Talking Heads - Healthcare Reform

[bellamarie]

bellemere, 

The friend who saw the video of the Barney meeting said the inquiring lady presented a poster of President obama with a Hitler mustache drawn on. And that the audience roundly cheered Barneys answr.

I am for certain it is on YouTube rather than take anyone else's word for it. I was addressing the post of  what Steph said, about what the lady and Barney's words being said.  I ask...Does it  make it right the way Barney or the lady acted because they both got applause?  If that is the case, then bad behavior, aggressiveness, name calling, and rudeness has become acceptable not only by these town hall people, but the representatives too.  That's a new low for our expectations of someone we elect to listen to us and respresent us.  When I watched I was saddened by both the woman and Barney Frank, I certainly did not feel applause was in order for either person's behavior.

You know this health reform is in trouble when the President has resorted to using scripture to guilt us, and the religious leaders into supporting him. What happened to seperation of religion and state?   It is his moral obligation to protect this country from bankruptcy, OOPs sorry I forgot, after his enormous bail outs, stimulus, omnibus, cap and trade, cash for clunkers, etc. we are already in bankruptcy.  But what's another trillion or two or three or ten added to the deficiet, our children and grandchildren can shoulder the burden years after he has left office and we are gone.  That's a fine tribute to leave to them.   

nlhome, My husband works for the Federal Government the U.S. Post Office, we do NOT have the same health program as the congressmen/women, senators and the President.  It is a fact they are not putting themselves under the same health care reform program they want for us.  They have been asked time and again why they aren't and they have NO response.

No one knows how many seniors are not informed of their medicare coverage being government run, but I would say by the thousands turning up at these town hall meetings there are more informed than not.  I can tell you since July, 60,000 seniors have cancelled their AARP because they are informed.  You haven't heard the insults being said??  I have, and it has been reported nightly.  I suggest you try tuning in and turning your channel to get more newsworthy. Its all over the internet, newspapers and YouTube for all to see, if you really want to be more informed.

Tonight there was the former Canadian President of the AMA being inteviewed and he said their health program is failing miserably.  He said there are ONE MILLION people waiting on a list to get in to see a specialist and another ONE MILLION waiting on a list to have surgeries.  He said the cost has skyrocketed to a point this will bankrupt their nation.  He suggested the United States not use them as a model for health care reform.

I respect each and everyone of your posts and opinions, but I can clearly see in this discussion it is predominantly liberals.  So I will respectfully adjourn and leave you to your personal attacks on Palin and say it was interesting and thank you for your insights.  I can only hope the articles and facts I posted, will help you with being  more informed and open minded.

[nlhome]

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/a/congresspay.htm

Members of Congress get the same menu of health insurance. They may be able to afford a more expensive choice. Also, depending on where they live, their options may be different. http://www.opm.gov/insure/index.aspx

Since there is no program out there yet, no bill passed, the Senate is still working on one to look at, I think it's a false issue that Congress members have refused to say they will move to that. After all, if the promise that people can stay with their existing coverage, and that existing coverage serves all federal employees, then what's the issue?

One of the Congressmen in our state has refused to participate in the federal plan until people get the same access to coverage as he does.

Our State of Wisconsin employees get to choose from a menu also. This is quality health care, but people must select a plan that fits their budget and that is available where they live and that covers their choice of doctors. So a rural person may have fewer choices and they may not be as inexpensive as those who live in larger cities.

That's one of the reasons why it's unrealistic to believe that everyone will get the same exact coverage. Every area of the country is different. That exactly equal health care would probably have to be the totally socialism that most people seem to object to. One size does not fit all - I'm sure we've all learned that in the department store dressing room!

[Steph]

Ah, no I did not mean that each and every car dealer was not happy or unhappy with what is happening. They are way too busy at this point. I think that Cash for Clunkers has worked reasonable well and I think that other parts of the stimulus are working as well.
Medical  Care. I think it is nice, but unrealistic to think that we are going to all get the same care. I wish that would happen, but it is not. I do believe that we desperately need some sort of universal system. Probably at the beginning, it should be a mild form, progressing over the years just as social security and medicare have.
My medicare and medigap work perfectly for us thus far.. the prescription program works well for me, but not my husband. I can take generics, but he needs a specific high cost drug..
I dont hate anyone other than a man who came into my mothers life and stole from her when she was dying ( but hopefully he is also dead by now).  Sarah Palin is more of an annoyance than anything. I worked for Hillary and worked quite hard right up until she threw in the towell. I would work for her again. I will work for Alex Sink in Florida who may run for Governor and is intelligent and caring.  I did not work for abortion as much as the right for a woman to choose.. I had several friends when I was a teen, but went to the illegal part of life and I know how hard that was for them.. So I wanted everyone to have the right to choose.
So.. Bella,, hopefully I am not quite an unintelligent as you think me to be.. I am just a human.. quite liberal.

