Poll

What do you think happened to Edwin Drood?

Killed by Jasper
4 (36.4%)
Killed by Neville
0 (0%)
Killed by someone other than above
1 (9.1%)
Still alive
6 (54.5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online  (Read 68312 times)

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #320 on: September 20, 2009, 09:54:27 PM »
The Mystery of Edwin Drood - by Charles Dickens

Had Dickens lived to complete "The Mystery of Edwin Drood," his 15th novel would have been one of his major accomplishments, say many of his critics. The novel was scheduled to be published in twelve installments  from April 1870 to March 1871. Only six of the installments were completed before Dickens's death in 1870, which left the mystery half finished.

"The ideal mystery is one you would read if the end was missing," writes Richard Chandler, creator of Philip Marlowe. Reading and discussing an unfinished mystery is a unique experience, especially when shared with a group. Will we agree with the critics, or go mad trying to figure out what he intended for the young engaged couple introduced at the start of the book?  And what has become of young Edwin Drood? Help us track down clues as we read along ... and then we'll each propose our own ending during the last few days of the discussion.

Chapter discussion schedule
September 1-6: 1-6
September 7-13: 7-12
September 14-20: 13-18
September 21-27: 19-23

This unfinished mystery is available in several places on the Internet at no cost but you might want to purchase the book or borrow it from your library, in order to read one of the editions, such as the Penguin Classics, that has useful footnotes.

Questions for your consideration this week: Chapters 19-23

1.   Chapter 19--Shadow on the Sun-Dial--what is the significance of the title?

2.  What is Jasper willing to sacrifice for Rosa?  Were you surprised by his declaration of love?  Was Rosa?

3.  Chapter 20--A Flight.  Is it a good idea for Rosa to go to Mr. Grewgious?  Does he seem less "angular" and "dry" now that we've seen more of him?

4.  Chapter 21--A Recognition.  Mr Tartar has a history, it seems.  What do you think Dickens might have planned for him?  How old is he?

5.  Chapter 22--A Gritty State of Things Comes on.  Can you picture Tartar's home and the conversation between Rosa and Helena Landless?  Which parts of the description stand out?

6.  Why does Billickin object to signing the lease with her Christian name?

7.  Are the Billickin and Miss Twinkleton worthy opponents?

8.  Why does Miss Twinkleton expurgate all the love scenes when reading to Rosa?

9.  Chapter 23--The Dawn Again.  Did you notice the shift back to present tense early in the chapter?

10.  Why does the Princess Puffer follow Jasper from London to Cloisterham?


See the previous questions and related links.



Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #321 on: September 20, 2009, 10:51:52 PM »
Here's the other Macbeth reference I noticed.  In Chapter X, we describe Mrs. Crisparkle's herb closet and how she doses her son, ending up with: "...he would quietly swallow what was given him, merely taking a corrective dip of hands and face into the great bowl of dried roseleaves, and into the other great bowl of dried lavender, and then would go out, as confident in the sweetening powers of Cloisterham Weir and a wholesome mind, as Lady Macbeth was hopeless of those of all the seas that roll."

If we're really going to watch Jasper come to grief, write his confession, maybe disintegrate in the process, that's a bit of foreshadowing.

Something else, not Macbeth specific: the front of my book has a list of characters, and they are arranged in the Shakesperian way--all the men first, then all the women.

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #322 on: September 21, 2009, 06:58:43 AM »

Andy--My book only has 23 chapters too.  What the h__!

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #323 on: September 21, 2009, 08:35:05 AM »
Pat, you['re kidding?  Shakespearian way? Is there anyway that you can scan that to put in here.  Pat W would help you, I'm sure, or Jane.  How interesting Shakespearian, it is indeed.
Maryal, you didn't know that either?   Our fearless leader?  haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Take me to river with Edwin!

With all of these reference I do believe the entire cast is STONED!
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ANNIE

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 2977
  • Downtown Gahanna
    • SeniorLearn
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #324 on: September 21, 2009, 11:16:52 AM »
Oh, but he has settled on his ending.  He knew the ending and described it to someone, a friend, mayby??
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #325 on: September 21, 2009, 04:54:00 PM »

Hello everyone.  Today has been a killer what with the wrapping up of pre-registration for next semester which entailed the tracking down of one of my advisees.  I promise to do better tomorrow.  Meanwhile, everyone has a chance to read the final chapters, in which we discover. . .but I won't ruin it for you.


PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #326 on: September 21, 2009, 07:57:21 PM »
Well, I read to the end last night, and among other things, it messes up my theory of how Edwin might still be alive.  I’ve been wrong about most of my guesses, so I might as well summarize my thoughts.  The basis was the appearance, in Cloisterham on Christmas Eve, of the old woman who runs the opium den.  How did she come to be there?  Jasper wants to get rid of Edwin, but can’t quite bring himself to commit murder, so he enlists her aid to shanghai Edwin (the woman has contact with sailors, and could no doubt find some willing ship).  Edwin, who has been stunned or drugged, wakes up to find himself on the way to some distant port, out of the action for now.  The ring would either have been stolen and sold, then traced back to the perpetrators, or used by Edwin when he finally gets back to prove his identity.

There are a lot of holes—for one, why did Jasper throw the watch and pin into the weir?  Anyway, chapter 23 makes it quite clear that the woman wasn’t on that kind of footing with Jasper, hadn’t yet figured out who he was by Christmas Eve.

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #327 on: September 22, 2009, 12:54:20 AM »
That was an imaginative possible ending, Pat.

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #328 on: September 22, 2009, 01:50:37 PM »
I started looking at question #1 and reread that chapter - wow, didn't Dickens have a way with words?  A shadow on the sundial!  The sinister Jasper casts his own shadow when he  reappears to visit Rosa.  He is the epitome of a shadow- obscure, dark, gloomy.  Shadow is also defined as intimation, suspicion and vestige.  That's him, that's Jasper!  He beclouds everything and everyone, particularly poor Rosa who apparently has a morbid fear of him already.  He is so dark and "shadowy".  I missed that the first time I read it.  I have more to say about that nasty man but must hit the Tuesday afternoon flicks with friends.  Be back this eve to discuss this menace.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #329 on: September 22, 2009, 02:03:51 PM »
Great points, Alf. When we first meet him, Jasper is described as "dark." He does seem like a shadow is over him, even, at times, a film over his eyes. His whole outlook on life is clouded.

Yet he appears devoted to his nephew, Edwin Drood. How can that be?

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #330 on: September 22, 2009, 02:18:21 PM »

PatH--I'm sorry that your theory didn't match the facts, but being somewhat of a bobblehead when it comes to coming up with any theories while reading (or viewing) a mystery, I admire you for trying.  I especially like the idea of Edwin being shanghaied.  That experience would teach him something that engineering in Egypt would not.

Andy--I'm also impressed with how menacing Jasper is in "Shadow on the Sun-Dial."  We begin to see why Rosa has been so very frightened of him all along, how she wanted to avoid even encountering him on the street when she was walking with Edwin, and I can imagine how uncomfortable those singing lessons were to her.  She tells Helena how his looking at her lips and watching every move makes her feel disoriented.  

Rosa shrinks from Jasper and seems to sense when he is about to take her hand which she withdraws, but she also feels compelled by him, under his spell, sort of like mesmerism in which Dickens was interested.  I think of Jasper as Rasputin.  Of course he's younger, beardless, and not Russian.

And from this awful man who terrifies her, Rosa must hear, "Rosa, even when my dear boy was affianced to you, I loved you madly; even when I thought his happiness in having you for his wife was certain, I loved you madly; even when I strove to make him more ardently devoted to you, I loved you madly; even when he gave me the picture of your lovely face so carelessly traduced by him, which I feigned to hang always in my sight for his sake, but worshiped in torment for yours, I loved you madly."  

Oh YUCK.  Run, Rosa, run away.  Hide.  Don't let this man have even so much as a brief meeting with you.

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #331 on: September 22, 2009, 05:58:09 PM »
Marcie- I don't think that he gave a tinker's damn for Edwin.

Threatening voice with eyes fixed on Rosa, I can almost hear him spit this statement out!  What a #$^&*

"Much as my dear boy was, unhappily, too self'conscious and self-satisfied (I'll draw no parallel between you and him in that respect) to love as he should have loved, or as anyone in his place would have loved-- must have loved!"

I hate that man more now than ever.  He's a demented narcissist and he's ticked because Rosa shuns him and he knows how much she finds him distasteful.

