Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371875 times)

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #720 on: January 19, 2010, 08:03:50 PM »
now that is really compassionate Justin. as for details

the other discussion group, the one called Seniors&Friends has a very varied FORUM.  in fact if you go there the first thing you do is I guess select the word from the blue stripe across the top FORUM or maybe you have to sign in first easy enough I guess. Most of us did it a couple of yers ago when Seniornet died.

then you do down the list untill you find continuing discussions under LIBRARY???. I'm not sure. maybe I will just find a hot link and put it in here. I was thinking of quiting and just letting them stew. this is possible by  disabling the NOTIFY option in our blue stripe.

ok onwad to the fray and to pick up the url. this is the first place to go. to sign in etc.

http://www.seniorsandfriends.org/ind

claire
thimk

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #721 on: January 19, 2010, 08:17:40 PM »
this is a link from the url slop but it may not be enough.  good luck. . . claire
http://www.seniorsandfriends.org/index.php?action=post;topic=1231.0;num_replies=587
thimk

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #722 on: January 20, 2010, 12:48:19 PM »

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #723 on: January 20, 2010, 03:08:37 PM »
brian, I didn't know that existed. In the beginning there were only four or five of us who wanted to keep things civil and who wanted to stay on thread.  the inroads made into religeous discussions by believers were so destructive that most of us non believers didn't stay. so you may see that I have been aggressive in trying to stay on thread here. that's how it started and I was just trying to keep it that way. so it is good to have you and justin interested . Pat likes civility.

so do I really but directness is probably my style. This is a serious issue for me..
claire
thimk

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #724 on: January 20, 2010, 04:04:09 PM »
Claire - - -  I was interested when you said that you had come under fire, and I tried to find the discussion group.  Pat has evidently placed it on a HTTPS (extra security) link, and now asks for a personal email addressed to her, in order for members to join this particular discussion.  I will possibly lurk on the discussion, as I am not especially fired up on the subject of religion.  As I have stated before - - - you cannot change a person's mind when it is firmly made up. either on religion or sex !!!

I like civility also.

Brian.

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #725 on: January 20, 2010, 07:56:29 PM »
there is a woman named ANGELFACE who has moved slightly from a strongly held belief in INTELLIGENT DESIGN to one of maybe several such designs at different times and places. so at least she is THIMKING. ALSO SHE WAS monopolizing the place with long repetitive posts. She's a nice lady just a nuisance. I got irritated after a while which is when Ursa the she bear hopped in to tell me to mind my manners. I have this short fuse or I'd have left then.  just was curious about what would happen next and refused to  lose n argument. It is a problem sometimes for me.  The devils advocate always on the alert.

smiles

Claire
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #726 on: January 22, 2010, 03:30:39 PM »
Claire: Well I'm in. I entered general discussion 6 and found Mahlia holding forth. There is an interesting discussion going on about music. I looked for one covering painting or even art in general but have not seen  one. Which discussion are you in? I see Bubble is in one, maybe more. I wonder if it is the same Bubble we have known here in SOC.

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #727 on: January 22, 2010, 03:55:31 PM »
hi justin

brian showed up i the atheist,agnostic,humanist one that I spoke of having e-mailed to pat and gaining access.  there is an art discussion with very little action, but I get confused because of the two different sites for seniors both hosted by pretty much the same people. for the religious one look for SOAPBOX which has the political one two. ask brian what he did exactly from there.  this seniorLearn group of which this is a part  is mostly books.  the seniors and friends has  much more diversity.And yes that is our Bubble. . . .

Photos and much more is a lead in to art I think. . .

claire
thimk

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #728 on: January 22, 2010, 07:15:33 PM »
Brian: Bubble is everywhere, as bubbly as ever. Did you join "Classical music"? that's a great one, if you like classical music: we listen to concerts together.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #729 on: January 22, 2010, 07:32:42 PM »
Justin - - -  if you want to join the "Atheisticism/Agnosticism/Humanism" discussion group you need to drop an email to Pat to gain access to it - - - it only takes a moment.

