Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371883 times)

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #760 on: January 29, 2010, 03:20:29 AM »
In many cases, money comes after power has been seized. And power grows out of the muzzle of a gun. That, I suppose, is why criminals, and also those who have no criminal intent, have such a love affair with guns. ++ Trevor

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #761 on: January 29, 2010, 10:15:30 AM »
Quote
In many cases, money comes after power has been seized.

That was more or less my point. While the people I mentioned had no money intitally, many gained power by their persuasive abilities and attracted sponsors who subsidized their efforts. I will have to research Mohammad a little,  but as I recall he was chased out of number of places before he found a town that believed in him and rallied around him. Jesus is a special case because he did not live to enjoy his power and the riches the church founded in his name gained from it. 

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #762 on: January 29, 2010, 07:46:55 PM »
I concur with you guys, Fryabee and Trevor. The power is oft times in the hands of the guy with the gun and  money is oft times the motivator.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #763 on: January 30, 2010, 02:55:18 PM »
Sociologists look at those three things (money, power, and ideals(or ideas)) and argue about which is more basic to understanding history. It's like the chicken and the egg argument.

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #764 on: January 30, 2010, 03:13:05 PM »
POWER:  BEAUTIFUL WOMEN HAVE POWER UNTIL IT FADES, SO sex IS VERY POWERFUL OR HE IDEA OF IT. HMMM

CLAIRE
thimk

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #765 on: January 31, 2010, 09:35:28 AM »
NICHOLAS V
1447-55

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #766 on: January 31, 2010, 09:47:48 AM »
Raised in poverty at Sarzana, Tommaso Parentucelli somehow found means to attend the University of Bologna for six years.

 When his funds ran out he went to Florence and served as tutor in the homes of Rinaldo degli Albizzi and Palla de’Strozzi.  His purse replenished, he returned to Bologna, continued his studies and received at twenty-two the doctorate in theology.  Niccolo degli Albergati, Archbishop of Bologna, made him controller of the archepiscopal household and took him to Florence to attend Eugenius IV in the Pope’s long exile there.

 In these Florentine years the priest became a humanist without ceasing to be a Christian.  He developed a warm friendship with Bruni, Marsuppini, Manetti, Autispa, and Poggio, and joined their literary gatherings.  Soon Thomas of Sarzana, as the humanists called him, was aflame with their passion for classical antiquity.  He spent almost all his income on books, borrowed money to buy costly manuscripts and expressed the hope that some day his funds would suffice to gather into one library all the great books in the world.  In that ambition the Vatican Library had its origin.  Cosimo engaged him to catalogue the Marcian Library and Tommaso was happy among the manuscripts.

 He could hardly know that he was preparing himself to be the first Renaissance pope.


A humanist AND a Christian?  Who was it who said: "It's not what you know, it's who you know.

Robby

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #767 on: January 31, 2010, 03:13:14 PM »
I had highlighted that statement of "humanist and Christian" also. I recognize that in history/philosophy "the Humanists" put emphasis on humanity and not God or religion, but i've always pondered on why any Christian is not also a humanist w/ the caveat that they also believe in God and Christ. I see those two as totally compatible  - at least from my 20 some yrs of Christian education about the teachings of Christ.

In fact, what has turned me off from organized religion is that many "Christians" thruout history seem to have separated the two and, in fact, many have denounced humanists as almost satanic...........more of the current demonization and extremism. It's nice to see that a head of the Church at this point could reconcile the two...................jean

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #768 on: January 31, 2010, 08:10:20 PM »
I think in the case of Nicholas it was not only who he knew but also what he knew that brought him to the Papal throne. I assure you, not every Pope comes with a doctorate in theology. He did that at twenty two. At twenty two I was counting my points for discharge. The guy was sharp and able to cope in spite of early poverty.

We owe him for the Vatican Library which I had the pleasure of using a number of years ago. The ancient European libraries do things in a nice way. They treat scholars very well. They wait on one hand and foot and do research in the bargain. If you tell them your objectives they will partner with you to solve research problems. One can make appointments, receive facilities, including well equipped desk space, copiers, pc's, and an attendant librarian who looks after your interest. The library of Congress leaves a lot to be desired in this regard.


Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #769 on: February 01, 2010, 07:40:59 AM »
I agree with you, Justin.  But his friendship with the Archbishop of Bologna and the other folks mentioned there didn't hurt him a bit.

I was counting points at age 25.

Robby

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #770 on: February 01, 2010, 01:41:34 PM »
you guys want to explain "counting points?" .............jean

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #771 on: February 01, 2010, 06:44:42 PM »
Sorry, Jean. When the war ended, service people became eligible for discharge based on time in service and time in combat. Robby may remember more the details of the formula. The game was called "counting points".

