening it up to the west, he and his lovely, silent wife (she that never opened her mouth) in her red coat walking the Great Wall.

[Ella Gibbons]

TRAUD!  "we did not come to these shores until 1954. That's when we arrived in Washington, D.C. on a typically hot, humid July day, the likes of which we'd never known.

In  due time we became naturalized citizens and voters. My son was born in Washington.  We lived there and in suburban Virginia for twenty years,  until my husband's company transferred him to Massachusetts.  Again new roots to plant and nurture ... It was extremely difficult. "

TRANSITIONS!

Let's discuss the last chapter and FP's transitions.  Her husband, Paul, died and her relationship with her daughter was strained.

What did you feel about the decisions FP made in this chapter of her life?  How did she handle it? 

[mabel1015j]

Ella - you asked sometime ago what was controversial about the GI Bill, I think the only thing was how expensive it was going to be. I just mentioned it as a good - out of the box thinking - decision that HST  made and how important it was to the country's future. When i was in college '59 - 63 there were still vets in my classes who were using the GI Bill to pay for their education and to survive.

It's very interesting reading two books on the same subject, because of the different emphasis that the authors put on details, what they put in and what they leave out.  In reading about FP's offering her resignation to FDR in '44 and then to HST, Downey's book gave me a feeling that FP felt very unappreciated in all that she had done, and that was obviously real, based on the sources that KD had. On the other hand SEvern's book gives none of that. He writes in a very positive light. e.g. her posing her resignation in '44:
"She had long wanted to resign, and w/ most of the New Deal social legislation now an accomplished fact there were other opportunities she wanted to pursue in private life. She had been offered sev'l important positions outside the govt, others, that as one of her friends later said, "few women would have resisted." What ever the results of the coming election. Frances had made up her mind to quit when her third term in office ended."............She kept suggesting various replacments for her position"Meanwhile, Frances went ahead w/ her plans to leave. She confidentially told her frineds she would be quitting on Inauguration Day and informed the people close to her in the Labor Dept, so they could  make their own plans. She packed up her books and papers and ordered a thorough housecleaning of her office, even to having the carpets refurbished and some of the chairs reupholstered, so everything would be in shape for whoever took her place."After the last cabinet mtg FDR said "No, Frances, you can't go now." ........He....told her he knew what she had been through and what she had accomplished and that he was deeply grateful to her. .....She wanted to insist, but she couldn't."
Severn told of how she was feted by Labor Dept officials in honor of her 12 yrs of accomplishments and to pledge "our affectionate, loyal and active support in cont'd endeavors to achieve the purposes we hold in common. "

Severn wrote a similarly positive statement about her relationship w/ HST, saying that he did refuse her the postition of Soc Sec Admin because he wanted to reward a Dem pol, but again he wrote how much she enjoyed the position on the Civ Serv Comm.  There was none of the info about her successor at Labor pushing his way into her office before she had vacated it. The interesting thing was that none of what Severn said was probably inaccurate, the facts were true, but KD had FP's feelings from her research and it gives a completely different picture of her.......................just proves that we must read many sources and not accept the perspective of only one author or one source as the end all and be all of the story.....................jean

[ANNIE]

This has been a most informative and pleasant read.  Unfortunately, my book had to be returned to the library as other people were waiting for a copy to read.  It would be most interesting to discuss thoughts of those folks who waited patiently to read it.
 
I am now looking at "Tell Me a Story" by Don Hewitt and will see if that's as much fun to read and discuss later this year.  We will see!

[straudetwo]

Just lost a long mail - too late to try and recap now ...

[Ella Gibbons]

Interesting, JEAN, thanks!  KD referenced quite a bit from FP's book THE ROOSEVELT I KNEW, but also in the Notes  she had oral reminiscences.  Where did Severn get his material from?

Between your book and Bellemarie's book we've had different statements on a variety of issues.

We find FP teaching labor history and the New Deal legacy at Cornell in the chapter of TRANSITIONS.  Wow!  Who better to teach those subjects!

A couple of people she met there:

Paul Wolfowitz, a student  -     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz

Allan Bloom, a faculty member - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Bloom

Wolfowitz recalled - "It took a while to realize how astute she was, how sharp she was."

Isn't this interesting, a remark that leads one to speculate:  "Franklin Roosevelt would never be admitted to a first-class college today."
(pg.385)

He would no doubt, just hire a tutor and, later, someone to brief him!

However, history is kind, more than kind, to FDR; not a great mind, but a great leader.

[Jonathan]

Every discussion should have a footnote. Here's an attempt at one.

Page 398. 'And at Cornell Frances was truly mourned....A requiem mass was held at the Church of the Resurrection in New York City....It was hot and the thick smell of incense overpowered the little church.'

Bill Clinton came to town (Toronto, Canada) on Saturday to address a huge audience. He came directly from Senator Kennedy's funeral mass. He spoke for only 30 minutes, instead of the scheduled 45. The incense in the church had left him with a sore throat. Nevertheless the headline reads: Clinton wows audience.

