Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online

[Deems]

The Mystery of Edwin Drood - by Charles Dickens

Had Dickens lived to complete "The Mystery of Edwin Drood," his 15th novel would have been one of his major accomplishments, say many of his critics. The novel was scheduled to be published in twelve installments  from April 1870 to March 1871. Only six of the installments were completed before Dickens's death in 1870, which left the mystery half finished. "The ideal mystery is one you would read if the end was missing," writes Richard Chandler, creator of Philip Marlowe. Reading and discussing an unfinished mystery is a unique experience, especially when shared with a group. Will we agree with the critics, or go mad trying to figure out what he intended for the young engaged couple introduced at the start of the book?  And what has become of young Edwin Drood? Help us track down clues as we read along ... and then we'll each propose our own ending during the last few days of the discussion.

Chapter discussion schedule September 1-6: 1-6 September 7-13: 7-12 September 14-20: 13-18 September 21-27: 19-23 This unfinished mystery is available in several places on the Internet at no cost but you might want to purchase the book or borrow it from your library, in order to read one of the editions, such as the Penguin Classics, that has useful footnotes.

Questions for your consideration this week: Chapters 19-23

1.   Chapter 19--Shadow on the Sun-Dial--what is the significance of the title?

2.  What is Jasper willing to sacrifice for Rosa?  Were you surprised by his declaration of love?  Was Rosa?

3.  Chapter 20--A Flight.  Is it a good idea for Rosa to go to Mr. Grewgious?  Does he seem less "angular" and "dry" now that we've seen more of him?

4.  Chapter 21--A Recognition.  Mr Tartar has a history, it seems.  What do you think Dickens might have planned for him?  How old is he?

5.  Chapter 22--A Gritty State of Things Comes on.  Can you picture Tartar's home and the conversation between Rosa and Helena Landless?  Which parts of the description stand out?

6.  Why does Billickin object to signing the lease with her Christian name?

7.  Are the Billickin and Miss Twinkleton worthy opponents?

8.  Why does Miss Twinkleton expurgate all the love scenes when reading to Rosa?

9.  Chapter 23--The Dawn Again.  Did you notice the shift back to present tense early in the chapter?

10.  Why does the Princess Puffer follow Jasper from London to Cloisterham?

See the previous questions and related links.

Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

[marcie]

Good points, everyone, about Rosa. The other girls seem to dote on Rosa. She seems to be the pretty, petite baby doll of the seminary. Everyone's way of treating her might make it difficult (unnecessary) for her to grow up. I agree, PatH, that she is trying to avoid facing her fate.

 I don't think that she is attracted to Jasper. I think she is afraid of him.

PatH, Thanks for the info about the Dorothy Sayers mystery with possible poisoning by Turkish delight.

[Deems]

I agree with Marcie about Rosa being afraid of Jasper.  She urges Edwin to hurry when she hears the music from the cathedral, knowing that the service will soon be over and that the various clergymen and Jasper will be leaving.  She must see a good deal of him because he is her music teacher--Jasper and Edwin discuss what progress she is making in her lessons.

I keep wanting to call Miss Twinkleton, MissTwinkletoes.  She does have another life, separate from her dignified schoolmarm persona.  At night she spruces up, enjoys the gossip of the town, and generally would be unrecognizable to the girls should they ever see her.

I also love the description of the first part of Edwin and Rosa's meeting where first Miss Twinkleton and later Mrs. Tisher appear in the room ostensibly to recover a needed item but actually to keep a close watch on the young couple lest anything disreputable be going on.  The scene makes me laugh because when I was in college, we had a house mother who must have gotten her daily exercise by circumambulating the living room and the smaller alcoves which had couches.  Here young women were allowed to talk with young men as long as they kept BOTH FEET on the FLOOR.  Being a relaxed person who more than once had a leg up on the couch, I was told more than once that I must rearrange myself. 

I agree that Rosa is the special pet of Miss Twinkletoes' school.  The other girls are jealous of her having a caller.  Edwin is allowed to see her only because they are engaged.  Other young men who might know some of the girls are not allowed to come.  What wonderful irony--the girls all envy Rosa and she envies them their freedom. 