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #772 on: February 01, 2010, 06:50:58 PM »
I agree, Robby. Both elements contributed to making this guy Pope. The fact that he was Italian didn't hurt either.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #773 on: February 01, 2010, 07:18:31 PM »
Thanks for the explanation, i never heard of that before.......still learning something new everyday ...........hoooray!..........jean

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #774 on: February 01, 2010, 09:40:06 PM »
This may not be accurate but it gives you an idea.   This was an answser that one woman wrote in the internet.   I don't believe Homer or Caesar used this method.



I beleive the army points system was as follows: 1 point for each month in the service.

1 point for each month overseas.

5 points if you received the bronze.

5 points for any additional medal

5 points for the purple heart.

12 points for each child under 18.

Once you had 85 points yoou were entitled for furlough stateside.



Robby

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #775 on: February 02, 2010, 01:13:37 AM »
The Navy-Marine corps were different. Are they not, always different. ? Twenty-five points and you were eligible for discharge. The allotted points were lower than the army's. I remember counting 28 and saying "I'm outta here". We were between Ulithi and the China Coast. So swim. 

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #776 on: February 02, 2010, 11:40:41 AM »
It often astounds me what people thruout history were doing at ages 15 or 20 or 25. I tried to motivate my students by pointing out those people and their ages. I'll try to find the list of the ages of the founding fathers that i handed out, so i can tell you accurately, but many were under 35 including Jefferson who was in his 30's when he wrote the Dec of Ind. (my files are mostly packed away since i haven't taught for the last 5 yrs.) .............jean

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #777 on: February 02, 2010, 11:59:54 AM »

These are the birth dates of a couple of the founders, so you can surmise their age at the time of the Revolution, or the writing of the constitution.
Hamilton - 1755 or 57 - 19 when aide to Geo Washington

Jefferson 1743 - 33 when wrote the D of I

Madison - 1751 - Father of the Constitution, especially the Bill of Rts

Gouverneur Morris 1751 - basically funded the Revolution


Ages in 1776 of the whole list
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_average_age_of_the_founding_fathers

Ages in 1787 at the constitution convention
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/convention/delegates/age.html

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #778 on: February 02, 2010, 02:55:01 PM »
That's amazing! How old were some of the Popes we're studying, does anyone know?

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #779 on: February 02, 2010, 03:31:17 PM »
JoanK - - - there are some fascinating facts available here  : -

http://papam.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/the-minimum-age-to-be-a-pope/

The youngest cardinal at present is Hungary’s Peter Erdo — who was born on June 25,
1952 (57 years).

The next youngest, at 59, is the French Philippe Xavier Barbarin — #6 on my 2009
papabili list.

The youngest pope elected since 1400 was Leo X (the 13 year old cardinal), at the age of
37, in 1513.

The second youngest, since 1400, happens to be Leo X’s cousin Clement VII, one pope
later, at the age of 45. [So there is a 8 year difference between the youngest and the
second youngest.]

There have been four other popes, since 1400, who were elected prior to turning 50.


Brian

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #780 on: February 03, 2010, 08:44:19 PM »
For twenty years Parentucelli served Albergati in Florence and Bologna.

 When the Archbishop died Eugenius appointed Parentucelli to succeed him.  Three years later the Pope, impressed by his learning, his piety, and his administrative ability, made him a cardinal.  Another year passed, Eugenius passed away and the cardinals, deadlocked between the Orsini and Colonna factions, raised Parentucelli to the papacy.  He exclaimed to Vespasiano da Bisticci “Who would have thought that a poor bell ringer of a priest would be made pope, to the confusion of the proud?”

 The humanists of Italy rejoiced and one of them, Francesco Barbaro, proclaimed that Plato’s vision had come true.  A  philosopher had become king.

Nicholas V, as he now called himself, had three aims:  to be a good pope, to rebuild Rome, and to restore classical literature, learning, and art.  He conducted his high office with modesty and competence, gave audiences at almost any hour of the day and managed to get along amicably with both Germany and France.  The Aantipope Felix V, realizing that Nicholas would soon win all Latin Christendom to his allegiance, resigned his pretensions and was gracefully forgiven.

 The rebellious but disintegrating Council of Basel moved to Lausanne and dissolved.  The conciliar movement was ended, the Papal Schism was healed.  Demands for reform of the Church still came from beyond the Alps.  Nicholas felt incapable of achieving that reform in the face of all the office holders who would lose by it.  Instead he hoped that the Church would regain, as the leader in the revival of learning, the prestige that she had lost at Avignon and in the Schism.  Not that his support of scholarship was motivated by political ends.  It was a sincere, almost an amorous passion.  He had made arduous trips over the Alps in search of manuscripts.