I suppose we'll all remember Frances Perkins for different reasons. I feel that Kirstin Downey has been successful in showing what a complicated character FP really was. More complicated than the boss she served so loyally.

What a manipulator! And just look where she found how to. In GRACIAN'S MANUAL. One marked passage in FP's copy reads:

Page 386. 'Discover each man's thumbscrew. It is the way to move his will, more skill than force being required to know how to get at the heart of anyone; there is no will without its leanings, which differ as desires differ. All men are idolators, some of honor, others of greed, and the most of pleasure:the trick lies in knowing these idols that are so powerful, thus knowing the impulse  that moves every man: it is like having the key to another man's will, with which to get at the spring within,  by no means always his best, but more fequently, his worst, for there are more unholy men in this world than holy; divine the ruling passion of a man, excite him with a word, and then attack him through his pet weakness, that invariably checkmates his free will.'

What can one say to that! All's fair in love and war and POLITICS. FP was ruthless in her soft approach.

How interesting to read that FP was working on a biography of Al Smith at the end of her life. A commoner, just the opposite to the aristocratic Roosevelt. I think she loved the company of these tough men.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,

Bill Clinton came to town (Toronto, Canada) on Saturday to address a huge audience. He came directly from Senator Kennedy's funeral mass. He spoke for only 30 minutes, instead of the scheduled 45. The incense in the church had left him with a sore throat. Nevertheless the headline reads: Clinton wows audience.

I went to hear Bill Clinton speak when he came to my home town in Ohio back in Feb. before Hillay suspended her campaign.  I shouted, "Yes we will!" And he looked up and smiled, and said, "Yes we will."  Everyone near me started shouting...Hill a ry!!!  It went on for about 2 minutes.  He loved it!!  He is electrifying!  He has a common habit of going hoarse.

Oh how I would have loved to hear Frances Perkins at a rally.

[straudetwo]

Again my apologies. I simply didn't have the strength last night to start over.  Here I am back, right under the wire.

Lots of thoughts came up and were shared in this excellent discussion, and also comparisons with politics and female politicians of today.  One picture of FDR's cabinet was especially telling: it's in the group following p. 112 in the book. FP is at the far right in the top row, standing proudly..  We must honor and admire her for her courage and perseverance.
It is eminently fitting that not one but two books inform us of her pioneering work.

In this fast-paced digital world of ours we are saturated with information around the clock -  much of it trivia IMHO. We live for the moment but with a large window to eternal youth thanks to Botox,  etc.   But man still makes the same mistakes over and over.  And yes, unfortunately, we have short memories.  That's why we need a wake-up call every so often to remind us that women can be as dedicated as men and are intellectually quite as capable. FP would no doubt be pleased that five decades after her death there're five women in the cabinet; several women in Congress; the memory of representative Shirley Chisholm; and two in the exclusive preserve of men - the Supreme Court.  

It was an arduous journey.  Women have broken through the 'glass ceiling', but it came with a price. As yet there's no full pay equity, and old prejudices still raise their ugly head.  I remember the struggle for the Equal Rights amendment (it passed in Massachusetts but failed nationwide).  Who can forget  the leading figures of the day:  Gloria Steinem,  Bella Abzug in her colorful hats that perfectly matched her vibrant personality,  and the ERA's most vocal and influential foe, Phyllis Schlaffly??  But the political landscape has changed, forever --  one would hope.   The opportunities are THERE for all women.  

What concerned us most when we came to this country was survival,  creating a new life in the face of adversity.. We had no political affiliation, how could we? We concentrated on the information in the papers. At first we puzzled about the meaning of the columns for "Coloreds". Yes, I figured it out.  We were horrified by the reports of  Senator Joe McCarthy's ruthless, intimidating tactics  --- that was OUR backdrop (!) but  hardly democracy at work as we had envisioned it.  We may be forgiven for expecting perfection  - which is elusive, of course.

In 1954, General Eisenhower was president.  Within two weeks I was fortunate to find a job  with a patent law firm as a  translator of patent applications in French, German (and yes, PatH, one in Spanish) into English.  To my surprise and, frankly, my discomfort, the only female attorney in the firm would discuss politics with me now and again, though I didn't have the slightest idea. I remember how anxious she was mulling over  the possibility that Richard Nixon's might  take over if Eisenhower's health made it necessary. Of course I realized how important this all was - but I had no personal connections as yet ad was hesitant to venture forth..  It took years before we became aware of the two major parties, how they differed and where the Commonwealth of Virginia stood.  

Pat H, re Team of Rivals.
I know, I know, I knew.  I tried to caution the group, but I never ever carry a big stick, never twist arms.  It all works out in the end, I found.  In this case, it already has :Ironically, the most enthusiastic supporter for choosing the book last June ("We have all summer," she said)  soon plaintively e-mailed the rest of us to say she found the book  "tedious" (!).  And the member who had suggested the book  declared herself open to a new choice.  Then, as the leader of the group, I decided that we should go forward,  come what may.  Our live meetings are always spirited -- this one may berousing 

Now I have to back-track to the post where there was mention of a comparison between FDR and Hitler ---- Hitler of all people.  Did I really reaed this or was it a chimera?