The Library

[BarbStAubrey]

The Library Our library  is open 24/7; the welcome mat is always out. Do come in from daily chores and spend some time with us.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ha reminds me of my high school days - book in the living room (before TV), one in my bedroom, another in the Kitchen over the sink so when I washed the dishes I could read and of course one in the bathroom and then one on the back porch so that on my way out regardless walking the dog or my younger brother and sister or leaving for school I had a book to read. Yep, and anything could be a bookmark, a leaf, a blade of grass, an old envelope, a pencil or sometimes just my memory as I'd look at the page number before closing the book. Those were the days...

OK question - has anyone read any of Sharon Kay Penman's books - she writes supposedly very well researched, historical novels about the middle ages and has a Trilogy of Welsh Princesses that I'm contemplating. 

[Tomereader1]

Barb, I think I've read at least one of Penman's books, but it would have been quite awhile ago, and I don't, of course, remember the title.  I do remember that I enjoyed the book.  Love historical novels.

[BarbStAubrey]

thanks tomereader - truly do not need another book just now but I saw one of her books on sale for the Kindle and when I looked I was astonished to see the number of books she has authored all taking place during the middle ages - and so I wondered - have not even heard of her - I'll wait and see if frybabe knows anything about her - she also likes reading historical novels.

[bellamarie]

Barb, you made me giggle about using anything handy for a book mark.  I too, will use what ever is available to mark my page.  I have never read Penman, but I am finding I am appreciating historical stories more and more. 

Well, we Toledoans, woke up to about 5 inches of snow, and it is now sleeting/raining.  I am sitting here wrapped in my throw blanket, pjs, coffee and dog sleeping at my feet, looking out my picture window at the beauty of it.  I am a true northerner, I get so excited for snowfalls.  Yes, it can be hazardous to drivers, but if you take it slow, or wait for the city to snow plow, you really can enjoy winter!  So, now I need to crack open this new book, The Guest Book, by Sarah Blake, which spans from 1935 - the 21st Century/ three generations.  Blake also wrote The Postmistress, which I absolutely loved! 

[Frybabe]

I use a variety of things to mark pages too. One of those are the bookmark length dividers in the LIpton Tea bag cartons.

It is a little late for this to show up, but those who can't get enough of Christmas stories I discovered these. They are part of the Pickwick Papers which I haven't gotten around to reading. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/61193 The illustrations are super.

[Frybabe]

I just finished Vindolanda. Adrian Goldsworthy did a  wonderful job showing what it was like to live in and around a Roman fort at the beginning of Trajan's reign. The spark for this first of his novels was the birthday letter found at Vindolanda. Did you know that they found over 5,500 shoes at the site during excavations? The story itself follows a Centurio Regionarius (Centurion who is on detached service as a criminal investigator, or other military and administrative duties) while he investigates an ambush which quickly leads to suspicions of conspiracy and treason. The battles are at once exhilarating and horrific. Not for the squeamish. The Roman cavalry auxiliaries got quite a workout in this book, too with a nod to the Brigantians, the Dacians (with their dragon standards), and the Spanish units.

I plan on reading the other two in the series. The Encircling Sea once again finds Flavius Ferox and his small group chasing down conspiracies and rumors of war, but this time involving invaders from the sea. Ohhhh, the third one, Brigantia , involves a murder, a summons of London and a trip to the Isle of Mona (Anglesey, Wales), supposedly the last stronghold of the Druids. Forgot to say that Ferox was of the Silure tribes/clans located in South East Wales who fought against the Romans with Caracticus until his defeat. I just love the Welsh connection.

[bellamarie]

I just finished The Guest Book. It was a very interesting book, that gives insight to how the wealthy businesses in the U.S., made money off WW11.  It deals with the prejudices the Jews and blacks dealt with, after going to the prestigious colleges like Harvard, yet wasn't accepted in the jobs they were qualified for.  So much was dealt with in this book, marrying outside your race, elitism, racism, family history and secrets, letting go of generational expectations, etc., etc.  The one person who will stay with me for awhile, is the Grandmother Kitty, the matriarch, a woman with beauty and grace, who followed all the proper etiquette, and taught her daughters and granddaughters to cherish their family summer gatherings at their island in Maine, purchased at the height of the war.  Even though Kitty was not perfect, made mistakes, regretted decisions, tried to right wrongs when opportunities gave her the chance, she is viewed by her family and friends, as someone you want to revere.  It really made me think of how life plays out, and how you find yourself in your aging years, sitting back and realizing, as the author points out..... you are so busy living your life, that you don't realize until you die, is when your story is actually told.  Lots of thought provoking material in this book.

Frybabe, your book and this statement,

"Did you know that they found over 5,500 shoes at the site during excavations?"

made me think of the picture on social media of the thousands of shoes found at Auschwitz 

https://discovercracow.com/auschwitz-photos/

Such incredibly heart wrenching pictures.

