The Library

[CubFan]

The Library Our library cafe is open 24/7, the welcome mat is always out. Do come in from daily chores and spend some time with us. We look forward to hearing from you, about you and the books you are enjoying (or not). Let the book talk begin here!

*Suggestion Box for Future Discussions
*SeniorLearn's Archives 

Mary Page - I'm with you all the way. I have loved to read for as long as I can remember and it was such a jolt when I started junior high with English classes where we dissected everything we read. That processes continued throughout high school and 48 credits as an English major in college. I kept telling myself that someday I would go back and read the literature for pleasure & I've been working at it. I was smart when we were assigned A Tale of Two Cities in high school because I sat down and read the whole thing before class discussions started & I was able to enjoy it. I have been able to enjoy many books inspite of the over analysis but poetry was effectively ruined for me. As an English teacher & school library media specialist my goal was always to encourage the pleasure of reading. I had one ninth grade class that thoroughly enjoyed Great Expectations because they interpreted the characters in their own way. Thank goodness my principal didn't observe any of those sessions.  Mary

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh my I am aghast at how many are posting here that say they do not like what we do on this site - I am not sure what the plan is - to take over the site maybe - or shut us down  - I am serious I am trying to figure it out - we have had so many collage professors as book discussion leaders and so many authors who joined us that I am confused as to why even the lack of manners shown here to find fault with what has been the cornerstone of this web site for almost 20 years.

I think you have to look at the whole picture, and I do not see posts here for two days taking everything into account.

Would you prefer we close down and y'all create a book group that does not find the underlying meaning in a book?  if so it would save a few providing this experience on Senior Learn hours and hours of time as they not only set everything up but do the best job I know of keeping us safe from all these who daily attempt to take over the site or grab our names from Russia to Nigeria and many groups in between. Or the many who attempt to rail on about some issue or another that all sorts of efforts are used daily to keep us safe from that kind of intrusion.

There is tons of background work that is maybe once in while given a shout by us in the Library of Thanks but there is not a daily attitude of gratitude - I cannot believe what I am reading as if attending a social function and outloud so everyone can hear, in plain site of the hostesses and in this case where they can read how below the salt is the plan for this site. Talk about rude.

Our focus is on the fact that we have extra ordinary folks leading us - why Ginny alone is not only a collage professor but took a group of everyday retired folks with no knowledge of another language and guided them, taught them Latin so that the group is now winning year after year national competitions. Jane never has a day off regardless her travel plans as she keeps this site clear of so many disruptive forces it would boggle your mind to glimpse what she handles plus help any of us that need help with our headings and she is the one who uploads and closes and archives our discussions, making sure it all happens on time on the date announced so that sometimes she has to arrange to upload or take down a discussion when the clock strikes midnight. Then there is Marcie who not only collects all the blurbs about what is going on but coordinates them into a readable email to send out to all the participants that are signed up with Senior Learn. And then to make sure the announcements of discussions are in their proper places.  All so we can have what started this book group - to find the underlying message in a story.     

Over the years we have had many who attempted to suggest their viewpoint of how a book was to be read and discussed was the way and the only way - I am thinking of a couple of women, one from Egypt and the other a Muslim, not sure where she was from, who talked about many, many, many grandfathers who lived anyplace from Afghanistan to Palestine - one was known in villages all over Afghanistan for his ability to ride horses another never got lost in the desert another was this and that and it went on but the disruption was we could never read a book without her having her religious opinion about pleasing Allah through the precepts given by Mohammad - her values as expressed by her religion became as it were the sum total of how a book was considered. We endured for about a year with more and more grandfathers popping up to help show us how this outlook was the correct outlook. 

I had another example of how a personal moral viewpoint can be a hindrance to folks trying to do what y'all are now finding fault with - to analyze a story - it became an unpleasant experience and memory of how to get through and not loose those who could differentiate between their values and the underlying story which is the basis of how we discuss a book on Senior Learn - We were reading a book about the Mitford Girls and their WWII connections that included two of them having an abortion and then we continued in this vein reading a book of diaries that included a line of letters - the story told in the letters was about a young French women during WWII who could speak English, Dutch, German and Spanish - on her bicycle she would ride from Northern France to the Netherlands and sneaking out young Jews - some right in front of the noses of the Germans by setting up a long distance bike race - she took them sometimes through Belgium and France to the coast, sometimes she got them into Denmark where a ship took them out to seas etc. She became a part of an English third front and spent a week in England being trained - while there she had an affair with a pilot - came back where now she not only was sneaking Jews out of western Europe but was a messenger between Resistance groups. Realized she was pregnant and had an abortion.

