Author Topic: The Library (Read 2089775 times)

Frybabe · « **Reply #5920 on:** August 10, 2011, 09:39:17 AM »

The Library

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Do come in from daily chores and spend some time with us.

We look forward to hearing from you, about you and the books you are enjoying (or not).

Let the book talk begin here!

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I know MaryPage, but the reporter said plastic. I thought it might be something newer than rubber.

Ah, I just did a Google. There IS such a thing as plastic bullets. Wikipedia says they replaced rubber bullets in 1975. That long ago? Never heard of them before.

PatH · « **Reply #5921 on:** August 10, 2011, 11:23:41 AM »

Quote from: Frybabe on August 10, 2011, 09:39:17 AM

Never heard of them before.

Me either. I guess it's been a long time since I was shot at by the police.

marjifay · « **Reply #5922 on:** August 10, 2011, 01:25:35 PM »

Those riots in London remind me of the Los Angeles riots in 1965 and 1992. Like the one in London, they started with something the police did to a minority person and just escalated from there when a crowd started throwing rocks and stuff. The one in 1992 began when a bunch of policemen severely beat a black motorist after a high-speed vehicle chase.

Marj

ANNIE · « **Reply #5923 on:** August 10, 2011, 01:43:41 PM »

DON'T MISS THIS!! ITS SO INSPIRING!

http://www.wimp.com/goingto/

MaryPage · « **Reply #5924 on:** August 10, 2011, 07:02:12 PM »

I apologize, FryBabe. Our reporter said "rubber," and, having heard that and only that, I wrote that. Did not mean to come off a smart alec.

Frybabe · « **Reply #5925 on:** August 10, 2011, 08:10:08 PM »

You weren't being smart alecy, MaryPage. So the reporters aren't getting their stories straight? What a surprise! But it did get me to look up plastic bullets to see what gives.

Annie, what an interesting clip. I always think of myself of being made of star stuff.

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #5926 on:** August 11, 2011, 02:42:17 AM »

Marjifay - in my ever more cynical opinion these riots are not about the man who was shot, but more about gangs of opportunist yobs who see their chance to take what they want with impunity. I doubt if most of them even know someone was shot. My parents-in-law, however (with whom I am currently staying) are far more open-minded and feel it has all been caused by the fact that these people have nothing to lose - they already have no jobs, no prospects, etc. Personally when I see looters who are already wearing the latest trainers, watches, etc, I don't call that poverty.. On the other hand, it can't help that our current government consists almost entirely of billionaire Old Etonians who are hand in glove with all the bankers still awarding themselves millions in bonuses. Someone observed in yesterday's Guardian that the bankers have brought our economy to its knees and been rewarded with more money - the rioters have looted Primark and will end up in prison.

I do think it is true to say that the wealth and power in this country are becoming concentrated in the hands of ever fewer people.

The Guardian (our only really left-wing paper) also found that the mobs consisted not just of disaffected youths but also such people as an organic chef, an opera steward and a teacher.

Rosemary

Steph · « **Reply #5927 on:** August 11, 2011, 06:08:49 AM »

I really have problems with anyone joining a mob.. The mob psychology tends to be overwhelming and bad things happen. You can not be happy with anything that is happening, but the mobs are killing... destroying small businesses... and generally acting like a hydra headed monster. They do here in the US and in GB as well.. Sad.. The innocent suffer.
I agree with your Prime Minister, who laid into , bad parenting.. bad education... etc. I see so much here blamed on banks and other entities .. It is true that banks are greedy, but they always have been. Big business is just that.. Big,, and not particularly interested in helping others. But dont blame everything on this sort of evil.. A number of these people want something for nothing.. Oops.. off my soap box.

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #5928 on:** August 11, 2011, 06:53:05 AM »

Couldn't agree more about the bad parenting Steph. Another article I read yesterday said that things started to go downhill when parents started to put their children on pedestals and not give them any boundaries. I am a strong believer in "never saying never" where my children are concerned - I'm sure lots of parents have been horribly surprised by their children from time to time - but that said, none of mine have so far done anything like this, nor would I expect them to. There is far too much blaming the school, teachers, etc - it's not they who brought these children up.