 It was he who had unearthed at Basel the works of Tertullian.


He is too good.  Something is going to happen to him.

Robby

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #781 on: February 04, 2010, 12:15:16 AM »

He is too good.  Something is going to happen to him.

A bit of cynicism from our wise elder?!?

Parentucelli served Albergati - i tho't of how musical that would sound w/ an Italian accent.

What years are we talking about now?

So glad to get to a church leader who sounds rational, intelligent, kind, competent and loves learning. Gives me hope, like our President and Secretary of State gives me hope for politicians. Actually we've had a string of good Secretaries of State, maybe that will happen here w/ popes? ................jean

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #782 on: February 04, 2010, 12:17:27 AM »

"He is too good.  Something is going to happen to him."

A bit of cynicism from our wise elder?!?

"Parentucelli served Albergati" - i tho't of how musical that would sound w/ an Italian accent.

What years are we talking about now?

So glad to get to a church leader who sounds rational, intelligent, kind, competent and loves learning. Gives me hope, like our President and Secretary of State gives me hope for politicians. Actually we've had a string of good Secretaries of State, maybe that will happen here w/ popes? ................

(for some reason, no color is showing up on my replies - as in when i highlight quotes) ......................jean

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #783 on: February 04, 2010, 01:35:03 AM »
The years are 1447 to 1455. Nicholas had it all and gave it well. The Turks took the heart out of him and Venice and the nobles of Europe  left him disappointed. While polls were non-existent it's safe to say the people of Rome were unappreciative of his great skills and results-(peasants, every last one of them.)  His legacy is probably unmatched by any subsequent Papacy.

We could have used a Nicholas V instead of a Benedict these last few years when some reconciliation was possible with the Jews over the Holocaust. John started it, the Polish Pope nudged it along and when Benedict had the ball he not only dropped it, he threw it away.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #784 on: February 04, 2010, 01:22:31 PM »
I must tell my grandson Nickolas about this pope. Is this the man who became St Nicholas?

Yes, i think the world needs such a religious leader today. Altho i am not particularly religious, i know that many people will listen more carefully to a person of religion and therefore their influence is importatn.

(I see one quote did take the color......... :-[)

Jean


Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #785 on: February 07, 2010, 08:49:39 AM »
Anything further about Parentucelli?

Robby

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #786 on: February 08, 2010, 01:07:36 AM »
I think we are done with Nicky. He was great. He just did not last long enough or do the right things to become a saint. He killed only one man and that was because the man was a repeat offender. Popes like Pius X11 become saints. Pious let Hitler do his thing.  John XX111 should have been nominated for sainthood, but like Nicky he did all the wrong things. He removed some of the blood hate from the religion.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #787 on: February 10, 2010, 06:44:38 PM »
Let us not leave Nicholas V just yet. No matter his accomplishments, he is forever damned by his legacy of putting the capture of Africans from the coast of Africa and sending them to the Americas as slaves. By giving his blessing to Portugal and Spain (by a later Pope) to carry out this venture he doomed himself forever in the sainthood race.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about Nicholas V and slavery.

Quote
Pope Nicholas V and slavery


Nicholas issued the bull "Dum Diversas" (June 18, 1452) in response to a request from the Portuguese monarchy. King Alfonso V was conferred the right to "attack, conquer, and subjugate Saracens, Pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found." It gave title over all lands and possessions seized and permitted the Portuguese to take the inhabitants and consign them to perpetual slavery. The geographical area of the concession given in the bull is not explicit but Richard Raiswell argues that the use of the terms "pagans" and "other enemies of Christ" indicates the scope of the bull was applicable to the newly discovered lands along the west coast of Africa and that the ambiguity of the text was such that it encouraged the Portuguese to extend their explorations further afield. He further argues that the use of crusading language in the bull served to make the Christian-Muslim relationship the model for Africa.[1]

The ownership of the Canary Islands continued to be a source of dispute between Spain and Portugal and Nicholas was asked to settle the matter, ultimately in favor of the Portuguese.[2] The bull issued by Nicholas "Romanus Pontifex" (8 January 1455) reaffirmed "Dum Diveras" and also sanctioned the purchase of black slaves from "the infidel".[3] According to Raiswell (1997) he expressed enthusiasm when recalling the number of slaves that had been captured, brought back to Portugal, baptised and expressed his hope that the entire populations of these new found lands would be converted. Stogre (1992) notes that this bull, perhaps in part due to misleading information provided by the Portuguese, introduced the concept of military force, rather than peaceful evangelisation, for missionary purposes and that it applied to lands that had never previously been subject to Christian ownership, subsequently leading to the "brutal dispossession and enslavement of the indigenous population".[4] The bull also conferred exclusive trading rights to the Portuguese between Morocco and the Indies with the rights to conquer and convert the inhabitants.[5] A significant concession given by Nicholas in a brief issued to King Alfonso in 1454 extended the rights granted to existing territories to all those that might be taken in the future.[6]

