Author Topic: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online  (Read 92324 times)

EvelynMC

  • Posts: 216
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2009, 01:56:15 PM »


The Woman Behind the New Deal:
     The Life of Frances Perkins,
          FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience

               by Kirstin  Downey


Links:
Frances Perkins Center
Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor
Jane Addams
[Frances Perkins Speech

Discussion
August   l -  8     
August  9 - 15     
August 16 - 22     
August 23 - 31

Schedule
Chapters 1-9
Chapters 10-18
Chapters 19-27
Chapters 28-38


FOR CONSIDERATION
Had you ever heard of Frances Perkins before?  Why do you think she has been forgotten by history? 

Is there anything in her early life that predicted the course her future would take?

How did the era in which she grew up impact her life?

What is it about Chicago that  has seeded many of our VIP’s in government?  (ex. Jane Adams, Frances Perkins, Barack Obama)

How did her stint as a volunteer distributing food baskets and milk to children at Hull House lead to her life altering career?

Her ideas were often shocking and way ahead of her time.  What impressed you?

The plight of poor immigrants moved Perkins throughout her life.   What are some of the first evidences of this in the book and how do you feel that they compare with the problem of immigration today?

Had you ever heard of the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire before?   What did Perkins mean when she “recognized that tragedies could be turned into positive events?”  Does that statement resonate with one from Rahm Emanuel who said “ Never let a crises go to waste”

Perkins believed that it was important to her career and her goals to network with wealthy and important people and she made a great effort to do this.  What is your opinion? 

Perkins' "Notes on the Male Mind" (pg.45) may seem amusing to us; however, are any of them applicable?
______________________________
Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hold for heading

EvelynMC

  • Posts: 216
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2009, 02:01:29 PM »
I am enjoying this biography.  It is a real page turner.

My family listened to the news and politics was discussed nightly at the dinner table.  My grandfather was a staunch Republican, my mother was a democrat and my father was a democrat with socialist leanings.  Very quiet dinners, always.  ;)  Roosevelt, the New Deal and the war were topics of conversation. Altho I was quite young, I remember these discussions well.

I recognized Frances Perkins name from reading biographies of Eleanor Roosevelt.  

The first eight chapters outlining her childhood and young adulthood were very interesting to me.  I had some idea of the plight of workers, but did not realize it was as bad as it was.

Having one's pay reduced by employer deductions for "use of tools" and being sent home after being injured on the job with no medical care and complete loss of income was abhorrent.  No wonder workers wished to organize against factory owners.  

The desciption of the Triangle Shirtwaist fire left me with a sick feeling.

On another note, I agree, Ella, that many successful women have had a father who has always encouraged them.

This is going to be a very good discussion. I'm glad I'm part of it.

Evelyn

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »
I loved the discussion of her early years. The turn of the twentieth century is one of the most interesting (to me) periods in American history.

Everything was happening at once.

--The Western fronteir had closed, and America was trying to settle into being a country without the endless opportunities to the West.
--The Industrial Revolution was in full swing, people were moving from the farms to the cities, we were becoming for the first time an urban society.
--There was an incredible surge of immigration. My grandparents, and probably many of yours, came to the country at that time.
--And to top it all off, there was the Demographic Transition!

What's that? Every developing country goes through it. In a darming society, the birth rate is high, but unfortunately, the death rate is also high. My great-great-grandparents had ten children, but only two lived to adulthood.

With industrialization, conditions improve, so the death rate drops, but the birth rate doesn't. My grandparents, at the turn of the century, had ten children, and they all lived. My grandmother had to scramble to take care of them. She wasn't the only one. Between immigration and the natural increase, the US population doubled in ten years, almost all of it in the newly formed cities, which were literally bursting at the seams.

Later, the birth rate drops: my parents had two children (PatH and I). But that was later.

Meanwhile, the cities were teeming with just about every social problem you can imagine, as all these people, especially the immegrants, tried to find decent work, decent ousing, etc. Laborers were a dime a dozen, so employers had no incentive to pay or treat them well; there were no laws limiting what they could do (or when there were, they were ignored. Housing was so scarce, families doubled and tripled up. Prenatal and birthing care was beyond the reach of the poor.