There was one in the group so outraged at her having the abortion that she could not see the meaning of the abortion which was that she gave up everything - her life - living on the run - barely taking care of her health to get these folks out of harms way and to do what she could to assist the defeat of the Nazis that anything that was an extension of herself was eliminated.  All is death including the pilot lover who was killed in a raid over Germany.  This was not about personal or religious values but symbolic of the extent the author used to show a drive for 'right' that is all encompassing and to show how life is sacrificed for the opportunity of life for others and that there is no easy path to choose one value over another however, only a few, a very few stayed and saw the story through and of course the group did not want to risk being polite rather than digging in so it disbanded.

In order to save a group we cannot use our personal values as the 'end all, be all' while analyzing a story we have to see it in context with the entire story since the climax of any story is seldom if ever in the first chapters or about a single readers life experience or the values of one group - those values may play a part in seeing an aspect of conflict but the conflict is not the meaning of a story. Here in our discussions on SeniorLearn we turn to the experiences of those who have seen us through many of the major issues we have had on this site to help us bring a discussion back to taking the entire story into account.

Now it sounds like some of you think you are better able to do all these tasks or that if we never discussed a book and only indicated it was a nice read we would avoid all of this - there are many book discussions who enable a short two or three sentence summation of a readers experience reading a book so that is can be considered nice or good versus throw it away it was a horror with no explanation as to why it was a horror or why it was good - SeniorNet nor Senior Learn has never analyzed a book on the surface - we have always dug deep looking for the meaning - we have always used the principles of Literature that most of us learned in High School to read and yes, we have had rudeness on this site but not to this degree -

I am shocked and appalled and probably should not even have bothered to give any background or explanation - but somewhere I keep thinking there is goodness and gracefulness and an eagerness to learn that we may have to be reminded and enlightened again what this site is about and the volunteers, who keep it going are all about. 

This site will only be as upbeat and as positive as you make it and if that is too much for you now that say so - we can make it a private site that only those who want to participate can get in.

[BarbStAubrey]

It appears to be so easy to talk about an attack on planned parenthood but it is OK to attack Senior Learn - amazing... Please just say it - if you do not want what is offered than say it and we can make other arrangements -

[maryz]

Barb, I did not get that feeling from the comments at all.  Folks were just talking about different ways of enjoying a book.  I didn't hear any criticism of the web site or the discussions.  And we DEFINITELY appreciate all the hard work that goes into maintaining the site and trying to "herd" this group of book-loving cats.

I hate that you heard personal criticism from the comments, because I don't think that's what was meant at all.

[BarbStAubrey]

OH --- I did not hear anything positive or in gratitude and I know no one wants to read someone blowing but enough...! MaryZ your better nature shines - and yes, I honor that...

[CubFan]

BarbStAubrey -

I did not intend for my comments to be taken as a criticism of the in depth book discussions done by this group or any other group. I was simply stating the fact that for me I do not enjoy book dissection and agree with Mary Page's comments.  I therefore choose not to take part in those discussions but I have always read others comments and look for new authors and titles in the other forums. There is far more to this site than just the monthly in-depth book discussion groups. All of the other discussions are more general in nature so there is room for everyone and all types of thoughts. No one is trying to take over or close down the site. I thought that the site does a good job of providing a variety of opportunities to meet the needs of everyone. I am so sorry that you have been offended and take my comments and others personally. I will refrain from making comments in the future.   Mary

[nlhome]

I thought we were discussing book clubs and how they are different and how we prefer them one way or another. I don't belong to book clubs because the "assigned" reading makes me want to do anything but read that book. Perhaps, like Mary, that's a carryover from college English classes. Or maybe just being contrary, because sometimes the same thing happens when I finally get a book from inter-library loan and then I can't get started on it because I feel obligated to read it.

But the discussions on this site are more open, and even if I don't participate I  enjoy reading them. It's good to get others perspectives.

Now poetry, that is much easier for me to dig into and look for themes, symbolism, etc. The specific words chosen and the structure and rhythm are so important.

Perhaps that's why I often prefer short stories - the author has to put so much thought into individual words and descriptions to tell the story concisely.

Literature, both prose and poetry, is like art - the meaning is in the eye of the beholder.