Good grief he outwardly threatens her.

"his face looks so wicked and menacing as he stand leaning against the sundial-- setting as it were, his black mark upon the very face of day."  There i s the answer to this chapter's title.

He makes ME cringe and I'm not a delicate little debutante as Ms. Rosa is.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #332 on: September 22, 2009, 06:03:52 PM »
Charlie wins again.  Here's part of an article from The New York Times.

LOS ANGELES — And the big winner at the 2009 Emmy Awards is ... Charles Dickens!

      The PBS presentation of the BBC Drama Productions adaptation of “Little Dorrit,” the sprawling Dickens tale featuring a 19th-century Ponzi scheme (one that predated Charles Ponzi), won seven Emmys this year, including three of those presented during Sunday night’s prime-time broadcast — the most of any show on television last year.

     Few who have seen it would argue that the five-part, eight-hour project was undeserving of the awards for best mini-series and outstanding writing and directing of a mini-series, movie or dramatic special.

By EDWARD WYATT
Published: September 21, 2009
NY Times

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #333 on: September 22, 2009, 08:41:52 PM »
What did Jasper really feel toward Edwin?  When I read the first few chapters, there seemed something oddly unwholesome about the relationship--close, but not in a good way.  I should reread to check, but sometimes when you go back you miss what you saw the first time.  Anyway, there is some sort of powerful emotion there; maybe he likes being in control of Edwin.

Control is surely a lot of what he wants of Rosa.  He has tried to dominate her during music lessons, and now he says he doesn't care if she hates him, just so he can possess her.  He threatens her that if she doesn't give in to him, he'll see that Neville is convicted of Edwin's murder, whether guilty or not.

She can't really be surprised, but she's terrified, and is absolutely right to fly to the protection of Mr. Grewgious.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #334 on: September 22, 2009, 10:53:07 PM »
Another example of my poor guessing: I said Tartar was too eccentric to be paired with the heroine, but Rosa is obviously very taken with him, and he with her.  He seems less eccentric now, too.  Crisparkle is 35.  Tartar was C's fag, which implies he was about 5 years younger, about 30.  (In British public schools the incoming boys are "fags", sort of servants, to the Senior boys.)

While Rosa and Helena are talking to each other through the beanstalks, it also becomes obvious that Helena is much taken with Mr. Crisparkle, so there we have the two heroines possibly married off.  Poor Neville.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #335 on: September 22, 2009, 11:13:42 PM »
When we spent the night with Durdles in the Cathedral, I was interested in the angels on the corbels, and wanted to find a picture.  I eventually came to this site, which has more information any human being could possible want to know about Rochester Cathedral.  However, it has page numbers on the right hand side.  If you scroll down to pages 61-62, you will see a nice drawing of the Gates to the Cathedral, which the text identifies as Jasper's gateway in Edwin Drood.  I'm guessing that the left, narrower, side, with a small door is Jasper's doorway, and you go up a stair to the floor above, while the right hand side is where Datchery sat with his door open, watching all and sundry.

http://www.basiccarpentrytechniques.com/English%20Medieval%20Cathedrals/Bell%27s%20Cathedrals%20Rochester%20Cathedral/Bell%27s%20Cathedrals%20Rochester%20Cathedral.htm

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #336 on: September 22, 2009, 11:16:08 PM »
Oops, forgot to mention that some disappointing drawings of the corbels are on pages 89 and 92.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #337 on: September 23, 2009, 08:46:47 AM »
Oh PatH, that link to Rochester Cathedral is such a find!  We need to keep it in the Archives with this discussion!  It is wonderful - and it made me so sad to see it!  To think I was in London a few weeks ago, only a twenty minute train ride from seeing it.  Not just the outside - the innards are open to the public!  
Such a missed opportunity!  I'm sick about it!  See what you've done, Pat? :'(

I agree, I don't think Jasper EVER felt anything for his "dear boy."  Anything but envy, that is.  He's like that two-faced Janus.  He only acts as if he cares about Edwin.
Quote
"A look of intentness and intensity - a look of hungry, exacting, watchful, and yet devoted affection - is now and ever afterwards, on Jasper's face, whenever the  Jasper face is addressed in this direction."
Had Dickens lived to write more, I'm sure we would have learned more about Jasper's family history - and how he became Edwin's "guardian."   I'll bet the resentment has always been there, only to become more intense when Jasper began to covet Rosa.