[marcie]

LOL, Deems. Yes, the chaperoning scenes, with Miss Twinkleton having to come up with excuses for being in the room, were funny. Even though it must have been the custom not to have a girl/woman alone with a boy/man during Dickens era, he can still get amusement from the contrivance of a chaperone. I love your story about the requirement of having both feet on the floor!

[Gumtree]

Yes, Rosa is definitely afraid of Jasper - I think he gives her the 'creeps' but it is more than that and possibly the first indication of Rosa being something more than a silly young thing. I thought the 'apron over the head' was too ridiculous - why didn't she fall down the stairs or something.
Of course Edwin and Rosa both feel irritated by their arranged engagement - Edwin regrets not being able to sow a few wild oats or at least to play the field and Rosa would like the experience of being feted by eligible young men. They like each other very much but would prefer the freedom to make their own choices.
I don't see Rosa as Natasha - Natasha was younger and her behaviour seemed right while Rosa's doesn't - but maybe that's just my Dickens prejudice.

Miss Twinkleton's evening persona where she loves to gossip with her friend, Mrs Tisher and relive the highlights of her past is the reflection of the true woman. She really isn't the repressive school marm her 'girls' see-I have the distinct impression that Miss Twink didn't always keep both of her feet on the floor.
I loved the line where Mrs Tisher's husband was generally believed to have been a 'hairdresser' - sounds like a musical comedy -My Fair Lady or something from Gilbert and Sullivan.

I used to love Turkish Delight - it was quite popular here when I was a 'sweet young thing' but one can't eat a lot of it - one of my sons once gave me a large box of the stuff - he got it from a friend of Turkish descent whose mother made it from an old genuine recipe for the Turkish restaurants -  there was nothing 'gluey and gelatinous' about it....It was delicious and unlike anything I'd tasted before but there was lots of it and wow! was it sweet!

[Deems]

Gum--You make Turkish Delight sound like something that I would love and must stay away from.  It's yet another exotic element--candy from abroad--that so fascinated Dickens and his fellow Englishmen at a time when the Empire was at its height.  The sun never set on the British Empire at the time.  

The Landless twins are described as having "darker" skin and are themselves exotic.  They are from "abroad," have no relatives, and share an uncanny knowledge of what the other thinks.

Let's discuss Mr. Sapsea and Durdles today and tomorrow since it is almost time to move on to the next set of chapters.  Sapsea is a terribly self-important man, the town auctioneer, who married late in life to a woman who "looked up" to him.  Poor Ethelinda has left this world and gone to what is I hope a far happier one away from Mr. Sapsea.

Durdles fascinates me.  He is, in some ways, the most Dickensian of the characters we have met so far, very much an individual.  One of Dickens' talents as a writer was his ability to make even his minor characters come alive, as Durdles does for me.  I think I'd recognize him on the street.

And what about YOU.  Let's look at the last few chapters.

[PatH]

Marcie, Deems, and Gumtree, I'm sure you're right about Rosa being afraid of Jasper; that fits better with her reluctance to be around when he comes out of the Cathedral than my theory (which was that she didn't want to meet the man she was starting to get fond of while she was with her fiance).  The night before, Jasper gave Edwin a warning.  Edwin took it to mean not to follow Jasper's bad example of turning to drugs because of his dissatisfaction with life, but he was obviously misunderstanding.  The warning more likely means that Jasper is going to satisfy his ambition by taking Rosa away from Edwin, presumably thus getting hold of whatever fortune she has too.

Gumtree, I obviously had a substandard batch of Turkish Delight--it was never popular around here, and I've only tried it once.  I need to find someone with a traditional recipe.

[marcie]

I think that the Durdles character is very interesting and funny. His arrangement with the boy, Deputy, to throw stones at him until he heads for home, is unique. He's got a special skill of being able to tell, by tapping with his hammer,  what's walled in beneath the cathedral. He has a dignity about him. He isn't taken in by Sapsea.

[Gumtree]

No, Durdles isn't taken in by Sapsea - I wonder who would be.

 Interesting that in a way Durdles is giving Deputy a purpose in life by getting the youngster to hurl stones at him for money and under an arrangement whereby he must warn Durdles first - rather than Deputy just throwing stones at everything that moves in a pointless and destructive way as he had been doing. Durdles has perhaps taken the boy under his wing.

