Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371991 times)

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1400 on: June 30, 2011, 11:46:49 AM »
A pasquinade expressed the opinion of Rome: “ Leo has eaten up three pontificates: the treasury of Julius II, the revenues of Leo, and those of his successor.”  When he died Rome experienced one of the worst financial crashes in its history.

We keep saying "the more things change, the more they stay the same", but those sentences could describe the last decade!

Yes, the Protestant Reformation was all geared up to clean house, now some of them need ckeaning up. Human beings are amazing, someone(s) screw up and others clean up, thank goodness, but then the "lord of the flies" syndrome takes over for the cleaner-uppers and it just goes round and round.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1401 on: June 30, 2011, 07:08:38 PM »
Having been the victem of a spendthrift relative, I'm interested in spendthrifts. A number of great people were spendthrifts, van Gogh, Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, Thomas Jefferson, on and on, and they all left broken people behind them who pay, not only with money (although not on the scale that Leo did).

One surprising trait they all seem to have in common is that they are unusually generous. So, Leos generosity enabled him to leave us many good things. This generosity is usually thought of as a virtue, but I think it is part of the distorted view of money and material goods that they have. Today is today: if they have money, they are happy to spend it, or give it to someone else. Tomorrow and the consequences tomorrow will bring don't exist for them. Tomorrow comes, either more money comes, or it doesn't, and they either spend it or find someone they can borrow from. They can borrow again and again saying they will pay it back, and BELIEVING it (even though they never have paid back all their other loans. yesterday doesn't exisst for them either). After all, that's tomorrow, and something will come up.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1402 on: July 01, 2011, 12:05:46 AM »
Mabel and Joan interesting comments on the 'Spendthrift'. It is good to see that Durant included this passage in the story. I read the book about three years ago and my memory of Leo is scant, and since I no longer have the book, I must rely on Trevor or whatever I can find online.

Brian are you out there? It would be good to hear your comments on 'spendthrifts', and the comments of all others who have posted here on that subject. Trevor? Frybabe?

For myself, I am not a spendthrift. I have always lived within my income and saved when I could. I like Joan have known some spendthrifts and wouldn't trust them with a wooden nickel.

I see usury was alive and well at some of the banks and the interest rates sky high. Who other than an 'airhead' would enter into such ruinous agreements. My opinion of Leo has dropped another few notches, and is now at rock bottom.

Emily

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1403 on: July 01, 2011, 07:52:50 AM »
I'm here Emily.  I certainly do not fit in the spendthrift catagory. My one downfall, howefvwer, is books. Even so, after I go layed-off from work the book buying slowed down considerably. With a Kindle for Christmas and a new membership at the Library, I can still read without spending.

I'd hate to think what the loan sharks are charging now-a-days. When I was in high school we learned that interest rates above 12% (or there abouts) was usury. Look at what those who use credit cards and don't pay all their balances have to pay today.

Brian

  • Posts: 221
    • Brian's Den
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1404 on: July 01, 2011, 12:05:13 PM »
I am also following this discussion,  but have not posted recently.

Thanks to Trevor for his devoted attention to posting regular chunks
of material,  and to those who give their opinions on them.

As for spendthrifts - - - don't we all have a weakness here?  I used to be
a smoker (quit 40 years ago) - what a dangerous waste of money that was.
And though I am fortunate enough to 'live within my means' there are times
when I splurge, and am not ashamed of my actions later.

Keep up the good work!

Brian

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1405 on: July 01, 2011, 03:08:03 PM »
"My one downfall, howefvwer, is books". That's me! Everyone has one area where they "let loose" a bit. But that is so far from being a spendthrift. It's almost like they HAVE TO spend money!

Do any of you know Connie Kinsella's books about the "shopoholic"?

FRY: how do you not spend money with a kindle? I find it's a bit of a money-pit if I'm not careful.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1406 on: July 01, 2011, 04:53:45 PM »
JoanK, most of my e-books are from Project Gutenberg or Many Books. They are all free and they have several versions to fit different E-readers. Gutenberg used to also have versions in pdf form, but I cannot locate any now. Many Books does have pdf, so if you have Acrobat Reader, but don't have an E-book reader like Kindle, you can still download a book to your computer and read it that way. Granted, most are all really old, out of copyright books, but I get to read a lot of old classics that I missed when I was younger.

What I do is download a book file to my computer, hook up my Kindle to the flash drive port, and then copy the file into my Kindle file folder for text. If I really wanted to, I could also download audio books to the audio folder. Project Gutenberg (I am not sure about Many Books) has many of the books in audio files. My Kindle will also accept Audible.com audio books.

I like free!  If it is a newer book, I check the used bookstore first before buying new.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1407 on: July 01, 2011, 10:02:14 PM »
There's still the library! I am not a book buyer, except for a very few fiction books that i just loved, and non-fiction books i have used in my teaching, and women's history, and i have read thousands of books. Even today, if i couldn't get to the library - it's only 3 blocks up the street - i can download books from their website. There are many, many free book sites online. Some of them are repeats of the classics, or out of print books, but there are also sites that want readers of new authors. I never am at a lose for books to read, thank goodness.......