It is argued that collectively the two bulls issued by Nicholas gave the Portuguese the rights to acquire slaves along the African coast by force or trade. The concessions given in them were confirmed by bulls issued by Pope Calixtus III "Inter Caetera quae" (1456), Sixtus IV "Aeterni regis" (1481) and Leo X (1514) and they became the models for subsequent bulls issued by Pope Alexander VI : "Eximiae devotionis" (May 3 1493), "Inter Caetera" (May 4 1493) and "Dudum Siquidem (September 23 1493) when he conferred similar rights to Spain relating to the newly discovered lands in the Americas.[7]

Emily


Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #788 on: February 10, 2010, 08:57:37 PM »
Emily; The history of the Church on the question of slavery is an abominable one and Nicholas V is not to be given a free pass simply because he did some worthwhile things as well. He and Calixtus and Leo and others gave Portugal and Spain license not only to enslave non-Catholics for purposes of conversion but to do it with force if needed. I have little doubt that Columbus saw the natives of the Americas as Christian prospects and there fore as slaves. That attitude persisted throughout the period of exploration.

 It was implemented here in my state of California by the good  Father Sera who found the pagans of this land compliant. Mission Churches were built in a chain along the length of California and these are available for tourists to visit. Carvings in altar pieces and other church decoration show the good Fathers coaxing the pagans along with whips and other implements. Funny, they would allow that to be shown but education at that time was by pictures and the whip. I am amazed at the number of tourists who pass through these places and never attempt to read the imagery or to understand it if they do read it. The good Father Sera wouldn't do that. Today we build monuments to this guy who carried out the religious policies of Phillip ll in Californio. 

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #789 on: February 11, 2010, 09:23:06 PM »
San Juan Capistrano mission, a tourist trap is known for it's swallows which come and go from and to Argentina. I lived in the city for almost twenty years and went to the mission for it's beauty where many artista sat around drawing and painting. I was amused by the tourists who pointed to pigeons calling out to each other. "look at the swallows"  which had deserted the mission to go build their mud nests under the eaves of  the taller buildings inland at business parks and universities.

Claire
thimk

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #790 on: February 12, 2010, 07:56:33 AM »
Durant continues.

Dowered with the revenues of the papacy Nicholas V sent agents to Athens, Constantinople, and divers cities in Germany and England to seek and buy or copy Greek or Latin manuscripts, pagan or Christian.

 He installed a large corps of copyists and editors in the Vatican.  He called almost every prominent humanist in Italy to Rome.  Wrote Vespasiano in fond exaggeration: “All the scholars in the world came to Rome in the time of Pope Nicholas, partly of their own accord, partly at his request.”

 He rewarded their work with the liberality of a caliph thrilled by music or poetry.  The subdued Lorenzo Valla received 500 ducats ($12,500?)  for  putting Thucydides into Latin dress.  Guarano da Verona received 1500 ducats for translating Strabo.  Nicolo Perotti 500  for Polybius.  Poggio was put to translating Diodorus Siculus.  Theodorus Gaza was lured from Ferrara to make a new translation of Aristotle.  Filelfo was offered a house in Rome, an estate in the country and 10,000 ducats to render into Latin the Iliad and the Odyssey.

 The Pope’s death, however prevented the execution of this Homeric enterprise.  These rewards were so great that some scholars  -- mirabile dictu – hesitated to accept them.  The Pope overcame their scruples by playfully warning them: “Don’t refuse.  You may not find another Nicholas.”

 When an epidemic drove him from Rome to Fabriano he took his translators and copyists with him, lest any of them should succumb to the plague.  Meanwhile he did not neglect what might be called the Christian classics.  He offered five thousand ducats to anyone who would  bring him the Gospel of St. Matthew in the original tongue.  He engaged Giamozzo Manetti and George of Trebizond to translate Cyaril, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Gregory of Nyssa, and other patrological literature.

 He commissioned Maneri and aides to make a new version of the Bible from the original Hebrew and Greek.  This, too, was frustrated by his death.  These Latin translations were hurried and imperfect but they for the first time opened Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophen, Polybius, Diodorus, Appian, Philom, and Theophrastus to students who could not read Greek.  Referring to these translators, Filelfo wrote: “Greece has not perished, but has migrated to Italy – which, in former days was called Greater Greece.”