[Frybabe]

Oh yes, Bellamarie, now that you mention it, I remember someone posted something about that years ago. I don't think it was the same picture though. For years I thought that all the horrors of the death camps and the dropping of the atomic bombs would be so terrible as to stop anything like that from ever happening again. How naive. The nuclear rattle is being waved again, and genocide and hate crimes are on the upswing again. I suppose somewhere in the world much of this never really stopped. It was just too small scale for people to pay much attention to. And, instant communications now have helped to both report atrocities and spread hateful messages. Unanswerable question of the day. Why do hate and greed spread so much faster than love and compassion?
 

[BarbStAubrey]

My take on the speed of which hate and greed spread compared to love and compassion is two fold -

First, there is more drama to hate and greed - As a kid before any tech when telephones were seldom used and the only mass communication was the radio - this is before TV and if we heard the fire trucks or the police siren everyone - young and old - ran like crazy, kids on bikes, dogs chasing to where ever the problem and we just stood watching - after a bit of time in silence and more and more came to watch in order to fill in the new comers those first on the scene shared which opened the way of low talk and then the opinions started to flow -

Today, I see the same thing without everyone dashing to the scene but rather we depend on photo journalists and now people do not even have to wait to see it on the 6:00 TV news they can keep up with it on their phone. Plus now, not only are these messages passed along in lightening speed but we have ordinary people taking photos of anything unusual that fits their outlook on life - and again - with all the dog and baby photos they still cannot match the overwhelming number of disaster photos regardless a hate crime or a political point of view that rankles someone whose lifestyle is better served with another point of view.

We also have now wealth that allows those orchestrating change to hire folks to push the envelope in their attempt to set up and ultimately bring about change in the community or nation - they know how crowds respond and are using that knowledge to get people to make the public spectacle that draws attention and so, the use of crowd saucing thoughts is as effective as using it to collect funds and even using crowd saucing with a selective few having guns, pitting many against others because they have different thoughts or values is not nearly as expensive as waging war.

As to Greed - I have only learned that all investing and trade between people, even if the profit does not include money is dependent on knowing two things - the basis of all investments and exchange is fear and greed.

I'd heard that as a passing statement but never really stopped to understand - The more I read I had to find out if there was ethical greed - and shocked to realize we are all greedy - we just do not have a good handle on what is greed - most often greed is when we expect more from anything then we are willing to put in either our money, time, energy or knowledge - also we assume the reason for the actions of others without understanding the different mindset that all money is, is a medium of exchange - that money is the result of knowledge and creativity to produce something that benefits the multitude but the greed part was what had me sit up and take notice - this link explains.

https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/origins-of-greed-and-fear/

I also found this book to be enlightening How Rich People Think by Steve Siebold.

And so I saw a scenario that tied it all together - a farmer abandons a field and is willing to sell - one group wants to buy the land as a community project and turn it into a wild space or even a community park with their desire to bring sustenance to the members of the community and to the environment - another smaller group of investors see the land filled with homes and businesses and even room for an entertainment area of either a baseball field or soccer field - architects and builders can utilize the latest innovations in technology, building material which gives them a place now to bring to us the latest knowledge and hire many people to do this, hiring subcontractors from all over the community to lay roads, dig sewers, build the houses etc. New start up businesses can open their offices in this newer addition to the community where there is not the infrastructure as the center of the community and therefore, leasing space is more affordable and the plan will still supply the community with a place to bring sustenance with new trees planted, landscaping and a baseball field etc. and their vision brings money on top of money that supports more people than keeping the area wild.

They are opposite viewpoints on the use of this land - the farmer is no longer the sole 'decider' - the community is split on what to do, each side coming up with more reasons why their choice should win - now we are into winners and losers with even the community governing body getting in the middle because one group on the city council sees the extra property taxes that can allow them to build a new public library and the other group sees the benefit to air quality and keeping the size of the community as it was, even if it does mean fewer residential building sites therefore, bringing more value to those homes already on the ground which will brings in more property taxes.

The split becomes more vicious as sides march in the streets, yell at the City Council members or cause other disruption - we see how this split brings an air of suspicion and anger - it pits friends against friends, neighbors against neighbors even family members against family members - the closer you look at the plans neither plan is perfect and they both logically can explain all the benefits and address the fears that people have and the greed to make things comfortable for those who have lived and loved the community as it was or, those who see the community as a place that can grow.

And then one side blames the other and starts to see some difference they can use to justify why the other side is wrong - the other side is uneducated or they are of a different race or color or religion etc etc. So in time we have conflict and injustice that is easy to inflict on others when there is a crowd against a group that has been minimized because of their differences with the use of the farmers land a sidebar in the conflict.

Been giving it lots of thought and I have about decided as much as everyone talks of peace we have had as much or more war since the beginning and maybe we should accept that is a discipline we should study.

[bellamarie]

Fryabe, 

For years I thought that all the horrors of the death camps and the dropping of the atomic bombs would be so terrible as to stop anything like that from ever happening again.

