Poll

What do you think happened to Edwin Drood?

Killed by Jasper
4 (36.4%)
Killed by Neville
0 (0%)
Killed by someone other than above
1 (9.1%)
Still alive
6 (54.5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online  (Read 68301 times)

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #280 on: September 19, 2009, 10:42:37 AM »
The Mystery of Edwin Drood - by Charles Dickens

Had Dickens lived to complete "The Mystery of Edwin Drood," his 15th novel would have been one of his major accomplishments, say many of his critics. The novel was scheduled to be published in twelve installments  from April 1870 to March 1871. Only six of the installments were completed before Dickens's death in 1870, which left the mystery half finished.

"The ideal mystery is one you would read if the end was missing," writes Richard Chandler, creator of Philip Marlowe. Reading and discussing an unfinished mystery is a unique experience, especially when shared with a group. Will we agree with the critics, or go mad trying to figure out what he intended for the young engaged couple introduced at the start of the book?  And what has become of young Edwin Drood? Help us track down clues as we read along ... and then we'll each propose our own ending during the last few days of the discussion.

Chapter discussion schedule
September 1-6: 1-6
September 7-13: 7-12
September 14-20: 13-18
September 21-27: 19-23

This unfinished mystery is available in several places on the Internet at no cost but you might want to purchase the book or borrow it from your library, in order to read one of the editions, such as the Penguin Classics, that has useful footnotes.

Questions for your consideration this week: Chapters 19-23

1.   Chapter 19--Shadow on the Sun-Dial--what is the significance of the title?

2.  What is Jasper willing to sacrifice for Rosa?  Were you surprised by his declaration of love?  Was Rosa?

3.  Chapter 20--A Flight.  Is it a good idea for Rosa to go to Mr. Grewgious?  Does he seem less "angular" and "dry" now that we've seen more of him?

4.  Chapter 21--A Recognition.  Mr Tartar has a history, it seems.  What do you think Dickens might have planned for him?  How old is he?

5.  Chapter 22--A Gritty State of Things Comes on.  Can you picture Tartar's home and the conversation between Rosa and Helena Landless?  Which parts of the description stand out?

6.  Why does Billickin object to signing the lease with her Christian name?

7.  Are the Billickin and Miss Twinkleton worthy opponents?

8.  Why does Miss Twinkleton expurgate all the love scenes when reading to Rosa?

9.  Chapter 23--The Dawn Again.  Did you notice the shift back to present tense early in the chapter?

10.  Why does the Princess Puffer follow Jasper from London to Cloisterham?


See the previous questions and related links.



Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

ALF43

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #281 on: September 19, 2009, 11:01:41 AM »
Here I am.  Just checking in and marking.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #282 on: September 19, 2009, 11:19:08 AM »


Good morning, everyone.  I forgot to answer Joan P's question about swine flu at the Academy.  Last I heard we had three confirmed cases; all have recovered or are in process.  Apparently the mids are examined every morning before they go to class.  Uh-huh.  I'm wondering just who does these inspections.  Anyway, the flu shot will be available in early to mid-October, and I'm betting that our students will get the shots.  Since all the mids (about 4000 give or take) live under one roof and eat in a common dining room, we are more susceptible to quick spread than other places.  Keep fingers crossed.

Pat H brings up "When Shall These Three Meet Again" which follows Neville, Edwin and Jasper as they live through the last day we will ever see Ned again.  Dickens has changed the witch's question from Macbeth, "When shall we three meet again?" by only one word.  Plus the chapter ends with a violent storm, much like the storm in Macbeth that occurs the night Macbeth kills King Duncan.  Things are so bad that night that chimneys topple and horses start attacking each other. 

I don't think there are any references in Drood to one of my favorite lines from Macbeth.  It belongs to one of the witches, "By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes," and introduces Macbeth.  Certainly Dickens admired the play, and he has picked a good one since it is the bloodiest of all Shakespeare's plays as well as the shortest of the tragedies.  Duncan's murder occurs early in the play to be followed by many others, including Macduff's little children. 