Housing, family, and working conditions were at a level we can't even imagine today. And Perkins was in the middle of all of it! She was inspired by Jacob Riis, a photographer who documented the unspeakable housing conditions and managed to get some reforms. She went to Chicago and worked with Jane Addams, the woman who started the settlement House movement to educate immigrants.

And she actually saw the Triangle Shirtwaist fire: an event that was pivotal in the labor movement to improve working conditions. The workers had been LOCKED IN. So when the fire broke out, they couldn't get out, and they died.

Perkins wasn't the only one who was galvanized by this. It was so horrible, it got the attention of many who had ignopred or been ignorant of the working conditions of the day. But Perkins was amazing in how she was able and effective in carrying that attention through her life. What a woman!! I love her already.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #83 on: August 01, 2009, 05:39:04 PM »
I won't be able to get the book from the library until Monday or Tuesday, so i got another written in 1976 by Bill Severn. I'll just comment on what you talk about here on the site.

Jane Addams is one my heroes. Do you all know that she is one of only 2 American women who have won the Nobel Peace Prize? The other was her partner in starting the Women's League for Peace and Freedom, Emily Green Balch. Even tho i was a history major in both undergraduate and graduate school, i learned that by accident by picking up a bio of Balch in the 70's. No women's history in my education. LOL i had to learn it on my own.

It is important that Perkins had an opportunity to work w/ JA. Severn says " It was from JA that she first learned the importance of bringing together people of differing views for discussion and conciliation, a lesson she was never to forget. Nearly 30 yrs after Hull House she  wrote'It was she who taught us to take all the elements of the community into conference for the solution of any human problem - the grasping landlord, the corner slaoonkeeper, the policeman on the beat, the president of the university, the head of the r.r., the labor leader - all cooperating thru that latent desire for association which is characteristic of the American genius.'" (do you agree w/ that last phrase?)

It seems as tho every generation has to relearn that principle. In the 80's and 90's some consultants made a lot of money "teaching" companies that principle - they called it "quality management." Now the next generation is seeing it put into play by the president. Too bad everyone doesn't learn our history and not have to keep repeating it!

I also think that so many people are anti-union these days because they don't know their history and how bad employers behaved in the past and how much more it has improved because of labor unions organizing employees.....................

We also take for granted that our food industry is looking out for us and we assume our food has been prepared in sanitary conditions. It certainly has improved since the beginning of the 20thc thanks in part to Perkins and TR..................jean

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #84 on: August 01, 2009, 06:46:33 PM »
I have been obsessed with FDR, and Eleanor, since I was a teenager.  During the 1940s I was often at my grandmother's house, and we listened to the "Fireside Talks", together.  I felt as if we were somehow part of the Roosevelt family.  I have read many books about both FDR and ER.  Several talked about Frances Perkins.  I can remember being proud that a woman was a member of the cabinet.  But, I had no idea about her early life.

It seems to me that some people are just born with compassion and empathy.  I know that I was!  Jane Adams is one of my heroes.  One of my early memories is of my great grandmother sending money to help the poor and needy.  Today, I do the same.  I went to work for the County Welfare Department in 1967.  I worked in the Old Age Security program.  Making home visits.  In 1971, I was promoted to supervisor, of a unit of workers in the Aid To Dependent Children.  I also covered a caseload of Aid to the Disabiled.  So, I have worked with people from children, to retirees.  I loved my job!!!
So, I am really relating to the information about FP's work.

I really admire her spunk.  She grew up in a conservative home.  She was brave enough to strike out on her own, to a college of her choice.  She rebelled against her parents wishes.  Not many women were courageous enough to do that in the early 20th century.  I am looking forward to seeing what she does next.

I was looking forward to reading the rest of this week's chapters today.
But, one of my toilets backed uup during the night.  I also discovered a leak under the bathroom sink.  So, I spent my day with a plumber, rather than our biography/  Sigh




Sheila

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #85 on: August 01, 2009, 09:15:46 PM »
Sheila:"I was looking forward to reading the rest of this week's chapters today.
But, one of my toilets backed uup" Sigh. From the heights to the depths. I admire your career: if there were only more like you.