It is Mr. Grewgious who has my attention.  The Angular man who appears to have no feelings -  
Quote
"Who could have told whether he had known ambition or disappointment?"
What is his history?  He lives alone, seems so lonely.  He fawns over Rosa as if she is a china doll - and makes several references to her dear deceased mother.  He's downright chivalrous.  Do we know how he came to be Rosa's ward?  Whatever happened to her father - I don't remember, do you?

Rosa's instincts were right on - she knew he was the person to  run to for protection.  A father figure.  She is now among friends.  Don't you feel a change in mood.  Though the beastly Jasper is still at large, don't you feel the second half of the novel would have been less...noir?


ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #338 on: September 23, 2009, 10:42:31 AM »
Joan P- No, unfortunately I feel quite the opposite.  I believe it would have become more NOIR!  As you referred to him, the two ffaced JJanus ;D (little humor there) would become more forbidding.  I feel that Dickens described to us a mere foreboding of what the diabolical Jasper was capable of.  He's certifiable this guy and I believe he would stoop to any means to possess what he wants.  On top of that inherent malicious soul we have a junkie-  never a good combination.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #339 on: September 23, 2009, 11:33:19 AM »
But Andy, it is no longer the vulnerable maiden alone who withers under his penetrating eyes and threats.  Now she has a phalanx of support - not the least of which is Tartar!

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #340 on: September 23, 2009, 12:41:35 PM »

I agree Andy that the second half would have shown us an even clearer picture of the devious and two-faced John (Jack) Jasper complete with his family history.  Now that the devil is clear in his intentions toward Rosa, not to mention his threats to her--if she doesn't do as he wishes he will put her friend Helena into sorrow--how can we suppose that he will somehow turn out to be less ominous.

Of course, Joan P, you may be right in that to understand is at least partially to forgive.  Maybe.  Isn't it frustrating that we will never know?

Pat H--Thank you for that wonderful link to Rochester Cathedral.  How I would love to be there right now to explore.  Years ago my husband and I toured a number of the great Cathedrals around London but we missed Rochester.  There was always so much to gawk at--and the guide books with the additional material.  I still have some of them. 

Maybe Tartar is intended for Helena.  Surely that strong young woman who was fiercer than her brother in her defiance of the evil guardians deserves a strong man.  Pat H--Thanks for the information about how old Tartar must be, as well as reminding us that "fags" were servants of the older boys in a kind of long-lasting initiation.  The British public school system must have been something in Dickens' time.  I'd like to time-travel back to observe classes and dorm life for about a week. 


JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #341 on: September 23, 2009, 03:30:18 PM »
Tartar confuses me. (not to look back) but doesn't he have white hair? At thirty? And it seems as if he is still being treatyed as if he were a servant. But he must be upper class if he went to a "public" school.

That confused me for years. In England, a "public" school means the opposite of what it does in America -- a "public" school is an elite private school. No idea how the terminology started.

PATH: the picture was wonderful -- I can picture the charactes going up those stairs one-by one to an unknown fate. (what a good touch that was).

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #342 on: September 23, 2009, 03:31:39 PM »
I just love the scene where Rosa is stepping in and out among the flowers. I think that is the scene I will remember long after the book is finished.

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #343 on: September 23, 2009, 03:34:51 PM »
JoanK - it's Datchery with the white hair, I think.  White hair and black eyebrows, did you notice that?  Is he someone wearing a disguise?  I thought it was funny that he's got a hat, but Dickens makes a point to point out that he's always carrying it, never wearing it.  Maybe he IS in disguise - someone not used to wearing a wig, he thinks his head is covered when he wears it - and forgets that he's not wearing a hat. 

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #344 on: September 23, 2009, 03:38:29 PM »
Some really little detail   still sitting in the back of my mind - do you remember Edwin's  present to Rosa on her 19th birthday?  Wasn't it odd?  19 pairs of gloves?  Nothing much was said about it...Rosa didn't seem to think it was out of the ordinary.  Was it customary at the time - or was it an example of how Edwin was not a very romantic young man?
I thought maybe Dickens was going to circle back and mention them...

