Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371806 times)

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #400 on: November 02, 2009, 05:50:31 PM »

"I want to know what were the steps by which
man passed from barbarism to civilization (Voltaire)"

   



What are our origins?
Where are we now?
Where are we headed?
Share your thoughts with us!
   Volume Five (The Renaissance)
       
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "
 
"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "
       
"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."
       
"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."



SAVONAROLA AND THE REPUBLIC

The Prophet
The Statesman
Literature: The Martyr
Architecture and Sculpture: The Republic and the Medici
Art Under the Revolution

In this volume the  term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples. 

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.


This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Discussion Leader: robby




Ambrogio Calepini gave his name to the early English dictionaries (Calepins). and
predated by a couple of hundred years the later lexicographers extolled here by the
Oxford Dictionary -

http://www.askoxford.com/worldofwords/oed/legendarylexicographers/?view=uk

Wikipedia has a fine picture of a bust of this learned Augustinian monk 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrogio_Calepino



so who is reading to us here, those who don't have the books. robby? brian?

ready, set, goooooo.  
thimk

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #401 on: November 02, 2009, 08:30:15 PM »
I am beginning to see some names here that I haven't seen for quite a while.  This is great!!  I hope you all hang around and in a day or so I will orient us all as to where we are in the book and we can get back to old times.

In the meantime, contact everyone you know to get lots of folks here - old timers and new people.

Robby

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #402 on: November 02, 2009, 08:39:52 PM »
An excerpt from 'Food timeline history' on Renaissance foods and presentation.

COMMON FOODS
These foods were commonly prepared in Renaissance Italy
Bread, hard biscuits, wine, rice (rissoto), pasta: lasagne, ravioli & pizza WITHOUT TOMATO SAUCE, cheese: mozzarella (from buffalo milk), Pecorino, omelettes, meatballs, pork, small birds & game, and sausages. Fresh fruits and vegetables were eaten in season; dried items consumed in other seasons. Soups and stews were eaten by rich and poor alike. Fish was also popular, especially in Lent. It was served fresh, dried, and salted. Cheesecake and flan were often served for dessert. Olive oil was used for flavor and as a cooking medium.

Genoa's foods at the time of Columbus (slightly earlier period, but useful information).

WHAT FOODS WERE SERVED AT BANQUETS
"To illustrate the pomp and cicumstance of the banquet tradition, let us turn to the Renaissance Chronicler Bernadino Corio (1459-1519?), who in his Historia di Milano described in great detail a fabulous feast hed in Rome in 1473..."The banquet... took place in a great hall ...where there was a sideboard with twelve shelves on which the gem-studded trays so silver and gold were featured. Two tables covered by four tablecloths were prepared in the middle of the hall: the first was for the seven nobles of the highest station while the other table was for the lesser among them. In accordance with the custom in uage since the beginning of the century, the guests were still standing when they were served a meal that included trays of candied fruit covered with gold leaves and accompanied by painted glasses of malvasia. Once the guests were seated, musicians with horns and pipes announced the next dishes, which were divided into four serves in correspondence with the four tablecloths that covered the tables. The first service combined pork livers, blancmange, meats with relish, tortes and pies, salt-cured pork loin and sausage, roast veal, kid, squab, chicken, rabbit...whole roasted large game, and fowl dressed in their skin or feathers. Next came golden tortes and muscat pears in cups."...And this was just the first service!...list of foods brought forth in the remaining there services (at the end of each the tablecloth would be removed, and the guests washed their hands because they served themselves from comunal trays and forks were not in use): fried dough shaped like pine cones, smothered with honey and rose water, silver-wrapped lemons in sugary syrup; relishes; lies; sturgeon and lamprey; aspics, more tortes; junket drowning in white wine; Catalan-style chicken; green blancmange; stewed veal; mutton and roebuck; suckling pig; capon; and duck and black and sour cherries mascreated in Tyrian wine. And dulcis in fundo: ices, almonds, coriander seeds, anise seeds, cinnamon, and pine nuts..."
---The Art of Cooking: The First Modern Cookery Book, Martino of Como, edited and with an introduction by Luigi Ballerni, translated and annotated by jeremy Parzen [University of California Press:Berkeley CA] 2005 (p. 4-5)

