Author Topic: America's Prophet by Bruce Feiler February Bookclub Online (Read 43851 times)

Babi · « **Reply #40 on:** December 29, 2009, 08:50:31 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.

AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann

Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.

When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009

LINK: Moses on the Web -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley

Discussion Leader: Ann

I have read two of Bruce Feiler' earlier books, SALLY, and found they
really held my interest. Very worthwhile. I especially learned a lot from "Where God Was Born".

ANNIE · « **Reply #41 on:** December 29, 2009, 01:24:02 PM »

Hi Sally,
Glad you are going to join us in February for this wonderful book. We have already discussed "Abraham" and "Walking the Bible" over the last few years by the Bruce Feiler. This author just takes you right to his story and where it took place.

mrssherlock · « **Reply #42 on:** January 04, 2010, 06:30:19 PM »

This sounds interesting; I'll lurk, maybe put in my two cents worth at times.

elizabeth84 · « **Reply #43 on:** January 07, 2010, 07:48:33 PM »

My book arrived today, as well as The Book Thief.

ANNIE · « **Reply #44 on:** January 08, 2010, 06:43:21 AM »

Hi Jackie and Elizabeth,
We are so glad you are joining us for this discussion. And that you have your books already.

Persian · « **Reply #45 on:** January 10, 2010, 09:24:47 PM »

My family Dr. gave me a OK earlier in the week, so I am back to my old mischief after spending Christmas weekend in the ER after experiencing chest pains. I explained to her in my follow-up appointment that it was obviously just a bit of "overwrought Irishness," but I'm not sure she is convinced. Then I tried the excuse that my son ("Chaps") is preparing for his third deployment in July and my husband is returning to Egypt on Jan. 13th. Oh well, I've moved on and am beginning to read for the forthcoming discussion of Feiler's book. I look forward to it very much and am happy that I was finally able to access this site. I've also shared this site info with one of our local Librarians and perhaps she will check in before the discussion begins. She is always searching for interesting books to suggest to her local Book Club.

Hope all had a wonderful Holiday Season. Many best wishes for the New Year!

Mahlia

ANNIE · « **Reply #46 on:** January 11, 2010, 08:26:26 AM »

OH, sounds pretty good, Persian. Keep on keepin' as you get ready to say goodbye for awhile to the men in the family. I will keep you in my good thoughts and prayers.
I too am getting ready to read the book. For me, the second time. And now, I own my own copy! I hate to write in a hardback so will use post-its for notes.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #47 on:** January 15, 2010, 10:16:47 PM »

My book has come to the library, i'll pick it up on Monday......hope there is not a list of people waiting to read it so i can have it for more than 2 wks. I'll never remember details - have to take lots of notes while i'm reading it so i can participate relatively intelligently.............

.......jean

Babi · « **Reply #48 on:** January 16, 2010, 09:03:22 AM »

Did I lose a post here, or did I post it somewhere else? Anyhoo, I found
myself in a dilemma when I went looking for a library copy the book. My
library didn't have one. The county library, every single branch, had copies of "America's Prophet", and every single one of them was out or on hold. I had no idea this book was enjoying such popularity!
Fortunately, I got a gift card for Christmas. I am now the proud possessor of a hardback copy of Feiler's book, the first new hardback
book I've bought in years! (I am not a tightwad! I'm prudent.

ANNIE · « **Reply #49 on:** January 16, 2010, 11:52:43 AM »

Glad to see that Mabel and Babi have a book in hand. Well, I didn't know how popular the book has become in its short time in public.
Babi,
Glad you are prudent or frugal. It is nice to have a new book, now and then.

I am trying to prepare for the discussion by getting together links and questions. I am not good at the question part.

JoanP · « **Reply #50 on:** January 16, 2010, 12:05:29 PM »

Book in hand - ready to go! Babi, that's good to know - about library copies becoming increasingly hard to come by. Get on those hold lists now!

bellamarie · « **Reply #51 on:** January 17, 2010, 01:15:12 AM »

Annie will you post a format of which chapters for each week with questions? I have my book and have read the first couple of chapters. Already am so excited, can't wait to share it with my weekly Bible study group and encourage them to join us. See you all Feb 1.

