Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online

[Deems]

The Mystery of Edwin Drood - by Charles Dickens

Had Dickens lived to complete "The Mystery of Edwin Drood," his 15th novel would have been one of his major accomplishments, say many of his critics. The novel was scheduled to be published in twelve installments  from April 1870 to March 1871. Only six of the installments were completed before Dickens's death in 1870, which left the mystery half finished. "The ideal mystery is one you would read if the end was missing," writes Richard Chandler, creator of Philip Marlowe. Reading and discussing an unfinished mystery is a unique experience, especially when shared with a group. Will we agree with the critics, or go mad trying to figure out what he intended for the young engaged couple introduced at the start of the book?  And what has become of young Edwin Drood? Help us track down clues as we read along ... and then we'll each propose our own ending during the last few days of the discussion.

Chapter discussion schedule September 1-6: 1-6 September 7-13: 7-12 September 14-20: 13-18 September 21-27: 19-23 This unfinished mystery is available in several places on the Internet at no cost but you might want to purchase the book or borrow it from your library, in order to read one of the editions, such as the Penguin Classics, that has useful footnotes.

Questions for your consideration this week: Chapters 19-23

1.   Chapter 19--Shadow on the Sun-Dial--what is the significance of the title?

2.  What is Jasper willing to sacrifice for Rosa?  Were you surprised by his declaration of love?  Was Rosa?

3.  Chapter 20--A Flight.  Is it a good idea for Rosa to go to Mr. Grewgious?  Does he seem less "angular" and "dry" now that we've seen more of him?

4.  Chapter 21--A Recognition.  Mr Tartar has a history, it seems.  What do you think Dickens might have planned for him?  How old is he?

5.  Chapter 22--A Gritty State of Things Comes on.  Can you picture Tartar's home and the conversation between Rosa and Helena Landless?  Which parts of the description stand out?

6.  Why does Billickin object to signing the lease with her Christian name?

7.  Are the Billickin and Miss Twinkleton worthy opponents?

8.  Why does Miss Twinkleton expurgate all the love scenes when reading to Rosa?

9.  Chapter 23--The Dawn Again.  Did you notice the shift back to present tense early in the chapter?

10.  Why does the Princess Puffer follow Jasper from London to Cloisterham?

See the previous questions and related links.

Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

Deems:
There's GUM!  And she brings with her photographs of lascars, those east Indian sailors, one of whom lies sprawled sideways across the bed in the opium den.  Thank you, Gum, and you made me laugh because you said exactly what my daughter has always said about Dickens--it's those ridiculous names!! 

In defense of Dickens (though I'm not sure even I can defend ROSA BUD), there are some peculiar last names in England so he had a bunch to pick from for various characters.  For example, in later life, Dickens and his wife were separated and he developed an "interest" in a young actress.  Her maiden name was "Landless," so that one is a real name.  I think what he did, more than invent all the silly names, was notice names around him that he could attach to a character who seemed to embody that name.

I currently have a plebe whose last name is "Slack."  Just imagine the character I could create around that name.  Mr. Slack says that he's heard jokes about his name all his life.

As for the most dainty and particular ROSA BUD--I offer only the excuse that the Victorian audience was incredibly sentimental--kittens and young girls and really sappy greeting cards and fairies of all kinds--and Dickens knew his audience. 

Let's watch Rosa carefully and see if she turns out to have something inside her that resembles an adult person.

The first installment of Drood was Chapters 1-4.  The Penguin edition has an asterisk at the end of each installment. 

[JoanP]

And how about the nickname the poor girl answers to - "Pussy."   Right away you get the feeling that there is not much to the girl - certainly not the type to arouse such passion in Drood's Uncle Jack.  I'm wondering if it isn't the opium use.  That, plus the fact that he is a young man (weren't you surprised to learn that he is only 26?) and there doesn't seem to be other ladies in his rather small circle of acquaintances.  I wonder if we will learn what brings him to this little hamlet in the first place.  The job?  He doesn't seem to have family here or other friends.

From Appendix 5, some of the side effects of smoked opium - "the stimulation of the male libidinal impulse" - it is said to produce erection."  So I'm imagining Uncle Jack  hurrying to the church in his choir robes - and then over to give the music lesson to the budding young rosebud.