Start here  : -
http://www.seniorsandfriends.org/index.php?topic=1288.msg140938#msg140938

JoanK - - -  the older I get, the less time I have.  I love classical music, but tend to be very choosy about what I listen to.  I mostly use my CDs.

Does any one think we should return to the SOC? - - - I may not have another nine years to finish the saga.

Brian



winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #730 on: January 22, 2010, 10:29:42 PM »
returning to SOC of course if you are a history buff. I just go there when what they are discussing applies to what I find interesting, often a parallel between then and now. Robby tries to bring that up often enough to keep things going. And I find the art interesting because. . . . .

claire
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #731 on: January 23, 2010, 01:38:24 AM »
Yes, of course, Brian. Do not be pessimistic. I fully expect to finish the set and have time left over to think about starting another. Just think, I'll only be 95. That's the time in life when we become childish and I am looking forward to finding pleasure in jumping rope and hop scotch.

Robby, where are we? You led us away and like sheep, we went. Now, like the prodigal, we wish to return.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #732 on: January 23, 2010, 01:44:03 PM »
Of course we expect a fatted calf (to mix a metaphor).

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #733 on: January 24, 2010, 07:06:38 AM »
Interesting how the brain has its own links.  Its thoughts go from popes to battles between popes to the meanings of religion to the doubters of God to atheism.  Let us now return to Durant.


The popes felt themselves thoroughly justified in claiming a degree and area of temporal power.

 As the heads of an international organization they could not afford to be the captives of any one state, as they had been in effect in Avignon.  So trammeled, they could hardly serve all peoples impartially, much less realize their majestic dream of being the spiritual governors of every government.  Though the “Donation of Constantine” was a palpable forgery (as Nicholas admitted by hiring Valla), the donation of central Italy to the papacy by Popin confirmed by Charlemagne was an historical fact.  The popes had coined their own money at least as far back as 782 and for centuries no one had questioned their right.

  The unification of local powers, feudal or martial, in a central government was taking place in the Papal States as in the other nations of Europe.  If the popes from Nicholas V to Clement VII ruled their states as absolute monarchs they were following the fashion of the times.  They could with reason complain when reformers like Chancellor Gerson of the University of Paris proposed democracy in the Church but deprecated it in the state.  Neither state nor Church was ready for democracy at a time when printing had not yet begun or spread.  Nicholas V became pope seven years before Gutenberg printed his Bible, thirty years before printing reached Rome, forty eight years before the first publication of Aldus Manutius.
\
 Democracy is a luxury of disseminated intelligence, security and peace.

The secular rule of the popes directly applied to what antiquity had called Latium (now Latzio), a small province lying between Tuscany, Umbria, the Kingdom of Naples, and the Tyrrhenian Sea.  Beyond this they claimed also Umb ria, the Marches, and the Romagna (the ancient Romania).  These four regions together made a broad belt across central Italy from sea to sea.

 They contained some twenty-six cities, which the popes, when they could, ruled by vicars, or divided among provincial governors.  Furthermore, Sicily and the whole Kingdom of Naples were claimed as papal fiefs on the basis of an agreement between Pope Innocent III and Frederick II.  The payment of an annual feudal fee by these states to the papacy became a major source of quarrels between the Regno and the popes.  Finally the Countess Matilda had bequeathed to the popes, as her feudal domain, practically all of Tuscany, including Florence, Lucca, Pistoia, Pisa, Siena, and Arezzo.

  Overall all these the popes claimed the rights of a feudal sovereign, but were rarely able to give effect to their claim.


There are those who have power and those who claim power.   

Robby

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #734 on: January 24, 2010, 11:49:04 AM »
Democracy is a luxury of disseminated intelligence, security and peace.
Is it still, or was it for the time?

jean

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #735 on: January 24, 2010, 06:01:07 PM »
JEAN: I highlighted the same sentance you did. The Durants always make you think, don't they?

Democracy is a luxury of disseminated intelligence, security and peace.

If intellegence is used to mean knowledge (knowing what's going on) rather than smarts, I agree. There's no way for people to vote if they have no way of knowing what's happening. the (limited) democracy in Athens presumably worked because it was a small city: people could go to a central place, hear the candidates and issues etc.