S

[ANNIE]

Here an email sent to me this morning.
Last week, millions of Americans watched President Obama talk about health care reform during a town hall meeting in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. We've included just a few of the President's statements.
Obama Myth #1: You can keep your doctor; you can keep your health care plan.
The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated that nearly 6 million Americans currently covered by an employment-based plan would not have coverage under the current reform proposals.
Obama Myth #2: The AARP supports ObamaCare.
In response to the President's claims, the AARP issued a statement which asserted that "indications that we have endorsed any of the major health care reform bills currently under consideration in Congress are inaccurate." However, 60,000 AARP members have discontinued their membership - so one might assume it is a business decision for them.
Obama Myth #3: 46 million Americans are uninsured and uninsurable.
According to the Census Bureau, of the 46 million Americans who are uninsured:
10.1 million are individuals who have income of $66,000 for a family of four, but who elect to remain uninsured.
9.3 million are non-citizens who generally do not pay tax.
6.4 million who are enrolled in Medicaid or S-CHIP but reported to the Census taker that they were not. (This phenomenon is known among statisticians as the Medicaid undercount.)
4.3 million are eligible for Medicaid or S-CHIP but have not enrolled.
5 million are childless adults, mainly healthy, young adults who simply do not wish to pay for insurance.
In short: Most uninsured Americans are uninsured by choice, not by circumstance.Myths such as these confuse and frustrate Americans who simply want the best for their country.

[ginny]

I think this is a great discussion, it's  kind of a Town Hall Meeting right here online, (without the shouting),  and a lot of great points have been brought up as well. I'm still obsessing over the war veteran's widow not having care nearby.

I want to be sure we are all on the same page here in discussing the issues but keeping the personalities of those speaking out of it? Remarks referencing "you" or another speaker  negatively are not necessary. Let's continue to show the world we can discuss the issues without attacking the people giving their opinions, because some of the stuff being posted here  is most valuable and it would be a shame to lose posts because of personal references.

OK?

[Eloise]

Tonight there was the former Canadian President of the AMA being inteviewed and he said their health program is failing miserably.  He said there are ONE MILLION people waiting on a list to get in to see a specialist and another ONE MILLION waiting on a list to have surgeries.  He said the cost has skyrocketed to a point this will bankrupt their nation.  He suggested the United States not use them as a model for health care reform.

At 83 if we didn't have our Canadian Health Care System I would be dead. All my friends and family see a specialist whenever we need one. I don't understand  former Canadian President of the AMA The American Medical Association had a Canadian President?

If we have the second place in the world for longevity, that surely is a sign that we are doing something right in the health field.  

I know the Canadian Health Care System is scrutinized right now by Americans, just remember that we don't have a Socialized Health Care, people equate Socialized Medicine with a Communist system.

I wonder what Canadians would say if we were told that our Health Care System would go private, I think there would be a revolution.    

[nlhome]

AdoAnnie, I suspect some of those "mythbusters" are myths themselves. I'm not sure where it came from, but I don't trust the numbers.

Those of us who experience the uninsured or work with them, know that they don't really have a choice. I truly suspect those numbers are more wishful thinking than reality. The number of uninsured that is quoted, 47 million, is a figure from before the latest job losses and economic downturn, so I understand the number is actually going up.

As for keeping your healthcare, I think that is naive to believe that anyone will continue to be happy with their health care in the future if there is no reform. I don't think it's realistic to promise that people can stay where they are, with or without health care reform. But with reform, people will be able to move into good, affordable coverage. Without reform, more and more people will join the ranks of the uninsured or underinsured.