"Banquet thrown January 23, 1529 by the son of the Duke of Ferrara for his father and various dignitaries. The total guest list numbered 104. Sugar suclptures of the labors of Hercules appeared first, in deference to the host himself, named "Hercole." The antipasto course consisted of cold dishes: a caper, truffle and raisin salad in pastry, another salad of greens with citron juice and anchovy salads. There were also radishes carved into shapes and animals, little cream pies, prosciutto of pork tongue, boar pies, mortadella and liver pies, smoked mullet served several different ways, and gilt-head bream. The first hot course had capon fritters sprinkled with sugar, quails, tomaselle (liver sausage), capon liver stuffed into a caul (netting of pork fat) and roasted pheasants, an onion dish, pigeons in puff pastry, tarts of fish ilt (spleen), fried trout tails and barbel (a fish), quails, meatballs, white servelat sausage, veal, capon German style in sweeet wine, pigeon pastries, carp, turbot, shrimp, trout roe pies, a yellow almond concoction, and pastires. The third course had partridge, rabbit, turtledoves, sausages, boned capon, pigeons and more fish. This goes on to a fourth course, again with birds, fish, a rice pie, and other dishes. A fifth course with some suckling pig, veal and more birds and fish as well. A sixth course with more veal prepared a different way, peacock, goat, boar and also more fish. The seventh course finally sees some vegetables, fennel, olives, grapes, pears, and other pastries; the ninth citron, lettuce, cucumbers and almonds in syrup, various fruits and confections...What is immediately striking is that guests were given individual plates for many of the dishes, only larger foods or presentations of several ingredients together came out in multiples of 25 or 50, and would have been divided up and served. Many of the foods came out in multiples of 104 on 25 larger plates as well. Because Messisbugo specified the number of plates needed for each food in each course, they can be counted. This meal used 2,835 plates."
---Food in Early Modern Europe, Ken Albala [Greenwood Press:Westport CT] 2002 (p. 124-5)
[NOTE: This book is an excellent source for common foods and regional variations. See: Italy (p. 111-140). Your librarian can help you find a copy.]

Emily





winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #403 on: November 02, 2009, 11:08:25 PM »
the veal is the only beef that I noticed, although maybe the meat balls were beef, but is that because of the young calves meat being tender?  Lots of sugar and glazing pork and birds and of course versions of pasta. I found that menu to be very interesting as to basics.

claire
thimk

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #404 on: November 02, 2009, 11:42:18 PM »
Brian does not have a copy of the book, and failed in his attempt to get the publisher to allow it to be read on the net.

As I said before, Robbie is the hub, and we are happy to depend on him for guidance in what we are to comment on.

And as we know, Robbie has responsibilities to many and has  an extremely full schedule.

If there could be any other way to lighten Robbie's load, and prevent the necessity for his having to laboriously type each segment that we read, I would love to see it put into action.

Brian.

ANNIE

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #405 on: November 03, 2009, 09:19:40 AM »
Has anyone ever looked for it online, Brian??
Here's a free download offering on the net:

http://www.alivetorrents.com/search/The%20Story%20of%20Civilization%20%20%20Will%20Durant%20Unabridged
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #406 on: November 03, 2009, 11:32:49 AM »
Several participates here looked for SOC online, I know that I did. I found a CD-ROM for sale on the internet, but it was expensive and that was old technology, so no agreement on that idea. We went to the Books Online site and SOC was not offered. There was nothing from the Durant Foundation about releasing the books for free downloading.

All our efforts were because Robby had fallen and injured his shoulder, as I remember. Some participates did assist in typing from Durant's story, Mal would fill in when Robby was away. After Mal died, others filled in for a while, until Robby got better. We had a short hiatus, but continued to keep the site going until Seniornet axed the discussions.

I checked out the website above. There were only two books in the first list. SOC and Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol. The rest were movies, games, television, and something called Anime. Sixty minutes did a story on movies being copied in theaters and put on the internet last Sunday. It is illegal. I see "In Glorious Bastards" on that list. It is a recent movie and those who put it on the internet are breaking the law. Television shows like HBO are not free, and it is doubtful they gave permission to put its shows on the internet for nothing.

