The Library

[Steph]

hmm, I think most states have a basic line on education in how much they give the schools , but the districts who can afford it give more if they want to. Jehadi John.. if these guys are so brave and tough and mean, why the heck do they all wear masks.. If you are that sure of yourselves, show us your faces.

[bellamarie]

I have very mixed feelings about going to " a state system of schools."   I choose to live in a certain school district, and know I am going to pay higher taxes, so my child will have the benefits of my tax dollars for their education.  Going to a state system, does not change the lifestyle of a child.  It may or may not give them a better or equal opportunity to the benefits of other districts with higher tax dollars, but considering where they are living, that is and always will be the major factor in how these opportunities are utilized.

A strong, stable two parent family is and always will be the best opportunity to give all children a better life/education.  Rural or city is not necessarily the comparison, what we really are speaking about is inner city, versus other districts where families make more income, pay more taxes, and more stable in their lives, with less crime, drugs, and risk factors keeping children from aspiring to better education/lives.  

Before I taught in a private Catholic school for 15 yrs., my children attended a public school in a district with less tax dollars going to education, the children in these areas were from homes with parents refusing to be involved, and not taking the time to be proactive in their child's education, resulting in children not interested in learning, doing homework, being disruptive in the class, preventing other students the opportunity to have the teacher's attention to teach.  We decided to move into a school district where there was more income tax going to education, and yes, the environment in these schools were more conducive to learning in the classroom.  So while we can provide schools with all the same textbooks, computers and opportunities using a "state system," it will not change their environment and life styles.

My daughter in law works for a state funded program, "Healthy Start Help Me Grow" program that is with Pro Medica.  She begins with the young unwed mother from the time she is pregnant until the child is 3 yrs. old.  She does home visits and sees the districts/areas/homes, her clients live in.  She knows, even though their program provides these young mothers the opportunity for their baby's pre-birth to 3 yrs old, the lifestyle and area they are living in is a huge disadvantage.  Most homes should be condemned, yet there are grandmother, mother, daughter and soon to be baby living in these homes, with nieces, nephews, brothers and sisters.  The baby daddy is no where to be found, unless he comes around to take whatever money they may have.  Until we can make a change in these type of lifestyles, until fathers step up and take responsibility for their children, until there are two parents involved, moral and Christian values being taught and lived,  the "state system education" is not, and will not, be the solution.  Like Dr. Phil Mcgraw says, (paraphrase) "Until we acknowledge the problem, and are willing to make the change to stop it, you can not and will not solve it."

Sorry for so lengthy, I am just a real advocate for children, education, responsibility and accountability.  Our kids deserve more....starting with the parents and home life.

[pedln]

All kids deserve more.  My state (and no doubt most states) has a complicated funding plan for education and I certainly do not understand it.  What I do understand is that it tries to level the playing field so that all districts received the determined adequate amount.  A weighted average daily attendance is taken into account and three groups of students are counted as more than one students --  1) those on Free or reduced lunch, 2) students with IEPs (special ed) 3) students who are not language proficient.  Local districts certainly pay, but most cannot foot the whole bill. Poorer districts benefit from the weighted daily average attendance.

[marjifay]

So,  because poor kids who have parents who are probably ill-educated or non-English speakers, those kids should be deprived of textbooks, computers and better teachers , is that the idea?  Let all the money go to wealthy districts where kids are already advantaged?  I don't agree.   Some of those poor kids might just be able to get ahead in spite of their under-educated parents if they have good teachers who care about them and good textbooks and other equipment.  

Marj  

[bellamarie]

I think we agree ALL kids deserve all the tools to help them learn in their schools. All children deserve the best possible education.  My point I was making is that all the tools can be supplied, but until we address the major problem, home life we are not going to solve the problem.  I just don't know if I agree with the state system.

  

[marjifay]

Just how do we correct/change childrens' home lives?  The divorce rate has soared and will probably continue to do so.  One parent homes are everywhere.  I was a single mom, and it was difficult raising my two sons by myself.  Luckily I had a good job and a college education.

Marj

[Steph]

My printer has again decided that if I want to print out a document more than three pages, I am on my own.They do three pages ( the last three at that) and boom.. cancelled. Oh well, busy day, will work on it tomorrow..

[PatH]

I think Pedln's system was giving MORE money to the poor, special needs, and non-language-proficient children.

[MaryPage]

The home life thing is cultural.  There are states and counties putting in place special programs to get into homes and address this problem head on through home therapy lessons for young mothers, but they cannot get to the homes that are empty in the daytime, with the kids dropped off at various places.  AND these programs are few and far between.