I must say that I didn't care for Dickens' description of Deputy as being 'hideous' when in fact all I can see is that he is merely poor and uncared for. Does being poor, dirty and dressed in rags make a child hideous or simply neglected?  It may just be carelessness or haste on Dickens' part but he uses the word more than once.

Durdles is of uncertain temper andnever quite sober but he knows his trade - loved the part where he measured Sapsea's words and says 'it will come in to an eighth of an inch'  - just imagine carving the monument stone and running out of space halfway through a word - reminded me of the old sewing samplers where the line spacing has been miscalculated and a word is split and continued on the line below.

[Deems]

Halloa, GUM!!  We are both awake at the same time.  Excitement!  Dickens may have used "hideous" to describe Deputy the street urchin, but he had great sympathy for such street Children.  He has one in Bleak House, name of Jo, who comes in the plot quite frequently.  Jo is treated with great sympathy though the description of him is much like the one of Deputy.  Did you notice that all the boys who work as man servant at the Travellers' Twopenny are called "Deputy"?  Poor little fellow doesn't even have a name to himself.

The footnote tells us that the Travellers' Twopenny was "a cheap lodging place providing shelter for a few pence.  Such houses were characteristically crowded, unsanitary, afflicted with rats, and without adequate washing facilities."

I guess all the little Deputies picked up whatever odd jobs they could at the Twopenny.  This particular one is lucky to have a job with Durdles, who sometimes forgets to go home.

[Deems]

In chapter 6 we make the acquaintance of the very large and very loud Luke Honeythunder.  He works at the "Haven of Philanthropy" of which a footnote tells us:

"The target of Dickens's satire is Exeter Hall in the Strand, London, a purpose-built convention centre which opened in 1831.  This 'temple' of philanthropy with its 'votaries' and 'priesthood' seated 4000 delegates, and from May to June it served as the venue for the annual meetings of England's many charitable organizations.  While Dickens himself worked energetically on behalf of various good causes, philanthropy  combined with arrogance and hypocrisy angered him.  'It might be laid down as a very good general rule of social and political guidance, that whatever Exeter Hall champions, is the thing by  no means to be done' (The Niger Expedition, Examiner, 19 August 1848)."

[marcie]

Yes, Gum. Durdles has given Deputy an "enlightened object" at which to throw stones rather than aimlessly stoning everything in sight.

I agree, Deems, that Deputy isn't portrayed unsympathetically. He probably did look hideous with missing teeth and dressed in rags. He probably never had a bath in his life.

[marcie]

Deems, apparently there were Philanthropic Societies during Dickens time. Dickens characterizes a professional philanthropist such as Luke Honeythunder as someone who was more talk than action, and what actions he did take were not in the best interest of those he professed to be helping. Dickens is a great revealer of hypocrisy.

[PatH]

With Sapsea and Durdles we see another characteristic Dickens trick.  He makes his minor characters memorable not only by their names (I bet you can't think of another author who would name a character Durdles) but also by some hallmark characteristics of appearance or mannerism that tend to be mentioned a lot.  Sapsea has a trick of "a certain gravely flowing action with his hands, as if he were presently going to Confirm the individual with whom he holds discourse.  Durdles is white with stone dust, has all sorts of special pockets, including one for the always present 2-foot rule, and is never seen without the small bundle holding his dinner.  He goes aroud tapping at everything, and discovering hidden graves everywhere.

[Deems]

If it's OK with everyone, I'll wait until tomorrow to move on to the next chapters (7-12).  It is Labor Day, and I have some labor to do for school as well as some fun to wedge in. 

There's something about Durdles that I like.  Yes, PatH, he is a minor character, but he comes to life for me because I can see him (you mention the stone dust all over him as well as all the pockets and the dinner bundle) and because I admire his skill in locating dead bodies even when they have moldered away to just bones.  Did you notice that he mentions National education, asking Jaspers if he is in favor? 

A footnote tells us:  "Until the Education Act of 1870 introduced secular rate-supported elementary schools, England and Wales lacked a national system of education, the development of which had been slowed by religious conflicts over the state's role.  Schooling depended instead on voluntary efforts organized principally by religious, philanthropic and private bodies."