There's a small piece of evidence in this chapter that I overlooked when I first read it.  When Ned discovers that his watch has stopped, he goes to a jeweler who, in conversation, tells him that his Uncle Jasper had kept an inventory of "all the jewelry his gentleman relative ever wore; namely, his watch and chain, and shirt-pin."  A very strange observation--what on earth is Jasper doing paying such close attention to Ned's personal jewelry?  Remember the diary he showed to Crisparkle?  The one he says is a record of not only his life, but also Ned's?  I'm thinking that since Jasper does not know about the ring, it would have figured heavily in evidence against him.  If he killed Ned, he would keep the ring if he discovered it, and if he did not discover the ring, it could be used later to identify the body if it has been concealed within the crypt.

As Edwin goes away with his watch, he thinks "Dear old Jack!  If I were to make an extra crease in my neck-cloth, he would think it worth noticing!"  If Ned weren't so self-involved, he might wonder why his uncle watches him so obsessively.


Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #283 on: September 19, 2009, 11:20:15 AM »
Welcome back, Andy!  Talk to us.  What have you been thinking, and how are you?

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #284 on: September 19, 2009, 11:20:55 AM »
Thank you, Pat H, once again--for marking the heading.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #285 on: September 19, 2009, 11:41:48 AM »
Here's Lenox's speech from Macbeth, telling of the night before:

LENNOX

    The night has been unruly: where we lay,
    Our chimneys were blown down; and, as they say,
    Lamentings heard i' the air; strange screams of death,
    And prophesying with accents terrible
    Of dire combustion and confused events
    New hatch'd to the woeful time: the obscure bird
    Clamour'd the livelong night: some say, the earth
    Was feverous and did shake.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #286 on: September 19, 2009, 12:57:00 PM »
Yes, jewelry is turning out to be important.  When Edwin decides for the last time not to tell Rosa about the ring, "Among the mighty store of chains that are for ever forging, day and night, in the vast ironworks of time and circumstance, there was one chain forged in the moment of that small conclusion, riveted to the foundations of heaven and earth, and gifted with invincible force to hold and drag."

The ring will serve to identify the body, or be found in the lime pit, or be taken by someone involved in Edwin's fate and be traced back, or will be found and because Rosa doesn't know about it not be recognized for what it is.

The watch taken from the weir has already supplied evidence.  The jeweler testifies that he had wound it at two in the afternoon, that it had run down before being put in the water, and had not been rewound.  (How did he know that, I wonder?)  Evidently you had to rewind your watch a lot, since they seem to think that means less than 24 hours.  Does it say how long in anyone's notes?

It was a pretty good trick on Crisparkle's part to spot the shirt pin stuck in the mud at the bottom.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #287 on: September 19, 2009, 01:26:42 PM »

Pat H-- "Among the mighty store of chains that are for ever forging, day and night, in the vast ironworks of time and circumstance, there was one chain forged in the moment of that small conclusion, riveted to the foundations of heaven and earth, and gifted with invincible force to hold and drag."

Yes, Dickens leaves a pretty big clue here.  Ned didn't tell Rosa about the ring, but Grewgious knows and would be able to identify it (if/when the body shows up--which it has to if you think about it).  He also knows all about the meeting he had with Ned.

Mr. Crisparkle knows about the diary.

Mr. Grewgious knows how Jasper reacted when he learned that Rosa and Ned were not to marry.

Heaven only knows what Datchery would uncover.

And then there's Durdles who knows about the midnight expedition.  (I'd like to know who hired him myself, Pat H.)

And Rosa can testify to how dreadful Jasper made her feel whenever he stared at her intently.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #288 on: September 19, 2009, 02:49:01 PM »
I've been wondering why Mr. Grewgious hasn't mentioned the fact that Edwin promised to return the ring to him when he came on Christmas Eve if he decided against going ahead with the wedding plans.  That seems to be a good reason for Edwin to  have stayed in Cloisterham until Mr. G. arrived.  But then, to whom would Grewgious have explained about the rather valuable ring?  I had concerns that he might tell Jasper, but Grewgious seems to suspect something is not right with Jasper, doesn't he?

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #289 on: September 19, 2009, 05:02:59 PM »
Looks like I won't be able to get another copy of the book before we finish but I did request and receive another pertaining to Drood, entitled, "The D Case or The Truth About The Mystery of Edwin Drood"  by Charles Dickens and Carlo Fruttero&Franco Lucentini. 
Advertised by the London Times supplement:  The greatest detectives in the world come up with a solution to the Mystery of Edwin Drood.  "Playfully brilliant," says the Times.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #290 on: September 19, 2009, 05:43:44 PM »
Question:  Why would Edwin have the jeweler wind and set his watch if he is expected to perform that task himself everyday?  Is Dickens getting ready to give us some more clues??
 