You would think something as horrible as the Holocaust, would prevent the repeat of this type of devastation, and hatred, but sadly, it has been happening since the beginning of time, and is here present in today's world.

Barb,

My take on the speed of which hate and greed spread compared to love and compassion is two fold -

Greed, being among the seven deadly sins, (pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth) I see greed as the one that triggers hatred.  The mere definition of "greed,"  intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food. displays a narcissistic attitude, which is hate driven. Going one step further....

Envy and greed are like twins. While greed is a strong desire for more and more possessions (such as wealth and power), envy goes one step further and includes a strong desire by greedy people for the possessions of others. Greedy people lack empathy.

I see greed as the deadliest of all, because since the beginning of time when Lucifer tempted Adam and Eve to eat the apple, his whole intent was to show God, he had power over Him.  Power, is a powerful word, power has been the driving force in all wars.  For one leader to control another nation, for one political party to control the people, for one ideology to control all creeds, for one man filled with greed and hate, to control the world.  During this week of March For Life, I can't help but think of the fact since Roe vs Wade passed in 1973 there have been over sixty million abortions worldwide. Twenty-three thousand alone since Jan. 1, 2020 performed by Planned Parenthood.  Margaret Sanger, like Hitler had the same ideology, do away with whoever does not fit into their mindset of worthiness to live....

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. The Nazis, who came to power in Germany in January 1933, believed that Germans were "racially superior" and they wanted to create a “racially pure” state. Jews, deemed "inferior," were considered an alien threat to the so-called German racial community.

During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted and killed other groups, including at times their children, because of their perceived racial and biological inferiority: Roma (Gypsies), Germans with disabilities, and some of the Slavic peoples (especially Poles and Russians). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution

Margaret Sanger,  Sanger said, “Well, I think the greatest sin in the world is bringing children into the world that have disease from their parents, that have no chance in the world to be a human being practically -- delinquents, prisoners, all sorts of things, just marked when they’re born. That, to me, is the greatest sin that people can commit.”
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/zachary-leshin/planned-parenthood-founder-margaret-sanger-greatest-sin-world-bringing

 "No more children should be born when the parents, though healthy themselves, find that their children are physically or mentally defective.”
-- Sanger, Margaret. (1918) When Should A Woman Avoid Having Children? Birth Control Review, Nov. 1918, 6-7, Margaret Sanger Microfilm, S70:807.  https://www.nyu.edu/projects/s...

As long as we have people, who think like this..... we will never overcome hatred.   

[ANNIE]

I just read “The Novel” by James A. Michener.  In spite of it’s having 684 pages, I was spellbound and highly entertained by this book which was about how a book is written and how it gets published.  I had no idea how intricate the process becomes!  The different people involved and their difficult jobs are truly interesting.

Sorry not to be here in the past few weeks. I’m involved in the impeachment proceedings plus I am having some medication problems.  Hopefully things will improve.  I have missed you all!

[BarbStAubrey]

that is how I understood greed also Bellamarie so it was a surprise to see the word defined to include things that I do- like want things to be as they were and when looking for a bargain I am actually saying I want the quality without spending the compensating money, or imagining I have a greater ability to affect a trade to my benefit - never knew that was me being greedy and so now I have to look closer at what we casually label greed

Yes the holocaust was beyond our imagination wasn't it - what mankind will do to obliterate the other side of a dispute is sobering - even the holocaust along with WWII was about Germany wanting more land and wealth for Germans - and so where the land was not for sale Germany marched in and took what they wanted from Jews and well as other nations... I think my next reading project will include books on the history of war - it seems to be a part of my entire life and I'm thinking there is really no time in history where this elusive Peace existed - There must be something here that I feel we are overlooking - there is much about the education, creativity, behavior and sophistication of man that has changed over thousands of years but war, except for how it is waged, is still with us - there has to be something that may not be able to be explained with a short explanation as simply the opposite of peace. 

Even religions waged war and called them 'just' wars - and all the early war heroes we read about are Christian from Arthur and Roland to General Washington, Gen. Pierre Beauregard and Gen. Philip Sheridan. Although many bishops during WWII were sent to the concentration camps there were many especially in Poland and Slovakia who knew and preferred to ignore the plight of the Jews. Recently in Iraq we have Tariq Aziz, who was the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq and a Catholic - Either side of a conflict there are Christian people caught up in war - All this suggests to me religion is sometimes a tool in war as well as a cause for war.

We learn that mankind supports the culture and we have a culture of war and so to better understand I'm wanting to learn more about the history and causes of war - war is really a trade turned violent and learning that all trade are based on fear and greed I have to ask, how am I unknowingly partaking in fear and greed that also, unknowingly supports the culture of war. So far the only ones we read about that escape live separately in caves, secluded mountain tops or monasteries - even secluded mountain tops no longer are safe havens looking at the modern history of the Tibetan Monks.