And without security, people are afraid to vote. I still remember in the 60s working as a poll worker, and learning that the Blacks in the area had been told they would lose their jobs id they didn't vote for Wallace. I'll never forget the fear in a Blak man's eyes when he asked me whether people could tell how they voted. I started to reassure him, but all the other poll workers were telling him yes, people could tell. I shut up: for all I knew they were right.

And in war, all leaders act despotically. It is the strength of this country, not that it has never happened, but that, after the danger has passed, people react against it, and relative democracy is restored (I'm thinking of Lincoln, suspending habeous corpus, which probably kept Washington and the government from being captured).

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #736 on: January 24, 2010, 06:30:54 PM »
I too landed on the democracy issue. It is so vital a question to day when we think we can build democratic nations based on war, pestilence, tribal loyalties, and religious power. American military Chaplins have had to be reigned in from selling Christianity to Muslims. Elections are won and lost based upon corruption and squeeze.  Knowledge is limited and interest among the electorate is devoted to religious orientation.

In my judgment, democracy can not take hold unless the people want it and are willing to abide by it's rules and code. The Middle East is not fertile ground for a democratic government. But if it is planted and protected by military force the people may see some advantages in it and come to grasp its usefulness.

It worked to some extent in ancient Greece for the very reason you mention, Joan. The Greek unit was small enough to allow participation by all citizens. The Greek version was as large a version as it is possible to achieve. We, in the usa have a limited version. We have a representative democracy. The Greeks had a pure version.

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #737 on: January 24, 2010, 07:08:41 PM »
in her speech on c-span re: a free internet hillary clinton made referencr to our form of govt. several times as  OUR REPUBLIC.  not really a democracy at all.

claire
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #738 on: January 25, 2010, 12:20:57 AM »
The papacy and democracy are words that should not be used in the same sentence. The Papacy is a dictatorship with supreme powers granted by Jesus to Peter.

It was at the time of Nicholas V, the most powerful spiritual entity in the world and when it showed signs of becoming a secular power as well the dictatorship was extended to the Papal states. They covered central Italy, Neapolitan Italy, Sicily, Florence,and Tuscany. We are talking about a real powerhouse here not some trivial little back water community. The Holy Roman Empire, located in what is today germany, a little North of the Vatican was a rival who when combined with France kept the Vatican under control. Is it any wonder that all hell broke loose when Luther in the Holy Roman Empire broke the bonds that bound one and all to the vatican.   All the cities in the Vatican area paid tribute to the Church both as secular units and as Papal fiefs. Julius, who succeeded him, maintained an army of substantial magnitude to protect his borders and he rode at the head of it. He took the field. Rome may have been shot but politically, Nicholas and Julius were Popes at the highest level of achievement.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #739 on: January 25, 2010, 12:29:11 AM »
Claire: We are a democracy alright but not a pure one. There are too many of us for pure democracy to work. We instead elect representatives to speak for us. There is one representative for every four hundred thousand people. I think that's the number. They form the House of representatives and express our wishes for us. In Greece in the Fifth century all citizens gathered in the Agora and as many as eight or ten thousand citizens passed or rejected bills. Can you imagine supporting a bill vocally before eight or ten thousand wild ass ed citizens? Cicero did it and did it well.

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #740 on: January 25, 2010, 12:13:07 PM »
mass voting does take place in our house of reps and senate although not in the thousands, but I watch them both on c-span and most of the time there is a request for when people  vote  they can electronically sometimes it's done that way and other times it's THE CLERK WILL CALL THE ROLE  for a voice vote which meas that it is either aye or no one at a time and sometimes it is the whole membership all at once in the absense of n OBJECTION, something the GOP has done recently was to object, a delaying tactic.. by ONE MEMBER.   voting is akward even on this scale.

also I Think the electoral system well out of date and can be replaced digitally by single votes. I  really hated the democrats super electors system. Obama won partly because he lined those up from the start. . . chicago politics in action. I voted for Hillary, not a sore loser but I think she's more trustworthy as a liberal.  oursystems are still based on old technology and it is a very interesting change in that for all of us.  who does not yet have a CELL OPHONE?  I voted  bye mail the last few years and I contributed to the HAITI mess with my cell phone. wow. at eighty plus am very aware of how technology has changed our lives and amazed at the rapidity off it.
thimk

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #741 on: January 25, 2010, 03:32:35 PM »
The United States is a 'Republic'. The founders were appalled at the suggestion of a democracy and direct election. They had no intention of turning the government over to the whims of the ignorant rabble, who would vote in the first 'snake oil salesman' who came down the pike and caught their fancy.