Isn't the time that the jeweler quotes, 20 minutes past 2, the same time on the watch found in the weir??

Deems asks how often one must wind a watch.  I remember my father telling me to wind my Mickey Mouse watch twice a day, but not all the way.  Anyone else get those instructions??

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #291 on: September 19, 2009, 05:48:03 PM »

Joan P--Yes, Grewgious has a lot going for him, despite being an angular man, and he did witness the spectacle of Jasper on the floor.  He knows enough not to speak to him about the ring. 

Anne--That sounds like a very interesting book you're going to look at.  Do you know the publication date?

For those of you who don't have the Penguin edition, there is interesting information in the Introduction: 

"John Forster, Dickens's first biographer learned the main details of the story, either from another letter, which no longer survives, or from Dickens's own lips.  What remains therefore we must accept as Forster's summary or paraphrase from an unidentified yet evidently authentic source.  In it we see an outline for the novel as definitive as the keel of a ship laid out in a dry dock.  In the chapter 'Last Book', Forster provides this account:

"The story  . . . was to be that of the murder of a nephew by his uncle; the originality of which was to consist in the review of the murderer's career by himself at the close, when its temptation were to be dwelt upon as if, not he the culprit, but some other man, were tempted.  The last chapters were to be written in the condemned cell, to which his wickedness, all elaborately elicited from him as if told of another, had brought him." 

I break off the quote here and will pick up the remainder of it later.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #292 on: September 19, 2009, 06:15:39 PM »
It looks like mechanical watches are supposed to be wound daily. See http://reviews.ebay.com/How-often-should-I-wind-my-watch_W0QQugidZ10000000004568839

Good question about why Edwin stops at the jeweler to get his watch wound if he supposedly does that himself each day. In addition to it being a plot point, Edwin was killing time before the dinner with Jasper and Neville. I think, since his watch had stopped, he needed the jeweler to set it as well as wind it since, presumably, Edwin didn't know the exact time since he was out and about.

Ann, I too have that same book from my library, with detectives from various works of fiction (Poirot, Hastings, Sherlock Holmes, Watson, Father Brown, etc) meeting at a conference, the purpose of which is to provide the endings to various books and pieces of music that were left unfinished. The book focuses on the group of detectives working on Dicken's last novel. The book was published in 1989.

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #293 on: September 19, 2009, 06:41:34 PM »
That's the one, Marcie.  And so we have in this book the mention of first detective in English literature, Bucket, who first appeared in "Bleak House".
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ALF43

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #294 on: September 19, 2009, 08:31:58 PM »
OK then, I am right on focus.  I've just caught up with all of your posts.

Maryal, are you saying that Dickens TOLD Forster of his ending?  How old is (was) this biographer? 
Quote
What remains therefore we must accept as Forster's summary or paraphrase from an unidentified yet evidently authentic source.
   Who would have given this to him?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #295 on: September 19, 2009, 08:56:03 PM »

Andy--I'm not sure how old Forster was, but he was working with Dickens on the biography.  The introduction explains that somehow--either from a letter we no longer have from Dickens or from Dickens in conversation, Forster got the outline of Drood.  OK, going to check on Forster.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From the Victorian Web's article on Charles Dickens:

"John Forster (1812-1876) An accomplished journalist, biographer, and historian, Forster was Dickens' best friend, literary advisor, and biographer. Forster proof-read nearly all of Dickens' works in progress. A man of great common sense, Forster provided the frequently impetuous Dickens sound personal, literary, and business advise. Dickens relied heavily on Forster to take care of business during his frequent trips away from London. Forster was also one of the players in Dickens' amateur acting troupe.

Forster was drama critic and later editor of the Examiner, putting him in the center of London literary life. After Dickens' death in 1870, Forster published The Life of Charles Dickens, drawn heavily on hundreds of letters from Dickens through the years and still the definitive Dickens biography although some facts about Dickens' life were suppressed. Forster also wrote biographys of Goldsmith, Defoe, and Swift among others."


Dickens lived from 1812-1870, so he and Forster were exact contemporaries.