Many hold up Gandhi as an example at yet, he pushed the envelope where ever and when ever he could - he chose not to use guns or physical aggression but he marched and shamed and was not passive in his fight to free India. Is that what we mean by peace - not good will or a kind society but one that simply does not use tactics that physically hurt or kill another? My head is spinning when I think we do still have to eat and even digging into the earth to plant is an aggressive action and chewing is aggression...

[BarbStAubrey]

Annie thanks for giving us a heads up on the book The Novel - does sound like a worthwhile read. Thanks.

[bellamarie]

Annie, it is so good to hear from you.  Your book sounds interesting.  I am a novice writer, with a few poems published, and have a children's book finished, but have not gotten the nerve to submit it.  I may decide to read your book. I hope all gets straightened out with your medication.

I too have been deeply involved in the impeachment proceedings.  I tape everything on my dvr, and then fast forward through much.  I watched the two prior hearings, before this trial began. I was appalled how the House refused to allow the Republicans the right to call any witnesses, or to question the witnesses Adam Schiff had brought in for depositions. I was astounded at how all the witnesses Schiff and Nadler brought to testify were not fact witnesses, rather they gave their opinions, thoughts, perceptions, and their suppositions of what they felt. I decided to not watch any more of the three day opening of the House after I realized the House Managers were being repetitive and redundant.  I look forward to President Trump's lawyers rebuttal, and defense beginning tomorrow.  We all know the outcome will be an acquittal, since the Senate has the majority, so all this time and money does seem ridiculous. I do hope it ends after this week, so I can watch my daily shows they have hijacked.  lol

Barb, I don't think I have a greedy bone in my body.  I live with so little, and want for so less.  I am happy for others with more, and I certainly have no desire for power, to control anyone.  If anything I am passionate about social justice, and will stand up when I see injustice.  I teach my CCD students we must be inclusive, and respect people's differences. 

I was at my granddaughter's varsity basketball game last night.  She plays for Central Catholic, and her team was beating the opposing team from a small rural town about an hour or so away, by quite a bit. While watching the game, I overheard some of the parents from the opposing team having a rather heated back and forth, with a father of one of our girls.  He was being very rude, and the parents were asking him to be quiet, and stop being so nasty.  He proceeded to tell them they were the visiting team, so they should go sit in the visitor's section, if they don't like what he is saying.  They obviously had no idea there was a visitors section.  He continued to harass them, which was beginning to frustrate me.  After the game was over, and he had pointed out to the visiting parents, that his "freshman" daughter was playing on the varsity, still blasting their team, I had heard enough.  These parents actually looked more like grandparents, and I felt very sorry for the way this father had treated them.  I got up to put my coat on, turned to them, and told them, I am very sorry for the way he has acted, that we are a Catholic Christian school, and his behavior was not representative of us.  They thanked me for saying I was sorry. 

I told my hubby on the drive home, that it really hurt me, to see the arrogance and rudeness of that father, who we have known for years throughout our granddaughter playing basketball, all through grade school and we played against this father's daughter's team.  He was a volunteer coach back then, and was a hothead, and now the girls are on the same team in high school, so we have to put up with him yelling at his daughter while she is playing if she fouls, misses a shot, or looses the ball. I told my hubby, I just was teaching my CCD students that we should speak up, and help others who are being bullied, made to feel left out, or are being disrespected, and here I found myself in this situation, where I could not remain silent.  I am sure that father was not happy hearing me apologize to those visitors, for HIS bad behavior.  I hope he went home and thought about it.  Why can't we all just get along?

[ginny]

Ann, how good to see you here! I hope that your meds issue resolves itself. Michener is always a great read, isn't he? I love his books, and will look for that one. Stephen King also wrote  a wonderful book on Writing as well.  I used to think Michener's   Fires of Spring, which was said to be autobiographical, was the best book I read as a teenager, along with Marjorie Morningstar. Not a teen any more and am going to let those two rest in the wonderful place they have in my heart.

That long list of top 100 books had a great many by Sinclair Lewis, who was a fabulous writer. I once thought his Arrowsmith was the best book I read, too, as a youngster,  and am afraid to read it again. I think his language now is quite dated to the '30's and  perhaps hasn't aged well  but his books are very powerful. Babbitt really grabbed me in  my 50's, searing and so were the sequels.

As far as the rude hostile nature today in my opinion when the elected leader of the free world constantly ridicules those who disagree with him in  any way, labels  them with  nasty nicknames and  mocks openly the disabled, what else can you expect when that is given as an example for children to see and copy?  I dislike bullies,  and the  Biblical "seat of the scornful" seems  well filled in the White House.

[Frybabe]

Interesting read on the origins of war. https://www.historynet.com/the-origins-of-war. This article was originally published in 1989, so it is not up to date with the genetics of today. Nevertheless it is an interesting read.