To those interested in Jane Addams, I recommend her autobiography. A light and enjoyable read.

JACKIE: your point learning to bring everyone into consultation from Addams is an interesting one. I don't know if I agree with the "latent desire for association" as a characteristic of "American genius" or not (are we non-geniuses supposed to feel it too? If so, I guess that's what Seniorlearn is all about).

I had another thought: I believe the book said she was also influenced by Lincoln Steffens. He was a reformer who went from city to city, starting in New York, exposing the corruption of the big city machines that had developed in every city. After watching attempts (good and bad) to clean up the corruption (including Theodore Roosevelt's in New York), he came to an interesting conclusion.

Steffens said that the only people who could clean up the machines were members of the machine. When well-meaning outsiders were elected to do so, they were ineffective, because they didn't understand how the system worked, and couldn't unravel it. Only someone who had been part of the system knew it well enough to do anything about it.

Later, we see Perkins becoming friendly wwith everyone in Tamany Hall (the very corrupt and very powerful New York City machine) to the horror of all her reforming friends. I wonder if she had this in mind.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #86 on: August 01, 2009, 09:16:56 PM »
I seem to be posting the world's longest posts!!! I'll try to keep it down.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #87 on: August 02, 2009, 10:31:12 AM »
"She was 'sturdy, plain and dependable.' No doubt she was that to get as far as she did. But she sure had a lot of adventure along the way. Why, I wonder. did she turn her back on her comfortable middle-class upbringing to look for company among those in the upper class, and a personal satisfaction working among the poor and forgotten?”"- JONATHAN

Hello JONATHAN.  I could write a term paper, I believe, on that paragraph!  But I won’t.  How awful to be described in those descriptive terms; even if true.  What woman wants to be plain and sturdy.  Dependable, perhaps, still even that sounds stodgy!

In the course of FP’s college life she met women who had remarkable influences on her life.  We all meet such people in the course of our lives; not too many of us allow such influences to guide us on the path that FP chose.  Why?  Who knows?  A chance to get away from home?  (A prophet has no honor in his own country) 

A new life?  The big city?   And she chose  to go to New York City - a “den of iniquity”  her father called it.

But we need such people!  The organization she chose to work for became the UNITED WAY.

Thanks for your post, EVELYN.  I was interested in your statement that though you had a republican and democrats at the table you had quiet dinners!  My, My!  As I remember those conversations, those days were full of controversy; Roosevelt and his “wild” ideas were cussed and discussed throughout the land, much as Obama’s ideas are today.  More about all of this later.




Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2009, 10:50:13 AM »
JOAN!  What a grand post, thank you!   Your history of the dawning of the Industrial Age was fun to read; I agree with you that it was, if not the most interesting, at least, the most fascinating periods of history.  I am reading a book titled FORDLANDIA by Greg Grandian which illuminates this period (and of course, Henry Ford) and the great ideas of the industrialists, fantastic people who with their millions could do so much, and did!   

The birth rate!  Another term paper?  Hahahaha   Indeed, yes!

Social problems?  The most prominent theme of our current book.  And it’s just great fun to be discussing it with all of you.

JEAN, you will love this book.  Thanks for your comments reminding us Jane Addams.  We’ll be waiting for your remarks about Frances Perkins.

SHEILA!  It’s just dreadful to have the plumbing problem!  Hope it gets fixed real soon.  I am very interested in this:

"I worked in the Old Age Security program. Making home visits. In 1971, I was promoted to supervisor, of a unit of workers in the Aid To Dependent Children. I also covered a caseload of Aid to the Disabiled. So, I have worked with people from children, to retirees."

Tell us what changes you saw in those programs during the years you worked.  And I want to hear more about the OLD AGE SECURITY PROGRAM.  I don’t know what it is or what it was!

I have my own story about what I used to hear about”old-age pensions.”  What did older folks do before Social Security?

I’ll be back later when I have recovered from all this typing, hahahaa!  But I love this discussion of a very worthwhile book and subject!

Thank you all so much!





Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #89 on: August 02, 2009, 11:06:46 AM »
LET'S TALK ABOUT CHICAGO for a few minutes (Chapter 2)

Ever been there?  The city - "THAT NEVER SLEEPS."

Have you read THE DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY?  We discussed it here: 

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/DevilintheWhiteCity.html

A fascinating book and one that illuminates the glory and the horrors of the city in 1893, when the city celebrated the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition.

And 11 years later, FP moves there.  She took a job teaching there "sight unseen."

What does that tell you about this young lady?

And to make it even more unusual:

"Immediately upon arriving, she reinvented herself.  She changed her name, her faith, and her political persuasion. (pg.16)

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2009, 03:17:52 PM »
The thing that fascinated me was this: She decides that politicians are most comfortable and responsive dealing with a woman if she reminds them of their mother. So she remakes herself to look as motherly as possible, even though she was a young woman, and unmarried.

How many young women would first, have had that insight, and second have acted on it. Working in the fifties as a woman in a predominantly men's field, I haven't forgotten how hard it was. Every time I met a new male collegue, I had to work hard to be taken seriously, not patronized or ignored (The problem had not comepletely dissappeared in the 90s, when I retired, even though there were many more women in the field).

How pragmatic Perkins was!! We don't know how many times in private, she screamed and kicked the wall. But in public, it was just "here is an obstacle: how do I get around it?" And it didn't undermine her confidence in herself at all: witness her demands of Roosevelt.

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2009, 05:53:17 PM »
Choosing a hat. The curious forms of female ambition. FP never got over her mother's advice to fit the hat to her facial features. That bloody 'simple three-cornered tricorn style' hat that her mother chose for her,

'...would come to symbolize the plain, sturdy, and dependable woman who became Frances Perkins.' p5

The image was not to her liking, of course, and there is an irony in her using it in her mothering of the men who got in her way. She did have some funny ideas about getting on in a man's world. Well, whatever it takes. Men soon came to appreciate her leadership and managerial abilities. She doesn't seem to have been held back by the men in her world. As for the mother/daughter relationship...well, after Holyoke, FP just didn't want to go home again. She seems to have been left struggling with a self-image not to her liking, but neither did that hold her back.

At Holyoke she caught the founder's motto:

'Go forward, attempt great things, accomplish great things.' p11

Circumstances determined that Frances Perkins turned into a social reformer. I believe in that respect she was a child of her times. Reform and progress were in the air, certainly in the atmosphere of the social circles in which she moved. And it provided ample scope for her ambitions. The world was her oyster. Especially Chicago for a starter.

'For a young woman seeking to launch a new life in the early 1900s, no place offered better possibilities than Chicago. Fast-growing and diverse...the world's fair in 1893...the home base of civic reformer Jane Addams's Hull House, Chicago also became the focal point for the nation's social activism and a new center for intellectual thought. It was only that Fannie who was drawn to social work and looking for adventure, left Worcester and moved there in 1904....Immediately upon arriving, she reinvented herself. She changed her name, her faith, and her political persuasion.' p17

Hmmmmm...it says nothing about buying a new hat. But that will come. Just look at the pictures in the book. All those hats. I like the coal miner's helmet. I think she was good-looking.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2009, 09:15:09 PM »
Hats, hats! I remember in my youth "ladies" were supposed to always wear hats (and never split infinitives). If you saw a picture of a woman in public life, she always had a hat. It wasn't Perkins' fault.

Some women love hats: I always thought they were a pain in the neck-- especially the hatpins. At first, the hats always had net veils, and we saw the world through spotted net.

kidsal

  • Posts: 2620
  • Howdy from Rock Springs, WY
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #93 on: August 03, 2009, 08:06:46 AM »
I always loved hats.  Had one with a veil and a feather.  My mother had a marvelous white hat -- like a skull cap made of white feathers and a white veil.  Remember in the 60's living in Los Angeles.  My roommates cousin came to visit from Washington, D.C.  When she got off the plane she was wearing a hat and white gloves.  California changed that!

Split infinitives -- afraid I still go back and correct my sentence if I split an infinitive.