ALF43

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #296 on: September 19, 2009, 09:20:39 PM »
hmm very interesting Deems.  He was a drama critic you say?  Perhaps he was insturmental in encouraging Dickens to "change" his genre of writing.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #297 on: September 19, 2009, 09:47:46 PM »

Love it Andy!  I've been looking for more information on Forster and just discovered that he also served on the "lunacy commission."  Hmmm, as you would say. 

Gumtree

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #298 on: September 20, 2009, 03:37:15 AM »
Hello again !  As you would guess I have fallen by the wayside and am well behind with the reading - MDH is rather ill and takes much of my time at present and indeed most of my concentration - though I am told and believe that better days lie ahead.

Have read the posts to the point where my reading stops and have gained much from the insights and information brought forward by everyone as well as the conjecture regarding who did what to whom and how.

I plan to catch up if I can but I fear I am destined never to succumb to the Dickens magic that grips so many of his readers.

Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

ALF43

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #299 on: September 20, 2009, 09:27:24 AM »
Gum- do not desert us! Dickens is funny, he really is.  We'll wait for you to catch up (you have one day.) ::)
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #300 on: September 20, 2009, 09:58:03 AM »
I'm considering what John Forster had to say about what Dickens confided in him, his longtime friend and recognized  official biographer.  Is there any reason to believe that Dickens would not have been honest with him about how he intended to finishe his novel?  I'd like to know WHEN he had that conversation with John Forster.  It seems he hadn't figured out the plot completely, as he wrote each episode. Had he even planned his big ending?  Was he still puzzling on the day he died about how to leave his readers?  

 I've read that Wilkie Collins was very angry with John Forster for the way in which he prepared and wrote his "Life of Charles Dickens," the two men (Forster and Dickens) were inseparable friends - and Wilkie and Dickens were on the outs at the end.  Elsewhere I read there was more criticism of Forster and his treatment of the Drood mystery in his rush to get out his biography.    Dickens' daughter Kate agreed with Forster.

If you ask me, Dickens hadn't yet worked out the grand ending - perhaps he even meant to leave it as a MYSTERY- wouldn't that be something?

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #301 on: September 20, 2009, 11:39:16 AM »
Quote
Chapter 16--"Devoted." Were you surprised that Crisparkle swam in the weir in December?

Surprised?  That's putting it mildly.  Wasn't that some scene up on the weir? (A weir - small dam.)  We already know that Crisparkle is in good physical condition- remember he's a boxer.  How old is he?  He lives with his mother - but she is quite elderly, isn't she?  Of course in Dickens time, 50 might be considered "elderly".  

But for a 30 year old man, give or take a few years, to take  off his clothes at the end of December and dive into icy water, well, this is quite a fete, isn't it? Almost superhuman. And then to keep diving after he finds the watch, looking for a body.   Also, consider how he came upon this weir.  He's climbed UP nearly two miles away from where others have searched.
Quote
"He had a strange idea, that something unusual hung about the place.  What was it  Where was it?"

Edwin took his watch to the jeweler to have it wound and set.  Annie, it does make sense that Edwin had simply let his watch run down and stopped in to have the jeweler reset the time...and rewind it.  2:20 - if the watch needed rewinding every 24 hours - and stopped at 2:20, was thrown into the water AFTER it had run down, we are told.  This indicates that the murderer had held on to the jewelry until Christmas day - in the afternoon, after it was discovered that Edwin had gone missing and everyone was out looking for him.

BUT, is this ALL the evidence we have that a murder has been committed? The wristwatch and the shirt pin? Crisparkle found NO BODY.  Until a body is found, I'm thinking that Dickens could come up with any number of reasons to explain away a murder at the end of his novel.  The name of the novel is NOT The Murder of Edwin Drood - but The Mystery of Edwin Drood.  I think Dickens was clever enough to do whatever he wanted at the end of his tale.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #302 on: September 20, 2009, 11:47:51 AM »
Ah Gum, bless you.  A difficult thing to see a loved one down, isn't it?  My thoughts and prayers go out to him and to you.  May his condition improve - faster than you expect!

I've been hunting for information on the Dickens'  biographer - I think there was much criticism of his biography when it came out - While hunting, I came across an interesting  resource on Drood - found in the National Library of Austalia? Do you know where that is?  Apparently there is much information in Australia on Dickens - there's a center for Dickens' studies.  I also learned that two of Dickens'  sons emigrated to Austalia.  Did you know that?
So glad you are with us, representing the Aussies, even if you are not now and may never become a Droodian!
Don't forget to take care of yourself, too...  