The mother who has never herself owned a book, been read to, or been held and hugged and constantly talked to, does what HER mother and grandmother did:  she only yells at her kids, otherwise ignoring them.  She knows no better.

The main thrust to try to eradicate this pattern is to start teaching little girls from kindergarten through high school.  Books and films on the same theme should be forced reading/watching.  Teach our deprived young that if they will their children to do better in life, they simply need to TALK to them, hold and caress them, obtain books for them, read to them and teach them.

We cannot expect others inherently to have a comprehension of the culture our middle classes have been privileged to experience, if they have never known anything like it.  Language has very little to do with this, as many immigrants come to this country already convinced of the benefits of love, encouragement and education and are eager to follow that pattern.  It is those numbers already rampant in our nation, while native to a sort of gutter English, if you will, who must be deviated from their destructive cycles of despair.

[mabel1015j]

Let us not forget our 300+ yrs of immigration and that each wave of each culture had people who learned the majority language (inNew Amsterdam - aka NYC in the 18th century it would have been Dutch -as in Holland, not Pa Dutch, which was really German) because they wanted to get ahead. High percentages of those immigrants did NOT learn English (after the 18th century), but had Lutheran Churches that had German-speaking services, some into the 20th century; Irish clubs and pubs where the language was Gaelic; Italian clubs and newspapers; Yiddish theaters and newspapers; Aisian worship services of all kinds; Hispanic dialects of all kinds to today. And to not forget that Native American children were put in gov't schools and punished if they spoke their nation's language.

Actually all of the groups had clubs, newspapers, churches, restaurants, shops, theaters, schools that spoke the immigrant language or dialect for decades and decades. Thank goodness for the unifying culture of public schools.

Depending on the size of the immigrant community, more or less English was learned; the bigger the community of immigrants, the less need to learn English. All of our ancestors brought their cultures with them, that's why we have all this wonderful food in the U.S. 

[bellamarie]

I think until fathers remain in their child's lives, accept their responsibilities and be good role models, the home lives of children in the less fortunate school districts will continue to be less educated, less goal oriented, and less likely to be successful in life.  This is a generational cycle.  A single mother is usually the nurturer, the one working two jobs, trying to be both parents to their children. I commend all single mothers.  

This is our problem that MUST be solved.  

https://singlemotherguide.com/single-mother-statistics/

"Black and Hispanic women have the highest teen pregnancy rates — 100 and 84 per 1,000 women aged 15–19, respectively; whites have the lowest rate with 38 pregnancies per 1,000."

"In 2013, 15% of the 1.6 million children born out of wedlock in the U.S. were to teenagers under age 20, 37% were to women ages 20 through 24."

"Black women are more likely to have children outside of marriage than other racial or ethnic groups. In that year, about 72% of births to black women were non-marital births.

Children born to young unmarried mothers are most likely to grow up in a single-parent household. More than two thirds end up on welfare."

Of these percentages, you can be assured, the boy/man/father, is not present and active in a large percentage of these numbers once the baby is born.  

As far as immigration, with our borders open to all to cross illegally, we will only see more children in poverty, ill educated, and schools over populated.  Our system and lifestyles are broken, the home life is broken.  The state government programs are trying to help, but until we go to the real root of the problem, this is a band aide on a haemorrhaging wound.

[BarbStAubrey]

Worth a read how the Catholic Church upgraded the life of huge numbers of immigrants in the past to help them become contributing families with well educated children where delinquent children were cared about rather than thrown in jail. Bellamarie there really is no reason every parish could not imitate what proved successful in the past.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/8_4_urbanities_once_we_knew.html

[Steph]

I have done and helped others in genealogy for many many years. My background is upstate NY, Albany,Schenectady, early Dutch, German,Danish, etc. Interestingly enough, the early
Dutch in upstate NY clung to Dutch until the mid 1800's. You can look at the church records to see how closely they held to their patterns. Then enough engish finally got there and it started rapidly being English.. Actually the silliest language is not a language, but slang on the black community. They call it ebonics, but it boils down to slurred words etc. Holds them back terribly, but they don't seem to grip that at all.