I sometimes think that the best we can do is to try to minimize war and damaging aggressiveness. Since I read a lot of SciFi, I noticed that a number of the books use or point out our predisposition to war and aggression. For example, here we find aliens using Earthborn soldiers to do their fighting for them because we are really good at it. Other SciFi books use genetic manipulation or careful breeding not only to cure genetic diseases and extend lives, but also to make more superior warriors. Oh gosh, just what we need, soldiers bred to act a lot like those army ants. We are always given these double-edged swords with which to deal. I don't for one second believe there will not be (or is not) some scientist out there who will try. Shades of Mengele, et.al., come back to haunt. Our future selves must tread very, very carefully and be ever vigilant against the misuse of genetics.

Annie, The Novel is a must read for me after spending many years in the publishing and printing industry.

[BarbStAubrey]

Phrases I have either questions about or are enlightening -  I know this is the library but could this be a side bar conversation - a Saturday meetup - it may be me but this issue has me scratching my head -

Frybabe from your link - Had to type in the Origins... since the link goes to a long long long list of titles on war - so overwhelming is that list it is showing me war is a subject we do not like to dwell upon but, my goodness maybe that is part of the cause - we don't look at it and it is a constant companion -

Anyhow the ant story - wow - but this quote brought a question "a complex social structure, coordinated aggression, political and territorial overtones, and a lust for property" I got all but not sure what is a "complex social structure"

I found this bit interesting more than questioning the statement - "The most important thing about this intellectual (referring to Darwin and Sumner) give-and-take is not who was right or wrong but that war was no longer being treated like glaciation or the formation of mountain ranges. Rather, it had become for these evolutionary thinkers essentially a cultural institution whose roots could be discerned and whose development was primarily a function of learning. This was an important change, and it is probably not accidental that it coincided with the rise of the idealistic pre-1914 peace movement, which assumed that war could be progressively mitigated and eventually outlawed."

Ah so our pension for wishing for peace can be traced to an idealistic pre-1914 peace movement - nothing wrong with idealism but it sure is not pulling apart an issue to make change - finding roots is one thing but my thinking now is there is no way to pull out these roots and so yes, frybabe your conclusion really does fit, "the best we can do is to try to minimize war and damaging aggressiveness."

An eye opener for me and a way to look further into minimizing war was the explanation there are the three directions - ethnography, physical anthropology, and historically oriented studies - the article refers to how war in our western culture is being explored while focusing on the tribes still living as hunters and gatherers in the east - my understanding is that the east has just as often turned to war as the west - the difference for a time seemed to be how the conflicts were fought but the 20th century opened east and west, north and south to a world view with similar tools of war.

A benefit to war appears to be a surge in new tools that continue to benefit and actually change society along with, a new body of learning and then later an exchange of cultures as the two warring partners mix. I wonder if our idealism was tied to what artists and musicians refer to the romantic period - an influence but no one period is the end all - just wondering...

I can see how if we are not knowledgeable about war and because it is uncomfortable, it sets us up to be fearful that certain behavior will bring about war. War that we do not want for many reasons however, one factor is because we know so little about it and so like the elephant and blind men story, some only see/feel the 'how' of an issue while others only see/feel the part of the elephant that is focused on the 'what' - therefore, in order to stand up for the way we see/feel the elephant, fear of or, being uneducated about war puts us in a vulnerable position.

Well this could go on and on couldn't it - we'll never change the behavior that appears to be a part of us but for sure, I know I need to learn more about the basics of war because I am pretty sure now the opposite of war is not kindness or agreeableness - all we are saying when we think someone is not agreeable therefore, not suitable is just that - we are using our values to measure another and that we learned is being greedy - when we justify wanting what we think is right is not giving equal space to accept but more, to be open to another point of view -

As the article about Fear and Greed says, we believe we make good decisions, and we deserve to be right because we put so much effort into developing our views and decisions and to change those views is hard work that rankles our view on morality which should be rewarded. We justify our actions as we justify our thinking - many of us I bet saw in the article on the Origins of War, the invading ants as being in the wrong - for several reasons - not only their aggression but the rational for what they want - and yet, it is those warrior ants that live and pass on the genetics of a species.

Hmm maybe that is part of it - the concept of 'The law of evolution' which is that the 'strongest survives!' and war, like knights jousting of old weeded out the weak and the strongest survived just as the war of ideas becomes a cultural battle.  Well two quotes from the earlier link that has me on a path of questions which landed me on questioning war are;

"But greed and fear aren’t always character flaws... The two traits evolve from something innocent: the amount of confidence we have that our actions influence our outcomes."

"When you give up a flexible mind, you are now immune to feedback. So now you are indeed less prepared than a beginner, or even someone attempting random strategies in the dark."

[Frybabe]

Barb, I must have accidentally truncated the web address. It is easy to do with this blasted laptop keyboard. I am glad that you found the page. https://www.historynet.com/the-origins-of-war/htm

I thought the author tended to obfuscate some in the article. I don't know if he did that on purpose or just wasn't able to explain his thoughts more simply without going into a long explanation. His analogy of "glaciation or the formation of mountain ranges" kind of left me blank to tell the truth. And I disagree with his comment that "wishing for peace can be traced to an idealistic pre-1914 peace movement". I took that to mean that he thinks that wishing for peace is a relatively late development. I refuse to believe that.