David Cameron is, however, someone from a very privileged background indeed, and I don't think he has a clue what most of us have to deal with, never mind the really poor. He is far too chummy with Murdoch, etc, for my liking. Blair was not any better. I don't know what the answer is, but I do think that the Scottish government has a lot more credibility. I too will now stagger down off my box....

Rosemary

Frybabe · « **Reply #5929 on:** August 11, 2011, 08:12:09 AM »

I was watching a video of the looting (in Manchester, I think). Most of the crowd were standing or wandering around just being there. The looters were taking cds/dvds and flat screen TVs. All of a sudden the crowd moved down the street. What shop did they hit next? Another electronics store. I agree that this bunch was out to get something for nothing and had nothing to do with poverty otherwise they would have been hitting the grocery, clothing and drugstores for basics. I'm glad you mentioned Primark, Rosemary. Were they taking clothing and needed housewares or did they mostly head for the electronics section?

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #5930 on:** August 11, 2011, 08:29:09 AM »

Frybabe - the Guardian printed a list of the shops most popluar with the looters - I don't have it in front of me, but from memory the top hit was JDD Sports (ie all the sports gear with labels), then Orange/T-Mobile phone shop, and Sainsburys (major supermarket - from what I could see they were mostly taking alcohol from there) There were some others but I'll have to go and look them up.

I just read an interview with one of the teenage looters - by then he was sitting next to his furious mother in their home in Kilburn (fairly rough area of north London). He said that what they had done was nothing to do with the police shooting of Mark Duggan, and all to do with people seeing that they could take whatever they wanted. His mother said she had always tried to teach her sons the difference between right and wrong, but that she did feel a lot of this would not have happened if the youths had not been on the streets - her sons are trained electricians who still can't get jobs - she felt that if they had had jobs they would have been coming home tired and not going out and hanging about on street corners. Someone else in the paper said that a big part of the problem is that so many of these children have been born as the result of casual sex - teenage mothers and fathers, the latter having nothing whatsoever to do with the babies after conception. These male babies have no male role models, and instead copy what they see on TV, video games, etc. This country has a very high rate of teenage pregnancy, partly because girls see it as a way of claiming benefits and getting a council house. Cameron is now threatening to take away the council houses of convicted rioters, arsonists, etc, and I do have some sympathy with that. I have honest hard working relations who have had to wait a very long time for any form of low cost housing, and who would have absolutely no chance of buying in the private sector.

My MIL still feels that the great and increasing rift between the obscenely wealthy and the poor in this country is a major factor - there certainly seem to be fewer consequences for rich people's crimes than poor people's.

Rosemary

Frybabe · « **Reply #5931 on:** August 11, 2011, 08:38:47 AM »

Several good points, Rosemary. What was that saying about "idle hands"?

Your MIL knows her history. There is a tendency when there is a large middle class for things tend to stay stable. But when the gap between rich and poor becomes so great, and there is only a small middle class as a buffer, watch out. So many people being out of work for so long help to widen the gap and reduce the middle class.

Babi · « **Reply #5932 on:** August 11, 2011, 09:19:37 AM »

Marvelous photography, ANNIE! I'm not sure how it related to the title, tho'. The
film seemed to celebrate life, not speak of "We're going to die."

"great and increasing rift between the obscenely wealthy and the poor in this
country" That's been a hallmark of the collapse of more than one country or
empire, hasn't it? Are the Etonians the only ones standing for public office,
ROSEMARY? The classic democratic cure-all has always been, "throw the b___ out!"

ANNIE · « **Reply #5933 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:31:26 AM »

Frybabe,
I think the point was that we are going to die,but haven't we been lucky to have been here.

ginny · « **Reply #5934 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:43:03 AM »

It's so ironic, as I said in the Technophobe, an of course I'm just a tourist! I just came back from England, was there 9 days, stayed outside London, went mostly tho to the smaller villages by BritRail and meeting the Latin students but everywhere I went and I mean everywhere everyone was so courteous and helpful and seemed to me, happy. There seemed a remarkable lack of Type A behavior.