[PatH]

Barb, I don't think that is an accurate representation of what people are trying to say here, or how they feel about the site.  If someone didn't think the site was worthwhile, they just wouldn't come into it.  And we have always had a dual nature--the in-depth discussions of specific books which are the heart of the site, and the more general discussions--Fiction, Non-Fiction, Mystery, Science Fiction, Books into Movies, where people share what they have been reading, and what they liked or didn't like.  Plus The Library, a kind of catch-all for everything.  Some people like one side, some the other, and some both, but expressing a preference for one or the other isn't necessarily meant as an attack on SeniorLearn.

We have never tried to exclude anybody, and the only people who have been banned from access are the myriad spammers, and one or two people who persisted in using horribly x-rated language.  I have always been impressed with the quality of the people who are attracted to this site, and the feelings of friendship and camaraderie that it produces.

[BarbStAubrey]

All I know is when attending a party you do not say in front of the hostess or even to another at the party I do not like the cake or main course - if you do not like something you would say I do not like this but I like this or that - it is manners - saying something you do not like in the presence of those putting on the party is rude... and it has been going on - oh I do not like and will not join - that is a downer for those who then have to run the gauntlet to join what others have given a thumbs down instead of simply passing the opportunity by without saying anything - enough - there are many who have good intentions that post on this site but it has gotten out of hand - I do not think it necessary to copy all these negative remarks that have been filling up the library since yesterday - I am hoping we have enough manners to realize yes, there is embarrassment because no one wants to be called out - but it just has to stop... Frankly this show of bad manners is not let's quick look at who said what but the over all of reading one post after the other announcing how the cornerstone - the feature - of this site since its conception is flawed for them - fine - then why not come on here and say what it is that y'all do like and enjoy - the negativity in the Library is not fun and plain rude. 

[Jonathan]

Barb, my sorrow was as great as your indignation, after reading about the problems some people have with book discussions. But I'm comforted by the line at the bottom of CubFan's post:

'No two persons ever read the same book.' Edmund Wilson.

Every reader's judgment is unique and worthy of consideration. Pity the poor author who, as often as not, is being chanellled by her characters. Even Dickens admitted that he wrote down what he heard from his people. An author has to respect the reader's judgment. And some have admitted as much.

'Who shall be the master? The writer or the reader?' Denis Diderot

'One must be an inventor to read well.' Emerson

'For the desire to read, like all the other desires which distract our unhappy souls, is capable of analysis. Virginia Woolf

'Read in order to live.' Flaubert

The unhappiest authors may well be the ones whose books are never discussed.

[MaryPage]

I am so sorry, Barbara and Everyone.  So very sorry. It never occurred to me that I might be offending anyone, nor that I was describing ANYthing about this site!  Rather, I was thinking about some book clubs in real life, not cyber space, that I have tried to be a part of, only to give up in personal anguish over that not being how I wanted to go about the matter of enjoying my books.  And I was expressing my very own, very personal emotional reasons for not feeling those groups, often involving people I knew and liked and had as community friends, worked FOR ME!  I do beg the forgiveness of you all.  I will, in future, be very careful not to describe the ways in which I do or do not experience the world of reading.  Books are now, and have been all of my long life, a most important source of consolation and joy, and the very LAST thing I wish to be is contentious in any way.

[Jonathan]

I would like to propose a book for discussion. A History of Reading, by Alberto Manguel. That's where I got my quotes. He also reports an inscription found in the library of the monastery of San Pedro, in Barcelona:

'For him that steals, or borrows and returns not, a book from its owner, let it change into a serpent in his hand and rend him. Let him be struck with palsy, and all his members blasted. Let him languish in pain crying aloud for mercy, and let there be no surcease to his agony till he sing in dissolution. Let bookworms gnaw at his entrails in token of the Worm that dieth not. And when at last he goes to his final punishment, let the flames of Hell consume him for ever.' p244

We certainly have had lively discussions along the way. Heaven forbid that an author may have felt that it had been stolen from her (or him) in the process.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh Mary Page I am so glad you said what you have said - there are many of us who see it is rude to find fault without sharing the positive about those discussions that work for you - and yes, we have all been a part of a group or party that we just did not enjoy the experience for whatever the reason

As to our site - manners suggest in the same sentence or next sentence as you find fault you share what you admire  - the fault finding has been going on for months - I do not like and I will not join - not even that, I will skip this time - fine, then do not join but we need to hear a positive phrase rather than the entire party is trash.

I just cannot imagine receiving an invention that for any reason you cannot attend the event, even if you think the guest will be a bore by saying outloud so that the hostess can hear - no, I do not like your parties or how you serve your goodies. You may just not show up or say you have another engagement even if the engagement is with your own TV or taking your dog for a walk but you just do not suggest that the Hostess who is putting all they have into their party even if it is not to your liking that they are missing what you prefer without at least complementing to make sure the Hostess feels valued by remarking about what you do like. 