OOOPS.....sorry just read your prior post about questions. Thanks~

Babi · « **Reply #52 on:** January 17, 2010, 09:09:28 AM »

I suspect we'll find a lot of questions to ask as the discussion begins. I
fully expect to have a grand time debating our views on Mr. Feiler's propositions and conclusions.

bellamarie · « **Reply #53 on:** January 18, 2010, 03:05:54 PM »

Well if ever there were two topics more debatable I would like to know what they could be, since Politics and Religion are the two most controversial of all, and Mr. Feiler has had the courage to write a book that he feels paralells each other. Most interesting indeed! I look forward to it.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #54 on:** January 18, 2010, 03:12:12 PM »

Weren't we told as business women never to discuss politics or religion?

............but here we are at an age and place where we can talk about ANYTHING........isn't that nice?................jean

ANNIE · « **Reply #55 on:** January 18, 2010, 05:12:13 PM »

Its the best time of our lives, Jean! We are so wise in today's world! Tee hee!

Babi · « **Reply #56 on:** January 19, 2010, 08:11:29 AM »

You didn't have to be a business woman, JEAN. I was warned in my early
youth that religion and politics were touchy subjects. Nevertheless, I
often heard politics being heatedly debated among groups of men.
Religion was considered a much more private affair. That does make
sense, seeing how our political choices have very public consequences.

bellamarie · « **Reply #57 on:** January 25, 2010, 01:24:00 PM »

I always was a pretty private person where my reilgion and political veiws stood. In the past few decades I began searcing for more knowledge in both of these areas. With gaining more knowledge I began being more active in my community with teaching religion, facilitating Pre-Cana workshops, and becoming a part of our church Bible study. I also found myself getting more involved on the political spectrun, searching out PACs, working in a candidate's headqauarters, tuning into television shows that supplied me with more information, and speaking out more openly about who I supported. So now I can see over the years my gained knowledge gave me courage to be more open, proactive and public in both of these areas I used to feel so private about.

Babi · « **Reply #58 on:** January 26, 2010, 08:16:19 AM »

I think that's great, BELLE. I've known other older people, no longer
tied down by working hours, who became volunteers in political activities.
I never went past attending some meetings to find out what the issues
were, as the machinations of politics are beyong me. I did love Bible studies and enjoyed teaching. (Adults, not kids! The adults I could at least know were there because they wanted to be, not because their parents insisted.

)
It is one of my regrets that now that I am deaf, it is pointless to attend church, much less attempt to teach. Now it's TV sermons with CC, when I can find a good one.

ANNIE · « **Reply #59 on:** January 27, 2010, 06:38:47 AM »

We will be reading and discussing Chaps 1,2,&3 for the first week.

ANNIE · « **Reply #60 on:** January 29, 2010, 07:00:39 AM »

Have you all seen this from author's facebook page. 'Twas in the Wall Street Journal yesterday. Pretty funny comment!
Did I say I am a Mac fan?? Especially of this iPad!

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3162018&id=67163162953

salan · « **Reply #61 on:** January 29, 2010, 07:37:48 AM »

I am sorry to say that my library still doesn't have a copy of this book for me. I am not usually a fan of non-fiction; so did not want to purchase a copy. Maybe it will come in soon and I can join you later. I'll be reading your comments and hopefully be able to participate.
Sally

ANNIE · « **Reply #62 on:** January 29, 2010, 07:54:04 AM »

I think if you read or listen to the links that we put in here plus our comments, you could keep up with your own comments. Try the interview first. Its pretty much of what he said at the talk we went to early in November. We welcome all comments here.