[bellemere]

I believe that people who say they want tokeep their health care mean they want to keep their doctors.  I don't think they feel any bond with their insurance companies.  I think the questions on those polls should ask " Would you ever change your insurance company for a better plan if it meant you could keep your doctor?
When Massachusetts started requiring people to buy health care, the largest increase in enrollment was in a group of employed people who elected to take up the coverage offered by their employers that they formerlhy declined, not wanting to pay their share of the premium.  They were young, healthy and knew they could rely on the emergency rooms if they broke their legs skiing or racked up their SUV on the highway. .
Also, if Massachusetts had a government option health plan, we would be a lot closer to universal covedrage with controlled costs. 
this from NPR interview with Howard Dean:  the extolled plans of Germany, Switzerland, etc, are not government plans; they are private.  But they are closely regulated, given cost reduction goals, told how much profit they cn earn; told how much they can pay their administrtors; and their marketing plans are monitored for deceptive practices.  Mayb that is our answer?  Use the regulatory route and the fiscal route of corporate taxes to penalize private plans whose rates exceed the rate of inflation.

[pedln]

When Massachusetts started requiring people to buy health care, the largest increase in enrollment was in a group of employed people who elected to take up the coverage offered by their employers that they formerlhy declined, not wanting to pay their share of the premium.  They were young, healthy and knew they could rely on the emergency rooms if they broke their legs skiing or racked up their SUV on the highway. .

What a good point, bellemere.  I know there are people who cannot now afford insurance, but for those who can, it’s really a matter of personal responsibility, isn’t it.  I don’t know about the other 49 states, but in Missouri you must either have car insurance or demonstrate financial capability before you can register your car.  Seems to me there’s not much difference with health insurance.

Several years ago one of my adult children elected not to buy health insurance, and it upset everyone in the family, me especially. Scared me to death. This was a person who skied, biked, hiked, you name it.  “You could bankrupt your sisters and brother and all of us,” I told her.  “Oh, no one would make you pay for my care, Mom.”  Yeah, right, like we'd let her wither and be warehoused, and not  dig into our pockets to pay for the right treatment.  Fortunately someone with greater powers than me made her see the light.   But that was a long time ago.  Now she’s gainfully employed, insured, in the public health arena.

[Steph]

I have been down in Florida for the last 21 years, so dont really know any more about other states , but in Florida especially in tourist heaven, around the Orlando area, there are thousands of small business people.. Mostly in the tourist business. Probably 90% have no health care for themselves or their employees. I know one woman who works one night a week as a bartender for Darden, just so she can buy into their system of coverage.. She actually pays them to work, but says it is worth it for the peace of mind. Her husband has a small store and she works there the other 6 days..
So I think there are a lot of people here who need some form of health care. I also discovered something I did not know last night. We have a dear friend who has Parkinsons and has been having a lot of problems otherwise. Her doctors wanted a MRI with contrast and Medicare said.. No... just a plain MRI. She had no idea why and neither do I. I guess medicare has some rules that I know nothing about.
I cannot imagine AARP endorsing any medical plan. They have a medigap plan they peddle, that we belong to of course.. But they really try hard not to take sides in issues.

[nlhome]

Steph, your friend should maybe go on line and find the Florida SHIP counselors and see if they can help her with Medicare. There are appeal processes. Usually medically necessary procedures are paid for, unless the procedure doesn't fit the diagnosis or the doctor hasn't provided the necessary documentation, or the doctor just assumes that Medicare won't pay for it.

Unless she is in a managed care plan. Then there may be another issues.

SHIP counselors are found in every state and can be located on the Medicare site.

[bellemere]

Nice to hear from a Canadian here.  Good to know their system is working well for her.
My Canadian friends complain about government beaurocracy just like we do. but they don't want our health system.

[bellemere]

I really shouldn't watch those clips on YouTube, too upsetting.  When I see those looks of sheer hatred and hear the screaming rage, it just brings back memories of an earlier shameful time in our history, the civil rights struggle, and I hope it is not motivated by that.  And the angriest people are the elderly, and (sorry) all white, and maybe not rich, but don't look as if they missed any meals lately.  Ane they have Medicare, ther are pretty well off for health care.  Why are they spewing so much hatred?
I can't help but think they are motivated by fear, that they may have to pay higher premiums for their Medigap?  In order to subsidize "those people" as the code implies.
I loved the op-ed piece by Kathleen what's her name, the conservative columnist with a level head. "Will someone please return Hitler's mustache to the prop room?"

[Steph]

I was distressed yesterday by an article that talked about a town meeting, where the representative explained at great length that the VA benefits are not even part of the health bill and will not be touched. After the meeting two elderly vets were interviewed and neither one believed him.. Why oh why would they do that.
I find the guns anywhere in public as frightening. I am afraid that one gun in person and I would leave. I think that people who carry guns to public places are not entirely put together and I dont want to die because someone is a hater ...
Thanks for the medicare tip. I passed it on to my friend.