Kirstin Downey

  • Posts: 10
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #94 on: August 03, 2009, 09:01:59 AM »
Hello, all! I'm delighted you have chosen to read my book on Frances Perkins. I am happy to answer your questions this month. I'm in the process of moving so there may be some gaps from time to time in my responses, but I am very interested in hearing what everyone has to say. I spent nine years researching and writing the book--truly it was a labor of love--and it is a thrill to move into the world of public discussion after so many years of private reflection on this fascinating woman and her life.

Kirstin Downey

HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: August 03, 2009, 10:45:33 AM »
As I said in my opening day post, “thank you Kirstin Downey for writing this book.” Reading it has led me to a completely different view of her role in the new deal.  Previously I had pictured her more isolated in her Labor Dept office routine of statistic publication and occasionally the arbitration of a major strike or  deportation hearing.  I had not realized how much the Roosevelt administration still relied on cabinet meetings to decide such a wide range of national policy issues.

I don’t think Cabinet meetings play anywhere near as important role in setting policy today.  Do they ever really meet except to have their group picture taken?  As you stressed throughout the book Roosevelt frequently accepted Frances Perkin’s ideas on issues unrelated to Labor to the great annoyance of other cabinet officers.  As this discussion progresses I think more should be said on the contrast between the makings of major policy decisions today with the Roosevelt Administration in the 1930’s.

HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #96 on: August 03, 2009, 11:21:12 AM »
For more on Mount Holyoke Collage Click the following:

From Wikipedia Encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Holyoke_College

From the College Home Page:  http://www.mtholyoke.edu

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: August 03, 2009, 11:38:13 AM »
Welcome, Kirsten Downey.
We are so glad to see you here and hope you will be able to answer our questions while moving.  Welcome welcome!
I have been reading the posts today as I was out of town at the beginning of this discussion.  I just wanted to comment to
Kidsal
And her post about her mother's hat.  "My mother had a marvelous white hat -- like a skull cap made of white feathers and a white veil. "
My  mother had a similar hat and I have a picture of her, during the '40's in a fancy CHICAGO hotel dining room with that hat perched on her head.  You brought many fond memories to me of our mothers' hats. 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: August 03, 2009, 12:53:13 PM »
JOAN, did you remake yourself in any way when you entered the workforce and, particularly, in dealing with men?  And how did you manage to be taken seriously?

Yes, KD tells us that FP dressed motherly in the workplace.

Frances learned two lessons in working with men.  (pg.45)  Men would trust a woman with secrets and that it helped to dress in a somber way.  It's hard to imagine that young women today would consider such lessons other than to laugh; however, times have changed since FP was a young woman.  

Can we use the word “CONSERVATIVE?”  I think women in the workforce are conservative today also, do you?  Notice the appearance of women in the news.  I don't see much flamboyance!

Another lesson she learned about politics was to keep in the mainstream, correspond, work with the party and its leaders.  Aren't you impressed with her energy?

HI JONATHAN!  "I believe in that respect she was a child of her times. Reform and progress were in the air," Yes, I think so, too!  A new century.  Two world wars.  Henry Fords all over the place.  What an age!  

I would have liked to have been a “flapper.”  Cloche hats, short sequined dresses, the dancing, the Charleston.

No evidence that Frances was one; she bypassed that, didn’t she?  What fun did she have in life when she was young!  

I’ll scour these first few chapters to find out!

KIDSAL, good to hear from you!  I LOVE HATS, TOO.  I wish women would go back to wearing them, but afraid not.  I had three I saved forever hoping to wear them again.  Oh, yes, I did love wearing them.  A black hat with a wide brim with a black suit and heels and a frilly blouse!  Those were the days.

To split an infinitive sounds painful.  Mine will have to stay.

WELCOME KIRSTIN!

WHAT FUN TO HAVE OUR AUTHOR IN OUR MIDST!  IF ANY OF US HAVE QUESTIONS, PLEASE BOLD THEM SO KIRSTIN CAN SEE MORE CLEARLY!  THANKS MUCH.


I PERSONALLY WANT TO THANK YOU FOR WRITING SUCH A GOOD BOOK!  THE TEN YEARS YOU SPENT ON THE RESEARCH SHOW WONDERFUL PATIENCE AND ABILITY AND I  HOPE YOU GO ON TO WRITE MANY MORE!