Dickens wasted no time describing this character as an ominous figure - dark and brooding - condescending to his fellow man too, the lascars, (thanks for the link,  Gum) - the Chinaman.   His more or less exotic dreams of tens of thousands of dancing girls are far superior to those of  his "repugnant" roommates  in the opium den - "What visions can she
have- visions of butcher shops and public houses...While Dickens provides little description of his character in the title, our attention is drawn to him through the eyes of his uncle:

"Mr. Jasper looks on intently at the young fellow.  Once for all, a look of intentness and intensity - a look of hungry, exacting, watchful, and yet devoted affection - is always, now and ever afterwards, on the Jasper face, whenever the Jasper face is addressed in this direction."

Watch out for this two-faced Wicked Man...thanks for filling in the rest of the hymn, PatH - did you notice that Dickens left out the part about salvation and turning away from wickedness   Was this intentional?

[JoanP]

Jackie et al - thank you for responding to  the paragoric question.  I thought I remembered that use from long ago.  You have to wonder what dreams the opiate provided the sleeping babies...

"Has anyone thought about how Dickens' readers here in the States must have longed for the ship to arrive with the latest installments?" Maryal

Maryal, Matthew Pearl must have thought about it - as he opens his story on the Boston docks as the final installment is unloaded from London...
I hope you all will consider taking up his "The Last Dickens"  after reading Dickens' last installment.

[JoanK]

I listened to the first chapter read online -- it reads aloud well, as you can imagine. Pat had warned me that it was an opium dream, so I was clued in.

Now for the second.

[ANNIE]

JoanP,
The movies were both pretty old, probably made back in the '30's and maybe one in the '50's.  The sound was so bad on the oldest that I almost gave up on it.  Other than that, nothing to tell here.

Lascars?  Hmmm, why were the lascars even mentioned.  How many of the Americans who awaited each chapter knew what a "lascar" was???

Do I detect the possibility of the two unhappy 'lovers' wanting to change their fathers' orders??  Do I understand them to want a choice of their unlived lives??  Wow, what a mess this will be if it ever gets bandied about.

[ANNIE]

My gosh, paragoric is made from opium???  We were told to give it to our babies when they had stomach cramps and then very sparingly, but I had no idea that it was made from opium.  Good grief!
We also had an OTC called "terpenhydrate and codiene" which was a cough medicine.  Hey, I'm not that old that no here remembers these things???  Your kidding, right???   Sulphanilamide tablets or pills, given as an anti-biotic for just about anything that seemed like strep throat or scarlet fever or scarletina??  No one?? 

[Deems]

Joan K--Thank you so much for calling attention to the links that Marcie has gathered for us. 

I just listened to chapters 2 and 3--I love being read aloud to.  The conversation between Jasper and his nephew is fascinating to listen to as is that between Rosa and Edwin.  I may listen to all the rest of the chapters that I can fit into an increasingly busy schedule.

How it makes the novel come alive to listen!

And I can understand how families must have spent the evenings with some of the audience insisting on hearing the next chapter.

As for paragoric and those other old medicines.  I suspect that many of them had substances, such as opium, in them that we'd all rather not think about! 

I do remember my sister telling me how lucky I was not to have to take castor oil.  Apparently it was all the rage when she was a child, discontinued by the time I came along.

[JoanP]

Since Jasper is an opium addict, we're bound to hear more about it in the chapters to come.  One last bit from Appendix 5 on the effects of smoking opium -
shortness of breath, prone to coughing and disabling fits, leaving users with a strange film over their eyes.

By the way, this description of an opium user in Appendix 5 in the Penguin edition - was taken from Thomas de  Quincey's Confessions of an English Opium Eater (1821)   De Quincey was the same age as Jasper John in our story - 26..  Dickens Dickens had researched opium use - even frequented the opium dens in London for detailed description of how the opium was prepared for smoking.   (No, there's nothing to indicate that he smoked the opium, but you have to wonder how he was received.  Maybe because he was Charles Dickens they gave him easy access?)