A snippet from Dickens' personal experience indicates how he must have felt about education.  When he was a boy and his father was sent to Marshalsea Prison for debt, Charles worked at the Warrens Blacking Factory to help the family.  When his father was released, his mother wanted him to continue working there, but his father intervened and Dickens went to a day school in London for three years.   He puts the blacking factory into David Copperfield and a family's experience at Marshalsea into Little Dorrit.

Dickens knew from his own experience the suffering and helplessness of children.

[Jonathan]

'He goes aroud tapping at everything, and discovering hidden graves everywhere.'

Has this become a hobby of his? The  cathedral complex certainly offers Durdles lots of scope to practice his activity. The place sounds like a huge charnel house, with someone buried in every  nook and cranny for a thousand years and more. Perhaps Durdles will be tapped before too long to find a missing body. After all, Jasper does wonder about Durdles' 'remarkable accuracy with which you would seem to find out where people are buried.'

And why Jasper's peculiar interest in Durdles expertise? Makes the rounds in the crypt with Durdles. Is Jasper looking for an accomplice in some ghoulish activity in which there will be a need to hide a body?

And just to lighten the gloom down in the crypt, Dickens throws in this bit of humor. But suppress the laughter. It's not fitting in this place.

'Is there anything new down in the crypt, Durdles?' asks John Jasper.

'Anything old, I think you mean,' growls Durdle. 'It ain't a spot for novelty.'

[Deems]

Well lookee there, it's Jonathan!!   Welcome, Jonathan, and thank you for typing in Durdles' little joke.  He's a dusty, stony old man who likes to keep himself well-fortified with whatever is in his dinner bundle (he's never seen without it) and a little something to drink in his bottle. 

Today we move to our second set of six chapters.  When we get to the end, we will be at the end of the third installment of the novel as it was originally published.  You can expect that we will have something of a cliffhanger since Dickens wanted his readers to look forward to--and come back to--his next installment.

But first we must contemplate the evening entertainment around the piano with John Jasper playing while his pupil sings.  See illustration above.  See if you can you pick out all the characters, including the "china shepherdess"  (Mrs. Crisparkle, the good canon's mother). 

[PatH]

I can't move on without laughing at Mr. Honeythunder.  Crisparkle says "It is a most extraordinary thing that these philanthropists are always denouncing somebody.  And it is another most extraordinary thing that they are always so violently flush of miscreants!"

Honeythunder is an extreme version of a type we all know--so sure they are right, so completely unaware of what people are really like or what they are thinking, the eternal wet blanket.  Heaven help the victims of their benevolence!

[marcie]

I'm glad you've joined the discussion, Jonathan. I agree with you that Jasper has an ulterior motive for hanging out with Durdles. Since no one but Durdles frequents the crypts below the cathedral, it would be a good place for a dasterdly dead and/or the covering up of one.

[PatH]

The picture: a few clues from the book (Drood is holding the fan, etc) make it pretty certain who's who.  From left to right: Neville Landless, John Jasper (at the piano), Rosa Bud (farther back), Helena Landless (you see all of her), Miss Twinkleton, Edwin Drood (standing, with the fan), Mr. Crisparkle (seated), and Mrs. Crisparkle (almost out of the picture).

Neville and Helena have distinctly darker complexions than the others.  This is more obvious in my book, where the pictures are darker and the lines more detailed.

[marcie]

Good job on the illustration, Pat. I concur. Miss Twinkleton looks just like her name :-)

[Deems]

It looks like PatH has identified the persons in "At the Piano."  I love illustrations in books--too bad they have almost disappeared.  I especially appreciate illustrations that show that the artist has actually read the passage and correctly placed the people as Fildes seems to do throughout.  And, yes, Neville and Helena are slightly darker than the others.  They spent all that time in Ceylon and must be tanned.  Or perhaps we are to wonder about their actual parentage.  

I too find Honeythunder humorous.  His very presence makes it necessary for the others at dinner to find all manner of reasons that he must get going in order not to miss the omnibus.  The man holds forth at dinner and no one else can get a word in edgewise.  One wonders how Neville came to be attracted to Rosa at all.  Perhaps there were some small side-conversations that Dickens does not report.  Or maybe she's just so darn cute that any young man would be smitten.