There were athletes there from other countries I guess training for the Olympics next year, and I witnessed many acts of courtesy and kindness. Hacking was all over the media. I did not spend that much time in London, but did spend some, walking, and that Clapham Junction where the riots were a couple of days ago I must have gone thru 100 times, it's a big train station where you change trains a lot.

I came back so impressed (anew) by the people and the courtesy from the young people, for instance, in London, on the Tube, I just loved it. And I mean I went everywhere. And now these riots. I couldn't believe my eyes. I think a hooligan is a hooligan, and they are everywhere. Nothing new under the sun.

I note that people are turning out to clean up the damages, too.

I'd go tomorrow in a heartbeat. The Olympic games are going to be wonderful.

ginny · « **Reply #5935 on:** August 11, 2011, 04:06:26 PM »

Oh I just saw (why DOES my browser do this?) Rosemarykaye's post and of course she's right. NPR has been featuring things on some of the parents of these....sorry...hooligans.... and is full of "he can't get a job so what do you expect?" Said angrily.

uh....Sorry, lady. My own youngest son, an engineer with several degrees, was out of work for a year in our own recession but did quite nicely on what he had saved, and now, thankfully, has a great job. He kept taking seminars and all kinds of stuff along the way, trying to better himself.

But that said, things seem extremely expensive in England. While in Bath I was forced to dash in a Debenhams because it was open early and it was pouring rain and so COLD in July and the prices nearly sent me back out the door in shock. Happily unbeknownst to freezing me, the "cardigan" I bought in desperation was apparently on major sale so I got it quite cheaply, but the prices for clothes were out of this world. Debenhams was one of the stores hit in the Clapham riots. Beautiful styles coming from England, they can't get here too quickly for me. Sweaters and tops with actual ribbed bottoms, fitted, stylish, and very pretty. But so expensive, there. One does wonder how people can afford things.

I think gas is 7 British pounds , can that be right? A gallon? VERY expensive place to live if you've no job or even if you have. Or even if you're visiting.

That said, I love the place. You have to wonder tho how much different the gap is now than, say, pre WWI, when there didn't seem to be much of a middle class at all? (Or was there? Correct me if I'm wrong?)

Dana · « **Reply #5936 on:** August 11, 2011, 06:05:08 PM »

Reading everyone's comments about the riots in England, I do agree with your inlaws Rosemary. When you get a bunch of youth with no jobs, no future prospects, but not using their energies struggling to survive , and not off in the army being killed someplace,........they just have nothing to drive their lives so they're ripe to get into trouble. I think humans need a challenge......., unfortunately they just don't go to sleep like dogs when there's nothing for them to do ! Added to which I agree their upbringing has probably lacked the discipline and stability which is necessary to socialize a child. When I look at it, I think its not surprising they riot.

I do think we are just starting to pay for that obscene drive to make money for nothing, and get what we can't pay for. This has affected everyone from tycoons to people hoping to make a killing on the stock market, to people buying houses they can't possibly afford (and being encouraged to do so), to whole countries--Europe and the USA wildly spending more that they have. I think things are just going to get worse. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole financial system collapses. And I do think the riots are a small part of it all.
On that cheerful note, I'm off to have a martini !!

PatH · « **Reply #5937 on:** August 11, 2011, 06:27:18 PM »

Cheers!

MaryPage · « **Reply #5938 on:** August 11, 2011, 07:37:52 PM »

Rosemary, we have the same situation here in this country. We are losing our middle class and the gap between the ultra rich and the rest of us has become a threat to our economic stability. I fear rioting here eventually. I disapprove intensely. Mobs are ruinous, and their destruction only hurts; it does not help matters. Amazing how people, especially males, can get mindlessly caught up in them, though. Me, I would be scared to death if I saw one forming, and would head for home as fast as my little legs would take me! Or by a faster means if possible.