"Common to all users, the symptoms are easily recognized.  Hands shake, drops of perspiration accumulate on foreheads, eyes stare blindly covered with a curious film while lungs wheeze and rattle.."  -

 

Surely young Edwin will notice such symptoms when visiting his uncle.  Dickens seems quite restrained in describing Edwin, doesn't he?  The only way we can get to know him is through his dialog with his uncle - and with his intended.  Annie, I was interested in the conversation between the two young people as they walked alone - neither are happy with the arrangement made by their parents.  Do they come right out and say this - or is it just subtly implied.  I do remember Edwin saying to Rosa - "Can't you understand anything?"

We're flying away on a jet plane today - Prague and then London.   Plan to  keep up with the reading while abroad - also will check out the London bookstores to see if Drood is getting the same renewed attention there as it is here.

 Keep an eye on the funny uncle, okay?       

[Deems]

Have a wonderful trip, JoanP!! and thank you for coming in with more information on opium use.

We will miss you!!

Edwin does notice that his uncle is having problems, and Jasper admits that he has been taking opium.  The confession does not fill Edwin with horror--remember that opium was not illegal--but the reader is alerted to yet more effects on the opium taker.  

I'm fascinated by the sketch of Rosa that Edwin made.  It now hangs on Jasper's wall.  Apparently, he thought highly enough of the artist, or of the subject, to display it.  There are at least three references to the sketch in chapter 2.

Has anyone else listened to a Librivox recording of a chapter yet?  I think the reader is very good, and the dialogue is really interesting.

Anne--I agree with you.  Neither Edwin nor Rosa seems particularly happy with their engagement.  Rosa would like to have had some choice, and Edwin seems focused on believing that--somehow--things will work out once they are married and safely in Egypt.  His optimism looks like wishful thinking to me since he is clearly aware that Rosa always finds ways to quarrel with him.  

I think "Lumps of Love" is a wonderful name for a confectionary shop.  Rosa certainly seems to get all sticky--to the point where she tells Edwin not to kiss her because she has sugar all over her!!  Way to get out of it.

[marcie]

Thanks for the additional information related to opium. The "film over the eyes" is one to watch for.

What a picture of everyone in the same bed in the opium den! Regarding the comments at the end of the first chapter by the "watcher" in the opium den, my opinion is that the person (presumably Jasper), who checks to see if what his fellow smokers say is "unintelligible," is doing so to satisfy himself that whatever HE might have said, under the influence, also is unintelligible. He doesn't want to have given away any secrets or secret plans he might have been dreaming about. "Wherefore 'unintelligible' is again the comment of the watcher, made with some reassured nodding of his head and a gloomy smile."

[marcie]

In chapter two, Dickens characterizes Edwin Drood as young ..."As the boy (for he is little more) lays a hand on Jaspers shoulder....." I agree with you, Joan, that his view of the arrangement with Rosa is one of hoping for the best. He seems to be good hearted but not inclined to think about things very much.  Both he and Rosa seem to feel somewhat doomed in the relationship because of the fact that it is not their own choice. They both seem fond of one another but hate the fact that they've been bound to one another  since infancy by the wishes of their fathers.

Jasper appears to genuinely love (has devoted affection for) his nephew Drood. Does he?

From Chapter 2: "...Mr. Jasper stands still, and looks on intently at the young fellow... Once for all, a look of intentness and intensity -- a look of hungry, exacting, watchful, and yet devoted affection -- is always, now and ever afterwards, on the Jasper face whenever the Jasper face is addressed in this direction. And whenever it is so addressed, it is never, on this occasion or on any other, dividedly addressed; it is always concentrated."

Why refer to "the Jasper face"? It made me think of "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde," although that novel was written 16 years after this one.

Even if Jasper has real affection for Drood, he could use that to mask his feelings for Rosa. Why does he have Pussy's portrait on his wall? Because it is the artwork of his nephew or because of the subject of the work?

[marcie]

I think that Dickens' use of the present tense, especially in the first section of the book, helps draw the reader into the story, when the tendency might be for the reader to try to distance him/herself from the scenes and action. I didn't pay careful attention to see when Dickens' switches to past tense but he seems to go back and forth a bit later in the book.

[Gumtree]

JoanP,
Lascars?  Hmmm, why were the lascars even mentioned.  How many of the Americans who awaited each chapter knew what a "lascar" was???

Adoannie: I think many American readers of the time would have been aware of the Lascars as they were evident in every port around the globe. They were vital to the economy of shipping companies and most ships had a large component of crew made up of Lascars and Chinese. Sadly the Chinese sailors were seen as the lowest form of humanity while the Lascars were believed to be sub-human and treated accordingly.