Thank you thank you - MaryPage - yes, we all put up with experiences not to our liking and it is easy to spill those thoughts when posting - it is just that one negative post leads to the next and it becomes an avalanche.

OK Jonathan you are on - need to find a copy of A History of Reading by Alberto Manguel - had not heard of the book nor the author - haha let bookworms gnaw at his entrails - oh my that is being damned isn't it - well he sure let's us know how he feels about not returning a book to its owner - haha I guess I feel the same way about rudeness given my outburst here today.

[Tomereader1]

Nobody said that we did'nt like what we did here in senior learn on book discussions.  Nobody.  We just were offering our comments about how we like to discuss, or how our f2f clubs discuss.  Never did anyone say they wanted to "attack" Senior Learn.  Where did you get that idea?

[Frybabe]

I like Jonathan's suggestion. I need to find out if the library (or the Phila Free Library) has it.

[Frybabe]

Sigh. My library doesn't have it. PFL only has print. While I was looking, I discovered that he also wrote a book called The Library at Night. I love books about libraries and books.

[ginny]

I don't see too much point in keeping this going, Tomereader, since everybody is now happy, but if you insist:

Nobody said that we did'nt like what we did here in senior learn on book discussions.  Nobody.

How would you interpret this, Tomereader?

And our leaders got the author to become aware of our discussion.  And she responded, and I can remember laughing my head off at one of her comments.  Mind, she was highly gratified that we were reading and discussing HER book and much of what she said showed that appreciation of us and enriched our reading experience.  The comment I laughed at, and dang it but I hate this old age obscuring of the details, as I can remember exactly where I was sitting at a computer and being so tickled, she said she had never previously known that she had meant all of the things that some of us were getting out of the story she had written!

Basically, that is what I mean about some book clubs.

That looks to me,  in the context of all  the negative  comments on close reading, that one of our  book discussions is being held up as an example of ridicule,  the point also  being made that the book author herself is joining in.

Is that not how it looks to you?

The person who wrote this has apologized.

It's over.

[JoanK]

I was the person involved inn that incident. We were reading the Jane Austen Club and I asked the author (Karen Joy Fowler) if the dog was symbolic of something or other. She answered: oh, I never thought of that! What a good idea. Of course it is.

I thought that was hilarious: a perfect example of manners (of not making me feel like an idiot when I talk like one, as I often do) and of why I like this site so much. We are all bumbling through good books together, each in our own way, and my dreaded English Lit teacher isn't going to show up and give me an F even if I say something stupid (which I often do). As long as we respect and like each other, we all get A's, and we all get to bring our own personalities to the book. Within the bounds of friendship and respect, there is no right or wrong way.

I'm with those who feel that many High School lit teachers turn students off of books -- "if you don't see it in MY terms, go stand in the corner". Some book discussions are like that too. I don't think anyone here meant to imply that Seniornet is like that: indeed, the incident above is a perfect example of how it isn't.

[mabel1015j]

As many high school history teachers turn off students by making them memorize dates and battles! When i taught college history, i talked a lot about people's motivations for decisions they made, what their families and childhoods were like, the influences they had and social as well as political and military history. In every semester some one, or more, would say "why didn't they teach history like this in public school? I would have liked it."

I have always, including this week, been pleased with the discussions on SL and with the varieties of the way people perceived the books and the stories. I'm an advocate of the sixties slang "different strokes for different folks!" I think that makes the world and the people in it much more interesting than if we were all alike and all agreed on things. That's the reason i like group discussions.

I love the "author story". I suppose many authors have that surprise come to them, that readers interpret ideas that the author hadn't considered. 😀😀


Jean

[Steph]

I just remember the book about shells and  such from England. We seemed to disgress into types of shells,etc and exactly where on what beaches.. They are fossils,not shell (oops). Oh well. I join if I want and don't if I don't.. Love to hear about new and different books and authors.

[LarryHanna]

MaryPage, were you or any of you participating on SeniorNet when Teresa Bloomingdale was participating.  She was an author and her books, which had a lot of humor as did her postings, revolved around her large family?  She was such a joy and I hope I remember the name correctly.   

[marjifay]

Who are doing all the griping about this forum, Barb?  Not SrLearn members, I hope.

Marj

[PatH]

It occurs to me that anyone who hasn't read The Jane Austen Book Club, but has since become an Austen fan, would enjoy the book.  It's lighthearted and fun, and each chapter in the middle of the book has a scene that's a modern day version of a scene from one of Austen's books.