Hugs,
Joan

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #303 on: September 20, 2009, 12:48:09 PM »
Gum, I'm glad that you're still with us even if you haven't been able to keep up with the reading. I too hope that your loved one will regain health quickly.

JoanP, I am thinking somewhat along your lines. The novel was coming out in installments, so, theoretically, Dickens could revise his thinking on the ending chapters at any time before they were published.

The short biography that I saw on the History International channel and various sources on the Internet indicate that Dickens later novels were "darker" than those he wrote early in his life, due to the deaths of several of his relatives, including his father and a daughter in the early 1850s.

I don't think that Edwin was going to be found alive at the end of the story. For one thing, where would he be all this time? He wouldn't have left Rosa and others to worry about him and not contact them at all.


JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #304 on: September 20, 2009, 01:05:30 PM »
"I've read that Wilkie Collins was very angry with John Forster for the way in which he prepared and wrote his "Life of Charles Dickens," the two men (Forster and Dickens) were inseparable friends - and Wilkie and Dickens were on the outs at the end".

I can see the picture: Dickens' friends squabbling over his memory at the end. Two people who are friends of the same pwerson are not always friends of each other-- often there's some kind of rivalry.

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #305 on: September 20, 2009, 01:16:32 PM »
After years of wondering what a weir was, I finally saw a picture of one.

http://www.lakesarah.com/lakesarahpages/lakesarahpictures/weir/1976_5_06_lakesarahdam1.jpg

There's nothing in the picture to give an impression of size. It's a small dam in a river, whose purpose seems to be to keep something from coming upriver (large fish, boats?). I saw one on a TV program about the Loch Ness monster. The narrator tried to get upriver in a boat, to see if nessie could have done the same. The boat failed, so they concluded that Nessie couldn't have come that way.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #306 on: September 20, 2009, 01:38:18 PM »
Thanks, Joan, for thinking of looking for a picture of a weir. I've found another at http://images.clipartof.com/small/30615-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-Vintage-Victorian-St-Patricks-Day-Scene-Of-Irelands-Old-Weir-Bridge-In-Killarney-Circa-1910.jpg

When first introduced to us in Chapter 1, Mr. Crisparkle is noted as an avid swimmer:
 "Mr. Crisparkle, Minor Canon, fair and rosy, and perpetually
pitching himself head-foremost into all the deep running water in
the surrounding country
; Mr. Crisparkle, Minor Canon, early riser,
musical, classical, cheerful, kind, good-natured, social,
contented, and boy-like; Mr. Crisparkle, Minor Canon and good man,
lately 'Coach' upon the chief Pagan high roads, but since promoted
by a patron (grateful for a well-taught son) to his present
Christian beat; betakes himself to the gatehouse, on his way home
to his early tea."

Mr. Crisparkle is 35 years old. In the chapter when we meet his mother, there is a sentence:  "...her son, Minor Canon nevertheless, standing with bent head to hear it, he being within five years of forty..."

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #307 on: September 20, 2009, 03:51:59 PM »
I don't think that Edwin was going to be found alive at the end of the story. For one thing, where would he be all this time? He wouldn't have left Rosa and others to worry about him and not contact them at all.
Actually, before Deems quoted Forster's description of how "Drood" was going to end, I had come up with a very ingenious solution that would account for almost all of the facts, but leave Edwin alive.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #308 on: September 20, 2009, 04:18:19 PM »

Interesting conversation about Forster and his biography.  Joan P says, "I've been hunting for information on the Dickens'  biographer - I think there was much criticism of his biography when it came out."

I think the problem that the biography encountered and the criticism Forster received had to do with his use of so many of Dickens' letters which, of course, revealed private thoughts and feelings.  Dickens was pretty much a demigod before he died, and when the public found out that he was quite human indeed, they didn't like it.  So the biography got blamed for being what we now want a biography to be, truthful to the facts.  Because Forster was Dickens' best friend and trusted critic, he had many many letters from Dickens from which to glean information. 

Remember letters--that's what we did before email to keep in touch.