Parents who are poor and possibly unemployed or underemployed become depressed and unable to cope with finding a means to control their likewise unemployed young. Bad things happening tend to become like dominoes falling. It takes only a spark to start a conflagration What needs doing is government INVENTING work for them until the economy improves and the market place itself creates new jobs. Get them fixing our roads and bridges, cleaning up after our floods and tornadoes, cleaning up our parks and renovating our old, falling down schools.

JoanR · « **Reply #5939 on:** August 11, 2011, 07:57:18 PM »

I remember the CCC ( civilian conservation corps) camps during the great depression of the 30's - I think that helped direct a lot of youthful energy in the right direction. We need some of that kind of thing right now. I also recall a bunch of WPA projects that did constructive things such as building post offices, helping artists etc. Come back, FDR!

pedln · « **Reply #5940 on:** August 11, 2011, 08:49:53 PM »

Quote

I also recall a bunch of WPA projects that did constructive things such as building post offices, helping artists etc

Isn't that what part of the stimulus was supposed to do?

Dana · « **Reply #5941 on:** August 11, 2011, 09:17:02 PM »

I just have to add to my comment above. Spending more than we can afford (government wise) has included putting in place, for the best of motives, a welfare state (at least in Europe, not here). Unfortunately this seems to be yet another failed experiment. I wish we could look after each other, but it seems when we try everyone does their best to take advantage of everyone else, which I suppose is OK because its just human nature, but much much worse than that, perhaps people can't cope with the welfare state. It maybe debases them by taking away their drive to survive so they become layabouts and rioters.....

Can I really be saying this??

maryz · « **Reply #5942 on:** August 11, 2011, 11:07:46 PM »

I think the idea of something like the CCC and programs to repair the infrastructure, schools, etc., is what needs to happen both to provide employment and to help turn around the economy. But this is exactly what some folks are fighting against - government programs, government spending.

kiwilady · « **Reply #5943 on:** August 12, 2011, 03:14:26 AM »

We have the same! Middle class gone practically and the obscenely rich and many many poor. I dont know where its going to end up. In trouble I think. I think the western world is in strife.

Carolyn

Steph · « **Reply #5944 on:** August 12, 2011, 06:24:51 AM »

I think that both the US and England have a middle class as does most of Europe. It is getting smaller for sure, but mostly what seems to be happening is a larger number of undereducated children are having children.. ( Its considered cool in some high school cultures). Babies are not toys as they discover to their dismay. Living in Florida, I have just gone through watching in horror, a criminal trial that really started when a teen became pregnant and had a child and tired of it.
For wishes.. how about all 12 year old girls ( no exceptions) must get a shot that prevents pregnancy until a certain age.. that all teen boys also get a shot that keeps them shooting blanks..
Then,, with the population under better control. we can provide jobs and housing.. I hate it in the paper when I read of a problem child.. Lists his Mom, and four or so siblings..Each and every child has a different last name.. Ugh..

Babi · « **Reply #5945 on:** August 12, 2011, 08:55:52 AM »

I guess the trick to living where things are so costly (and they are quite
high enough here, thank you!), is to find a residence within walking distance
of all the essentials,..like a grocery store and the library.

That did work for us at least once, MARYPAGE. My father spent some time as
a young man working on projects that the government set up. Those provided
work for a great many people during a really rough time, economically. Right
now, tho', I'm not sure even the government has the funds for that. Wouldn't
this be a great time and place for some of our billionaires and multi-
millionaires to step up and do something useful?
My thanks and appreciation, by the way, to those who actually are doing
something to help. Bill Gates comes to mind.

CallieOK · « **Reply #5946 on:** August 12, 2011, 09:21:51 AM »

How do you (pl.) define "middle class"? I've never quite figured out where it begins and ends as compared with "lower" and "upper".

ginny · « **Reply #5947 on:** August 12, 2011, 09:43:16 AM »

THAT'S a good question! I look forward to hearing the answer.

I have another one. I'm reading Georgette Heyer, my first of hers, a mystery, because it was recommended highly, it's called something like Why Shoot the Butler?

It's like a step back in time, what? I love those "what" things you sometimes see in film or books (the only places I've seen this occur) which characters put after sentences. I've seen them say, actually, "what? what?" after a sentence.