[MaryPage]

I have a different take on the fathers in the home thing.  My take is that it will never, ever be resolved by trying to persuade our population of swaggering male youth.  Close your eyes for a moment and visualize a nature film of rutting elk, for instance.  Now connect that by a mental thread to these teenage bucks.  Deeply embedded in their genes is an overwhelming NEED to rut.  It has been there for thousands and thousands of years, and is their strongest instinct after eating, even stronger than saving their own skins from mortal danger.  You think preaching to them about morals and the ideal family pattern is going to trump that?  Shoot, the very church that pushes the holy family model has been rife with priests who rape children!
Look instead to the females of our incorrigible species to solve the problem for themselves.  GIVE them free birth control.  Absolutely free birth control without questions, and throw in free consultations and reproductive system checkups.  These young women, for the most part, WANT to better themselves and complete their educations and support themselves into a better lifestyle.
This is my honest and true view of the matter.  I have no wish to insult anyone else regarding their opinion.  I see this as the rock bottom truth of the matter, and in arriving here I have had to discard every ideal I was raised with.  One more thought before I quit typing this post:  I have read that in any given poverty ridden neighborhood in this country, it is a very small percentage of the males who have fathered most of the huge population of single mother children.  Me, I fantasize that these could be identified beyond question and neutered like the animals they are, but, sigh, this cannot be done in a civilized society.  So look to the OTHER side of the mirror and arm the little girls with birth control. 

[marjifay]

How about teaching (not just little girls, but also little boys how to become good fathers, get a good education, how important education including college is to be able to find a good job?

[MaryPage]

With all due respect, I think that is an ideal and very beautiful plan of remedy, but I would also point out it is one that civilization has been attempting without success for literally thousands of years.  Thousands of years.  Leaders of governments and leaders of religious faiths have been trying in vain to promote those goals for millennia, and with a great deal of success at maintaining a fairly intact society with such rules.
But I maintain that there is a certain percentage, a core group if you will, of males who change drastically upon entering puberty and who have come upon their entire being a lust for sex which is all about being the dominant alpha male in their marked territory of sexual prowling, and all the laws, rules, regulations and preachments on this planet are not going to change that.  It is primal.  It is an urge that pushes logical thinking right out the back door of their brains and into oblivion.
Think about it, and look at reality.  I believe we need to give all womanhood free birth control as a barrier against the invasion of sperm that is responsible for a very large portion of the insidious poverty in our land.
Not to mention the unteachable little unwanted and unloved children in our elementary school system.
I think we need to look at realistic remedies that will cut down on the bad stuff going on, and forego clinging to our beautiful fairy tale visions of how things should be.  Look instead at how they really are.

[bellamarie]

BarbStAubrey,  I agree, the churches of all faiths need to do more.  We, as Christians need to do more.  Thank you for the link.

MaryPage,  

You think preaching to them about morals and the ideal family pattern is going to trump that?

I would expect good father role models would teach their sons these morals, values, and responsibilities. These can be taught with no organized religion for that matter.  Not sure why the Catholic church and priests got involved in this discussion, but the statements being made are not relevant.  

A child needs both parents in their lives to teach, nurture, and be examples for them.

Marjifay,  

How about teaching (not just little girls, but also little boys how to become good fathers, get a good education, how important education including college is to be able to find a good job?

Thank you!  My point exactly!  No female should EVER be expected to automatically take on the responsibility of all that a male figure is meant to be.  I don't agree at all in the male's human instinct is to flee, and that it is primal.  I have a great husband, and two wonderful sons who are dads to sons, and they have NO instinct to flee.  If anything my son took on being a father to his wife's son, after her divorce to a drug addict and abuser. I know many great male role models/fathers.

I lived in poverty, I had a hard working stepfather who raised me and my six siblings, after my father was killed in a train wreck.  There are men who step up.  

MaryPage,  

I believe we need to give all womanhood free birth control as a barrier against the invasion of sperm that is responsible for a very large portion of the insidious poverty in our land. I think we need to look at realistic remedies that will cut down on the bad stuff going on, and forego clinging to our beautiful fairy tale visions of how things should be.  Look instead at how they really are.

Do you realize most young girls can get free birth control at a clinic or planned parenthood?  And how shall we tackle the fact even when they are given it, they do not necessarily take it as they should.  And what about the ones who have to deal with the side effects of birth control?  Are we willing to place that on our young girls, so they may continue to have sex, with the primal oversexed hormonal young boys?  Not, to mention the STDs they may contract using birth control without condoms. With all due respect, your solutions are to place unbearable responsibility on females.

According to our census, the reality is most children live in a two parent home.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/us/21census.html?_r=0

And according to pew research, almost 80% of Americans have some faith based belief.
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

It's ALL in the "home life,"  I can't say it enough, it's generational, not primal, it can be solved, but not by forcing all responsibility on to the female, giving the male the excuse it's all about his sexual hormones.  I know there are a large majority of men who would see this offensive, to think they are looked upon as such.