I HOPE YOU DON’T MIND,  KIRSTIN,  IF WE DIGRESS NOW AND THEN FROM THE BOOK. THE ERA HAS MEMORIES FOR MANY OF US.

We will be getting more into the “meat” of FP in later chapters.  And as HAROLD has indicated we will be discussing contrasts between the “Roosevelt era” and our own.

HELLO ANN, good to have you here!

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: August 03, 2009, 12:59:30 PM »

FP had some powerful mentors!  Role models??????  (pg. 51)   

SAMUEL GOMPERS -  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Gompers

“His philosophy of labor unions centered on economic ends for workers, such as higher wages,shorter hours, and safe working conditions so that they could enjoy an "American" standard of living -- a decent home, decent food and clothing, and money enough to educate their children.[4] He thought economic organization was the most direct way to achieve these improvements, but he did encourage union members to participate in politics and to vote with their economic interests in mind.”

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: August 03, 2009, 04:49:40 PM »
How delightful to have the author join us in this discussion. Kirstin, you've written a marvellous, fascinating life of Frances Perkins. It's very obvious that a terrific amount of work and thought went into it. I love the style. We were all envious of Pat when she posted several weeks ago on how much she had enjoyed seeing and hearing you at the Meet the Author night in D.C.

The opinions in these discussions can get very provocative. And so my first question to you is, can Joan be right in imagining FP screaming and kicking the wall, in private, in moments of great stress? I have a problem with that. But then I also had a problem when I read, in the Prologue, that, 'that night in bed (she) cried in deep, wailing sobs that frightened her teenage daughter.'

Was it so stressful to present her plans to the president-elect? Was it intimidation in the presence of greatness, or sheer fright on how her plans would mean a 'radical restructuring of American society?

And this 'mother' image that she practiced, and made a policy vis-a-vis her male colleagues. Wasn't it a true maternal instinct coming into play? She liked to think of all men as boys. She wished for boys when she was pregnant. But then, as you tell us, Alcott's LITTLE MEN was a great favorite of hers.

I just remembered. You quote FP later as saying that FDR had no plan of his own when he took office. I wonder if that was no meaningful plan, in FP's opinion.

But that comes later. In the early chapters this reader is kept busy speculating on the need for redefinitions of self, and 'erasing her tracks', after making another switch in political allegiance.

I don't really want any answers. I want to figure this out for myself. Thanks for the many fascinating details and clues.

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: August 03, 2009, 07:39:16 PM »
IMHO, the unions just took over for the Tamany Halls and other political groups who ran the cities and sometime the states.  What was the name of the group who ran Kansas City and helped Truman get a job and then to rise to the rank of president???
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: August 03, 2009, 11:33:51 PM »
The Kansas City Demo political machine that was analogous to Tammany in New York was called the Pendergast Machine.  Click the following http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Pendergast for
Wikipedia information.  Harry Truman was associated with this group.  The article states that Pendergast picked Truman as a replacement candidate in 1934 when the Senate candidate died two weeks before the election.   During the  1948 Presidential election campaign the story circulated that Pendergast boasted he could get his office boy elected to the Senate, sending Harry Trueman to Washington.   

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2009, 12:19:02 AM »
It seems women have always been figuring out how to deal w/ men on the job, how to best get them to pay attention to their ideas and listen to what they had to say and then to not have the men undercut their authority. I started working for Dept of Army at Ft Dix in 1982 and at that time the "studies" stated that men gave more authority to women who wore dresses because their mothers and their teachers had worn dresses, so the women Directors all wore dresses when we had mtgs w/ the powers that be. Maybe FP had a point about behaving motherly and wearing her hats. By the time i retired in 1996, the women directors were almost all wearing pantsuits - partially thanks to Hillary Clinton. Of course, their were many more women officers by that time who always wore pants, so the men were acclimatized to women in pants.