Jean

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1408 on: July 02, 2011, 10:01:17 AM »
Quote
I never am at a lose for books to read, thank goodness.......

Amen to that, Jean.

I am in the middle of reading my first library book (for the A Novel Bookstore discussion). There are several others I have in mind to borrow afterward. I still prefer to have my own, but it is a good way to read books I don't intend on reading again or lend to my sisters. It is also a good way to discover if it is worth buying for my shelves.

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1409 on: July 05, 2011, 10:27:05 PM »
The Durants'  SoC

Vol.V  The Renaissance
The Intellectual Revolt 1300-1534
Pages 525-528



In every age and nation, civilization is the product, privilege, and responsibility of a minority. The historian acquainted with the pervasive pertinacity of nonsense reconciles himself to a glorious future of superstition; he does not expect perfect states to arise out of imperfect men; he perceives that only a small proportion of any generation can be so freed from economic harassments as to have leisure and energy to think their own thoughts instead of those of their forebears or their environment; and he learns to rejoice if he can find in each period a few men and women who have lifted themselves, by the bootstraps of their brains, or by some boon of birth or circumstance, out of superstition, occultism, and credulity to an informed and friendly intelligence conscious of its infinite ignorance.

So in Renaissance Italy civilization was of the few, by the few, and for them. The simple common man, named legion, tilled and mined the earth, pulled the carts, or bore the burdens, toiled from dawn to dusk,  and at evening had no muscle left for thought. He took his opinions, his religion, his answers to the riddles of life from the air about him, or inherited them with the ancestral cottage; he let others think for him because others made him work for them. While the uncommon man in Italy was half a century or more ahead of his class beyond the Alps in wealth and culture, the common man south of the Alps shared equally with his transalpine peers the superstitions of the time.

The people of Italy reckoned so many objects as true relics of Christ or the apostles that one might have furnished from the Renaissance Roman churches alone all the scenes of the Gospels. One church claimed to have the swaddling cloth of the Infant Jesus; another, hay from the Bethlehem stall; another, fragments of the multiplied loaves and fishes; another  the table used at the Last Supper; another the picture of the Virgin painted by the angels for St. Luke. Venetian churches displayed the body of St. Mark, an arm of St. George, an ear of St. Paul, some roasted flesh of St. Lawrence, some of the very stones that had killed St. Stephen.


Some Carmelite monks at Bologna ( till Sixtus IV condemned them in 1474 ) taught that there was no harm in seeking  knowledge from devils; and professional sorcerers offered their expert charms in invoking the aid of demons for paying customers. Witches -- sorcerers usually female-- were believed to have special access to such helpful devils, whom they treated as lovers or gods. In 1484 a bull of innocent VIII ( Summis desiderantes ) forbade resort to witches, took for granted the reality of some of their claimed powers, and,  by spells and magic rhymes, curses, and other diabolical arts, had done grievous harm to men, women, children, and beasts. The Pope advised the officers of the inquisition to be on the alert against such practices. The bull did not impose belief in witchcraft as the official doctrine of the Church, nor did it inaugurate the prosecution of witches; popular belief in witches, and occasional punishment of them, long antedated the bull. The Pope was here faithful to the Old Testament which had commanded, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live “ In the year following the promulgation of the bull forty-one women were burned for witchcraft in Como alone. In 1486 the inquisitors at Brescia condemned several alleged witches to the “secular arm”-- ie. to death; but the government refused to execute the sentence, whereat Innocent was much peeved.

Matters went more harmoniously in 1510, when we hear of 140 persons burned at Brescia for witchcraft; and in 1514, in the pontificate of the gentle Leo, three hundred more were burned at Como. Whether through perverse stimulation by persecution, or from other causes, the number of persons who believed themselves, or were believed to have practised witchcraft rapidly increased, especially in subalpine Italy; it took on the nature and proportions of an epidemic.; popular report claimed that 25000 persons had attended a “witches’ Sabbath” on a plain near Brescia. In 1518 the inquisitors burned seventy alleged witches from the region, and had thousands of suspects in their prisons.. The Signory of Brescia protested against this wholesale detention, and interfered with further executions; whereupon Leo X, in a bull ‘Honestus ‘( February 15, 1521 ) ordered the excommunication of any officials, and the suspension of religious services in any community  that refused to execute, without examination or revision, the sentences of the inquisitors.

The Signory, ignoring the bull, appointed two bishops, two Brescian physicians and on inquisitor to supervise all further witchcraft trials, and to enquire into the justice of previous condemnations; only these men were to have the power to condemn the accused. The Signory admonished the papal legate to put an end to the condemnation of persons for the sake of confiscating their property. It was a brave procedure; but ignorance and sadism got the upper hand, and in the two next centuries, in Protestant as well as Catholic lands, in the New World as well as the old, burnings for witchcraft were to form the darkest spots in the history of mankind.