I think Dickens mentions the China-man and Lascar and a haggard woman as occupants in the opium den to illustrate the sort of 'low' company our man Jasper must associate with to obtain his opium fix and Dickens knew the majority of his readers would understand the reference.


Marcie: I didn't think of Jasper (I'm sure it is Jasper) being concerned about giving away any secrets whilst under the influence of the drug - but on re-reading just now I'm sure you're right. If he had had any dark plans he would want to be sure his mutterings were indeed 'unintelligible'
 

[Gumtree]

I wasn't at all surprised to find the uncle Jasper to be only 6 years older than his nephew as I come from a large family myself - I was aged 10 and my youngest brother was only 4 when our eldest nephew was born.

I think Jasper envies his young nephew, Edwin - his fiancee, his career and his prospects - going off to Egypt as an engineer...while Jasper himself detests his own life ...no whirl or uproar around me, no distracting commerce or calculation, no risk, no change of place, myself devoted to the art I pursue, my business my pleasure...I hate it. The cramped monotony of my existence grinds me away by the grain... he really is an unhappy man.

Miss Twinkleton's establishment would have been hard to take but then the young ladies wouldn't know any alternative by which to compare. I don't know how I would have got on there but I really would have objected had I been sent to the 'parallel establishment' run by the late Mrs Sapsea (formerly Miss Brobity) if the style of dictation she favoured and her admiration for the 'intellect' of Mr. Sapsea is anything to go by - but then, they say that love is blind. Poor Ethelinda.


JoanP Prague and then London - Love it.

[ALF43]

Damn, I just lost a whole post because I looked up a spelling of a word.  I  fear that the book I received has no footnotes but it seems with all of you, I will not need them.  I love the names Dickens has given his characters.  Rose Bud, AKA Pussy.  Oh my, please is that ever a play on words.  Mr. Crispsparkle makes me smile.  All orderly and fresh, glittering in his cheerful way.

The opium den is unbelievable, I had to read the chapter 3 times to make sense of who was who(m). The old hag makes out very well it appears to me.  She carries on and complains about business being slow and the "goods" being expensive as she sucks in the dreamlike effects of the drug, at the other's expense.  She's smarter than she looks, I'm sure  (as all drug dealers are -she knows how to play the game to the best of her advantage.)  As Maryal stated already, he just didn't think that these folks were "in his social standing." Hmmm, not good enough for his social status BUT OK to share a deleterious drug and a narcoleptic afternoon.
I shall return after I cook  but for now, I am going to pout about my brilliant (and forever lost 1st post.)

I agree with you Gum, we must keep an eye out for Jasper and his antipathy towards his nephew.  His "concentrated" face can only mean he is fiercely trying to cover up his jealous dislike he feels toward Edwin.

[serenesheila]

I just finished reading all of your posts.  I am so glad that I decided to read them!  After reading the first chapter, I was reading to give up.  Now, I am so glad that I didn't dispose of the book, on my Kindle. 

I really thought that most of my brain had dried up, and died.  It reassures me to know that several of you didn't understand the first chapter, either.  I had just about decided that I was not intelligent enough to understand this book! 

Now, I will reread Chapter One, and try to catch up over this Labor Day weekend.

Sheila

[ALF43]

sereneSheila- it says something of this group that we don't quite "GET" the den of iniquity- the opium den.  Hang in there.

[PatH]

Cheer up, Shiela, the worst is over.  Aside from some temporary confusion as to who the people are at the start of chapter 2, it's smooth sailing now.

[Deems]

Why Sheila!! I'm so glad you read the posts before you gave up.  The first chapter IS confusing.  It makes sense only when you know that we're in a shabby opium den (probably in London) watching the after-effects of four strangers who've been smoking opium.  Dickens has mixed in the Oriental (Asian) elements--the spike, the elephants, a sultan, the cymbals to give it the flavor of the exotic.  Appendix 1 (Penguin edition) explains that 80-90 % of England's supply of opium came from Turkey, so Dickens has carefully selected these elements.

I'm so glad you came back anyway.  Pat H is correct--smooth sailing from now on except for possible confusion about characters. 