OK, folks, who would like to jet on over to my house to help me grade the first set of papers from my two classes?  I still have more than half a class to go and have promised to get them back tomorrow.  Tomorrow itself is a horror, one of our "early schedule" days involving beginning an hour early and running all six periods back to back.  This means that first period, normally at 7:55 will begin at 6:55.  These short weeks are usually something to look forward to, but this one is turning mean at the end.

[PatH]

And, yes, Neville and Helena are slightly darker than the others.  They spent all that time in Ceylon and must be tanned.  Or perhaps we are to wonder about their actual parentage.  

Yes, I think we are meant to suppose that Neville and Helena are of mixed blood.  They are "very dark, and very rich in colour...something untamed about them both...."   Elsewhere, Neville refers to his own "tigerish blood", and Edwin's final insult to him in their quarrel is a pretty direct reference to it.

This affects our predictions of the plot.  Neville is in love with Rosa, but by the conventions of most writers then, he is not going to get to marry her.  Even if he turns out to be very noble and honorable, the most he can hope for is to make some noble sacrifice to secure her happiness with someone else.

[marcie]

Deems, I don't envy your teaching schedule today. Six periods back to back, starting at 6:55!

This affects our predictions of the plot.  Neville is in love with Rosa, but by the conventions of most writers then, he is not going to get to marry her.  Even if he turns out to be very noble and honorable, the most he can hope for is to make some noble sacrifice to secure her happiness with someone else.

Oh, I hadn't thought through the mixed race issue. You're probably right, Pat, about the prospects for Neville and Rosa. Maybe that is part of why he is so violently upset with Edwin Drood for taking Rosa for granted.

When describing Rosa's relationship with the other girls and everyone else at Miss Twinkleton's seminary for girls, Dickens says that she is spoiled only to the extent of expecting the type of kindness that is always shown to her. He says something like she has true affection for others so is not just a pretty doll.

[marcie]

Dickens believed in mesmerism and he himself learned to use hypnosis to try to heal family and friends who were ill.

Somehow this seems related to me in the psychic ties that he presents in this novel. Helena and Neville have some kind of mysterious telepathic power where they share each other's thoughts and feelings. Jasper stares intently at various people throughout the novel in a sinister way and sometimes smiles afterward in a creepy way. Rosa confesses to Helena that she feels that Jasper has invaded her thoughts and can overpower her even when he is not present.

I think that the "Jasper face" adds a strong element of foreboding and scariness to the novel.

[Gumtree]

I'm in a situation akin to Deems - too much to do and no time to post -
will come in tomorrow (she says hopefully)

BTW Perhaps we should remember that Neville and Helena are twins which could account for their telepathic rapport.

[marcie]

Gum, I have heard the theory that twins have ESP.

[PatH]

BTW Perhaps we should remember that Neville and Helena are twins which could account for their telepathic rapport.

Gum, I have heard the theory that twins have ESP.

Yes, Gumtree and Marcie, you're quite right.  As soon as Neville said "You don't know, sir, yet, what a complete understanding can exist between my sister and me, though no spoken word--perhaps hardly as much as a look--may have passed between us.", I thought "Oh, goody, another story with the psychic closeness of twins".  I love stories with the psychic closeness of twins, even though I don't think there's anything to it.

Judging from my own experience, though twins are often on the same wavelength and can guess what the other is thinking, it's not any sort of ESP, just much shared experience and outlook and familiarity.  The same sort of thing occurs with some couples who have been happily married for a long time.

[Jonathan]

What is Dickens trying to say with this strange tale? Is he, for example, trying to depict  the tragedy of an arranged marriage? Or why the mystery of Edwin Drood? There are at least half a dozen other characters who are more mysterious than this bright, uncomplicated young man, about whom Jasper says:

'Look at him, see how he lounges so easily...the world is all before him where to choose. A life of stirring work and interest, a life of change and excitement, a life of domestic ease and love! Look at him!' Ch8

Of course Jasper is envious. Perhaps even jealous. But isn't everybody jealous of  Drood over the beautiful Rosa? Certainly Neville, to the point of thinking murder. And now, in Chapter XI, we find Grewgious, speechless as usual, but nevertheless exclaiming:

'Lord bless me...I could draw a picture of a true lover's state of mind, to night....' and does so most convincingly. He's in love with Rosa! Well it was her mother, actually, years earlier. ('Good God, how like her mother she has become!')