Well, I made the mistake of typing in a search for the philosophy of war. Where to even start? Aristotle, maybe? And then there is the philosophy of peace. I wonder if philosophy even enters the picture, except as an "after-action" analysis, when your very survival is at stake. As intelligent as we like to think we are, emotions like fear and greed and lust are very difficult to overcome for most people. We see it all the time where emotions sway opinions over logical conclusions. We have a war within ourselves between thought and logical conclusions, and emotional wants/needs. If we are at war within ourselves how can we not be, at times, at war with others? I think your last sentence is spot.

[Frybabe]

Ginny, I neglected to ask the other day - Have you been up to Hadrian's Wall and the fort sites along the wall, like Vindolanda?

[ginny]

Frybabe, yes, many times.  The last time I did the whole wall in a week, on  an archaeological study tour there which the Telegraph put on, led by a archaeologist,  which was really fantastic (but absolutely exhausting)  with Peter Jones  as guest  speaker, and I've stayed several different times in various places along the wall, particularly visiting friends in Carlisle. 

I learned a lot of things on that study tour, such as don't ever go anywhere with an archaeologist unless you are fit, they will run the legs off you, they are like mountain goats jumping into this or that excavated ditch, and expecting you to, too, long long long days walking/ jumping down in the sites, amazing energy, even when they themselves are  not young..But of course worth it. We were at Vindolanda when they had just  discovered another letter in the bog and were tremendously excited about it. 

I don't think I could do that today, but I like to look back on it.

 Does Goldsworthy do a good job with it in his new  book?

[bellamarie]

While I do not agree with some of the behavior of our president, never would I ever imagine he being the reason for the hate and rudeness among the people today. People have been this way from the beginning, so to point blame to the person who is now our president, thinking he sets the tone, seems a bit far extreme to me. I would like to hope a better person for this world to be influenced by, would be to use Christ as our example, not any politician or leader.  As I was taught, and as I have taught my children and grandchildren, we should use Jesus as the person to emulate.  In my CCD classroom I teach my students...WWJD (What Would Jesus Do)

I absolutely LOVE this.......
Frybabe,  "We see it all the time where emotions sway opinions over logical conclusions."

[PatH]

Hi, Annie, it's always good to see you.  I hope you get the medicine problem solved.  Such a pain.

[PatH]

Ten days ago we lost Christopher Tolkien, son of J. R. R. Tolkien.  As his father's literary heir, he took all his father's unfinished works--almost completed stories, multiple versions of tales, scraps, outlines, comments--and made sense of the chaos, boiling it down to a number of books that are probably pretty much what his father would have done.  Given his father's tendency to write things on scrap paper and change his mind three times on one page, this was no easy task, but he did it well, and we now have much more of the stories of Middle Earth, a prose translation of Beowulf, The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun, and miscellaneous other things which otherwise would have been unavailable.

[BarbStAubrey]

thanks Pat - I read about his passing but did not know he finished his father's books - looking up the books he co-authored with his father I was surprised to see a few other books with duel authorship with JRR Tolkien listed first and then another - need to look into it and see if these were written while he was alive or after his death with I assume the family's permission. I remember when you led us through one of the Tolkien books I think it was the Hobbet - where they get caught up in the giant spider web like cocoons... 

[bellamarie]

I have never read Tolkien, may have to peek at some of his books.

Speaking of passing, I spent the day watching the horrible tragedy of the helicopter crash killing Kobe Bryant, his 13 yr old daughter Gianna, and seven others.  The media just released the names of three of the others as, Orange Coast College baseball coach John Altobelli, his wife, Keri Altobelli, and their 13-year-old daughter, Alyssa, who played on the club team with Bryant’s daughter, were also among the victims, according to his family.  They were on their way to a basketball tournament the two daughters were to play in.  Such a sad day. 
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-01-26/aircraft-slams-into-hillside-explodes-in-flames-near-calabasas

I saw a quote of Kobe's:   

[Frybabe]

Ginny I have to keep reminding myself that Vindolanda is set before the Wall was built, just around the time that Trajan became emperor.  I have yet to read his non-fiction book, Hadrian's Wall, but it is on my wish list. One of the things that interested me is that Goldsworthy did not neglect to include in the book the garrisons established and abandoned farther north. He also did not neglect mentioning that Irish clans joined with the northern clans to try to push back the Romans. I know practically nothing about northern campaigns more northerly than Eboracum/York.

[ginny]

  Frybabe,  DUH, hahaa  I thought....from the subject matter....the Vindolanda you were reading was part of  the new 2018 Hadrian's Wall book! 

I did not  know that,  but it's kind of a given, it's actually hard to go to any ancient Roman  site in Britain that did not have something existing before it, and he  would know  if anybody does. (The archaeologist on the last visit said that  tourists are most  interested in the latrines.)      

  His Hadrian's Wall is,  the reviews say,   short and snappy apparently and a 200 page  easy read, is Vindolanda?