I just finished a bio of Condalezza Rice which talked a bit about her conflicts w/ Rumsfeld and Cheney and sometimes even Colin Powell. All of them were surprised at how strong she could be and how she sometimes undercut them - especially Powell who had been her mentor in G.H.W. Bush's admin. Rumsfeld and Cheney just tho't she was incompetent. Some of their thinking was probably accurate, on the other hand, how much were they supposing that she wasn't behaving as she "should" as a woman. I identified w/ her in some descriptions of meetings where she was the only  Black  and/or  the only woman at the mtg, as was true for FP. What a feeling of isolation. FP must have felt it especially strongly as she moved into many arenas as the first woman ever to be there, or to be speaking w/ authority.  ...................jean

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2009, 10:27:51 AM »
I can't imagine Frances Perkins with a feeling of isolation in any situation. It seems more likely that she was soon the center of action in every group activity in which she found herself. As class president. As chairman of every committee, As chief commissioner of this and that. She was a natural selection as Secretary of Labor. Politics was a cakewalk for her. It seems she, more than anyone else had the president's ear. Perhaps not. There was Harry Hopkins. And Louis Howe. And Missy and Lucy. And of course Eleanor. The latter and her husband didn't share the same bed, but they often had their heads together. Isn't every life a mystery.

Jonathan

  • Posts: 1697
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: August 04, 2009, 10:42:29 AM »
I get the impression that FP got along with everyone, outside of her family. As often as not gender worked in her favor. As someone says of her, she was a smart woman.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: August 04, 2009, 10:49:29 AM »
Two opinions here.  What do the rest of you think?  Would Frances Perkins feel isolated in a meeting where she was the only female? 

I'll weigh in.  She became a politician exactly when is anyone's guess.  And once she learned she never slowed down.

On pg. 36 Kirstin tells us: "Frances had imagined her life……….married, doing volunteer social work, living comfortably and well."

The horrible Triangle Shirtwaist fire "galvanized the thirty-one year old social worker."

Were you as surprised as I was to turn a few pages and read that TEDDY ROOSEVELT, former president, had recommended her for a committee to investigate the fire and working conditions!  TEDDY!  A beloved president.

The young lady has gone far in her short life.  Isn't it interesting to read about these famous people we all have come in contact with at one time or another.  The list goes on and on.  I love reading about them from a different perspective.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: August 04, 2009, 10:54:52 AM »
I have a question for Kirstin pertaining to research.  How do you, particularly over a 10-year stretch, manage to keep it all organized?  By year?  By periods of FP's life, e.g., early, middle, later?

I am so in awe of an author who can do what you have accomplished here!  All the sources you have investigated, it's positively incredible!

Of course, I have loads of other questions, but they will keep!

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: August 04, 2009, 11:30:25 AM »
Harold,
Thanks for the name of the Pendergast Gang, (which is what my grandparents called them).  I grew up hearing the name ringing in my ear everytime someone mentioned Kansas City or Harry Truman.

Ella,
I don't think that FP was ever humbled by a man while she was heading up a committee in the government.  She always knew her P's and Q's and knew how to use her information, in order to make sense of any important meetings.  She was so young when she was accomplishing this.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Kirstin Downey

  • Posts: 10
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2009, 11:39:07 AM »
Hi, Ella and others,

Yes, it was a huge job keeping track of all the pieces, and I now have boxes and boxes of research material. I started by reading dozens of books on the period. I photocopied the pages with material particularly relevant to Frances Perkins's life, and highlighted the passages. I kept them in manila folders. I also reviewed hundreds of archival collections all around the country. I had copies made if it seemed that the material would be useful. The biggest issue was keeping track of material within Frances Perkins's 5,000-page oral history. I made a complete copy, and read it three times and wrote notes on it all. I flagged things with post-its so I could find items more easily. Then I organized it all along the lines of the chapter outline I devised when I proposed the book to Random House in 2003. I originally thought the book would be 16 chapters, so much changed. I had to learn a lot of additional history, particularly about the Cold War, that I had never imagined I would need to know. The book grew to more than 30 chapters.
I kept track of all the footnotes by writing with embedded footnote software, which helped keep things organized, but then all that coding and information had to be stripped out because it didn't conform to Random House style....Now I need a whole separate room for all my Frances Perkins research.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: August 04, 2009, 11:49:24 AM »
Oh, I can imagine, KIRSTIN!  No, I can't!  Are you renting space for it all?  Hahahaaa 

When you say you reviewed hundreds of collections all around the country, do you mean you physically went where they were contained?  As a newcomer to the book world, did you get your outline approved by Random House in short order? 