I am going to respectfully remove myself from this topic, and move on to the discussion of Emma, which begins today!

[PatH]

Bellamarie made an interesting comment in the Emma discussion.  Emma is a book that has stood the test of time, but she didn't think many books written in the last ten years would do so.

What about it?  Have you read anything written in the last ten years that you think will last a century?

[Steph]

Considerling that I don't think Emma is an eternal book.. Others that she wrote, yes, but not that particular one.. Hmm. Yes, I do think that a few things I have read in the past ten years qualify, but know that others would not.. Ann Patchett is an author, who I believe will stand the test of time. She writes in an universal theme in many ways. Anne Tyler.. she writes of small events in one particular area of our wonderful country and I think that people could read her 100 years from now and still understand her characters.

[BarbStAubrey]

My vote is for Haruki Murakami along with Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

[BarbStAubrey]

Found this - great...!

http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/ll/farewell-my-lovely-distinction/

[bellamarie]

I do think Pride & Prejudice would be considered Austen's all time book to withstand the test of time, even though there are others.

James Patterson seems to be an author who has brought his works right into the 21st century and will continue to be at the top of the list of bestsellers.  He appeals to the old and young, which makes him relevant and lasting.

James Patterson is a prolific author who has written detective stories, thrillers, science fiction, romance and young adult novels. His first book was published in 1976; 20 years later he left his advertising career to focus on writing. Patterson holds the Guinness World Record for having the most books on The New York Times' best-seller list.

Now....for a little fun, can anyone from the top of their head name one of Patterson's books?

The Beach House is mine.

[Steph]

I try very hard to ignore Patterson once he stopped writing and began coopting his books.. So the first ones were interesting although not the best mysteries I have ever read, but for the past 6-8 years, I have avoided all of them. I counted 52 hardcovers in our library book sale by him. A bunch of us got together and started moving them all to one spot.. Everyone had fun..But he is popular,, just not with me. If we include sci fi,, then Terry Pratchett would be my vote for universal.. his books hit the spots..

[PatH]

Certainly we can include sci-fi.  And Pratchett is the funniest author I've ever read, along with containing some really scathing social comments.

[mabel1015j]

I don't know who is behind this website, "openroad media", but they are celebrating Women's History Month with some lists by/about women.

Do you have a favorite fiction and non-fiction book about women's lives? We probably all have many, this could be a long thread.  

The first link is a list of potential book club suggestions, the second is books by women authors you oribably know.

http://www.openroadmedia.com/blog/2015-03-02/Book-Club-Guide-and-Recommendations-Series-March-Sale.aspx?utm_campaign=Book%20Club&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=referral

http://www.openroadmedia.com/badasswomen?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Open%20Road%20Reader&utm_campaign=Open%20Road%20Reader%20030315&utm_content=Blast_03%2F03%2F2015

Jean

[mabel1015j]

I see Shana Alexander is one of Openroad Media's authors, that is a plus for me. Do you remember Shana Alexander? She had columns and articles in many popular magazines and was on somebody's talk show on a regular basis, was it Phil Donahue? I liked her very much and read a couple if her books.

Oh, yes, Sixty Minutes! And first female editor at McCalls.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shana_Alexander

BY THE WAY, my favorite "womens books" would start with almost any of Mary Alice Monroe's books, for fiction, and any books about Eleanor of Aquitaine  or Eleanor Roosevelt for non-fiction. Although one of my favorite fiction books, as some of you have heard before is "The Dollmaker" by Harriet Aarnow, about an Appalachian woman during WWII who helps keep her family together by making doll carvings.

Jean

[bellamarie]

I have never been able to enjoy sci-fi, so I am not familiar with Prachett.  Funny sci-fi?  Now that is something I would not expect. 

I know many of you may not spend much time with novels of love and romance, but I spent many hours reading Danielle Steele, and Jackie Collins when I first got married, and had all the time in the world to read before my first job and babies.

[ginny]

I am very excited to have a copy of the new Heartbreak Hotel by Degborah Moggach (remember her?) the author of the Best Exotic Marigold Hotel.  Best Exotic II  the Movie  comes out Friday and her new book on a different hotel but a similar theme  came out today.

I didn't like the ending of the  Exotic Hotel in her hands, I thought it was depressing, but the reviews of this one are very positive, warm, funny, engaging...we'll see.