Grewgious is in posession of the ring that came off the dead finger of Rosa's mother. He's reluctant to part with it. Can there be any doubt that he himself would like to put it on Rosa's finger? He wants it returned if for any reason Drood is unsuccessful in that marriage rite.

How jealous Grewgious was of Rosa's father, when he lost the woman he loved. And now, he still wonders...'whether he (Rosa's father) ever so much as suspected that someone doted on her, at a hopeless, speechless distance, when he struck in and won her. I wonder whether it ever crept into his mind who that unfortunate someone was!...I wonder whether I shall sleep tonight!'

Poor bewildered Grewgious. 'And if I do not  clearly express what I mean by that, it is either for the reason that having no conversational  powers, I cannot express what I mean, or that having no meaning, I do not mean what I fail to express. Which, to the best of my  belief, is not the case.' What a sorry wooer he must have been.

What strange relationships in this tale. Even Grewgious has his seeming nemesis, his control. The 'fabulous Familiar,' Bazzard, the 'pale, puffy-faced, dark-haired person of thirty, with big dark eyes that wholly wanted lustre...this attendant was a mysterious being, possessed of some strange power over Mr. Grewgious.'

[Deems]

Thanks Marcie and PatH and Gum and Jonathan for keeping the fire smoldering around here.  I'm particularly concerned about whether or not (and we will never know, I fear) Neville and Helena are actually of mixed race or if Dickens has just given them slightly darker skin to make them more exotic.  Their deceased mother could have been Spanish, for example.  Their parents are, however, conveniently dead and though Neville tells of his harsh treatment at the hands of guardians, we get no information about their lineage. 

If there were any suggestion that they were of mixed race, would Mr. Crisparkle (our representative of what was known at the time as "muscular Christianity") agree to take Neville on as a tutee?  And would they be entertained socially?  I think that maybe they are a little darker--and Neville somewhat "tigerish" simply to make them more foreign and exotic.  But who knows?

Jonathan calls out attention to Mr. Grewgious, for whom I admit I have great admiration.  The poor man says he has no imagination and has to make lists in order to remember what topics he needs to discuss with Rosa, dutifully crossing them off as he attends to each, but I find something about lovable about him.  Perhaps it is his kindness--and yes, we find out that once he fell in love with Rosa's mother so he has a bit of the romantic in him.  Of course he never dared to actually approach the woman and make an offer. 

It does seem that he hates giving up the ring, not because of its monetary value but because the beloved wore it until her death.  For him it's a precious keepsake (and Lord of the Rings just ran through my head.  Remember the scene when Gollum is calling the ring his "Precious"--I loved Gollum who had a real split personality, good Gollum and bad Gollum.)

And yes, Jonathan, isn't Bazzard, the clerk, an amazing character?  Grewgious seems to feel that he must be kept happy all the time though he clearly is not the happy type.  Another instance of Grewgious having a heart.

So many characters, and so interesting.  Never mind whatever the mystery is, I wonder what use Dickens would have made of some of them had he lived to write the second half of the book.

I especially wonder what he might have done with Helena since she seems to be stable enough to keep Neville in line as well as being a confidante--and rather quickly--of young Rosa.  And then there's Rosa herself--what would become of her?

I'd like Grewgious to have some sort of happy ending (remember we are endingless) and it would be nice if Mr. Crisparkle found a bride.  He's a good man, kind, a good teacher who takes Neville under his wing and not only instructs him but tries to teach him how to control himself.  He's also wonderfully sweet to his mother, the China shepherdess, pretending that he can't read letters and allowing her (she's proud of her keen eyesight)  to read aloud to him.  He even wears glasses which are of no use to him so that she will believe he has trouble reading without them.

Sorry for all the rambling.  This is what I am like after a day like today.  Not very good at self-editing when tired.  Good at running on and on though.

And so to bed.