The library in Nashville now offers e-book downloading to the computer, just like checking out the book. I think these are new releases though. I no longer live there so I don't have access. My small local library does not have that service yet, but I'm sure they will in the future.


I went looking for other books on the files of this site. I found the following listed under books.

Quote
Books torrents
Date
Title
Size
Seeds
Leechs
.03-Nov
McGraw-Hill Hacking Exposed Computer Forensics 2nd Edition (2009)8.59 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Names of Allah (Harun Yahya)1.33 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Getting the hang of oral stimulation2.24 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Guide to female orgasm - beginner's advice2.48 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Guide to finding secluded spots in malls5.98 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Hand picked by porn pros - sex advice4.02 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Handbook for better sex performance1.84 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Wiley Ipod Touch for Dummies 200910.12 MB
1
0
.03-Nov
Bypassing JavaScript Filters - the Flash way [SCOFIL]259.98 KB
1
0
.03-Nov
Encyclipedia of Trignometry - Andrew Barnes Complete E-Book [SCOFIL]15.37 MB
1

Emily

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #407 on: November 03, 2009, 11:50:45 AM »
ADOANNIE - - - I did contact the Will Durant organization at the time and had no joy.  I'm a bit wary of using the torrent system because of the question of legality and the risk of getting a virus or a trojan.  I will wait to see what other advice comes in.  I can't believe that they can put the whole SOC unabridged onto 2 Gigabytes!

Emily - - - interesting possible choices you have found.

I think I will stay on the sidelines for a bit until I get some solid advice.

Brian.

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #408 on: November 03, 2009, 12:08:47 PM »
This is a way to make SOC available on Kindle since Robby owns a copy.

https://www.createspace.com/AboutUs.jsp;jsessionid=08647F94D56673F85B23FCAE86C7F68E.mwworker01

that is if this link works.  I also signed a request for it to appear on kindle. all eleven volummes are available for eighty dollars but it does not offer them singly.

Maybe we should start a kindle club since so much in the way of this subject is available now in particular the history of ROME.

it beats typing it out anyway.

claire
thimk

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #409 on: November 03, 2009, 12:15:05 PM »
"bout CreateSpace
CreateSpace is a DBA of On-Demand Publishing LLC, a subsidiary of Amazon.com Inc. We were originally founded as CustomFlix Labs, Inc. in 2002. Back then, our focus was on producing and distributing affordable, on-demand DVDs. Our work caught the attention of Amazon.com, and three years later we proudly became a wholly owned and operated subsidiary.

CreateSpace provides inventory-free, physical distribution of books, CD and DVDs on Demand, as well as video downloads through Amazon Video On Demand™. We manufacture physical products when customers order so no pre-built inventory is needed. Through our service, you can sell DVDs, CDs, and books, for a fraction of the cost of traditional manufacturing, while maintaining more control over your materials.

With our services, you can make your books, music and video available to millions of customers by selling on Amazon.com and on your own website with a customized eStore."


I thought this was interesting and since it is part of amazon it is safe.
thimk

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #410 on: November 03, 2009, 02:52:17 PM »
WOW! Thank you for the food, Emily: that was incredible. Now I see why they were able to drink so much wine. I'll have to think how those menus fit into my new food theory of history.

But I prefer the feast that Brian provided.

I have no solution to the typing problem. I don't own the book, but could get it. Perhaps several of us could take turns typing it in.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #411 on: November 03, 2009, 04:50:06 PM »
Thanks, Adoannie for helping in trying to find a solution to typing from the book.

Thanks to Claire for her suggestion of the kindle. I do not own one. I have some of the books of SOC, but not all. I have used my local library for those I don't have. They have two complete sets, plus extra books that have been donated by locals.

Brian, you were a leader in our effort to find SOC online. We were not successful at that time.

Joan, that was some feast huh....What about all those plates... I would not have wanted to be the dishwasher on duty. Thanks for volunteering to help.