Babi · « **Reply #63 on:** January 29, 2010, 08:43:10 AM »

This is my fourth Feiler book, and I got so much out of the first three I
read. Really great books. Now, for the first time, I've started a Feiler
book and found myself doubtful. I'm questioning some of the claims and
statements, but since it's Feiler, I'll withhold a decision until I see how he
backs them up. Which, of course, should make for a very interesting
discussion.

JoanP · « **Reply #64 on:** January 29, 2010, 09:26:47 AM »

I know exactly what you are saying, Babi. I've put quite a few exclamation points and question marks in the margins - (of a library book!)
Right now I'm on the third chapter and really learning a lot~

Annie, can't wait to get started!

bellamarie · « **Reply #65 on:** January 29, 2010, 11:02:44 AM »

Yes, Babi, I too have had my questions, but am keeping an open mind. I have never read Feiler but checked out a few things to get to know him and his work a little better online. I found the first 3 chapters quite informative, regardless. I just know this is going to be an interesting discussion. I have become a political junkie in my 50's. There was a bit of a stir at our Bible study this past election in spite of us all being of the same faith. I was surprised at all the different views and reasons for supporting the candidates. We decided to .....agree to disagree. LOL I LOVE that option. As far as going to church, I somtimes walk out in a haze even though I am of the hearing. LOL I suppose there are many ways we can recieve the messages intended for us. I truly look forward to, and enjoy you in the discussions we have shared in. You are correct in saying the adults are there of their chosing in comparison to the children because they have to be. Although, I personally would much rather teach children, they are new and like sponges, some adults are all set in their ways and resist being open to possibilities. I admire our deacon who facilitates our Bible study. He and his wife are extremely knowledged and I find I learn something new each week.

Sally, I hope your library will get your book.

Annie, I too can't wait to get started!

Jonathan · « **Reply #66 on:** January 29, 2010, 12:10:11 PM »

I cannot understand the many doubts and questions that this book is raising in your minds. I believe that AMERICA'S PROPHET restores the promise to a woebegone land. With its many wonders it may well join the canon of scripture and become the Sixth book of Moses. I love the illustrations, especially the 1881 cartoon on page 198, with Moses, dressed as Uncle Sam, parting the waters of the Atlantic to speed up the arrival of the weak and tired and forlorn. The only discordant note I can find is the statue of liberty. Trust the French to come up with the wrong model.

ANNIE · « **Reply #67 on:** January 29, 2010, 04:56:57 PM »

Did you all see the Wall Street Journal's cartoon this morning??? I love it! And, right on time for our discussion. They are announcing the new iPad from Mac and this is WSJ's reaction to it. This was on our author's wedsite today.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3162018&id=67163162953

ANNIE · « **Reply #68 on:** January 29, 2010, 05:03:04 PM »

Jonathan,
So glad to see you have your hopes back in place and are enjoying this book.
I believe that I said that I would put up questions but I have decided that they are not what I want to do with this book.
So, if you would all read the links and think about what Bruce Feiler is saying to us, we can get started on Monday morning.

I have an f2f meeting in the afternoon. That will be "The Measure of a Man" by Sidney Poitier. So far, all who have read it have enjoyed it.

Babi · « **Reply #69 on:** January 30, 2010, 10:31:18 AM »

Very true, BELLA. Children are very receptive and adults can be very
closed in their views. My brief experience in teaching the younger
generation was with teens. They were not that receptive and tended to
be restless and eager to be out. I was sadly aware of my shortcomings as a teacher there.

I have't gotten that far yet, Jonathan. I'm trusting Feiler to be able
to support much of what he says. At this point, I am simply finding
questions to be answered. I also see things as natural to the times
that Feiler sees as significant. I also find things that delight me.
We shall see.

ANNIE · « **Reply #70 on:** January 30, 2010, 10:32:25 PM »

We are getting closer to the opening day of our discussion. I hope you are all ready.

Babi · « **Reply #71 on:** January 31, 2010, 10:10:35 AM »

I'm reading, I'm reading! But I've already got so many notes marked.