It could be awful.

[pedln]

Jean, one of my favorite "women's" books is Elizabeth Forsythe Hailey's A Woman of Independ Means, inspired by the life of her grandmother. This is an epistolary novel, starting at the end of the 19th century when Bess Garner Steed was a young child and continued through her grandmotherhod.  Her young husband was a pioneer in the insurance business who left Bess a very young widow. Nevertheless, that and other family tragedies did not allow her to pine and despair, but rather to carry on with determination,shaping the lives of those around her. This title was also a mini-series on TV and a feature film starring Sally Field.

Ginny, I think the movie of the first Exotic Marigold Hotel is so much better than the book, much of which I thought was gross.  Looking forward to the second film, but will pass on the book, if there is one.

[mabel1015j]

Oh, yes, Pedln, i thought about that one too. It's in my top 20!

Jean

[Steph]

Iloved the movie of Exotic Marigold, but got the book and hated it.. Very much a downer..
The Dollmaker. I have read and read that so many times. For some reason it rings bells deep in my soul. Another obscure type is The Cheerleader by Ruth Doan Mcdougal.. A very uncomplicated book of growing up, but it again made me stop and think of my teen years and what we do to ourselves in the name of "have to"..
Terry Pratchett is yes, the funniest man on earth. His take on sci fi is an imaginary world carried on the back of the giant turtle through space.His take on banks, the post office, Hollywood, etc etc is funny beyond belief. I laugh and laugh.. and treasure them for when I am down.

[MaryPage]

Jean, I had forgotten about Shana Alexander, but yes, I loved her.  Loved Phil Donahue, too, but cannot put the two together in my mind.  Well, my so-called mind.

And yes, like you I like anything about Eleanor Roosevelt or Eleanor of Aquitaine.  I STILL think about Eleanor, in her seventies and in the twelfth century, for crying out loud, traveling across Europe to get a Spanish bride for her beloved Richard and taking her back across Europe.  Wonder if she ever suspected he was Gay?  I imagine nothing much got past her, and he DID tell the Bishops in a firelit circle while they were camped out in Marseilles prior to taking off on one of their crusades.  Yes, I think she would have heard.  She probably hoped the beautiful young woman would change his perception of things.  Ah, mothers!  But were there EVER two more indomitable women;  and both Eleanors!  Mebbe I should have named one of my daughters -----  oh well, too late.

I would think it highly probable that Marilynne Robinson will go down in history as an outstanding author.  But then again, I am more often wrong in my guesstimates and should never place bets on anything!

[mabel1015j]

I haven't read any M. Robinson, i'll have to look for her.

Another novel with an historical woman character that i liked was Dolley by Rita Mae Brown, about Dolley Madison.

Jean

[MaryPage]

Oh, Jean!  Start with HOUSEKEEPING, which goes waaaaay back.  And she won the Pulitzer, so I am really, really surprised you haven't read her.  She just finished her trilogy last year, and the Bookmarks magazine that came to me last week says that they keep track of all the main magazines and newspapers critic reviews all year and last year her book LILA was voted the number one book of fiction by the majority of them.  In short, it had the most critics listing it as the best book of the year.

[mabel1015j]

I just read about HOUSEKEEPING and will get it tomorrow at the library - if i can get to the library.

[MaryPage]

I am a huge admirer of Beryl Markham, and strongly recommend her WEST WITH THE NIGHT.  An autobiography of a really, really strong woman.

I also loved SAVAGE BEAUTY by Nancy Milford, which is a biography of Edna St. Vincent Millay.

And then there is the power and the glory of HOWEVER LONG THE NIGHT by Aimee Molloy, which is the biography of Molly Melching, the American woman who has been such a heroine to African women and girls.  Bowls you over, that one does.  Made me feel like very small potatoes indeed!

[Steph]

Oh Beryl, I did get to see the PBS interview when she was old.. but I always wanted to be her. So brave... so adventureous, lived life her way indeed. our f2f book is doing Lila in April, I did not like an earlier book, so I have been reluctant to try it.. hmm.

[MaryPage]

I find, Steph, that Marilynne Robinson leaves me feeling somehow disquieted, edgy and uncomfortable.  I do not care much for those annoying tendrils of sensibility, BUT, I really do think she is one of our species most hugely gifted recorders of the human condition.

[Steph]

Its Gilead, that I read. I just looked it up.. So this is one of the characters from that book.. Hm.

[MaryPage]

Yes, Lila is the last of her trilogy:  Gilead, Home, and now Lila.