Emily

ANNIE

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #412 on: November 03, 2009, 05:20:41 PM »
I felt the same way, Brian, and will look around a little bit more.  There were others offered  when I "googled".
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #413 on: November 03, 2009, 08:04:21 PM »
I don't mind the typing.  I have been doing it for eight years.  What I need - more than anything else -- is a large group of participants who post regularly and help to make this discussion LIVE!  The more I feel the spirit from all of you, the easier it is for me.  It is you folks that kept me going all that time.

Robby

ANNIE

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #414 on: November 04, 2009, 07:16:45 AM »
Well, we have our orders from headquarters.  You have many posters in here who are way ahead of us "fail to appear" folks, but since I started reading these last few posts, I find myself wanting to appear here more often.  I will try but most of my time will be spent getting caught up.  That's only for the present history being discussed here.  I am not returning to read the whole series that I have missed.

The party looked like such fun but I didn't know who to come as since I haven't been in here for ages.  Is that recipe for the apples and cider and sunflowers seeds looks good but does one slice the apples first, then soak?  I can't imagine doing it any other way.  In fact, I can't imagine doing it without ending up with floppy apple slices. :D

By the way, Brian, your well constructed ad is great.  Did you leave it anyplace in Seniors&Friends??  Like in the religious folder or the chat cafe??
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #415 on: November 04, 2009, 10:09:41 AM »
This is my first time at this site.  I am interested, after reading the posts.  But, I am confused about what book we are discussion.  Will someone please guide me how to begin?

Thank you!
Sheila

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #416 on: November 04, 2009, 12:08:04 PM »
Welcome Shelia. We are discussing the fifth book in Durant's Story of Civilization, titled the 'Renaissance'.

It is set mostly in Italy and celebrates Europe's rise out of the dark ages, with books, painting, architecture, etc. A lot was lost during those dark years of war and pestilence. The genius of Leonardo da Vinci and Michaelangelo graced this period.

We have an art historian in Justin, who helps us see the great leaps made in art during the Renaissance. Claire also contributed much to the art discussion.

My interest lies in the books that were gathered and copied, especially of the Greeks, and reintroduced back into Europe. Much was lost, but some was saved even after a thousand years of war and darkness.

Emily

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #417 on: November 04, 2009, 12:23:02 PM »
Welcome Sheila - - - please come and join us in posting.  Emily has summed it up well.
I have been learning much through this discussion - - - both from the posts and also from
the subsequent "research" I have been impelled to do.

ADOANNIE - - - No, I did not post the invitation (crafted by Justin) in Seniors and Friends,
but on your suggestion, I will, thanks for the heads-up.

Brian.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #418 on: November 04, 2009, 03:04:17 PM »
SHEILA, ANNIE: you don't have to get any books or "get caught up". Robby posts exerpts from Will and Ariel Durant's "Story of Civilization" for us (for which we are eternally grateful) and we comment. Some participants know enough to add to what the book said, others (like me) are learning. Either way, we have fun and learn a lot.

Robby

  • Posts: 245
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #419 on: November 04, 2009, 05:24:38 PM »
OK, folks.  Let's get back to examining the Renaissance.  We are now on Page 367 of the Fifth Volume of The Story of Civilization.  We are beginning the section entitled "The Triumph of the Papacy - 1418-47  For those of you who are newcomers, be patient.  Just lurk a bit to catch the trend of our discussion and feel free to jump in whenever you want.  No one here is an expert in everything.  We all have opinions no matter where we are in knowledge.  We are interested in your views.

"Martin V, though himself a Roman, could not go at once to Rome.  The roads were held by the condottiere Braccio da Montone.  Martin thought it safer to say in Geneva, then Mantua, then Florence.   When at last he reached Rome (1420), he was shocked by the condition of the city, by the delapidation of the buildings and the people.

"The capital of Christendom was one of the least civilzied cities in Europe.

If Martin continued a characteristic abuse by appointing his Colonna relatives to places of income and power, it may be because he had to strengthen his family in order to have some physical security in the Vatican.  He had no army but upon the Papal States from every side pressed the amed forces of Naples, Florence, Venice, and Milan.  The Papal States, for the most part, had again fallen into hands of petty dictators who though they called themselves vicars of the pope, had assumed practically sovereign powers during the division of the papacy.  In Lombardy the clergy had for centuries been hostile to the bishops of Rome. 