It was a Republic, with no inclinations toward democracy. The House of Representatives was the only direct vote given the people, and the power dispersed so widely that any representation one had was minute. All Senators were appointed by the respective state legislators.

The election of presidents was through electors, not a direct vote, which is why one can win the direct vote and lose the election. The very opposite of a democracy. Even the Democratic party has now put those rules in its selection process by appointing unelected superdelegates who decide close elections, not the voters. The Democratic party should have to forfeit their name. I've been thinking about a new one for them, but off the top of my head, the 'Undemocratic party' sounds about right.

As an Independent who leans Democratic and has supported and worked for Democrats, many who lost, I don't mind losing, I do mind being cheated.

The Papacy is neither a Republic or Democracy. It is as Justin says a Theocracy and a dictatorship.

Emily

Quote
At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic if you can keep it" responded Franklin."

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2000/cr020200.htm




mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #742 on: January 25, 2010, 04:24:11 PM »
Well put Emily

The papacy and democracy are words that should not be used in the same sentence. The Papacy is a dictatorship with supreme powers granted by Jesus to Peter.

thanks for my giggle of the day Justin ................ but of course, except for that short period in Greece, no one had had a democracy of any sort in the period of written history.  The hunters and gatherers may have come as close as anybody to pure democracy.  Women were prized for the contributions they made to the tribe and had some say at times, and sometimes had control, of living situations of the tribe.............."progress" has not always been kind to women.............jean


Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #743 on: January 25, 2010, 07:38:19 PM »
And so -- during the time that Durant is discussing with us - and currently -- who has the power?

Robby

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #744 on: January 25, 2010, 09:48:52 PM »
And so -- during the time that Durant is discussing with us - and currently -- who has the power?

Robby



The same ones who have always had the power, the male side of the equation. All the top gods are male. The popes are male. Through out history all the leaders of tribes, villages, towns, cities, states, and countries have been male with so few exceptions that mentioning it is meaningless.

The role of women in the church is that of servant. I am reminded of Gloria von thurn un Taxis (spelling optional) having dinner with the new Pope and mentioning as an aside the dinner was prepared and served by the nuns who work at the Vatican. They are servants to the men who rule over and run the Vatican.

Durant said there were three groups of people in Rome during the time period we are discussing. The landowning families who owned all the land, the Church and at its head the Pope, and all the masses who lived in this feudal system without power or control.

So those with power were the Pope and the few landowning families. Everyone else was collateral fodder used to feed the landowners and church till.

Behind every great fortune, a crime.

Emily

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #745 on: January 25, 2010, 09:52:45 PM »
robby ==  who has the  power? unfortunately it is RICH WHITE MEN.
thimk

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #746 on: January 25, 2010, 11:10:33 PM »
Who has/had the power?  The ones with the MONEY - - - i.e. property (landed gentry),
tythes (church), taxes (government), personality (TV stars),  athletic ability (hockey, golf, football etc.), the smarts (bankers and financiers).

Remember ? - - - Money is the root of all evil   (The love of .... okay)

Brian.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #747 on: January 26, 2010, 06:56:33 AM »
Would we agree that we are talking prmarily about Europe?  Going back to Durant's first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage, were the leaders in China white men?  In India, weren't prayers made to goddesses?  Was Joan of Arc powerful?  Was Mahatma Ghandi powerful?  Was Prime Minister Thatcher powerful?  Do I understand correctly that in the Hebrew culture there is an important matriarchal power?  Or does the exception prove the rule?