Fowler not only joined the discussion, but, since she happened to be doing a book signing in DC about the time we finished, she met some of us for tea after the signing--JoanP, me, the late lamented Deems, and her daughter deems2.  That was a lot of fun; she was so pleasant and friendly and gracious, and easy to talk with.

[BarbStAubrey]

One of my favorite's was when Jeff Shapiro joined us when we read his Renato's Luck - he got right in the middle of it posting several times a week and then sharing in a letter that accompanied his new book that we never were able to fit into our schedule - his letter told of how his mom was swimming with the Dolphins on the west coast of South America although, she lived in California which is where he had lived till he moved to Italy and married a girl he met in Tuscany. He was so intimate sharing his life experiences with us in that discussion including his divorce that they were attempting to avoid when they moved to Italy but ended up divorcing and he moved back to Italy and in time met the women who became his wife. I forget her name but she emailed to several of us a couple of the Italian recipes she took pride in preparing -

We need to remember these stories because one of the focus questions for our Wild Days memory starting next week is to share memories of discussions with authors - forgot which are the dates for that topic but not the first two days for sure.

[ginny]

OH authors, you're going to do authors. I can't wait.  We all  have our faves, and what a privilege it has been to associate with them.

I'm going to have to plump for Wally Lamb, whom we met at the National Book Festival in Washington DC. Never will forget his mentioning our Prison Library Project on 60 Minutes.

I'm sure  some of you live a lot more high toned lives than I do, hahaha, for instance,  I'm sure you didn't just come in from feeding the chickens like I did,  but that just  blew my mind.  We were very much just another online book group at that point. Nobody took the online seriously. At all. He participated in the discussion and copied out our remarks as we read each woman's story in his book, and printed our responses and questions  for them to see to encourage them.  They then wrote another book.

The Prison Library Project gave everybody on  SeniorLearn and SeniorNet, whether or not they participated in a book club discussion or enjoyed the genre discussions, the chance to be part of that. And donate you all did. That spread into the Native American children's project which also did splendidly.

I think something like... I can't recall the number, it was over 3,000 books, or much more.... and involved the Pen/ Faulkner Awards before it was thru and they took over the shipping to Niantic Federal Correctional  Facility in Connecticut and also involved the SC prisons and GA prisons.


Wally Lamb is a saint of a person, and a privilege to have met and corresponded with. We've got photos, too.

Will never forget him.

About time we had another author  here, huh?

__________________________________________

I've finished Wolf Hall late last night, and think I'll reread Bring Up the Bodies again. I can't seem to get away from Mantel's Cromwell. To THINK how I fought against that!

___________________________________________

The Let Me Tell You:  new stories by Shirley Jackson has arrived and it's a wonder. Her children compiled it in her memory. If one is a Shirley Jackson fan it's...almost indescribable to read new material by her, so long deceased.   A new book is due out on her next year.  I even love the introduction. hahahaa Probably the publishing event of the year. (Until Hilary Mantel finishes the third Cromwell book).  And I found out about it in Book Page, free at the local library.

There is nothing that equals the luxury of sinking into a good book, to me. I am enjoying having the free time to indulge myself.

Unless it's a good conversation on that same book.

______________________________

Larry I remember Teresa!  What a wonderful person she was. Famous author, there she was, one of us. A book discussion leader before death took her too soon. A lovely person.

I also remember YOUR Book Exchange, where people exchanged books for the postage. How many years did that run!!?? Do you remember how many books were involved? There were a LOT.

 Are you enjoying your new home?

Remember when we went to the SeniorNet Convention in Delaware? (Was it Delaware, where was it?) and we all got lost? If it hadn't been for you, we'd still be walking down that dangerous looking road.  Didn't we take a cruise in the harbor?

I'm feeling very nostalgic all of a sudden. We've come a long long way.

[Steph]

I loved the book exchange and missed it so much, that I joined Paperback Swap.com.. after it closed.
Wally Lamb made his prison women so real to me. Don't think I had ever met anyone who had been in prison and it made me look at why and how for women. I watch orange is the new black and think of him often.

[LarryHanna]

Jenny, I know we had at least 2,500 books exchanged in the old SeniorNet Book Exchange and perhaps more.  I just checked at the SeniorNet site to see if the old discussions had been archived but guess when they got rid of the discussions they must have dumped the discussion files as well.  I enjoyed keeping that discussion up very much as well as doing the background work on several of the books other discussion areas.  The convention you refer to was in Wilmington, N.C. and the seven volunteer hosts who attended were sort of an island to ourselves as the convention was really geared around the Learning Centers.  I didn't become involved in the Learning Center in my local area until right after that convention.  The cruise was a dinner cruise on the Wilmington river as it was a part of the convention.   We did have a good time. 