The mania to know the future supported the usual variety of fortune-tellers-- palmists, dream interpreters, astrologers; These last were more numerous and powerful in Italy than in the rest of Europe. When Lorenzo de’ Medici re-established the University of Pisa he made no arrangements for a course in astrology, but the students clamoured for it, and he had to yield. In Lorenzo’s erudite circle Pico della Mirandola wrote a powerful attack upon astrology, but Marsilio Facino, still more learned, defended it. Yet astrology had in it a certain groping toward a scientific view of the universe; it escaped in some measure from belief in a universe ruled by divine or demonic whim, and aimed to find a co-ordinating and universal natural law.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1410 on: July 06, 2011, 01:35:54 PM »
Is it just my imagination- or my lack of memory - or are those first two paragraphs a change in writing style for the Durants? The style seems a personal statement of historiography, rather than a statement of historical facts.  I found it interesting but curious.

I wasn't here for the first several volumes, have they talked about witchcraft and its effect on women before this?

I'm watching "The Tudors" which has a lot of examples of the state/church confiscating property after accusing the owners of something or other. The Bill of Rights diminished that action significantly, thank goodness, but the issue of public domain is still often controversial.

Again, i find myself ambivalent about enjoying the artifacts of a minorities wealth - estates, art, jewels of that small royal/church hierarchy class - but at the same time, sad about the effect on ordinary people of the time and their resulting and continuing poverty. Altho having the court system, and building and maintaining those estates, did give thousands of people employment. It's like having the two little devils, one  on each shoulder who are saying " on the one hand.......and on the other hand........" if i believed in astrology, i'd say it's my Libra-self being manifested........:)

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1411 on: July 06, 2011, 07:44:24 PM »
"In every age and nation, civilization is the product, privilege, and responsibility of a minority. The historian acquainted with the pervasive pertinacity of nonsense reconciles himself to a glorious future of superstition; he does not expect perfect states to arise out of imperfect men; he perceives that only a small proportion of any generation can be so freed from economic harassments as to have leisure and energy to think their own thoughts instead of those of their forebears or their environment; and he learns to rejoice if he can find in each period a few men and women who have lifted themselves, by the bootstraps of their brains, or by some boon of birth or circumstance, out of superstition, occultism, and credulity to an informed and friendly intelligence conscious of its infinite ignorance. "

this is the Durants at their Durantyist! The Durant who left the Church disillusioned. He doesn't show this side of him often, but it comes through. A break in their real attempt to be judicious and fair. In other words, they're human.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1412 on: July 06, 2011, 09:59:13 PM »
Jean, (Mabel) I throughly enjoyed reading your post.

We have discussed witchcraft at one time or another through the years of this discussion. Evidently it has been around since man first hit on the idea of blaming women for most of the worlds problems, and that was before they could even read or write and put it into their law. Judaism put it in the Torah and I paraphrase, 'thou shall not suffer a witch to live'.

When the Jews created Christianity and sold it to the Roman Emperor, the Romans pushed it on the rest of Europe, as they entered into the Dark Ages.

The Roman Catholic Church became the enforcers against so called 'witches'.

There is no way to imagine a more 'uncivilized' act than that.

Emily





 

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1413 on: July 06, 2011, 10:49:05 PM »
Mabel1015j asks "I wasn't here for the first several volumes, have they talked about witchcraft and its effect on women before this?"

Durant talks about the subjugation of women to men on page 33 of the very first volume in the series. The word witchcraft appears first in VOL 3,  " The Life of Greece " but from the trend in the discussion, it is clear that Durant thought that ideas of witchcraft were common in earlier mid-east civilizations.  Trevor

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1414 on: July 07, 2011, 12:18:33 AM »
Joan, I agree with your assessment of Durant. He sometimes did bend over to defend the church and take their side in an argument. This time however he questioned all religion and its origins. It was good to read a grain of truth from Durant in the sea of superstition and occultism that forms all religions.

Up unto the Twentieth Century few men had the courage to take on religions and their occult beginnings, and if they did they were quickly silenced or eliminated. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all had the death penalty for non believers. Those middle east religions did not tolerate any thinking for yourself.

Today all three of these Arab religions down play their bloody birth, but they have been the cause of more death and destruction and waste of human potential than all of the natural disasters ever visited on humanity.

Emily


Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1415 on: July 07, 2011, 12:31:14 AM »
Trevor, thank you for the information Jean asked about. These almost ten years have taken a toll on my memory bank.

I heard that Eloise was seriously ill and since she posted in this discussion over the years, I thought I should mention it here. She dropped out when Senior Net went down, but she was a regular over several years. I am sorry to hear of her health problems and wish her well.

Emily

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1416 on: July 07, 2011, 04:01:46 PM »
Eloise is indeed quite ill. They do not know how long she has. For more detail, look in The Library.

I'm sure she would appreciate cards. Here is her address:

E.DePelteau
10207 Av Larose
Montreal Quebec
Canada
H2B 2Y8

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1417 on: July 07, 2011, 06:04:51 PM »
Definitely send a card to Eloise. When Don (Radioman) asked, she was quite "emphatic" about it.

I've noticed in earlier volumes occasional critical comments that led me to believe that the Durants were not particularly fond of organized religion if not religious beliefs as a whole.

I am convinced that many people used the hunt for witches and heretics was used by more than a few people to accuse and destroy rivals and others who were not well liked, or were a little odd (as in mental illness or mental disabilities). The other nasty bit was that they didn't stop at witches, but collected and burned cats as well.