[marcie]

Jonathan, I agree that there are several strange characters. Bazzard is very odd, as is his relationship with Grewgious, who seems to defer to him. I, too, like Grewgious. Even though he doesn't have the social graces, he takes his duties very seriously. He let's Rosa know that the wishes of her and Edwin's fathers for them to marry are not binding if they don't want the marriage for themselves. Even though Grewgious says he has no sentiment, I too think that he has a sentimental attachment to the ring that belonged to Rosa's mother, whom he loved from a distance.

Deems, I think your thoughts about the race Neville and Helena are important. I too want Mr. Crisparkle to find a bride and he seems very well suited to Helena.  You raise the issue in my mind of what would be the point of Neville's studying with Crisparkle if Neville wasn't to be considered a gentleman by society.

[ANNIE]

I googled "Ceylon" and found that the citizens of that country are of deep brown color.  If Neville and Helena are citizens, then they would be of dark color.  There are many Indian citizens in that country also and the twins' skin color might come from that part of the country's citizen.

Do we ever learn why their parents were living in Ceylon??  Were they part of that English group?  The country was ruled by Great Britian in early years.

[Jonathan]

It seems to me that Helena and Neville Landless were children of the Raj, that system of British imperialism as it related to India and Ceylon. Children of a mixed marriage, children without a country. Their father probably was a white, English administrator or soldier, while their native mother supplied the color. Stepfather was probably native and the cause of the childrens' resentments and bitterness. It seems to me the reader has to imagine many of the details on why these two feel cheated out of half their inheritance. Both provide a few clues in Chap VII, with their 'confidences':

'I (Neville) have had, sir, from my earliest years remembrance, to suppress a deadly and bitter hatred. This has made me secret and revengeful. I have been always tryrannically held down by the strong hand....I have been stinted of education, liberty, money, dress, the very necessaries of life, the commonest pleasures of childhood, the commonest posessions of youth, or remembrances, or good instincts....'

A few pages later, Helena is confiding to Rosa:

'I am a neglected creature, my dear, unacquainted with all accomplishments, , sensitively conscious that I have everything to learn, and deeply ashamed to own my ignorance.'

There's a tragedy somewhere in all this, a fallout perhaps of the glorious empire days. Suspected of still having something of the tiger in them by some, they nevertheless make a fine impression on Mr. Crisparkle:

'An unusually handsome lithe young fellow, and an unusually handsome lithe girl; much alike; both very dark, and very rich in colour; she of almost the gipsy type; something untamed about them both; a certain air upon them of hunter and huntress; yet withal a certain air of being the objects of the chase...slender, supple, quick of eye and limb; half shy, half defiant; fierce of look; an indefinable kind of expression...' are they going to pounce, or retreat for cover?

It wasn't alway easy to be a colonial in the empire days. I believe this is Dickens supplying a bit of commentary on same.

[marcie]

Those are plausable ideas, Jonathan, on why Neville and Helena grew up in Ceylon. Their mother died when they were little children and they lived with a step-father until he died and made them wards of Mr. Honeythunder. As to their race, on their first evening with Mr. Crisparkle Neville says to him. "I have been brought up among abject and servile dependents, of an inferior race, and I may easily have contracted some affinity with them. Sometimes, I don't know but that it may be a drop of what is tigerish in their blood."

Neville doesn't identify himself as from a race of a lower society but says he may have been influenced by the people he grew up with and THEIR tigerish blood.

There was a big coffee trade in Ceylon during the 1800s and many ex-British patriots lived there. It's possible, as you say, that Neville and Helena's father was British.

[PatH]

I agree with everyone that it's important to pin down Neville and Helena as well as we can.  I think they have to be of roughly similar class to the other main characters.  Honeythunder was a "friend or connexion" of their stepfather.  I doubt that either of them would have been accepted as students if they were not some sort of gentlefolk, or that they would have been accepted socially in the way they are.  Their parents were probably part of the mass of English involved in running and exploiting the Empire.