 Manetti, with greater gratitude than accuracy, calculated that more Greek authors were translated during the eight years of Nicholas’ pontificate than iu all the preceding five centuries.


We might not be reading all this if it were not for Nicholas.  And many thanks to people who are multi-kingual.

Robby

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #791 on: February 12, 2010, 01:02:27 PM »
Beginning to sound like GOOGLE.

Brian.

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #792 on: February 12, 2010, 02:21:12 PM »
Quote
Beginning to sound like GOOGLE.

Brian  that's not all that funny.  an article in  Salon I think titled GOOGLE OWNS THE WORLD  and who owns google. . . I'd be lost without this ready access to whatever and when ever.

claire
thimk

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #793 on: February 12, 2010, 03:02:24 PM »
Speaking of San Juan Capistrano mission, it is famous -- I've heard of it all my life. But we were in the town a few months ago for another purpose, and I asked the waitress how far it was to the mission. The waitpeople had never heard of it. We went back without seeing it.

The swallows are cliff swallows. I had heard somewhere that they no longer return to it. Is that true? It ounds worth visiting even without swallows.

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #794 on: February 12, 2010, 03:24:46 PM »
san juan capistrano is really a beautiful site with it's gardens etc. and it's worth it if you like pigeions and perhaps doves.

I think it has a free day for seniors. . .maybae tuesday?
thimk

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #795 on: February 12, 2010, 04:20:37 PM »
he expressed enthusiasm when recalling the number of slaves that had been captured, brought back to Portugal, baptised and expressed his hope that the entire populations of these new found lands would be converted.

I am always in a quandry when trying to figure out how i should judge people in history as they behave according to the values of the day. I tend to be harsh w/ religious persons who seem to have laid aside the idea that all human beings are "God's Children" and apply the "you have to take Jesus as your saviour to be a valuable, o.k., person. I had a hard time talking w/ my students about our Founding FAthers who were slave holders. I would tell them we can't judge them by today's standards, but i wasn't sure if that was true.  I'm in the same quandry about Nicholas...........he seems to have done a lot of good.............jean

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #796 on: February 12, 2010, 08:20:19 PM »
I don't blame you. Jean. It's easy to have mixed feelings about some of these folks. Certainly, Nicholas V is such a person. What he did for literature was really valuable for the literary world. We would have it today anyway for Latin and Greek are not limiting languages for us but the early availability produced scholars who would not have contributed as much without those works in Greek.

Of course, Nicholas may have been doing something selfish as well as altruistic. That may not nullify what he did but it does temper our understanding of his motives. The slavery issue is something else. He wanted converts and he did not really care how he got them. He was out to save souls. Never mind there is no such thing as a soul unless one is talking about modern music. Benedict is facing the same problem today. His method is to oppose abortion, prohibit contraception, and to discourage unproductive homosexual relationships.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #797 on: February 12, 2010, 08:38:30 PM »
Since slavery has been around forever and practiced by probably every ethnic group, does it matter whose ox is gored?

Around the time of Nicholas V and his broadside against the Africans, another group of Muslim Africans were enslaving Christian Europeans. Anyone living around the Mediterrian or sailing on it or off the shores of Africa and even as far away as England were subject to becoming slaves. Even President Thomas Jefferson had to deal with the Barbary pirates who took American sailors as slaves.

The middle east was always a hot bed of slavery. Saudi Arabia did not outlaw slavery until the mid 1960's. They had marched slaves out of Africa since before recorded time. They also kept Europeans as slaves. A photo of an Arabian merchant with his white slave was done around the 1900's and appeared in a book by Robert Lacey. He also had photos of many African slaves in Saudi Arabia in the 20th century.

This study done by a professor at Ohio State University and turned into a book may give some insight into the slavery of Christian Europeans by Muslim Africans near the time period we are now discussing.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm

Emily

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #798 on: February 12, 2010, 09:37:26 PM »
we shouldn't judge ancients by our modern standards but i can't help it.  Which is probably why I don't like history very much.  I find the present more engaging in that my modern standards make sense.  Even though it is still very frustrating to watch the world and it's leaders operate.

claire
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #799 on: February 13, 2010, 01:51:41 AM »
Well taken, Emily. Life in the Med was precarious. I'm not absolutely sure but  Nicholas V did not have a commercial profit motive, at  least, I don't think he did. That's a saving grace for Nicholas.  He was little different than other rulers of his time. Slavery was an ok thing. We westerners frown on it today but it is still practiced even in the US.