 

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1418 on: July 07, 2011, 08:04:10 PM »
Thank you Joan for the address for Eloise. I had hoped she could join us to celebrate our Tenth year this fall. So many of the early posters are no longer with us.

Trevor is still going strong, and for that I am thankful.

Emily

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1419 on: July 07, 2011, 11:10:53 PM »
I'm so sorry to hear about Eloise. I have enjoyed her contributions on this and other sites.

Thank you all for your answers to my questions, especially to Trevor for your specificity of Durant's discussion of witches. Do you have all the volumes?

There is an interesting theme in those two paragraphs of "minorities" in societies. In the first sentence they (i suppose by this volume Ariel has been acknowledged as co-author? Maybe that's why it reads a little differently) speak to the effect of the "minority" as the motivators/providers  of the civilization of society. Then they speak of the small number of persons who had thelack of "economic harrassment" (love that phrase) to be able to think for themselves. They then lead us to thinking about the people who were burned at the stake for witchcraft over the centuries, "to form the darkest spots in the history of mankind". Yes, but overall a relative minority of people were burned. But it was ONE pope with his bull (interesting word from the sense of how that word can be used today) who scared the hell out of the masses and created the hysteria of the 25,000.

If i was teaching this in class, i would use this passage as a jumping off point to talk about a mythology of history.......... I bet most people who are not students of history, off the top of their heads, perceive that the great periods and twists and turns of history are created by majorities in societies, when in reality most major events of history are created by a minority, if not a few!.........any thoughts on that?

Jean   

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1420 on: July 09, 2011, 03:17:26 PM »
" I bet most people who are not students of history, off the top of their heads, perceive that the great periods and twists and turns of history are created by majorities in societies, when in reality most major events of history are created by a minority, if not a few!.........any thoughts on that?"

That's worthy of a lot of thoughts, and people have gone back and forth about it. Yes, "one pope with his bull" created hysteria, but only because there was already an atmosphere that was ready for hysteria. If the pope today issued that bull, would the same thing happen?

I personally don't believe that history is created ONLY by individuals or ONLY by overall trends. Ther is a mixture. What do othes think?

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1421 on: July 10, 2011, 10:57:35 PM »
Durants'  SoC
Vol V The Renaissance
Pages 528-530



                                                                 SCIENCE

The superstitions of the people, rather than the opposition of the church retarded the development of  science. Censorship of publications did not become a substantial hindrance to science until the Counter Reformation that followed the council of Trent. ( 1545f ). Sixtus IV brought to Rome ( 1463 ) the most famous astronomer of the fifteenth century, Johann Muller “Regiomontanus”. During Alexander’s pontificate Copernicus taught mathematics and astronomy in the University of Rome. Copernicus had not yet come to his world-shaking theory of the earth’s orbital revolution, but Nicholas of Cusa had already suggested it; and both men were churchmen. Throughout the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries the Inquisition was relatively weak in Italy, partly through the absence of the popes in Avignon, their quarrels in the Schism, and their infection with the enlightenment of the Renaissance. In 1440, the materialist Amadeo de’ Landi was tried by the Inquisition at Milan, and was acquitted; in 1497 Gabriele da Salo, a free thinking physician, was protected from the Inquisition by his patron, though “ he was in the habit of maintaining that Christ was not God but the son of Joseph.” Despite the inquisition, thought was freer in Italy, and education more advanced, than in any other country in the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries. Her schools of astronomy, law, medicine, and literature were the goals of students from a dozen lands. Thomas Linacre, English physician and scholar, after completion of his university courses in Italy, set up an alter in the Italian Alps as he was returning to England, and, taking a last view of Italy, dedicated the altar to her as ‘Alma mater studiorum,’ the fostering mother of studies, the postgraduate university of the Christian world.

If, in this atmosphere of superstition beneath, and liberalism above, science made only modest advances in the two centuries before Vesalius ( 1514-64), it was largely because patronage and honour went to art, scholarship, and poetry, and there was as yet no clear call, in the economic or intellectual life of Italy, for scientific methods and ideas. A man like Leonardo could take a sweeping cosmic view, and touch a dozen sciences with eager curiosity; but there were no great laborities, dissection was only beginning, no microscope could help biology or medicine, no telescope could yet enlarge the stars, and bring the moon to the edge of the earth. The medieval love of beauty had matured into magnificent art; but  there had been little medieval love of truth to grow into science; and the recovery of ancient literature stimulated a sceptical Epicureanism idealizing antiquity, rather than a stoic devotion to scientific research aiming to mould the future. the Renaissance gave its soul to art, leaving a little for literature, less for philosophy, least for science. In this sense it lacked the multiform mental activity of the Greek heyday from Pericles and Aeschylus to Zeno the Stoic and Aristarchus the astronomer. Science could not advance until philosophy had cleared the way.