I'm not sure what that means (what does the "what" mean after a sentence? I see how it's used but what in fact does it actually mean?)_ but I like it. At any rate, it does seem a bit dated in speech (shows you how many of the obscenely rich in Britain I currently congregate with

) but at the same time you do feel you're crusting along with the upper crust of the period. hahahaa Naturally there's a huge estate and a dress ball coming up. We've already had the murder, what? hahahaa

But there's a discussion of "Brother Basil" at this point in the book and one character asks what's wrong with him? And the other says, "oh nothing, he's the sort of person who drinks his own bath water."

This means nothing to me, does anybody have a clue what they are saying here? Is this a well known expression anywhere that I should know?

Is it some sort of thriftiness or something?

marjifay · « **Reply #5948 on:** August 12, 2011, 02:57:14 PM »

Re the London riots, I remember years ago reading CLOCKWORK ORANGE and thinking that could never happen. Was I ever wrong!

Marj

MaryPage · « **Reply #5949 on:** August 12, 2011, 06:38:07 PM »

Exactly!

I define the middle class as that segment of any population that can afford to buy a reasonably priced home and raise a reasonable size family in some comfort and lack of worry. They can afford to keep at least one car and keep it maintained, go to the dentist. As long as they are sensible about what they can afford and what are luxuries beyond their reach, and stay out of obscene debt, they can remain comfortably in this "middle" class. They are not rich, except in the important things in life such as family love, good friends, and health care. They can even give a little bit to the

poor among us, who cannot afford to go to the dentist with an aching tooth, cannot buy a home and cannot take their children to the dentist. They are not even sure of coming up with food for them tomorrow.

Welfare is not killing our economy. The rich always throw money at the congress to get them to preach this; but it is flat out false. The military industrial complex and the congress are killing our economy. The executive branch does not pass legislation; the president only signs it into law or vetos it. Only the congress can propose and vote on our laws. The president can and DOES make suggestions to the legislative branch, but there is nothing more he has the power to do.

This congress reminds me of nothing so much as a magician who uses slight of hand to get us to look at and condemn what he wants us to believe we see, and not look at what is really going on. Which is the rich, wall street, the banks, the oil companies & other corporations who do not pay taxes being greedy giants stomping all over the rest of us.

Some of my children own their own small businesses that are corporations. They pay PLENTY of taxes! They are hurting big time. Why don't those oil companies? Why are my children's small businesses and my own household paying income taxes to actually SUBSIDIZE those big huge profit making corporations? Why are the rich more important than my children?

marcie · « **Reply #5950 on:** August 12, 2011, 08:04:57 PM »

Quote from: ginny on August 12, 2011, 09:43:16 AM

But there's a discussion of "Brother Basil" at this point in the book and one character asks what's wrong with him? And the other says, "oh nothing, he's the sort of person who drinks his own bath water."

This means nothing to me, does anybody have a clue what they are saying here? Is this a well known expression anywhere that I should know?

Is it some sort of thriftiness or something?

Ginny, wiki answers says the following (though not very clearly, I think):

It would be the equivalent of "they did it to themselves" or "did them self dirty."

Another sense is to believe or buy into one's own lies or misconceptions. A group of persons, a nation, a religion or a culture, could 'drink their own bathwater'. 'Bathwater' is a euphemism for bodily waste so if bathwater was drunk it would be for it to return to it's source.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_saying_drinking_their_own_bathwater_mean#ixzz1UrXYaD28

kiwilady · « **Reply #5951 on:** August 13, 2011, 01:45:43 AM »

Mary P you are so right. The same system is happening here. It is now true that Corporations are ruling the world and the Govts are their puppets. The political parties rely on the funding they get from the big Corporations and there is a price to pay and we all know the price!

Carolyn

Steph · « **Reply #5952 on:** August 13, 2011, 06:43:26 AM »

If we could find a way to limit political fundraising, so that non millionaires could run for office, that would help. Also limit the campaigns severely to a certain amount of time. Right now way too many people are posturing because they have president fever or are running for the next election.That is why the congress has become incredibly ineffective.. They are all busily finding a convenient corner to back into and be negative. Why oh why can they not look at themselves in horror and stop this..
The t ea party is agin... not for anything.. That is sad.