What about race?  Given the deplorable notions of the time, this is important.  When Neville is pouring his heart out to Mr. Crisparkle as they walk back from seeing Honeythunder off, he makes a statement I find frustrating:

"And to finish with, sir: I have been brought up among abject and servile dependants, of an inferior race, and I may easily have contracted some affinity with them.  Sometimes, I don't know but that it may be a drop of what is tigerish in their blood."
"As in the case of that remark just now," thought Mr. Crisparkle.  (Presumably, Neville's remark that he was almost ready to murder his stepfather).

Neville regards the natives as inferior to himself, but what does the underlined sentence mean?

[PatH]

Marcie, we were posting at the same time, on the same point.  I agree, they have to be mostly British, but one of their parents could still be of mixed blood.  To me the underlined sentence was somewhat obscure, and I was uncertain in what sense he had "contracted some affinity with them".

And Jonathan, I also didn't see your post while I was writing mine.  You two said it much better.

[marcie]

Pat and Jonathan, I think you are on the right track.

I think that the results of Neville's upbringing are as he describes: there are many deficiencies in his education and an underlying "me against the world" attitude and tendency to anger, revenge and physical confrontation. It's unclear to me whether Neville thought that he could actually "contract" the wild animal (tigerish) tendencies he describes as instinctual, "in the blood," of the lower social class people he grew up with, or whether he understood it was more of a metaphorical contraction--learned behavior on the part of all of them as a result of their cruel conditions. Neville acknowledges that his sister isn't like him in this way and he says to Mr. Crisparkle that his upbringing "has caused me to be utterly wanting in I don't know what emotions, or remembrances, or good instincts--I have not even a name for the thing..."

Neville is likely confused and ambivalent about the causes of his volatile feelings and lack of self-control.

[marcie]

Neville has told Crisparkle that it's good that his stepfather died when he did or he might have killed him for his cruelty to his sister.

I think that Dickens is setting up Neville with possible motives for doing away with Edwin Drood and/or giving others (including Jasper) ammunition for pointing to Neville if anything happens to Drood and eliciting reasonable doubt about his innocence.

But that Jasper sure seems guilty to me. Are all of those things that Jasper appear to be doing, just red herrings? So far, I guess you could say that we're lead to believe that fishy or sinister things are going on with Jasper. Is there proof of anything?

[JoanK]

I find race in this very interesting. Of course I don't know what Dickens intended, but I want to give him credit and assume that he is introducing the subject, but so subtly that the reader can ignore it and still identify with the Landless's. At the least, he is introducing the subject of the stranger -- "not the stranger who is here today and gone tomorrow but the stranger who is here today and still here tomorrow" (Simmel). How do we deal with him, and he with us.

Interesting that Neville is "the stranger" from the very beginning, whereas Helena seems to be accepted from the very beginning.

Notice that Rosa, who is portrayed as such a child, when she needs to act, acts very sensibly -- first in finding out exactly what she needs to know about the arranged marraige, and later with Edwin.

I don't agree that Rosa's guardian is in love with rosa, except as a loving uncle might be. I thought I picked up vibes between him and Miss Twinkleton.

[Deems]

Thanks everyone for all the discussion.  You have given me much to think about.  What interesting comments about Neville and Helena.  I'm certain that Dickens had plans for them in the second half of the novel, especially for Helena.

Pat H--What with all this talk about there possibly being something tigerish in his blood, I wonder if Neville's rashness may be at least partially explained by the abuse he suffered as a child and his testosterone.  Helena seems to have survived better.  She was the one who organized their escapes when they were children.  She was also beaten and abused.  Dickens has reached a point in his life where he has come to appreciate strong women.  No more little Doras (David Copperfield) here.

Since their last name is Landless, an English name (see prior comment on Dickens' mistress), the father must have been British, serving in Ceylon for one of the reasons you all have suggested. 

Joan K--Yes, Rosa seems to have a little more inside her than the girlish, silly darling of the school.  Her actions are sensible, and she now knows that her marriage to Edwin is not written in stone.  There is a way out. 

Both twins have learned to be watchful--the hunter and huntress image.  Marcie--good point about Neville being a pupil of Crisparkle in order to take his place in society.  I wish I knew more about the acceptance of people with darker skins in Victorian England.  The Empire was far-flung, and certainly some children of the subordinated peoples did attend school in England.  I have a colleague that I can bother on Monday to see what other information I can glean.