Therefore it is natural that the same reader who knows by name a dozen Renaissance artists will find it hard to recall one Renaissance Italian scientist , barring Leonardo; even of Amerigo Vespucci he will have to be reminded; and Galileo ( 1564--1642) belongs to the seventeenth century. In truth there are no memorable names except in geography and medicine. Odorise Pordenone went to India and China as a missionary ( c, 1321 ), returned via Tibet and Persia, and wrote an account of what he had seen, adding much of value to what Marco Polo had reported a generation before. Paolo Toscanelli, astronomer, physician, and geographer, noted Halley’s comet in 1456, and was reputed to have given Columbus knowledge and encouragement for his Atlantic venture. Amerigo Vespucci of Florence made four voyages to the New World (1497f), claimed to have been the first to discover the mainland, and prepared maps of it; Martin Waldseemuller, publishing them, suggested that the continent be called America; the Italians liked the idea, and popularized it in their writings.

The biological sciences were the last to develop, for the theory of the special creation of man -- almost universally accepted --  made it unnecessary and dangerous to inquire into his natural origin. For the most part these sciences limited themselves to practical pursuits and studies in medical botany, horticulture, floriculture, and agriculture. Pietro de’ Crescenzi, at the age of seventy-six ( 1306), published Ruralia Commoda, an admirable manual of agriculture, except that it ignored the still better writings of the Spanish Moslems in this field. Lorenzo de’ Medici had kept a semi-public garden of rare plants at Carregi; the first public botanical garden was founded by Luca Ghini at Pisa in 1544. Almost all rulers of style had zoological gardens; and Cardinal Ippolito de’ Medici kept a human menagerie -- a collection of barbarians of twenty different nationalities, all of splendid physique

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1422 on: July 11, 2011, 09:41:12 AM »
Almost all rulers of style had zoological gardens; and Cardinal Ippolito de’ Medici kept a human menagerie -- a collection of barbarians of twenty different nationalities, all of splendid physique


I don't like the sounds of that. Reminds me of several SciFi programs/movies that had people in zoo cages for display.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1423 on: July 12, 2011, 04:53:38 PM »
"beauty had matured into magnificent art; but  there had been little medieval love of truth to grow into science; and the recovery of ancient literature stimulated a sceptical Epicureanism idealizing antiquity, rather than a stoic devotion to scientific research aiming to mould the future. "

It's been a long time since we read about the difference between the stoics and the epicureans: does this seem a fair contrast?

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1424 on: July 12, 2011, 11:55:48 PM »
Joan, it does seem a fair comparison if one considers the 'stoics' as devoted to scientific research.

This quote from Durant says that nothing trumped the world of the 'Occult'.

Quote
The biological sciences were the last to develop, for the theory of the special creation of man -- almost universally accepted --  made it unnecessary and dangerous to inquire into his natural origin.

I vehemently disagree with the words, 'almost universally accepted'. To say the Arab gods were accepted universally during the time period 1100AD to 1500AD stretches credulity.

During that time period of the Renaissance, who in the entirety of the Americas, that includes Canada, United States, Mexico, Central America, and South America knew anything about the Arab gods at the end of the Fifteenth century when they were discovered by Europeans.

China certainly did not adopt the Arab gods, India had been invaded by the Moslems but most remained Hindu or other sects. The world outside the middle east and Europe was not even aware of the Arab created gods. I would venture to say that the 'majority' of the peoples of the world had never heard of 'yahweh', 'Jesus', or 'Allah'.

I would also venture to say that even those who had heard the 'occult tales' of the Arab gods, many did not believe a word they said.

As Durant said, it was 'dangerous'...........

Fear is the mother of superstition.

Emily

 






Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1425 on: July 13, 2011, 12:38:38 AM »
Quote
Almost all rulers of style had zoological gardens; and Cardinal Ippolito de’ Medici kept a human menagerie -- a collection of barbarians of twenty different nationalities, all of splendid physique.

Frybabe, here is what Wikipedia says about the 'human zoo' during the Renaissance.

Quote
During the Renaissance, the Medicis developed a large menagerie in the Vatican. In the 16th century, Cardinal Hippolytus Medici had a collection of people of different races as well as exotic animals. He is reported as having a troup of "Barbarians", speaking over twenty languages and there were also Moors, Tartars, Indians, Turks and Africans.

There doesn't seem to be much information on the Vatican's 'human zoo' except what we have read from Durant's short paragraph, and this one from wiki. The reason we do not know much is the 'Vatican' has kept the information secreted, away from prying eyes, or simply destroyed after the fact.

Since most historians agree that Leo X was a homosexual, the fact of having all those 'barbarians' of splendid physique hanging around must have been desirable. Otherwise they would have been in the Roman slave market on the auction block to make money since Leo was always in need of more funds.

Leo's secretary said that Leo was 'not active' during his reign as Pope. Leo did arrive in Rome on a 'litter' because of a fistula on his anus, but that did not mean that he could not 'look'.

A motto for Leo: Only capture the young, good looking, well built guys.

Amen.

Emily


mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1426 on: July 13, 2011, 07:20:10 PM »
I haven't had time to read the most recent posting, but i saw this in my email from a history site "wonders and marvels" that relates to our previous discussion about history changers.

http://www.wondersandmarvels.com/2011/07/mightier-than-the-sword.html

Jean

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1427 on: July 16, 2011, 06:12:13 PM »
The Human Zoo..............

This New York Times article writes about the stories in the paper back in Sept. 1906. The story was about Oto Benga, a Congolese pygmy and the fact that he became part of an exhibit at the Monkey House in the zoo.