[ANNIE]

If the new health bill won't pass without the public offering, why don't they just offer that one part and see what happens?   IMHO,  we would still have folks without health coverage.  If they cannot afford it now, what makes Pelosi think they will be able to afford it later???
How about we start slowly with this and do just what I suggest?  Why not take care of just the folks who don't any coverage and then go from there???  We could have something like Medicare but only for those under 65.  

We have had no trouble with our Medicare or our Gap insurance which is not cheap but better than nothing and it includes prescriptions with no donut!

We have had a rather unusual year here in downtown Gahanna, OH, where my husband was dying of congestive heart failure, with an ejection fraction of 10 to 14 %.  He was asked if he would consider a heart pump implant and he said yes.  So, we have a very healthy 75yr old who lived through very serious surgery on March 5th.  He has batteries to wear and carry around every place he goes.  But that's not a bad way to livel, he says. Better than the alternative, as he says.   Oh, did I tell you that he has a wound site which requires cleansing in a very sterile atmosphere every other day.  This is not easy but, again, its better than the alternative.
Do you think this would have happened to a 75yr old man anywhere else on this planet??  My husband is one of the oldest men in the this study and has nothing else wrong  in his body.  No diabetes, no arthritis, no liver or kidney problems, not even an allergy unless you count mild tape problems.

[Steph]

He sounds like an ideal candidate and seems to have proved the doctors right. I think your general health is truly important in some of these transplant cases.

[bellemere]

He is to be congratulated on the succesful outcome of the surgery.  Medicare patient, I take it? A government=run program . He is also llucky in his underlying good health/ he must be what my husband calls "a tough old bird"   
My problem with no government option:  A plan that requires everyone to get insurance, means they are required to buy insurance form private companies.  some people will need a gvt. subsidy to do so.. Thus the Reform becomes a vehicle for transferring taxpayers
 money to the private insurance companies, with thier high administrative costs, shareholder dividen requirements, high executive salaries., and enormous advertising and marketing costs. 
I was sort of intrigued by the proposal of Senator Olympia Snow (what an unforgettable name, huh?\
She said, as you recommend, Annie, skip the governmentprogrma for now; have a built-in trigger.  If the private insurance costs rise more than the rate of general inflation for more than three years in a row, because they dont reduce costs, then Bam!  The public program would go into effect.  I wonder if they woud take the challenge.  her suggestion seems not to be going anywhere.
At least the public debate seems to be getting less rancorous.  I saw on PBS a spot showing an Idaho congressman visiting his district and people voicing their opinions about the Health Refome in very civil tones, and treating him respectfully.  is it something in the air up there? 
Good to see, anyhow? 

[Babi]

The problem with waiting for three years to see if the insurance rates go up, is
that insurance rates are already so high that many people have none at all.
It is these uninsured people that desperately need the help, and simply saying
we'll pass a law that everyone has to have insurance still does not make it possible for this low-income group.
 

[bellemere]

No, it does not.   Low income people will require a subsidy.  That will be taxpayers' money. and the insurance companies free to raise their rates whenever.  What a windfall for the insurance companies, all that taxpayer money!

[Steph]

The idea of putting low income people who are not used to fighting for their rights into the grip of insurance companies, who love to get premiums and hate to spend money is scary to me. I just have read too many horror stories from people who have complicated problems and the insurance company says no, right up until the patient dies..

[Dana]

I think that the US must be the only developed nation in the world without universal health care. Many different forms, but industrialized  countries do supply health care for their citizens. It's just embarassing to be the outlier if you ask me.    I'm a physician who has worked in the UK and Canada and the US. Sure there are limits and drawbacks to the UK and Canadian systems but less than the limits and drawbacks here.  The trouble is that those with insurance don't want to lose any benefits, and certainly some care would have to be rationed if universal health care happened. Also the fear of "socialism"is so profound.  I guess this ongoing present debate has just shocked me to realise how entrenched the present system is, and sadly I have come to realise that no meaningful change is going to happen.

[nlhome]

Dana, I feel sad, too.
But I'm also angry, as I have family who will be suffering if nothing is done.
So I keep writing and calling and talking, and I have added my name to an add in support of health care reform with a public option, and I will keep doing so. I believe Congress must get its focus back on the people.

[Babi]

  The government will be setting the rate of the subsidies, tho, BELLE, not
the insurance companies.  Just as in Medicare payments to physicians, the
govt. does not pay the full private practice rates.  And already there are
so many insurance companies competing for clients, one can reasonably hope
that the competition will force a lowering of rates.
  And of course I see a lot of ads from attorneys, claiming they can make
the insurance companies 'pay up'. It's probably a toss-up as to which would
cost more, the attorneys or the insurance loss.
 