Who is going to be your next subject?  I think you ought to do Al Smith, what a character!  Or, are you already working on one?  Tell, tell!

Thanks so much for answering my question! 

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: August 04, 2009, 12:10:00 PM »
The shirtwaist fire.  The tragedy of it.  What was your reaction?

I felt outrage.  An insult to our country.  In a similar situation I felt President Kennedy’s assassination an insult to the country.  No sense to either!

I was recently outraged to the point where I almost shouted for the audience in a theater to react in some manner.  Throw stones at the screen.  Leave the theater.

THE STONING OF SAROYA - http://www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1054.html

Can we do anything at all for these women?  The statement was made in the movie that according to their laws (Iran) women are guilty until proven innocent, men innocent until proven guilty.

Has anyone seen it?

What your thoughts about the Shirtwaist fire?  Could it have been prevented?

 





   






HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: August 04, 2009, 12:38:49 PM »
Continuing the thread of mabel1015 in Message #103 regarding Women’s exercise of authority in responsible positions in business and government and more specifically Hillary’s preference for pants suits to the apparent complete exclusion of skirts.  Frances seems to have managed her position of authority very well.  She did not try to negate the fact that she was a woman, but so far as her job was concern the exercise of her authority seemed no different from what could be expected from a competent man in the position.   She made no apology; she just did her job.  In the wash room men made their jokes but that made no difference in the management of her office.

Regarding Hillary’s constant appearance in pants suits, I’m thinking that this was interpreted as an attempt to negate the fact that she was a woman making women in particular less enthusiastic about her candidacy.  Perhaps her sometimes appearance in a skirt would have made her initial huge lead more difficult to erase as happened in the spring off 2008.

JeanClark

  • Posts: 19
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: August 04, 2009, 02:07:14 PM »
My Name is Jean Clark a friend of Harold Arnold. I am an avid reader.  My favorates are mysteries and science fiction but I will read just about anything. Harold has helped me register here and this is my first post.  I will speed read the book and participate here.

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2009, 02:42:27 PM »
Welcome, Jean.  So glad you are going to join us for this super discussion.  Jump right in anytime!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

HaroldArnold

  • Posts: 715
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2009, 03:53:17 PM »
http://www.kirstindowney.com/readers_guide   This link is to Kirstin Downey Readers Guide on her web page.  It consists of some 15 key questions relative to major issues raised by the book.  These I think can be particularly valuable to each of us who as individual participate in this discussion.  I urge all of you to open this link, make a print copy and to use them ito formulate your discussion posts.  They will be a great tool in stimulating discussion by raising good questions and issues.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2009, 09:28:53 PM »
Welcome, JeanClark, it's great to have you here.

If you are interested in mysteries and Sci-Fi, you'll be glad to know that we have specific discussions for each of those genres where we share comments on what we're reading and get good ideas of new titles we might like.

The Mstery discussion is here:

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=33.0

and the Sci-fi/Fantasy discussion is here:

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=31.0

When you use one of these links you'll get to a discussion title with page numbers, and you can go to the last number to come in on the last page of the discussion.  See you there.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2009, 09:56:51 PM »

THE FIRE, THE HORROR OF IT

As you can see, the ladders only go so far.

The Triangle Shirtwaist Fire of 1911 still remains one of the most vivid and horrid tragedies that changed American Labor Unions and labor laws. The fire had come only five years after Upton Sinclair published his book The Jungle, which detailed the plight of the workers at a meat packer's plant. But instead of reforming the working conditions most people wanted to reform the health and safety regulations on food. The tragic death of 146 girls, whose average age was 19, was needed before the politicians and the people saw for the need to regulate safety in the workplace.

Had you read about this fire before this discussion? 



Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2009, 09:58:13 PM »
WELCOME JEAN!

You need only to read the first nine chapters of the Perkins book in order to catch up to our reading schedule and to comment.

We look forward to hearing from you.