Beyond the Alps lay a disordered Christendom that had lost most of its respect for the papacy and grudged it financial support."


Is it sometimes necessary to bring ones own family into power in order to solve a difficult situation?

Robby


ALF43

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #420 on: November 04, 2009, 06:06:00 PM »
Robby, by his slow progression thru those cities, did he not gain a great deal of support?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #421 on: November 04, 2009, 07:52:17 PM »
emily: my daughter lives in new york and I'm in california and my library has that service you spoke of and she uses it from new york. so is there someone in your old area who will work with you on that?
thimk

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #422 on: November 04, 2009, 08:01:52 PM »
http://www.historybookclub.com/Ancient-books/Rome|Greece.html


if Tome is your primary interest here is a site to thrill  it with four books at one dollar each available. . . 
thimk

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #423 on: November 04, 2009, 08:58:16 PM »
Thanks Claire for the suggestion on the e-books. I will check it out.

As for the history books, I have vowed not to buy any more since I don't have a place to put them. I have given away many to the children, and would like them to take most of the rest. There are a few that I cannot part with so they are here close at hand.

Emily

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #424 on: November 04, 2009, 09:51:57 PM »
Quote
Robby

Is it sometimes necessary to bring ones own family into power in order to solve a difficult situation?

In order to hold their territory, they had to depend on relatives and kin. That seems to be what Martin V was doing.

The ways of the Clan or Tribe was to produce large extended families with inter-marriage with other clans or tribes. The bigger the Clan, the larger the army they could field to protect their territory. Martin V was protecting his territory.

Some historians suggest that the dependence on 'outsiders' by the Romans to fill their army ranks, led to their eventual collapse. One day the 'outsider' looked at the army and saw that it contained more of his fellow countrymen than Romans and decided to see just what Rome had to offer as loot. They were off and Rome was wide open, without protection.

Emily


 

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #425 on: November 04, 2009, 10:50:13 PM »
We're dealing here with Nepotism (derived for the Latin word for nephew) - - - although the word has some derogatory aspects, in general it is not always so bad.

Read what Dick Jaffee, Former CEO of Oil-Dri, thinks about it - - -

"I don't like the word nepotism. It suggests unfair favoritism. But if you employ someone and they recommend a relative, they will make sure the relative does a good job. We hire a lot of related employees, and we say, 'You can get paid for what you do, not who you are.' My father started this company selling clay out of the back of his car. I like to say, 'I went to work for my father and he took a liking to me.' Generational change is a key issue. I took over in 1960. My son took over in 1996. He's doing a great job."

Robbie - - - I enjoyed the break, but it is great to be back with the book again.

ADOANNIE - - - I could not find a Chat CafĂ© anywhere on Seniors & Friends.  I can email you the blurb to post if you wish.

winsummm - - - if you can find a way of making the TEXT of SOC available to us online
(not the audio books or Kindle, I am sure Robbie would be delighted.

Brian

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #426 on: November 05, 2009, 12:21:21 AM »
brian I asked google and it came up with this which offers at least three plans for the stor of civilization and . anyone brave enough to try it.

http://www.filestube.com/597414a2ccdfac2703e9,g/Durant-Will-Ariel-The-Story-Of-Civilization-Full-Text.html
thimk

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #427 on: November 05, 2009, 09:35:17 AM »
Brian could Adoannie be talking about the Soda Shoppe? There is also a General Discussion group. I don't usually look in on those. Oh, and if you want to post something over there, don't forget the Classical Corner for us classical music buffs. I believe SOC does discuss music on occasion.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #428 on: November 05, 2009, 11:52:02 AM »
winsummm - - - thanks for your continued efforts.  I have researched most of these sites already,
and am not prepared to risk the health of my computer for the cause.

The site whose link you have given above,  is discussed in this article from Wikipedia

             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapidShare

and after reading it, I got cold feet - - -  and I,  for one,  am not "brave enough to try it".

Are you?

Brian.