[ginny]

Me, too, Steph.  With both  things you said. Tho I expect with the current price of postage that might get expensive now. That's one thing about an e-book, you don't have to dispose of it if it's not a keeper. 

But I really like the feel of a book in my hands, it's also  a very tactile experience, to me. The Cromwell book, for instance sort of makes a crackly sound when the pages open tho it's a new paperback book, hard to explain but very nice if you're a bibliophile.

Larry,  I don't know what you are eating for breakfast but I need some of it, obviously your mind is a lot sharper than mine! What a labor of love that  Book Exchange was. Like most of the discussions and initiatives here actually.

Yes you did do background work! I wonder how many people know you used to be known as the Father of the Books. One of our first Co-Hosts.   I never will forget your teaching me how to FTP. That was the funniest thing in the world (I am sure not to you) but I still laugh about it,  and your incredible patience was legendary.


Wilmington NC, not Delaware!! We DID have a good time, didn't we? I don't have one of the many photos that was taken. Were there only 7 of us there from the website?  I can name 4.

I don't think SeniorNet ever thought too much of the website. I think had it not been for Marcie Schwarz they never would have. It's amazing how long it actually  lasted. Oddly enough they still use some of our Latin student's testimonies about the Latin classes in their advertising now on their current display page  for their own classes.  (And they have been told).

__________________
Jonathan, that looks like a good book! I was surprised when I got to the end of Wolf Hall to see that Hilary Mantel recommended a book which she apparently used in writing her trilogy about Cromwell.

In talking about when the first of the year was in England, in  1522 (and it's not when we think), she notes that George Cavendish

after the death of Wolsey, retired to the country, and in 1554, when Mary came to the throne, began a book, Thomas Wolsey, Late Cardinal, His Life and Death. It has been published in many editions, and can be found online-in an edition with original spelling. It is not always accurate, but it is a very touching, immediate and readable account of Wolsey's career and Thomas Cromwell's part in it...

That sounds like something Frybabe would like, she's really into history from old books online. I had no idea that it was available. I'm going to see if I can find it.

That sort of trough that one gets in when one finishes immersion in a really good book, especially if it's long,  (or two of them as the case may be in the Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies),  really leaves a vacant hole, doesn't it? You miss the experience badly. One feels, no matter what one has to do, at loose ends till you can get immersed in another one. But the one you just finished has made you picky and nothing seems to live up to the first.

How do those of you who have experienced this solve this problem?

Anybody reading something that they just can't put down?

[ginny]

And the Big Debate is in an hour. I bet it has record viewers.

[ginny]

What did you think about the debate? If you watched it?

For my part  to mention one aspect, I thought the moderators who were presenting and asking the questions would have been better suited to have been on some kind of game show.   I thought  the off the cuff comments the woman moderator kept making ----I don't know if she realized her mike was on or what--- especially at the end--- seemed distracting. 

I guess I didn't see any "gravitas" among the moderators.  Not that that matters, or was the point of the evening, and some of their questions were good,  but I think it did detract,  especially in the woman's case,  from the event.   I wonder if I'm only one?

In edit:   I must be, because the early reports I can see this morning are carrying on about the wonderful moderators and how "brilliant" or tough they were ---just wonderful.  Apparently I'm a little out of touch. 

[Frybabe]

I've been focusing on book/magazine art lately. One or two pieces of Arthur Rackham's art look familiar, but not near as much as N.C. Wyeth's works. Info about Rackham and his art: http://www.peterharrington.co.uk/blog/the-golden-age-of-illustration-arthur-rackham/ Do you remember some of these?

Good morning all, I watched the 5pm debate. Carli F. did a bang up job. My problem with Carli is that she practically ran !!&T into the ground (IMO) before they got rid of her, and later, she got fired from HP. I had stock in ATT at the time of her tenure. After reading the shareholders proposals (a whopping 12 that year) I realized that, unlike most, these were serious concerns/complaints. It was one of the very few stocks I sold before holding it over a year. 

As for the "main event", I watched maybe 10 minutes or until Kelly asked Trump about his remarks about women, or certain women. At that point I was too tired to continue. None of the few clips I saw this morning gave me any better idea about what they stood for that I didn't already know.