Here is an excerpt from the editorial written in the NYT on Sept. 1906 about Oto Benga.

Quote
The New York Times wrote in an editorial: “Not feeling particularly vehement excitement ourselves over the exhibition of an African ‘pigmy’ in the Primate House of the Zoological Park, we do not quite understand all the emotion which others are expressing in the matter. Still, the show is not exactly a pleasant one, and we do wonder that the Director did not foresee and avoid the scoldings now aimed in his direction.” The editorial added, “As for Benga himself, he is probably enjoying himself as well as he could anywhere in his country, and it is absurd to make moan over the imagined humiliation and degradation he is suffering.”

Poor Oto Benga, in his own country of the Congo he was a slave and not accepted by his captors (a different tribe), and in America he never found acceptance either, even from his fellow Africans. What does everyone think about the NYT editorial?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/06/nyregion/thecity/06zoo.html?ei=5087&en=c2cc9b84edc068cd&ex=1155009600&pagewanted=all

Emily

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1428 on: July 17, 2011, 12:51:39 AM »
Durants'  SoC
Vol. V  The Renaissance
Pages 530-533


                                                III  MEDICINE
The most prosperous science was medicine, for men will sacrifice anything but appetite for health. Physicians received a stimulating share of Italy’s new wealth. Padua paid one of them two thousand ducats a year to serve as a consultant, while leaving him free to charge for his private practice. Petrarch, standing on his benefices, indignantly denounced the high fees of physicians, their robes of scarlet and their miniver hoods, their sparkling rings and golden spurs. He earnestly warned the sick Pope Clement VI against trusting physicians:
“I know that your bedside is beleaguered by doctors, and naturally this fills me with fear. Their opinions are always conflicting, and he who has nothing new to say,  suffers the shame of limping behind the others. As Pliny said, in order to make a name for themselves through some novelty, they traffic with our lives. With them,-- not as with other trades—it is sufficient to be called a physician to be believed to the last word, and yet a physician’s lie harbours more danger than any other. Only sweet hope causes us not to think of the situation. They learn their art at our expense, and even our death brings them experience; the physician alone has the right kill with impunity. Oh, most Gentle Father, look upon their band as an army of enemies. Remember the warning epitaph which an unfortunate man had inscribed on his headstone: “I died of two many physicians.”

In all civilized lands and times physicians have rivalled women for the distinction of being the most desirable and satirized of mankind.

The basis of progress in medicine was the renaissance of anatomy. Ecclesiastics, co-operating with physicians as well as with artists, sometimes corpses for dissection from the hospitals that they controlled. Mondino de’ Luzzi dissected cadavers at Bologna, and wrote an ‘Anatomia’ ( 1316 ), which remained a classic text for three centuries. In 1319 some medical students at Bologna stole a corpse from a cemetery  and brought it to the teacher at the University who dissected it for their instruction. The students were prosecuted but acquitted, and from that time  the authorities winked an eye at the use of executed and unclaimed criminals in “anatomies.” Dissection was practised at the University of Pisa at least as early as 1341; soon it was permitted at all the medical schools of Italy, including the papal school of medicine in Rome. Sixtus IV ( 1471- 84 ) officially authorized such dissections. Meanwhile the new art of printing accelerated medical progress by facilitating the diffusion and international exchange of medical texts.

We may loosely estimate the medieval relapse of medical science in Latin Christendom by noting that the most advanced anatomists and physicians of this age had barely reached, by 1500, the knowledge possessed by Hippocrates, Galen, and Soranus in the period from 450 B.C. to A.D. 200. The first known transfusion of blood was attempted by a Jewish physician, in the case of Pope Innocent VIII (1492); it failed. Michele Savonarola, father of the fiery  friar, wrote a ‘Practica medicinae “ ( c. 1440) and some shorter treatises; one of these discussed the frequency of mental pathology ( bizaria ) in great artists; another told of noted men who had lived long by the daily use of alcoholic drinks.

Medical quacks were still numerous, but medical practice was now more careful regulated by law. Penalties were prescribed for persons who practised medicine without a medical degree; and this presumed a four year medical course. (1500) No physician was allowed to prognose a grave disease except by consultation with a colleague. Venetian legislation required physicians and surgeons to meet once a month to exchange clinical notes, and to keep their knowledge up to date by attending a course on anatomy at least once a year. The graduating medical student had to swear that he would never protract the sickness of a patient, that he would supervise the preparation if his prescriptions and that he would take no part of the price charged by the apothecary for filling them. The same law ( Venice, 1368 ) limited the apothecary’s charge for filling a prescription to ten ‘soldi’  -- coins now impossible to evaluate. We hear of several cases in which the medical fee, by specific contract, was made conditional on cure.
Surgery was rising rapidly in repute as its repertoire of operations and instruments approached the variety and competence of ancient Egyptian practice. Bernardo da Rapallo devised the perineal operation for stone ( 1451)  and Mariano Santo became famous for his many successful lithotomies by lateral incision ( c. 1530) Giovanni da Vigo, surgeon to Julius II, developed better methods of ligature for arteries and veins. Plastic surgery, known to the ancients, reappeared in Scilly about 1450: mutilated noses, lips, and ears were repaired by grafts of skin taken from other parts of the body, and so well that the lines of adhesion could scarcely be detected.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1429 on: July 17, 2011, 08:47:57 AM »
I didn't realize that skin grafting had such a long history.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1430 on: July 17, 2011, 01:06:04 PM »
Here are some prints and engravings from anatomy in the Renaissance period. Move the cursor across the picture to enlarge or read the short excerpt on each, and click on the numerical link within the article.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/anat/hd_anat.htm