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #345 on: September 23, 2009, 05:11:27 PM »
I just love the scene where Rosa is stepping in and out among the flowers. I think that is the scene I will remember long after the book is finished.
I read "Drood" 20 or 30 years ago, and remembered almost nothing about it, but that is the scene I remember.

Some really little detail   still sitting in the back of my mind - do you remember Edwin's  present to Rosa on her 19th birthday?  Wasn't it odd?  19 pairs of gloves?  Nothing much was said about it...Rosa didn't seem to think it was out of the ordinary.
The gloves puzzled me in a different way.  There were very prudish rules back then about what items a gentleman could properly give a lady, and one was "nothing that would touch her skin".  I know the rules were a little looser once the couple was engaged, and maybe hands, being extremities, were an exception, but I was startled at that present.

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #346 on: September 23, 2009, 06:52:36 PM »

Funny the parts of books you remember.  I expect I will also remember Rosa going from the inside of Tartar's place, which looks like a ship, to the outside which looks like a flower garden.  Even Rosa gets confused.  I think the section is wonderfully written--and likely hard to do--such different scenes!

Funny also about the gloves that Edwin gave Rosa on her birthday.  I didn't know that gifts from gentlemen to ladies were never to be something that would touch the skin, but Pat H, you must be right that the rules would alter somewhat for an engaged young man.  Talk about "being Victorian," takes on all sorts of new meaning when you think about those gloves and whether or not they were proper. 

Would it have been OK for Edwin to have given her jewelry?  That would also break the touching the skin rule.  How on earth did you know that, Pat H?

As for the gloves, the only thing I thought about was what an awful lot of gloves to have.  Then I remembered that ladies wore them all the time (guess who was never much of a lady?) and thought poor Rosa must need a whole drawer just for gloves.  Imagining that made me feel a little creepy.  Sort of like the suitcase dream I used to have.

And yes, Joan P, I think the one with white hair and black eyebrows is our new friend, Datchery.  Dickens does make quite a point of how often he shakes his hair.  I thought that was odd. 

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #347 on: September 23, 2009, 08:54:19 PM »
Could Datchery be someone in disguise? Edwin?

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #348 on: September 23, 2009, 09:46:30 PM »
I thought that 19 pairs of gloves was sort of romantic...very cute idea to give Rosa 19 of them.

I do think that Datchery is in disguise. Could it be Tartar? Some people think it's Helena (who dressed as a boy in disguise when she was young).

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10954
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #349 on: September 23, 2009, 11:13:24 PM »
The book I'm reading has no notes, but it has an excellent, though short, introduction by detective story writer Michael Innes (literary critic and English professor under his real name, J. I. M. Stewart).  Almost all of this is speculation about the various theories of the ending.  I don't want to dump all that into the discussion, but he does talk about who Datchery might be.  One is Grewgious' clerk Bazzard (when Rosa flees to London, Grewgious says Bazzard is "...off duty here, altogether, just at present").  Other suggestions are Edwin, Helena, and Tartar.  Apparently, in Victorian literature, disguises were thought to be more impenetrable than we would think.

Another thing mentioned is the cover illustration for all the installments. It's shown in our heading, but on a rather small scale.  Here it is:

http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/images/drdxa2.gif

Look at the picture in the middle of the bottom.  It shows Jasper (probably) discovering, by lantern light, an immobile figure.  Who's that?

serenesheila

  • Posts: 494
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #350 on: September 24, 2009, 03:41:11 AM »
I have finished our book.  To my surprise, I think that I enjoyed the book.  However, I have no idea where, or how, CD planned to finish it.  At times, I have thought that Edwin just went to India, early, to avoid embarrassment.  But, then why were his watch and stick pin be found in the weir? 

Chapter 22 really confuses me.  Of what importance was that argument? 

Sheila

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #351 on: September 24, 2009, 07:15:32 AM »

Sheila--I'm so glad you enjoyed the book; so did I somewhat to my surprise.  I really like Dickens, but worried about it only being half a book.  Despite its abbreviated nature, it has some truly fine writing--Dickens at his best--as well as characters, especially Jasper and Crisparkle, that I'd really like to know more about.

I am at school, but I'll try to answer your question about Chapter 22 when I get home where the book is.

Ditto with the illustration, Pat H.  I really need to think about that one.

I'll bet Joan P can come up with something for the illustration. 