Sure there are limits and drawbacks to the UK and Canadian systems but less than the limits and drawbacks here.

 I find Dr. Dana's observation to be both encouraging and comforting, esp.
since I, too, like NL, have family who are in great need of affordable insurance.

[bellemere]

I am discouraged, but not despairing   At least here in Mass. we have made a start.  I remember reading that Canada actually began universal coverage province by province, and maybe that has to happen here.  I am reallylooking forward to the next stage here, to see if the state can actually bring down costs by changing the fee-for-service system. 
I would like to know the site where i can sign on to a petition such as you describe.  There was an impromptu rally here both honoring the memory of Ted Kennedy and urging support of health care reform.
I can't help thinking that there is something more going on here than just worry about health insurance.  It seems lke a passion for the status quo, for no change.  Some people are not able to deal with the tremendous changes in demographics, and in technology .  Our senior generation has seen more of that than any other in history, and can be scary.  People feel as if they are losing control.  They want Beaver back in the kitchen eating cookies whilie his at home mom vacuums in her pearls and high heels, as one columnist put it. 
If nothing is done, more and more families will go bankrupt from medical bills they cannot pay. More employers will drop insurance as too costly.  That is a certainty. 

[nlhome]

Babi, the subsidy by the government would in my opinion be much worse than having the government pay the claims as it does in Medicare. The government now subsidizes the Medicare Advantage plans, which are private companies that offer Medicare benefits, so that these plans cost Medicare 13% more than it would cost Medicare to cover those persons in the traditional plan. Some of the Medicare savings in the health plan would come from eliminating these subsidies - then would those companies be able to compete?

[Babi]

  I have no idea, NL.  The intricacies of government and big business are far
beyond me, and even those most knowledgeable recognize that this is not
going to be 100% satisfactory no matter what is done.  Perhaps what Bellemere suggest is the most viable solution.  Individual states working out a
plan that works best for them, eventually leading to a consensus for a national
plan.  Something is desperately needed.

[Steph]

Some states would do a good job. Unfortunately I live in a state that would not do anything. Floridas big motto is no new taxes. Which is flatout stupid, but there it is. They will do anything to stay on the voters good side and we have so many older people who cling to no taxes. They dont seem to notice our schools are horrible.. more and more people are without work or hope.. Disabled are forced out of group homes.. And we pay higher and higher fees..( But that it seems does not count as taxes).. Maybe outside pressure would help. But our current governor is into being tanned,,,and liked, but not actually doing anything.. Not an intellectual to put it mildly.

[bellemere]

Oh, Steph, so funny I think your gov. is into being tanned, likeable and President.  But we have a brown one now, do we need a tan one later? 
Everyone hates taxes. But you are right, those fees are the same thing.
A speaker on 60 minutes studied the health care systems around the develpd world and had some great observations.  None of them with the exception of theUK are government run, government just pays the bills. All care is privately provided.  the shocker was that out of 23 countries surveyed, USA was 23rd in life expectancy at age 60.n  Also, he validated the decision of Massachusetts; it is a  moral obligation to provide access to health care for all.  Then it is a practical obligation to find a way to pay for it.  But the vision of health care as a human right has to come first, and has to be the goal.
In a way you can understnd the antipathy to taxes on the part of Florida senious. Many of them are living longer than their money, or afraid they are going to.  It is a very frightening prospect.  We all face it, but in florida, with so many seniors, it tends to dominate the political process.   

[Steph]

I am a senior , but I marvel at the number of seniors around me that complain so vigorously about taxes and liberals and yet enjoy the fruit of many liberal policies. Some of it seems to be the idea of change.. I like change, but a good many elders regard it with great suspicion.

[ANNIE]

Well, you know that saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and we all at one time or another believe that.

Again, I think we need to resolve our poverty stricken citizen problem first.  Those who don't have insurance should be insured wherever it can be done.  Isn't that what Medicaid is for?  Is the government telling us that these uninsured folks can't get insurance through medicaid?  Well, offer them something else that they can afford or just cover them through a program that is for them only.