Marcie--I too never considered that Jasper might have been listening to the "indecipherable" mumblings of his fellow addicts because he worried what HE might have said--or cried out--in his opium dream  I completely missed that possibility.  I saw only an arrogant man who assumed that no one from the lower classes could possibly have interesting dreams.

Marcie and Joan P both point to the information about Jasper being "two-faced."  We must watch him carefully!  There's another character in these first few chapters who leads a dual existence--can you ferret him/her out?

Thanks, Gum, for the information about Lascars being well-known all over the world.  London was a major port and they must have been a common sight there.  American readers on the East Coast and West Coast would have known who they were--and for the rest, dictionaries.

Alf (Andy)--so sorry you lost your original post.  I've lost a few myself.  I love your observations about how well the "old hag" is making out.  Not only does she prepare the wonderful mixture (claiming that no one knows how to prepare it as well) but she partakes herself.  And I enjoy your remark about Jasper, "Hmmm, not good enough for his social status BUT OK to share a deleterious drug and a narcoleptic afternoon."

A narcoleptic afternoon followed by Evening services back in Cloisterham!  And then a meeting with his dear nephew when he is still having some after-effects of his indulgence.

[JoanK]

I listened to Chapters one and two online. Then my book came, and I read the rest last night.

I read Chapter two again -- it's interesting the different impressions I got from llistening and reading it. First, the audio chapters online are abridged. Usually, I don't like abridgements, but in Dickens' case, it's a mercy! I found it impossible to follow the conversation at the beginning of Chapter 2 aloud: difficult enough reading it, and going back over it. But D's humor came through more for me when I heard it -- not his broad satire, which is as easy to miss as an elephant, but the wry little comments at the end of sentances. I think when I read him, this ocean of words washes over me, and I zone out a bit.

Some things sound even much worse aloud. If Drood had talked about "Pussy" one more time, I would have thrown up. What do you think of that character? Not only are her name and nickname horrible, but she doesn't anywhere near resemble a human being to me.

[Deems]

Forgot to say that I think Marcie's point about Dickens' use of the present tense in these chapters to make the story more immediate is excellent.  We will be staying in present tense for some time.  Look at the verbs in the narrator's sections.  Always present tense. 

[marcie]

Serenesheila, I'm glad you're sticking with us.

JoanK, that's interesting that you're forming different opinions from your reading and listening to the book.

[ALF43]

 Oh how I wish that I could listen to this on Audiotape.  Like you, Maryal, i love to be read to.  I just finished listening to the 16 CDs of The Echo Maker and enjoyed it immensely.  I would love to hear the nuances in the voices of the characters.

I love Dickens prose how apt is this sentence?  An ancient city, Cloisterham and no meet dwelling-place for anyone with hankerings after the noisy world.  A monotonous, silent city, deriving an earthy flavour throughout from its Cathedral crypt,.....
Oh to be able to write like that and conjure up such wonderful imagery.
The whole bloody city like a convent, confined and reclusive.  Brrrr, that whole sentence gives me shivers.
 

[PatH]

Alf, the whole of Cloisterham gives me shivers.  What a fate, to be stuck there!

You lead into a point I was going to make about Dickens' language in this book.  It's been a long time since I read any Dickens (I think the last time was rereading "David Copperfield" in 1992) but it seems to me that it isn't quite typical.  There are a lot more bits of dry, understated humor and sneaky ironical touches than I remember.  Is this so, Deems, or have I just forgotten.  Either way, I'm enjoying all the amusing little touches.

[ALF43]

No, you are correct Pat.  I never remember enjoying Dickens like this.  It was too many years ago, I guess, or perhaps the humor was lost on my young mind.

[marcie]

I agree with you, Alf and Pat. I am enjoying the humor. Some of the details are very funny. When Edwin visits Rosa she comes into the room with a silk apron thrown over her head. She says, " 'it is so absurd to have the girls and the servants scuttling about after one, like mice in the wainscot; and it is so absurd to be called upon!' The apparition appears to have a thumb in the corner of its mouth while making this complaint."

[pedln]

Good evening, I’m still in, tho it was touch and go during that first chapter.  Honestly, the thought of opium never entered my head.  All I could think of was “unintelligible.”