Goldsworthy is not known for his short snappy easy reads. hahaha  I now wish I had read both of them before visiting,  but of course that was not possible.

I'm not sure how much faith you can put in the posted reviews of any book, either,  it makes you wonder.

Yes, Bellamarie, certainly a terrible and sad tragedy, hard to even take in.

[Frybabe]

Ginny, I just noticed that our tale in The Mabiginion this week is about the Emperor Maximus who helped to put down "The Great Conspiracy" (367-368AD) at a garrison along Hadrian's Wall. Now I have to go find out which garrison because my quick source, the Ancient History Encycolpedia, doesn't say.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, Bellamarie the shock of his death hit everyone - even journalists said they did not believe it when the news first came in - I know I did not believe it till I did some exploration online - many of us saw him grow up in front of our eyes from a young high school student through his maturing years - he came out well on the other end of his life changing personal disaster.

The whole issue of walls hit me as all of a sudden the New England poem about good walls make good neighbors and the difference between a society that uses walls versus a society that is wall-less and yet, they too had boundaries - not sure now how they established and kept those boundaries - thinking on it probably natural boundaries like rivers and mountain ranges or maybe the availability of drinking water - I do not know that much about Hadrian's wall - was it manned or patrolled? Were there villages nearby? 

[ANNIE]

I have also been watching the Kobe Bryant story.  What an awful tragedy! Just awful!

As to the Impeachment trial,
I am also hearing about Bolton’s book and that Romney has called for hearing what Bolton has to say.  I see a longer trial in the offing. Good grief!  Now Schumer is speaking!  What a nightmare!

In answer to you who answered my post, I hope you will read “The Novel” by Michener.  It’s worth  reading.  I’m open to a discussion of it sometime this year. I just can’t wait to hear Frybabe’s comments since she has so much experience in that field.

As to my health, the doctor ordered a med I used to take and I had a bad reaction to it so now he will need to give me something else! 

[bellamarie]

Annie, I so hope your doctor gets your meds all figured out.  I'm just so happy to see you back with us. 

As for the impeachment trial, I don't believe there will be any witnesses called.  I see this trial wrapping up quickly, and President Trump acquitted.  The only way Bolton would be allowed to testify, would be if the president waived his executive privilege, which he will not do, and they would also get Biden, Hunter and the whistle blower to testify, which there is NO way the House managers will agree to that. Between Schumer, Nadler and Schiff, I don't know who's voice irritates me more.   America is exhausted with these investigations, hearings, and this trial.  They all need to get back to work, lowering drug costs, and other things they were elected to do. 

I'm going to go look for The Novel.  I just finished a my book, and need something new to read.

[ginny]

 I don't know that all of America is exhausted. And I don't know what on earth Hunter Biden has to do with the President of the United States obstructing justice. Biden is not on trial. Let's hear the witnesses. All that it takes for evil to triumph is for one good man to stay silent. I hope that 5 good men--- I hope there are at least 5 who are immune to threats--- may overcome their ....talk about emotion superseding logic...greed for staying in power and vote to at least HEAR a witness who does  pertain to the issues of the  trial. What harm could it possibly do to hear John Bolton?

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny as I understand Bolton is another who does not have first hand information - most of those who gave testimony were not in the room or on the phone when the two presidents spoke with each other - the various witnesses all have or, had a job that gave them a viewpoint from the purpose of their job. Plus I think the House had its hearings and they did call many people for testimony but chose not to call Bolton. I do not think law allows us to go back and have the House do a rerun.

My concern is that we can easily become partisan here in the library - we are all sensitive to our own beliefs and at this point, 3 years into this president's term, we are pretty set in our thinking without too much give or patience for the opposite viewpoint - too bad but that is how it appears and we can all blame who or what caused this extreme split - it really does not matter - we have strong beliefs - and then this entire trail in both houses appears more like watching a football game that on top of it all we know, everything that has been happening are engineered for ulterior motives.

Please lets keep to posting our thoughts, learned bits and enjoyment or various books rather than the library becoming a political discussion - we do have a political discussion that is seldom used - I remember how shared partisan views chased many of us away from Senior and Friends - let's be above the fray - I'm sure these proceedings on TV and other news media outlets has many glued to a screen and are tearing many apart but I doubt the proceedings are changing the hearts and minds of the average voter - the split is deep and wide. Please folks let's not create a similar split here on Senior Learn. 

[bellamarie]

I beg to differ that Biden is irrelevant to this, because the entire impeachment is weighted on the president trying to interfere with the upcoming election, asking for Ukraine to look into the corruption of Burisma, the company Hunter Biden was on the board, and Joe Biden threatening Ukraine if they did not fire the prosecutor looking into the corrupt company, HE would not give them the billions of dollars.  It is on tape, it is what began this entire thing.  So yes, if they decide to call witnesses, which I don't see them doing, Hunter, Joe Biden and the whistle blower should testify.  It goes to the fact President Trump was concerned with the corruption in Ukraine. 