JoanP

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10394
  • Arlington, VA
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #352 on: September 24, 2009, 01:47:31 PM »
Sheila, you get caught up in  Dickens writing, don't you?  Even without an ending, frustrating as it is, he sure can write a story!

I have to say that Datchery's  black eyebrows made me think immediately of Neville and Helena.   Dickens had gone out of his way to describe their raven tresses.  There was something else about Helena - how she used to go about disguised as a boy - remember that?  Can Datchery be Helena?  Where is she while away from Miss Twinkleton's?  Is she really spending her time with Neville in London in that tiny room as he tries to study law?  Helena is my first candidate for Datchery - who is clearly in disguise with that while flowing hair.  The hair would have to be long and flowing to cover Helena's hair - why he shakes it, I don't have an explanation.


There's been a lot said about what the green wrapper reveals.  Apparently Wilkie Collins' son, Charles, who is married to Dickens'  daughter was the first illustrator.  When he became too ill (opium addiction?) to carry on, Dickens met with Luke Fildes to continue to work.  At that point, Dickens made some changes to the original wrapper, - Many think these changes indicate how Dickens intended to finish his novel. 

Thanks for the enlargement of that wrapper, PatH - it helps us see the detail... I'll put it up here again -  so you can follow along  with this explanation...

"The problematic figures are those that, having read the first half of the novel, we cannot confidently explain or identify, most especially the figure with the white hat in the fifth vignette. Writing in 1905, J. Cuming Walters proposed that the dark-haired, bewhiskered man holding the lantern is John Jasper, returned to the scene of the crime to confirm that Edwin is indeed dead, and that the young man in the Tyrolean white hat is Helena Landless (otherwise known as "Datchery"):

How complete would the surprise be when the watcher, seemingly a man, proved to be a woman; doubly startling when the seemingly old man proved to be a young woman; how utterly confounding to a man like Jasper, when he found, after so successfully deceiving and thwarting men all his life, that a woman brought about his downfall. [Walters 244]
While it is not unreasonable to conjecture that the mysterious figure in the white hat is Datchery (or, for that matter, Edwin Drood returned to life from abroad, or a figment of Jasper's guilty imagination), the pale skin and rounded features do not square with Helena's physiognomy. Nor is it reasonable to suppose that Jasper and others about town would have failed to penetrate the disguise, Helena being so well known to them. R. A. Proctor (1887), has suggested that the "figure in a tightly-buttoned coat and with a large hat" (Walters 245) is Drood, whom John Jasper, acting under the influence of opium, had merely thought he strangled. Yet again, Dickens scholar Andrew Lang in "The Puzzle of Dickens's Last Plot" (also in 1905) advanced the notion that, while the "dark and whiskered man" (Walters 246) was indeed Jasper, the features of the other person indicate that the youth is "Edwin Drood, of the Grecian nose, hyacinthine locks, and classical features, as in Sir Luke Fildes' third illustration" (cited in Walters, 246), "At the Piano." Walters' theory about a disguised Helena Landless does, however, have its supporters: in particular, Henry Smetham in a series of articles in the Rochester and Chatham Journal (1905) speculated that Helena had assumed the figure of the murdered Drood in order to terrify Jasper into confessing his guilt. Some critics resolve the mystery without worrying about the identity of Datchery; for example,

*"S. Y. E." "Dickens and his last book; A new theory." [Article in Nottingham Guardian (Jan. 9 [1912]), suggesting that Drood "sailed for the East" and was not murdered; that Neville Landless was falsely accused of killing him; that Jasper, thwarted in his criminal designs, threw himself over the Cathdral parapet, and, in dying, confessed his ill deeds.] [cited in Walters, 263]
Although the issue of the identities of the pursuers climbing the circular stair at the right-hand side of the wrapper would seem relatively trivial compared top the identity of the smooth-faced stranger in white at the bottom centre of the page, there are two distinct and quite contrary interpretations of the leader. That the uniformed police of the draft have been transformed into a party of what Penguin editor David Paroissien terms "plainclothes men" (295) is not so great a matter. If the period in which Dickens set the novel is some thirty years prior to the date of composition, the change may simply reflect an attempt to correct an anachronism, the London Metropolitan Police (i. e., the "Bobbies" in crime and detection fiction such as Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes mysteries) would not have existed when the authorities were in hot pursuit of Drood's killer. As J. R. Cohen suggests, the change may also be a deliberate attempt to inject ambiguities into the wrapper design; furthermore, the pursuers may well be a deputized "posse" such as the party of townsmen who apprehend Neville Landless on the highroad the day after Drood's disappearance. On the other hand, the location of the staircase may be limited to one of two places encountered in the letter-press: the postern of John Jasper's gatehouse, or the tower of Cloisterham Cathedral.