I’m behind in the reading, trying to get afloat with Latin first, and had to finish my f2f book before our monthly meeting today.  But, am now up to chapter three and am ready to go on.

I’ve read very little Dickens, and what I know of his life is from Elliot Engel’s delightful lecture several years ago at a local dinner/speaker club.  A bit of a scoundral, was he?

Gum, thank you for the link on lascars.  Another unfamiliar term.  I don’t doubt they were considered the lowest of the low.  And all the posts are great.  Like Sheila, they give me courage to go on.  I now have the book – in print, and am also looking online at our library’s “Net Library” at The Puzzle of Dickens’ Last Plot by Andrew Lang – pub. 1905, appears to be an early version of Cliff notes – which makes for a chicken/egg thing.  Probably better to read the read Dickens first, then see what went over your head.

[marcie]

Pedln, I'm very glad that you're still with us. That first chapter seems to have been a stumbling block for many.

[ANNIE]

Thanks, Deems, for the link or suggestion for trying the site where I was able to download the first chapter into my I-Tunes folder and then listen to it.  I am a real fan of audio books so this is right up my alley.  I am hoping my computer downloaded the whole book while I slept last night.
When one listens to a book being read by an actor, its just like attending a play.

[Deems]

MORNing everyone!!!  I'm off to the doctor in a few, but a couple of things before I go.

I was talking last night with my daughter about the first chapter and how much of a stumbling block it is--we don't know where we are, who the characters are, what they are doing together, and worst of all the incomprehensible dreams they are having and we are being given a taste of.

What a risk, I thought, for any author to begin in a way that would turn off readers.

Then I remembered.

Dickens was enormously popular in his day, almost from the very beginning.  Drood is the last novel he worked on.  By that time he had traveled in America, had given many dramatic readings of portions of his novels (some say it was these readings that did him in), was known all over the English-speaking world, and beyond. 

He was so famous he could have written that first chapter in Sanskrit and his readers would have not been deterred.

I doubt very much that he would have taken such a risk when he was a young, hardly known author.

Andy--was it you who loves listening to books??

If you click on the link in the header which says "several places on the internet," you will see a list that Marcie has compiled.  Scroll down, and you will see Librivox--you can listen to the whole book, chapter by chapter, and it is wonderfully read by a fellow from Kent who does all manner of voices.

As Annie says, it's like listening to a play.

[ALF43]

Oh Maryal, thank you, thank you!  I love it!  I just listened to the first 4 chapters on the Librivox link after downloading it.  It adds so much dimension to a story to hear it spoken aloud.

Can't you just see all of us in the 1860's sitting around anxiously awaiting the newest installment of Dicken's story?  It's exciting to think of it that way.  We are discussing the story just as it was written.  Here we are, a bunch of folk, sitting around giving our own opinion as to what in the world Charlie was trying to tell us.

He certainly wasn't telling a love story with Rosa BUD and Edwin, in answer to question #7.

7.  What difficulties do Edwin and Rosa seem to be having as they walk out together from the Nun's House?  Are they the typical engaged couple?

 

In today's world Mr. Dickens would have said that they were not "happy campers."
She is rude in her false "polite" little quips when addressing Edwin.  She's cultured and polished but condenscending when she speaks to her betrothed on their walk.  Wanting him to pretend, it's as if she wished that they were two different people.   I dislike her immensely in this chapter.

"You shall pretend that you are engaged to someone else and I'll pretend that I am not engaged to anybody, and then we shan't quarrel."

[/i]
That is so disdainful!  She's an egotist to boot; "I feel as if it (the  house) would miss me when I am gone so far away, so young!"  The haughty little wench!

[Deems]

Andy--Glad that you are enjoying hearing Drood read aloud.  The reader is very good, isn't he?  It really does help with the dialogue, causes me to notice things I might read right over.  And reader does such a good job presenting the different voices.

I agree that it's probably not the happiest thing in the world to be affianced from birth.  No fun and games in finding out who you will marry but instead always knowing--and knowing that the choice has been taken away from you.

Rosa says it well (I find her more approachable if I don't call her Rosa Bud or, worse, Rosebud) in Chapter 3:

"Ah!" cries Rosa, shaking her head and bursting into real tears.  "I wish we could be friends!  It's because we can't be friends, that we try one another so.  I am a young little thing, Eddy, to have an old heartache; but I really, really have, sometimes.  Don't be angry.  I know you have one yourself, too often.  We should both of us have done better, if What is to be had been left What might have been.  I am quite a serious little thing now, and not teasing you.  Let each of us forbear, this one time, on our own account, and on the other's."