[Steph]

I would not watch.. but I have noted on Today and others that Trump seems to be tooting hhis horn loudly at best. He has said and done all the things that he was called on and simply does not care. I truly do not get the loud attention he is receiving.
Ginny,,, I do so want the Shirley Jackson book. I have read every thing she ever wrote and a biography as well. A big favorite of mine. I may even buy the hard cover.. and that is rare for me.

[BarbStAubrey]

I absolutely hate, yes, hate this part of the election process - I would be much happier with the back room politics that chose one or two candidates without this so called debate that year after year to me is nothing but an embarrassment. All the candidates looking for attention ow la la  and the media treating it all as a horse race on the national downs.

Frybabe in your investing have you invested in 'water'? I am finding this the most fascinating and complex area of investing - there are water districts after water districts and than rivers that have riparian rights - and the question becomes which entity has jurisdiction and if you want to build a well in some water districts since, it is on private property private, land rights are all that matters where as, in other water districts there is legal control over both ground water and surface water.

And then attempting to measure the available ground water given how in some areas where the soil was dug 25 and more feet deep to extract the gravel which affects how water peculates and how the number of private wells can affect the amount of water in a nearby creek, stream or even a river. And then, in this part of the country land rights can go back to the King of Spain which affects water rights - In Texas alone there are over 500 water districts.

I met a young women who is an Stock Annalist for investing in water - oh to be able to live my life over - the more she spoke the more fascinated I became - Evidently ground water is considered our national bank and as we pull water out of the ground we are spending investment capitol so that even draining a lake or river is considered to be less damaging then tapping into an aquifer or any underground source of water. All this is considered when rating the stock value to an investor. I was blown away - never even dawned on me that our water was a commodity that attracted investors.

I had ordered and hope to settle in this weekend with  Sharing the Common Pool: Water Rights in the Everyday Lives of Texans (River Books, Sponsored by The Meadows Center for Water and the Environment), by Charles R. Porter Jr.

Only saw Porter (he goes by that name) about a 2 months ago - he is a respected Broker in the Austin Area and I had no idea he was knee deep or it looks like hip deep into water - his explanations for anything makes the most complicated easy and so I am expecting nothing less from his book. Looks like he has another that is about water rights between the legalities we still struggle with in this state between Spanish land grants and the US legal system.

Who knew - I sure didn't that there are investors behind every glass of water we take from our faucet even if from a personal well since it falls somehow within the jurisdiction of a water district system.  Hearing about some of this I get a mental picture of underground connections that remind me of the body's blood system. Haha I wonder if each of us have blood rights - without blood we are dead and so the mind goes off on a tangent how law affects our very blood - now there would be a topic for a futuristic fantasy mystery. Never mind the vampire type horror stories. 

[Dana]

I thought the debate was riveting entertainment.  The Telegraph said the only one who looked presidential in any way was Bush.  But that's the Brits.  I love their take on US politics.  Always a little bit out of touch.  Don't they know that looking presidential was hardly the issue last night....hurray for Trump I say, I hope he keeps going with the wild comments for a bit. 

[ginny]

hahaha, Dana

Almost as good as a British session of Parliament.

I agree, Stephanie, I've read everything she wrote, too.  This new biography might be different, I note in the forward that the children say it's a shame that Stanley Hyman's works (her husband) have been forgotten.  I got a very negative opinion of him from the last biography of her. Apparently not quite so bad. The book also has her drawings in it. It's obviously a labor of love by her children.

She died so young!

Barbara, I did not know that wells were part of a water district jurisdiction. They could get in a lot of trouble  that way, considering what is IN well water, perhaps. It amazes me that our well water when we moved here, to me, had a strange taste. Nobody but me noticed it but I had it tested. It  was a tedious process, too.  Nothing came up. I had it tested again specifically  for organic pesticides and sure enough a well known pesticide turned up.  I can't recall the name of the chemical now, but  I did keep somewhere the test, it was 35 years ago, was in the well water. They kept saying it wasn't enough to matter. How did it get there? Do they really think I would drink that? It must have been from the chemicals they used to spray in the vineyard. USED being the operative word.

I haven't had a glass of it since. And that's been 35 years. But we did get city water the very second it was available out here.

I saw some kind of documentary about the pioneers going out West and it pointed out that all the early photos of the settlers showed them near their well because without water they could do nothing. How much we take for granted!

[ginny]

By the way, I was wrong. I found a report to the Library of Congress's Center for the Book which we are members of (see their website),  in 2014, which states this:

..... in 2014....... 7,000+ books donated to Charity through the Prison Library Project and to Native American Reservations....