Yes, the house chose NOT to call Bolton, because they did not want to take the chance the court would rule against them, and they were in a hurry to impeach before Christmas.  It is NOT the Senate's responsibility to do the House's job.  In saying this..... I agree, I think we do need to stick to discussing books, because as you stated, we all have strong points of view, and no one is going to move anyone else's viewpoint.  And ultimately, the Senate has the majority, they are going to acquit the president, and this circus will be over.  Polls show, Americans are fed up, and wants this to be over.  I have no doubt that President Trump will be re elected, and the Dems will continue with investigations and impeachments for the next 4 years. 

Ughhhh.... but we can, and will agree to disagree, and respect each other's difference of opinions, and enjoy our book discussions.  I mean geez, even my AT&T installer started talking about it, and I am like, hey can you just get this wifi installed and be done, after being here from 8:30 a.m. until 4:30 p.m. the last thing I wanted was to discuss the impeachment hearings with him.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Haha fun and games Bellamaire - you nailed it -  Americans are fed up, and wants this to be over. - since we here on Senior Learn are Americans we just want our discussion of books back - which by the way I have so many books on my TBR pile but did earmark a used copy of The Novel for my book purchase quota for next month.

Also on my list for next month to download is Conflict, Security and the Reshaping of Society The civilization of war by Alessandro Dal Lago. Yes, my curiosity about war continues...

With the Jane Austin novels - I had not even heard of this new one, partially written by her and now a Masterpiece series on PBS - had anyone read Sanditon? As usual filmed magnificently and great actors but the story is a bit rougher compared to any Jane Austin I've read - Do not know if that is the filming or the way the book was written - almost has a flavor of Dickens rather than Jane Austin.

[PatH]

It's been some years since I read Sanditon, and I haven't seen the current movie, so I can't compare, but a lot of the plot has to be not Austen's.  The part of the book she actually wrote just really sets things up at the budding resort, with a lot of suitable people to pair off, but no clues yet as to who might get who, and the plot not really very far along.  The book is finished plausibly by someone else (I'm too lazy to go downstairs and dig it out to get the name) and you're told where Austen stops and the other person starts.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat the author who finishes the novel was a guest at the opening of the Masterpiece Theater interpretation - he sounded very convincingly that he was all about furthering Jane Austin's  thoughts as he understood them but again, it does not come across as the genteel story with characters who are even loathsome but for sure, Austin does not describe those in a lower class as belligerent to those above them in status - and then a new twist that Jane Austin was probably going to tackle - the issue of race and color which to a degree they are handling in a Jane Austin kind of storytelling, till the young man is made to leave. I thought that was handled more along the lines of Dickens - The Dickens characterization is mostly the story surrounding the working class versus those in a higher class, even those who were farmers but land owners, as the parents of one of the main characters, versus the working class who are skilled or unskilled - the workers contribution to the story just is not ringing as Jane Austin would have handled it. I do not remember any of her stories setting up the working class directly pitted against the gentry.

[bellamarie]

Barb, I had never heard of Sanditon.  Looking it up on Wikipedia it says: 

Sanditon (1817) is an unfinished novel by the English writer Jane Austen. In January 1817, Austen began work on a new novel she called The Brothers, later titled Sanditon, and completed eleven chapters before stopping work in mid-March 1817, probably because of her illness.[1] R.W. Chapman first published a full transcription of the novel in 1925 under the name Fragment of a Novel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanditon

I can't imagine anyone finishing her book and getting the proper tone, and personality of the characters correct.  There is only ONE Jane Austen.

I have read all of these:
She published four novels during her lifetime:
Sense and Sensibility (1811)
Pride and Prejudice (1813)
Mansfield Park (1814)
Emma (1815).
Persuasion and Northanger Abbey (published together posthumously, 1817)

If I had to pick a favorite, it would be between Pride and Prejudice and Emma. I am going to see if I can find the movie of Sanditon.  Now that I have unlimited data, and not worry about going over, I am going to be able to watch movies on my computer.  I found out today my big screen TVs are not "smart" TVs, but I may go buy the roku box, so I can stream on my TVs.  It's taken me awhile to understand streaming, but I am getting there.....says the person who brought technology to the Catholic elementary school, and taught students and teachers how to use the internet, back in 1982 when schools were just buying Apple computers. 

Thanks for the info! 

[PatH]

Bellamarie, it's hard to pick an absolute favorite, isn't it.  My tie would be between Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion.  I remember when we read Emma here, you were never once fooled by any of Austen's many misdirections, hidden agendas, etc.

Barb, the Sanditon I have just says by Jane Austen and Another Lady.  It must be the first in the list in Bellamarie's Wikipedia link, and the copyright is 1975.  I agree that Austen wouldn't tackle the sort of class issues you mention, though she's extremely aware of them when people think of marrying out of their class.

JoanK describes Austen's writing as like a microscope: covers a narrow field of vision, but perfect in every detail inside that field.