JoanP · « **Reply #72 on:** January 31, 2010, 03:22:30 PM »

Am ready - Annie, did you see the reference to Fraunces' Tavern? Did we eat there? Or talk about it? I know we ate at a tavern with a SeniorNet group. Awful memory - this might help - http://www.frauncestavernmuseum.org/

Isn't it funny how things jump out at you while you are reading something else. I'm not sure how this is going to work - but wanted to share it with you. If it doesn't work I'll try something else...but you MUST take a look at this! Scroll down...

http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/life/15-things-you-never-noticed-on-a-dollar-575113/

ANNIE · « **Reply #73 on:** February 01, 2010, 07:55:14 AM »

Good morning everyone

Seems a bit early but I am looking forward to this discussion and the author's presentation of Moses as our country's prophet. I believe that I heard on the audio interview, our author claim that Moses was one of our founder fathers also?
What does the phrase "the Promised Lane" mean? Did the Pilgrims, on arriving here after a horrendous trip across the Atlantic, truly think this was a Promised Land?

Yes, JoanP, the SN group ate at the Fraunces Tavern in 1998 and the SL group ate there in 2008. We were celebrating our first decade as a book discussion group in 2008. I thought I was imagining things when Feiler wrote about it but it is the place where Washington bid farewell to his officers. Many of our group have sat in that restaurant for dinner. Did we remember or even discuss Washington being there??

Our Latin students who are joining us should be able to translate for us the phrases on our dollar bill. This link that you have discovered references the Latin plus the meanings of the symbols,ie., the owls, the eagle, the pyramid and the shining eye, that are on our money . Seems that early on, our founding fathers claimed God's leadership and protection for this new country (and put their money where there mouth was?) Sorry about that, I just couldn't resist.

Another of the Bible references to Moses's journey comes early on when Columbus is quoted during his first and second journeys to America. Did I get this right--it is in an EXISTING journal?

Often when we hear religion and politics being discussed it is in a negative light. How can politics and religion be a positive force for each other? How does Feiler make this argument?

I tried twice last night to listen to the Travis Smiley interview of our author but kept getting distracted. Will try again now.

Babi · « **Reply #74 on:** February 01, 2010, 09:38:08 AM »

Is this discussion now officially under way? I see ANNIE has asked some
questions in her last post. One that really caught my eye: How can politics and religion be a positive force for each other?
It has always seemed to me that politics is bound to be a negative
force for religion. Getting involved in politics and power struggles has
sent the Church off the rails more than once. As for religion affecting
politics, I would say it is positive only in the sense that it may contribute
to the integrity and moral views of those involved. And there is no
argument that it did contribute to the world view of America's early
founders and leaders.

bellamarie · « **Reply #75 on:** February 01, 2010, 09:42:16 AM »

Annie...I am so impressed ipad is being promoted using Moses and the tablets. What a prophetic, brilliant idea. I began teaching computers in a Catholic grade school back in 1984, when Apple was the user friendly computer for schools. I was impressed with their ingenuity back then, and they just continue to impress me. They are so far ahead of all the rest. Although, now I use an HP.

Babi...I also taught Confirmation classes to teens for seven years and yes, keeping their attention while they are just beginning to deal with hormones proved to be a real challenge. I have to say I was very proud of all of my classes though, on the day they met the Bishop and were able to answer his random questions proved they really were getting it. Nothing more self gratifying for me then to see my students show off their knowledge.

Jonathon...Page 198?? Oh heavens I have reread chapters 1-2 at least three times already and can't seem to get to ch. 3 let alone pg. 198. I'm thinking, I like Feiler, would be considered the Pedantic son of the four, at the Seder feast, asking and needing more details. lol I find it can confuse and frustrate me at times. I feel like the llittle engine that could...chug a lug, chug a lug, I'll get to where I need to be in my own time. lolol

JoanP...Those two sites are so very interesting. Thank you for sharing them. I can see I am going to be learning much here.

So, today is Feb 1st, let the discussion begin!!!!

bellamarie · « **Reply #76 on:** February 01, 2010, 10:37:41 AM »

Annie,

Quote

How can politics and religion be a positive force for each other?