Robby

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #748 on: January 26, 2010, 01:28:07 PM »
Obviously, men of all ethnicities have held power where they held the majority, but for women you are right, the exception proves the rule.

 Any one who has some knowledge of women's history knows the names of the English queens, Eleanor of Acquataine, Joan of Arc, Cleopatra, etc. but you CAN put them all in ONE book......thanks to femiinest studies of the last 50 yrs, a big book, yes, but the names w/ description could fit in one book. Not possible w/ the male history of even just western civ.

"The popes had coined their own money at least as far back as 782 and for centuries no one had questioned their right"

If you can coin your own money - you've got power. The wealthy, the church, the royalty of major empires had the power - for the moment!.....jean


winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #749 on: January 26, 2010, 02:30:43 PM »
Mable you clarified it or me but you also made me think of something strange. do you suppose there were black men and women in the various Asian countries then and how would  they have been treated if so.  Mobility an issue.  The world was much larger in those ancient times but now it could be an issue of racial tolerance or not. China has trading relations with Iranians but doesn't like them. . .a brief mention on the cable news.
thimk

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #750 on: January 26, 2010, 02:33:25 PM »
I keep bringing us back to the present beause I'm not a historian. I hope no one minds.  The present is all I pay attention to these days . . . especially with what is happening to my own Health Care/drug  coverage.no more generics.
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #751 on: January 27, 2010, 01:26:00 AM »
The major power brokers in the 15th century were male and the question is concerned with those among the males who were the major holders of power and where did the source for power lay. What gave the Holy Roman Emperor power and how different was his source of power from that of Nicholas V.? These are not ancient times. We are roughly fifty years short of the period of Henry Vlll and his multiple wives. Who had the power in Henry's day? Early on it was the Pope who forced Henry to arrange the death of his wives so he could have a new hot cookie in his bed.

In Italy it was the Orsinis, the Colonnas, and the Medici who had the power after Nicholas died. His successor a Franciscan monk was too pious and too religious to be powerful. When julius succeeded Eugenius the power returned to the Papacy. What is the source of power. My God! How can we ask that question? It is money. Nothing more. When Papal revenues were the only source of funds in Rome, Nicholas ruled. Eugenius gave it all away or allowed it to be taken away. The bankers had the money and the power. Spain and Phillip gained the upper hand by taking the riches of the continent and the Netherlands and by finding a western sea route to India. The buck is all powerful and it still is all powerful.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #752 on: January 27, 2010, 11:48:54 AM »
Quote
What is the source of power. My God! How can we ask that question? It is money. Nothing more.


Just as I said  in post #746.

Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #753 on: January 27, 2010, 02:15:00 PM »
Right, Brian. We're together on this one.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #754 on: January 27, 2010, 02:43:36 PM »
Does money lead to power, or does power lead to money? Sometimes one, sometimes the other.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #755 on: January 27, 2010, 11:14:38 PM »
True, Joan, they are multipliers enhancing one another as they go. .

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #756 on: January 28, 2010, 12:28:23 AM »
reciprocity   prevails
thimk

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #757 on: January 28, 2010, 10:22:59 AM »
Money may be the source of power in many cases, but I don't think it explains Mahatma Gandhi, Mohammad, Jesus, or Hitler for that matter. Their power from their gift of persuasion and appeal to emotions. The money came later.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #758 on: January 28, 2010, 11:54:16 AM »
Frybabe - - -  good point.   Persuasion = personality ?

Brian

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #759 on: January 29, 2010, 02:50:04 AM »
Good try Fryabee, but Hitler came to power during the depression and promised as well as delivered economic success for all Germans. He kept the power because he continued to deliver economic recovery when France and England had crushed the country with repatriation.

Jesus had no power. He was crushed by the Sadducees in the Sanhedrin who wanted to retain their source of money- animal sacrifice.

Mohammad, gained power by the sword and the riches he took from the people he conquered to fund his growing religion.

Ghandi, of course used poverty as a tool to chase the British out of India and to separate Hindus from Muslims through the creation of Pakistan. His movement was well funded but he  exhibited personal poverty as a weapon.