Emily

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1431 on: July 17, 2011, 01:27:43 PM »
In reading history we so often hear of the unhelpful mistakes that physcians were practicing that it makes one wonder why anyone would call a doctor, so there must have been successes often enough for people to have some faith in them. I remember being astonished when reading- let's see if my memory serves me - "The Egyptian"??? In the 1950's. There was a story of a doctor performing brain  surgery - removing a piece of the skull and then a tumor(?) i'm not sure if i'm remembering right about the tumor, or if he just removed the piece of skull to relieve pressure on the brain. The story, of course, was set in one or two thousand B.C. at the height if the Egyptian civilization.

Also, in studying women's history i read so often about women who were expert at medicine, especially childbirth and herbal meds. It's generally accepted that when doctors were first required to have medical degrees in the U.S. that more women died from the male doctor's
lack of experience and cleanliness than died from being cared for by midwives. We don't read so much about them in general histories

In all civilized lands and times physicians have rivalled women for the distinction of being the most desirable and satirized of mankind.
 


Interesting comment, i have to think about that statement

Jean

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1432 on: July 17, 2011, 06:57:07 PM »
Jean, you may well be remembering correctly. I do know that ancient South American cultures were practicing trepanation. I looked up the history and several sites say it has been practiced for 7000 years. The oldest skull was found in France. I found mention of its' use in Africa, Asia, Mesopotamia, ancient Greece and Rome, and South America. It is apparently still practiced today, but I didn't catch where.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1433 on: July 17, 2011, 11:40:46 PM »
The first paragraph of this latest excerpt interested me enough to read it again. The following excerpts from that paragraph impressed because of how I was taught from childhood onward.

"They traffic with our lives"

"A physician's lie harbours more danger than any other"

"They learn their art at our expense"

"Our death brings them experience"

"The physician alone has the right to kill with impunity"

"Look upon their band as an army of enemies"

Although in my family we don't look upon them as an 'army of enemies', I was taught to take every mans measure and act in my own self interest. If unsure, wait and think it over. Today, we are told to get a second opinion if there are questions.

I never go to a doctor unless I have a problem I can't solve myself. I've never had a checkup. My mother has never had a checkup and she is ninety eight. We both avoid doctors and prescription medicine with the exception of an anti-biotic when necessary. The only medicine in my house is Aloe and neosporin, and the Aloe is grown by me. I did have a small bottle of aspirin, but it was so old that I threw it away a few months ago.

I took my cues from my mother whose method was to rub some camphorated oil or aloe on the problem. We can no longer buy the camphorated oil here.

We believe in vaccines and penicillin and that is about it as far as medicines are concerned.

Today, the warning should be 'Beware of doctors bearing prescription pads'.

Emily





 

JoeF

  • Posts: 13
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1434 on: July 18, 2011, 06:00:05 PM »
Hello,
i just learned of this site, after joining on another venue. I have a complete set of the "Story of Civilization" by Will & Ariel Durant, in great condition, for sale. Please let me know if anyone is interested in this 11 volume set. Thank you, JoeF
"The Irish do not lend themselves to psychoanalysis." -- S. Freud

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1435 on: July 19, 2011, 03:27:14 PM »
WELCOME, JoeF. Do join us. We have been going 10 years and are up to the 1500s.

We don't need the books to follow, since trevor kindly posts excerpts for us. but I'm sure someone would like a set.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1436 on: July 19, 2011, 03:31:36 PM »
On medicine, I remember that GINY once posted a tool from ancient Rome, and asked if we could tell what it was. it was a speculum, and hadn't changed at all for 2000 years. I mentioned this to a doctor who said that women should be angry that in all that time, a better one hadn't been invented. When she retires, that is what she wants to do.

In our day, we've taken some of the pressure off doctors and transferred it to lawyers.

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1437 on: July 23, 2011, 11:53:50 PM »
Durants'   SoC
Vol V  The Renaissance
Pages  533-537

                                                 Medicine
Public sanitation was improving. As Doge of Venice (1343-1354), Andrea Dandolo established the first known municipal commission of public health;  other Italian cities followed the example. These ‘magistrati della sanita’ tested all foods and drugs offered for sale, and isolated the victims of some contagious diseases. As a result of the Black Death, Venice in 1374 excluded from her port all ships carrying persons or goods  suspected of infection. Hospitals were multiplying under the zeal of both laity and clergy. Siena built in 1305 a hospital famous for its size and services, and Francesco Sforza founded the Ospedale Maggiore in Milan (1456). Florence in the fifteenth century had thirty-five hospitals. These establishments were generously supported by public and private donations. Luther, who was so shocked by the immorality that he found in Italy in 1511, was also impressed by its charitable and medical institutions. He described the hospitals in his ‘Table Talk’:

“In Italy the hospitals are handsomely built, and admirably provided with excellent food and drink, careful attendants, and learned physicians. The beds and bedding are clean, and the walls are covered with paintings. When a patient is brought in, his clothes are removed in the presence of a notary who makes a faithful inventory of them, and they are kept safely. A white smock is put on him, and he is laid on a comfortable bed, with clean linen. Presently, two doctors come to him, and servants bring him food and drink in clean vessels.... Many ladies take turns to visit the hospitals and tend the sick, keeping their faces veiled, so that no one knows who they are; each remains a few days and returns home, another taking her place... Equally excellent are the foundling asylums of Florence, where the children are well fed and taught, suitably clothed in a uniform, and altogether admirably cared for.”