I think of Rosa, so young to be married, so tied to the marriage, so deprived of choice.  She knows that Eddy also suffers from the engagement, but he will have a career in Egypt, and she will have only him and the house and presumably children.

[ANNIE]

Well, I was able to download the whole book and it is delightful to listen to so I am still in Chapter 3 but moving right along. 
I have company for the three days weekend so won't be able to comment much but will keep on reading.

[Deems]

Good to hear, Annie, since mostly I'm hearing crickets around here this morning.  I expect that Labor Day weekend might be a little slow what with travels and company.  Good to hear that you have downloaded the whole book and are sticking with us.  I'd miss you if you left.

Good morning, all.  I too am busy this weekend, but will check in now and again to see if the conversation has picked up. 

[marcie]

I didn't quite get the "double life" of Miss Twinkleton. Apparently she had a suitor in the past. In the evenings she recalls a life that may not have been as proper as the one she leads as head of the seminary for girls. I might be missing something or this aspect of her existence isn't as developed as Dickens might have made it. It doesn't seem developed enough to parallel the "two lives" of Jasper.

That Sapsea sure is a jackass, according to Dicken's definition. He certainly is full of himself. His inscription on his wife's tombstone is priceless. It sounds like his wife was a timid person who didn't actually say "yes" to his marriage proposal but was sort of talked into it by him since she didn't say no. Maybe she was willing to accept a comfortable material living similar to Pride and Prejudice's Charlotte who married Mr. Collins, the cleric whose patron was the Lady Catherine de Berg.

[JoanK]

Accoerding to Sapsea, his wife was happy just admiring him. But that's HIS version. We'll never know.

Dickens' description  of Rosa reminds me of Tolstoy's description of the young Natasha in War and Peace. Except that Tolstoy's description works and Dickens' doesn't work (for me). Of course Natasha matures -- we'll see whether Rosa does as we go along.

In any case, she is certainly upset over the thought of marrying Edwin in a year. He is too, but won't admit it.

I too am beginning to appreciate Dickens a lot more. He still really annoys me (as you can tell by the grouchy tone of my posts -- sorry), but I actually found myself reading ahead, and had to force myself to put the book down.

[PatH]

Rosa certainly seems childish, and rather annoying to deal with--imagine greeting a visitor with your head hidden under an apron.  But she's using these tricks to avoid facing up to real life.  And she seems to be attracted to Jasper.  I agree, Deems, I feel sorry for her.  Anyway, how could anyone learn to be a grown-up in Miss Twinkleton's school?

[pedln]

Marcie, I don't understand the double life of Miss Twinkleton either, but it seems sad.  She gets gussied up in the evening to sit and think about her lost love?

What a dreary dreay place Cloisterham must be.  Dickens does a wonderful job a painting the description.  It's dusty and dirty and nothing ever changes, not even the stuff in the pawn shop.

I'm still moving very slowly, but getting more in tune with what's going on.  Miss Rosa Bud is certainly the center of everyone's attention.  I wonder how the other girls feel about her.

[PatH]

There are a lot of pretty, childish, silly heroines in Victorian literature.  Look at Dora in "David Copperfield".  In DC, though, Dickens shows how irritating it is to be married to someone that silly.

By the way, my book has a cast of characters in the front, and they are listed with all the men first, then the women.

[PatH]

What a dreary dreay place Cloisterham must be.  Dickens does a wonderful job a painting the description.  It's dusty and dirty and nothing ever changes, not even the stuff in the pawn shop.

I'm with you, Pedln, it sounds like an awful hole.  It's surprising it can support a store that just sells Turkish delight.  For anyone who doesn't know it, Turkish delight is a sort of gluey, gelatinous candy, thickened with cornstarch, flavored with rosewater, and thickly coated with powdered sugar to keep it from sticking together.  Rosa would definitely have to lick the "dust of delight" off her fingers.

There is a Dorothy Sayers mystery in which someone is suspected of having put powdered arsenic in the coating of Turkish Delight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Delight