Babi · « **Reply #5953 on:** August 13, 2011, 08:40:09 AM »

I think the upper and lower margins of middle class are a bit blurred, CALLIE.
The lower line is rather easy to cross; the upper limit somewhat harder. It's
especially difficult to define if you want to go beyond the economic borders. Not
every person with wealth fits into 'upper class' socially. And not everyone who
might, by heritage, be considered a 'gentleman' or 'lady', deserves the title by
my views.
Perhaps we can just say the 'middle class', generally, is well off enough to be
comfortable, but not so rich as to excite the outrage of the very poor. The gap
between lower and middle is not insurmountable; the gap between lower and upper apparently is.

What does most of our modern jargoN mean, GINNY? At present, the constant 'Yeah. No.." drives me to distraction! Is it yes or is it no? Puh-leeze!!

CallieOK · « **Reply #5954 on:** August 13, 2011, 09:17:42 AM »

Babi, your views on class distinction are the closest to mine that I have ever known - particularly "going beyond economic borders." I could write a dissertation on that sort of thing!

MaryPage · « **Reply #5955 on:** August 13, 2011, 09:40:00 AM »

Babi, for the purposes of a conversation regarding economics, we are not using the British class divisions. Poor, Lower, Middle and Upper in this case have nothing whatsoever to do with parentage, ancestry, bloodlines, education or talent, and everything to do with annual income.

For instance, a married couple with a Ph.D. each, both descendants of very respected Early American families and all of the credentials to be voted in to most (allowing they would obviously not fit all ethnic or religious requirements) clubs or institutions, but neither with inherited money of any type and one a public Middle School principal and the other running a local Non-Profit organization, would be living middle class lives economically. They would be struggling to pay the mortgage on their subdivision home and meet the expenses of their 2.7 children and 2 pets. Each requires a vehicle and they are still paying off school loans. Also, they are carrying this nation on their backs by their payment in full of all taxes assessed. Percentage of income wise, these are the folks paying to keep this country going, while the tax lawyers of the ultra rich are using loop holes and favorable tax rates to keep their 6-mansion, globe-flitting, nannies for the heirs clients from paying any taxes At All. And yes, a lot of these ultra rich are trashy people neither you nor I would invite into our homes.

pedln · « **Reply #5956 on:** August 13, 2011, 10:08:24 AM »

I think the lines got blurred when people started paying $100 or more for blue jeans.

CallieOK · « **Reply #5957 on:** August 13, 2011, 10:42:31 AM »

MaryPage, Amen to your last sentence!!!!

I don't mean to turn this into sociological discussion but...I do wonder how $250,000 became the marker for "wealthy" or "rich"?

Back on topic (and All The People said, "Hallelujah"

): I've just finished reading "The Senator's Wife" by Sue Miller. Interesting story - and not at all what I expected.

Jonathan · « **Reply #5958 on:** August 13, 2011, 02:08:23 PM »

The Bathwater imbiber business got a good answer from Marcie. What a disgusting person! That leaves the other of Ginny's questions. What is the meaning of 'what', when tacked to the end of a statement? My guess is that it has no meaning in itself, but is simply a linguistic device the speaker uses to keep the listener engaged. Eh?

I believe the military/industrial complex deserves a lot of credit for America's economic well-being in the 20th century. It created enormous wealth, and the prosperous middle class itself. It's bad rep has persuaded industry to look for greener pastures elsewhere. The military by itself could turn into a serious resource drain.

Why tax the oil industry? Isn't its product probably the single greatest source of revenue? Tax is the bane of American politics. It brought on the revolution. Can't America find a substitute?

Dana · « **Reply #5959 on:** August 13, 2011, 02:53:53 PM »

"Taxation is the price of civilization."
Oliver Wendell Holmes

He was correct.

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Author Topic: The Library (Read 2089775 times)