But who is the leader of the pursuers, if the two men wearing hats lower on the stair are, as J. R. Cohen proposes, Tartar and Crisparkle (whom she selects simply on the grounds that Dickens had planned to marry them to Rosa and Helena respectively, and because he had mentioned to Collins that he had thought of having Neville die in the pursuit of the real murderer)? The top figure, pointing upward in the general direction of choirmaster John Jasper in the top register, is unidentifiable in the draft, but with tailcoat and fair hair could well be Tartar--or the fair haired, fair skinned man of mystery at the bottom centre. The other possibility is fascinating in psychological terms because (if we can conceive of the figure as dark-haired) it could be John Jasper, pointing at himself, in which case the scene may represent the doting uncle's fruitless attempts to find his missing nephew, or (if his disappearance is the result of foul play) his killer.

 To read the article in its entirety - and remember, this is just a theory! - http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illustration/fildes/wrapper.html

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #353 on: September 24, 2009, 02:49:40 PM »
JoanP: fascinating!

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #354 on: September 24, 2009, 04:31:18 PM »

Joan P--Thank you, thank you.  I will return after I read the whole article.  I read somewhere in the Penguin edition about the men on the stairs being policemen or a posse, like the one we have already met. 

I love the opium smoking gentleman on the bottom right and the woman with the smoking device (Princess Puffer?) on the bottom left out of whose combined smoke the illustrations of the story come.

I also am taken with the top illustration which shows Edwin and Rosa as a couple with Jasper observing them amongst the Cathedral clergy and altar boys. 

It seems from composition alone that the bottom picture, the one with Jasper and the unidentified personage with the hat, must be important since it is in the center and balances the larger top drawing. 

As for the coloring of said unidentified person, perhaps he/she is simply not inked in enough and thus is purposefully left to be filled in by the reader.  We would be able to do this if we had the whole novel.

Flu report from school:  There are currently more than 100 mids incarcerated in the squash courts, complete with guards to ensure that no one goes out or enters.   Plan B calls for them to be moved to Halsey Field House--I heard that this was being done now but haven't confirmed that information.  If we reach 400 (and one of my students pointed out that the numbers were increasing geometrically), then we go to shut down--for a week--no classes while the flu burns itself out.  That's Plan C. 





 

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #355 on: September 24, 2009, 06:48:34 PM »
Deems, Is it the regular flu that your students have?

Thanks for mentioning the cover illustration, PatH and for the interesting article, JoanP.

The bottom figure seems as if it could be Edwin Drood. It could be when he was still alive and Jasper was, perhaps, leading him into the crypts to do the dastardly deed.

I would think that Helena, Neville and Mr. Crisparkle should be on the cover too.

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #356 on: September 24, 2009, 07:54:01 PM »
Marcie--The ubiquitous "they" say it is H1N1.  The students have had the regular flu mist.

All who know where I teach, please don't identify it.  I've checked the news--all local newspapers--and it's not there, so obviously "they" are keeping this quiet.  For the time being. 

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #357 on: September 24, 2009, 07:58:26 PM »
I'm so sorry that your place of work has such an outbreak Deems! I hope you'll keep well.

Deems

  • Posts: 252
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #358 on: September 24, 2009, 08:27:59 PM »

Thanks, Marcie.  Doing the best I can--handwashing, using that awful hand purifier, asking students to tell me if they are sick, that I will report them present and they can go back to their rooms and sleeeeep.  I don't want them to go into what "they" are not calling quarantine because it sounds overcrowded and awful.  Secretary told me first thing in the morning today that "they" are out of beds in "District 9," and new admitees were being asked to bring the mattress from their beds.  Really.  Sounds like a petri dish situation to me.

marcie

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7802
Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #359 on: September 24, 2009, 09:10:16 PM »
Yikes!