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #429 on: November 05, 2009, 12:01:56 PM »
me brave??? nah!!!!!!!!!

back to durant and robby who wants us to do that. I give up on searching. I just enjoy doing it  . .the problem solving thing.

claire
thimk

serenesheila

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #430 on: November 05, 2009, 05:14:35 PM »
Emily, thank you for your explanation of how to begin.  I ordered a used book, of Volumn 5. For now, I will just follow the discussion.

Sheila

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #431 on: November 05, 2009, 05:37:43 PM »
SHEILA:  good. Robby won't let you get lost.

If I was in such a dangerous situation, I would want my family around me, too. But we have seen in following these pages what giving posts on the basis of relationship, rather than merit can lead to.

We'll see how Martin makes out. i assume that all these armies want the riches that the papal states have. Or are they broke?

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #432 on: November 05, 2009, 05:42:13 PM »
WINSOM: I can't get into my mail today for some reason. But my address is there in my profile.

ANNIE

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #433 on: November 05, 2009, 06:07:26 PM »
Frybabe,
Yes, the Soda Shoppe would be it.  Good to see you here, my dear.  Good idea about the classical music site run by that man with more in his head about music than anyone I know.

I am for the time just trying to read everyday comments whlle I see if I can get a copy of vol 5 or just learn from all of the smart posters right here in front of me plus read Robby's posts.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

PatH

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #434 on: November 05, 2009, 07:59:02 PM »
Don Reid, who runs the classical music site, joined in the discussion here of Geraldine Brooks' "People of the Book", and was both very interested, and a valuable contributor.  If this is within his fields of interest, he would be a superb addition.

I'm getting back gradually by skimming through the posts.

If typing help becomes necessary in the future, I would be glad to do some of it, but there would have to be some lead time for me to get the book.

PatH

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #435 on: November 05, 2009, 08:00:42 PM »
For newcomers: you don't have to have the book.  Robby feeds us copious extracts, and we take it from there.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #436 on: November 05, 2009, 08:33:51 PM »
Durant says: "The capital of Christendom was one of the least civilzied cities in Europe.


Is Washington, D.C. civilized?  Is Kabul civilized?  Is TEheran civilized?

Robby

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #437 on: November 05, 2009, 10:49:39 PM »
Durant says: "The capital of Christendom was one of the least civilzied cities in Europe.


Is Washington, D.C. civilized?  Is Kabul civilized?  Is TEheran civilized?

Robby


no as centers of power they are more into politics than art I should think. I only know about DC and it's pretty slummy although they are improving their schools there.
thimk

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #438 on: November 05, 2009, 10:55:31 PM »
I had a friend who was raised in upper class Terhan and the girls who were enco;uraged to go to college studdied only science and math. there were no art offered.

she and her boyfriend ran away to get married here because there was kidney failure in his family and her family was strongly against their union.  I think he did get it. . .the kidney problem. He managed/owned a foreign car dealership here  and she opened a mens fine clothing  and imports shop in Laguna, studied psychology and practices.

their community made it a practice to do business only within itsef. It has been a long I don't know how they are now. Nice couple who prefer our ways to those of their origen.
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #439 on: November 06, 2009, 12:16:36 AM »
There are four ingredients required for civilization: A society must be economically viable as well as be free from threat of attack. That is; one must have not only provisions for oneself and one's family but chaos must have ended. If one is free from imminent danger then moral traditions may apply and the society may pursuit the arts and knowledge.

Rome was vulnerable in the early part of the fifteenth century. It's local government was corrupt. The enemy was at the gates, in fact, several enemies were at the gates. It's traditional moral force was immoral at best and absent for much of the period.

In the 1420's the arts were barely able to flourish. The leading patron had flown the coop and the usurper was too busy encouraging his physical proclivities to be bothered with the arts. The arts moved from Rome to other cities. Florence and Sienna housed art colonies and the Church in those cities continued to sponsor art.

Learning was struggling to find a center where it could flourish unimpeded. Paris had some success but the influence of religion was both a hindrance and a help.

It is important to remember that when Chaos ends civilization begins.

It is interesting that you choose Washington and Kabul as examples. Kabul is a city in chaos as are many of the cities of the middle east. Security is their main concern and while it is absent civilization will have to wait. While life in Washington, on the other hand,  is chaotic it is civilized chaos.