Joan K--Thank you for the weir!!  And there's another sentence I wouldn't have imagined writing.  I didn't know the word at all, but that's exactly what it is.  All we have to do is imagine it in December and it will be just right.  And thanks, Marcie, for the painting of a weir.

I went back this morning and reread the part at the end of Chapter 15 where Grewgious tells Jasper that the engagement has been broken.  Just as he is beginning the announcement, he notices Jasper, and we have this description, part of which I missed the first time around:

"Mr Grewgious saw a staring white face, and two quivering white lips, in the easy chair, and saw two muddy hands gripping its sides.  But for the hands, he might have thought he had never seen the face."

The part I missed before was the muddy hands.  We have seen Jasper looking white and quivery before, but those hands must have gotten muddy doing something or other, like manual labor, like burying a body. 

I don't know just how to read the last sentence.  Help is more than welcome.  What does "But for the hands, he mights have thought he had never seen the face" mean?

At the news of the broken engagement and of Grewgious' agreeing to break the news to Jasper because Ned didn't want to disappoint him, there are three short descriptions of Jasper's reaction, broken by the speeches of Grewgious.

"Mr Grewgious saw a ghastly figure rise, open-mouthed, from the easy chair, and lift its outspread hands towards its head."

. . .

"Mr Grewgious saw the ghastly figure throw back its head, clutch its hair with its hands, and turn with a writhing action from him."

. . .

"Mr Gregious heard a terrible shriek, and saw no ghastly figure, sitting or standing; saw nothing but a heap of torn and miry clothes upon the floor.

Pretty damning evidence, I think, especially those "torn and miry clothes" given that soon Crisparkle will find the evidence that is meant to be found (or maybe just removed from the body so that it will not be identified) in a weir.  And the muddy hands.  Jonathan has already mentioned that long black scarf that Jasper wore.

I don't think we were meant to wonder if a murder had been committed but rather to wonder what had brought Jasper to the point of killing his nephew.  The mysteries that are left for us are those of what happened to all the other characters and who did the discovering and who knew what and how did Jasper react in the end. 

It will be fascinating to see what Matthew Pearl does in The Last Dickens.  I hope everyone here will join in that discussion too.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #309 on: September 20, 2009, 04:37:49 PM »
I missed the "muddy" hands too, Deems! I thought that the hands gripping the chair were signs of upset that Grewgious noticed. "But for the hands, he mights have thought he had never seen the face." But now that you've noted that the hands were muddy and his clothes torn and miry (muddy/swampy), those seem like big clues that Jasper was up to something just before Grewgious found him at home.

PatH, I'd love to hear your storyline regarding Edwin.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #310 on: September 20, 2009, 04:39:17 PM »

Pat H--I missed your message.  I for one would love to hear how all the evidence could be accounted for and leave Edwin alive!  Please tell us.  I'm not very good at figuring out mysteries.

Marcie--I'm glad you missed it too.  There are abundant reasons for rereading anything complicated, aren't there?

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #311 on: September 20, 2009, 06:03:02 PM »
I feel as if I'm jumping the gun talking about conclusions to Dickens'  novel before we're finished discussing  what he did write, but for what it's worth, here's an article on Lady Audley's Secret - a novel Dickens would have been familiar with -

Quote
As Editor-in-Chief of All the Year Round, Dickens closely followed the serial fiction market, and undoubtedly would have been aware that Braddon was publishing Lady Audley's Secret in The Sixpenny Magazine on a monthly basis from January through December 1862. After Tinsley Brothers published it in volume form as a triple-decker in October 1862 (thereby scooping the ending in the serial), Braddon's novel was serialised again, from 21 March 1863 through 15 August 1863, with twenty-two illustrations (one per weekly instalment), culminating with "The Wanderer Returned at Last," the reunion of the protagonist, the attorney Robert Audley, and the supposedly murdered first husband of Lady Audley, George Talboys (Vol. 38, no. 966, part 22). The novel, also adapted for the stage in 1863, must have come to Dickens's attention by the time he began writing The Mystery of Edwin Drood.