Another thing that really roasts me is the government ignoring some of the things that could be changed that would bring down the cost of care down now.  One is torte reform! The lawyer lobbyists are still going strong.  When  drs have to pay as much $100,000 to $400,000 a yr just to protect themselves so that they can practice, there is something bad in the henhouse.  So far, in the past four years, I have lost 4 doctors who have closed their practices and become hospitalists.  The hospitals that they work for pay the insurance fees and they have the availability of hospital lawyers.
Our university hospital where I live has a different way of handling their ER patients.  They question them about their reason for coming and then separate the true emergency patients from the less seriously ill patients.  They each have their own waiting rooms and a separate staff tending to their problems.  This does cut down on the waiting period that all other ER's seem to have.

[ANNIE]

Hi Bell,
I thought you lived in Ohio not MA?? 

[pedln]

Annie, glad to hear Ralph is doing so well. Your university hospital seems to be going in the right direction.  The hospital here has convenient  (or prompt) care right next to the ER, and that's where they start out, but a nurse who works there was telling me that if the patients have a headache, they have to be seen to ER; if they have abdominal pain, they have to be sent to ER.

Steph, you are right about tort reform.  And it seems to me that that alone would cut down expenses if it relieves drs. from running so many tests.

Do you think the events of this past week -- the Kennedy memorial and funeral and additional coverage  about his public service and health care goals with motivate some of the laggards or quite public officials to rethink their positions?  They sure inspired me.

[Steph]

I have to admit that the Kennedy funeral was inspiring, but I hear that is only to a certain percent of the population. A lot simply wanted to remember the young heedless Teddy. He was not my favorite Kennedy but he grew into a great statesman.

[Babi]

 Annie, poverty alone is not enough to make one eligible for Medicaid. The rules
vary by State, but age, dependency, disability, etc., are all elements in determining eigibility for Medicaid. 

[mrssherlock]

I am a late comer to this discussion; don't know how I missed its beginning.  So far i haven't read all the past posts but I do have some comments to make.  I would have made notes if I had known about this discussion.  An August 24 interview on NPR with T R Reid of the Washington Post discussed his experiences with health care in other industrialized nations. which is recounted in detail in his book, The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112172939  has the discussion which may be heard online.   He makes some interesting points; I believe it was in France that he   asked his physician where the billing office was.  Reply, there is no billing office; the medical records are computerized and the gov't pays immediately on receipt of the entry for the latest visit.  French doctors don't have to pay for malpractice insurance and they don't have to pay for medical school either.  In one of the countries where he sought medical care for his back he was referred to an acupuncturist; he was surprised that this treatment helped relieve the pain. 

For me the question relies on some basic, irrefutable facts.  One:  America is the only Industrialized Nation (IN) where peolpe do become bankrupts as a result of illness.  Second American medical costs are the highest in the world and are going higher; this includes all aspects:  physician visits, hospital stays, drugs, medical education, insurance, and the cost of caring for the uninsured in the most expensive setting, the emergency ward. 

I am on the list to read his book; maybe it would make a good discussion.

[bellemere]

Thank you, thank you, that is the man I saw on Sixty Minutes while half-dozing in front of the TV. 
My French friends get great health care.  the wife told me she has to pay something for her prescriptions but she sends in the receipt and gets the money back in a few days. 
I wish I knew how they retire at 55 with complete health care.  My friends had relatively modest jobs; she was a teacher in a "maternelle" a nursery school; he was an accountant for the National Railway . (Socialized trains!  They are magnificent, clean, super fast, always on time)
On the bad side, they have a lot of unemployment.  But even the unemployed don't have to worry about health care.  They get the same as working people.
Oh well, only the police are allowed to carry guns,  they never get to have any ward. and the women are too skinny.   
Ado Annie, I live in Massachusetts maybe you have me mixed up with the writer who has a similar name.

[pedln]

Jackie, thanks for that link.  I had seen TR Reid in some TV interview (not 60 min.) but was glad to see the NPR link.  And am glad that NPR had the print transcript available, which I've printed out to read a leisure.

[Steph]

Dont pay for medical school. That would certainly help.. Our nephew is a pulmonary specialists.. When he got out of med school, he already owed over 150,000.00 dollars and then had years of residency and further training. He is just now at 40 getting clear of all the debt. Makes for such a long long time. Since he deals in hospitals only with really ill people, it is interesting to talk to him about end of life issues. He says that families spend of their time fighting about what Mom would want.. He is a great believer in everyone clear on what Mom or Dad wants.

[Babi]

 Hasn't someone already posted in here the quote from Bismarck?:

 "Laws are like sausages; it is better not to see them being made."

[Steph]

Oh Babi, I love it.. I must post that somewhere to remember..