For some reason I kept thinking it was closer to 9,000 because I kept hoping we'd make 10,000 but if it said 7,000+ in 2014, there haven't been any donations since then that we are involved in. The Pen/ Faulkner had taken over the shipping to Niantic the last I heard on their own.  There may be other arrangements now.

What really surprised me was the long list of "Prison Library Projects" the online now sports.

But it's certainly more than 3,000 books which I originally quoted. I knew it was an impressive figure.

[BarbStAubrey]

A tidbit on wells - some water districts are very hands on and others Laissez-faire even in this state with water in many places at a premium - every state is different and most require an inspection but this is where the laissez-faire attitude and budgeting is as varied as the state. Here the water district to the east of us Lost Pines Ground water has more clout than even the Lower Colorado River Authority that supplies Austin and the surround area with both water and electricity. The LCRA owned a piece of land right on the river - some 200+ acres and had to get permission to dig a well that was only granted for a certain depth and gallons removed from the ground water - it is amazing to see districts that overlap and who has what rights - and what city versus state authority over sees ground water versus surface water. Who knew...

[Frybabe]

Barb, I've been following groundwater issues, off and on, since my days at Rodale Institute. While there I used to research and answer letters, mostly from Mid-Western farmers, about pesticide and nitrogen contamination in well water. That was around 25 years ago. My first "water stock" was not a water company, but Millipore. I choose it at the time because they supplied scientific and commercial fine filters for water supply systems. I liked the idea of supporting a company that did lots of R&D in the area of providing means to clean water.

My current water stocks are American Water Company (AWK) and Aqua America (WTR). American Water Company has ASR projects and operations, mostly in California I think.

My last major foray into ASR research, development and operations was for a paper I did for my Technical Writing class three or four years ago. One of the examples I used in the paper is the one that the city of Wichita, KS has been developing. Your question prompted me to see how it is doing. Not so well, apparently. It's not that the system isn't working, it just isn't producing as much as they had originally expected. One of their stated objectives is to keep old salt brine plumes in the Arkansas River out of the public water system, which not only draws on groundwater but, when necessary, water from the Little Arkansas River. http://www.wichita.gov/Government/Departments/PWU/UtilitiesDocuments/ASR%20ARTIFICIAL%20RECHARGE%20PROCESS.pdf   For those interested in AR and ASR, the EPA has lots of info. http://water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/aquiferrecharge.cfm

Water is not the only thing that is being stored with injection wells. Here is the EPA's well classification system. http://water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/wells.cfm

[Steph]

Don't invest in water, but do invest in pipelines.. Interesting for me.. and of course utilities, but they are not as profitable as they used to be. In Florida, water is controlled by state through political entities. Our governor made sure that the ordinary citizens who used to have rights  on the water policies, no longer do. So in the county I live, even though our water is getting more and more expensive and scarce, a large commercial water company has won the right to draw more and more water from our aquifer.. So when you see Niagra, think Florida, not New York

[Frybabe]

One of the major aquifer problems along the developed coastline of America is encroachment of salty water that moves in to take the place of the fresh water that is drawn from the coastal aquifers. The AS and ASR wells along the coast are being used to combat this in New Jersey, Florida and California. There are probably others. Florida has been undergoing a major effort to use ASRs to hold back this encroachment. Salt water and fresh water do not readily mix together.  Also, when "dirty" water is added to an aquifer, it must be partially treated. Any remaining treatment needed downstream comes when it is retrieved for human consumption.

Supplying adequate drinking water is a real challenge in many areas because of population overgrowing the ability of the aquifers to keep up with the demand. Water seepage from rain, etc. is a very slow process. ASR systems seek to recycle water into the aquifers faster than natural processes to slow down if not stop the depletion. Barb can probably attest to ground subsidence caused when groundwater and aquifer supplies dry up or get low. I assume this can also happen when oil and natural gas are pumped out of the ground. Do you know Barb? The focus has been, lately, on small earthquakes from oil and gas extraction, but I thought I saw something the other day about ASR wells doing the same. Must investigate.

Steph, I used to own Williams Co. stock. Paid a nice fat dividend. They, along with a lot of other companies, suffered from the Enron fallout. When I bought the stock they were running fiber optics through the pipelines as well as moving oil, etc. through the pipelines. It was one of the reasons I bought the stock. They were the ones that ran the feeds for the Atlanta Olympics. They sold that part of the business and then spun off their communications business altogether. Williams Communications then proceeded to go bankrupt about a year later. I lost all the stock I received when it was spun off.