Although The Mystery of Edwin Drood does not offer its readers the forbidden delights of the bigamy plot originated by Braddon, it does involve the disappearance and presumed murder of one of its central characters; further, the reader is reasonably assured of the murderer's identity and, of course, is consistently led to believe that a murder has taken place, and the body cleverly disposed of by the perpetrator, who, though possibly insane, is certainly a criminal mastermind when its comes to murder and deception
 Braddon's solution in Lady Audley's Secret, may well be one that Dickens had in mind when he and Collins collaborated on the initial wrapper. In essence, Lady Audley erroneously believes that she has fatally shot her first husband, George Talboys, and that his body is safely disposed of in a well on the Audley estate. In fact, however, George had been rescued from the well by the brutish but devious publican, Luke Marks (who is married to Lady Audley's maid, Phoebe), and is out of the country. The novel (and its dramatic adaptation of 1863) concludes with the return of George Talboys from New York. Many believe that the figure at the bottom of the Drood wrapper in the Tyrolian hat is Edwin himself rather than Helen in disguise. If so, then Dickens was, at least initially, thinking of resolving Drood's disappearance in a similar manner, bringing him back from abroad to confront his would-be murderer in the crypt of the cathedral.
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dickens/drood/braddon.html

Just a reminder - We don't have a body!  Dickens could have ended his story any way he wanted!

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #312 on: September 20, 2009, 06:17:43 PM »


Joan P is correct.  We don't have a body.  We also don't seem to have an Edwin.  But we will, next week, consider other possibilities, such as Pat H's solution that doesn't involve the death of Edwin.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #313 on: September 20, 2009, 07:45:51 PM »
I was busy sawing up bamboo all afternoon, and now have so much to say that it won't all get done tonight, but here goes.

I didn't miss the muddy hands, but didn't know what to make of it.  The whole description of Jasper here is almost surreal, very effective, but you can't take details literally.  ("a lead-colored face...on its surface dreadful starting drops or bubbles, as if of steel."  "saw nothing but a heap of torn and miry clothes upon the floor.")  I looked back, and saw that this scene takes place late the day after the dinner, when everyone has been dragging through pools and streams for hours.  Jasper would have been part of this effort, and have gotten muddy in the process.  If he hadn't joined in, he would certainly have cleaned himself by then.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #314 on: September 20, 2009, 08:04:38 PM »
I'm still reading the library book I started with (the perfume has aired out enough so I don't choke anymore) and I've gotten rather fond of it.  It was published in 1950, 40% of the way back from now to when the book was written, good paper, sewn, original dust jacket, and an introduction by Michael Innes (detective story writer/literature prof) which will no doubt be useful when I read it.

It also has the illustrations by Sir Luke Fildes, and the one at the head of this discussion page has the title "Mr. Grewgious has his Suspicions".  If that's the original title, it's a further clue to Dickens' intentions, since no suspicions have been mentioned in the text at this point.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #315 on: September 20, 2009, 08:22:20 PM »

PatH--Drat.  Bubble burst.  Told you I wasn't good at mysteries.  I almost never figure them out; when I do, I figure it's a fluke.  You're right.  The time is not right.  Grrrrrrrr.

Yes, the original illustrations all have titles and this one is "Mr Grewgious has his suspicions.  Fildes worked closely with Dickens on the illustrations.  He was a new illustrator for Dickens, a young man.

ALF43

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #316 on: September 20, 2009, 09:00:13 PM »
ok I am well aware that my mental status has been questionable, to say the least lately -but will someone please look and confirm the fact that Chapter XX111 entitled The Dawn Again, is the very last chapter of this mystery, before Mr. Dickens retired and went to join his ancestors?

I'm reading away tonight and all of the sudden, thinking that I am starting part two of this story I retire to the bedroom with my book and start reading about Master Humphrey's Clock.  
How nice, I think, one more character called Master Humphrey.
Apparently this is a lesser-known story of Dickens because I have no idea who these people are.  Now I've followed Edwin, Rosa, Mr. Crispsparkle, et. al and up pops Master Humphrey all of a sudden!

Comically I sat up and started shaking the bloody, damned book thinking that Amazon had gyped me.
What the h***?  They've left out the rest of the story.

 Before I panic I have but one question--  Is that all there is?  XX111 chapters??? ???
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #317 on: September 20, 2009, 09:28:24 PM »
Confirmed

That's all in my book.

ALF43

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #318 on: September 20, 2009, 09:32:29 PM »
eeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk, Pat.
I'd like to resurrect him, myself.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #319 on: September 20, 2009, 09:53:58 PM »
We don't even know he would be able to tell us, since he mightnot have settled on his ending.