It is often the fatality of medicine that its heroic advances in therapy are balanced -- almost pursued-- by new diseases. Smallpox and measles, hardly known in Europe before the sixteenth century, now come to the fore; Europe experienced its first recorded influenza epidemic in 1510; and epidemics of typhus- a disease not mentioned before 1477 --  swept Italy in 1505 and 1528. But it was the sudden appearance and rapid dissemination of syphilis in Italy and France toward the end of the fifteenth century that constituted the most startling phenomenon and test of Renaissance medicine. Whether syphilis existed in Europe before 1493, or was brought from America by the return of Columbus in that year, is a matter still debated by the well informed, and not to be settled here.

In any case the new disease spread with terrifying speed. Caesar Borgia apparently contracted it in France. Many cardinals, and Julius II himself, were infected, but we must allow the possibility, in such instances, of infection by innocent contact with persons or objects bearing the active germ. The Church preached chastity as the one prophylaxis needed, and many churchmen practised it.

The name syphilis was first applied to the disease by Girolamo Fracastoro, one of the most varied and yet best integrated characters of the Renaissance. He had a good start: he was born in Verona (1483 )of a patrician family that had already produced outstanding physicians. At Padua he studied almost everything. He had Copernicus as a fellow student, and Pomponazzi and Achillini to teach him philosophy and anatomy; at twenty-four he was himself professor of logic. Soon he retired to devote himself to scientific, above all medical, research, tempered with fond study of classic literature. The association of science and letters produced a rounded personality, and a remarkable poem, written in Latin on the model of Virgil’s ‘Georgics’ and entitled ‘Syphilis, sive de morbo gallico’ (1521). Italians since Lucretius have excelled in writing poetical didactic poetry, but who would have supposed that the undulant spirochete would lend itself to fluent verse?  Syphilis, in ancient mythology was a shepherd who decided to worship not the gods, whom he could not see, but the king, the only visible lord of the flock; whereupon angry Apollo infected the air with noxious vapors, from which Syphilis contracted a disease fouled with ulcerous eruptions over his body; this is essentially the story of Job. Fracastoro proposed to trace the first appearance, epidemic spread, causes, and therapy of  “a fierce and rare sickness never before seen for centuries past, which ravished all of Europe and the flourishing cities of Asia and Libya, and invaded Italy in that unfortunate war whence from the Gauls it has its name”. He doubted that the ailment came from America, for it appeared almost simultaneously in many European countries far apart.

The poem goes on to discuss treatment by mercury or by guaiac-- a “holy wood” used by the American Indians. In a later work, ‘ De contagione,” Frascastoro dealt in prose with various contagious diseases  --syphilis, typhus, tuberculosis--  and the modes of contagion by which they could be spread. In 1545 he was called by Paul II to be head physician for the council of Trent. Verona raised a noble monument to his memory, and Giovanni dal Cavino graved his likeness on a medallion which is one of the finest works of its kind.

Before 1500 it was usual to class all contagious diseases together under the indiscriminate name of the “ Plague “. It was one measure of the progress of medicine that it now clearly distinguished and diagnosed the specific character of an epidemic, and was prepared to deal with so sudden and virulent an eruption as syphilis. Mere reliance on Hippocrates and Galen could never have sufficed in such a crisis; it was because the medical profession had learned the necessity of ever fresh and detailed study of symptoms, causes, and cures, in an ever widening  and intercommunicated experience, that it could meet this unexpected test.

And it was because of such high qualifications, devotion, and practical success, that the better class of physicians was now recognized as belonging to the untitled aristocracy of Italy. Having completely secularized their profession, they made it more respected than the clergy. Several of them were not only medical but as well the political advisers, and the frequent and favored companions, of princes, prelates, and kings. Many of them were humanists, familiar with classical literature, collecting manuscripts and works of art; often they were the close friends of great artists. Finally, many of them realized the Hippocratic ideal of adding philosophy to medicine; they passed with ease from one subject to another in their studies and their teaching; and they gave the professional philosophical fraternity a stimulus to subject Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas --  as they subjected Hippocrates, Galen, and Avicenna -- to a fresh and fearless examination of reality.


JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1438 on: July 25, 2011, 07:43:30 PM »
It's neat that the Durant's cover such a wide spectrum of subjects in the Story. I always wondered where Syphillis got its name.

Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1439 on: July 25, 2011, 10:53:25 PM »
It's interested that the Durants equated the Syphilis myth with the story of Job. Surely there was much more to Job than skin ulcers. I must find and reread the myth.