In my opinion I feel they can be a positive force when the politicians and the religious leaders continue the same work God commissioned Moses to do, lead the people by the laws of the land and by the laws God gave to Moses. Lead the people with unselfish goals or intent. Politics are seen in such a negative eye today, as is religion. It seems more and more people mistrust the leaders of both politics and religion due to the flaws and midguidance by some politicians and religious leaders. People today are uprising and shouting for accountablity, transparency, and simple honesty, much like the people when Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments, he found people of little faith uprising and trying to take matters into their own hands.

Positive can only come in these two areas when the leaders prove to be trustworthy, and show the people they truly do have their best interest at heart. The land of milk and honey Moses led them to, is one and the same the politicians are attempting to lead the people today to....a better living, with jobs, health care, peace, harmony, love of mankind, etc. Much like Moses had to make decisions to put himself aside and only think of the good of the people, so too must every politician and leader, put their self interests aside to accomplish the good of the people.

I have to say early on in this discussion, although Feiler has used Moses as the figure our founding fathers seemed to emmulate in beginning to create a more perfect union in this great land of the free, America the beautiful, I see "GOD" is the true leader of all. Moses, like our presidents, politicians, and prophets were/are simply his Apostles commissioned to do his work. The American people are and always have been the creation of God and he will protect and care for them always. He will intervene when man becomes too much of a force in the world that it hurts and destroys "His" creation. As he dealt with many Kings, pharaohs, false prophets, etc. throughout time, he will continue to with religious leaders of all faiths and politicians who have the intent of destroying what he has created. They have all been given the power along with laws to govern by, and when they misuse this power, God will intervene. Politician or prophet is only as powerful as God allows them to be.

The facts on American history and religion Feiler has given us just in these first chapters is astounding!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #77 on:** February 01, 2010, 01:34:16 PM »

In the blurp about the book on Virtual Bookshelf - i'm not sure where it came from, perhaps Amazon - it says that BF portrays Moses as a real founding father.
So i comment as a general statement that i wouldn't say Moses is our real founding father, i would say that the Moses/Exodus story is a long, exciting, adventurous Biblical story brought to many of our lives by Charleston Heston, but to previous generations by their ministers and Bible reading. The themes are universal: oppression, liberation, making a new society. So, it was appealing to many of our ancestors and easily used in quotations, etc......... that doesn't make Moses a founding father.

Since i have to return my book to the library tomorrow - it is a "new book" so i cld only keep it for 2 weeks as someone else has it on hold - i made many, many notes as i was reading. The first one was about Bradford. ......... He WAS a minister, he talked in the language that he knew, it might even be labeled plagarism in today's world, altho i guess ministers get a pass on quoting scripture even if they don't identify it.

I don't think it should be at all surprising that many of the leaders in any field of occupation used scripture to get their points across since every piece of education was teaching it. Remember, of all the colleges that were instituted in colonial America - i think there were 7 - only the U of Pennsylvania, one of the founders being Ben Franklin, was not affiliated w/ a church.

As w/ all institutions, religion or politics can be positive forces, but, as we are all aware, they have also been very negative forces in our history. They are afterall run by human beings, who embody both of those forces very compatably. ...............jean

Jonathan · « **Reply #78 on:** February 01, 2010, 02:32:52 PM »

It seems somehow fitting that Feiler's AMERICA'S PROPHET should follow Kipling's KIM in our reading. Just look at the strange parallels. The lama, like Moses, comes down from the mountain-top,after 40 years yet he says, with his knowledge of The Law, yet wanting to free himself and others from the Wheel of Life, an enslavement just as great as the servitude of the Hebrews in Egypt.

Feiler, like Kim, finds himself living in two worlds. In modern America, and, also, with his ancestors at the foot of Mt. Sinai. Celebrating Thanksgiving in the fall, and Passover in spring. Naming his identical twin daughters Eden, after the famous ancient garden, and Tybee, after the beautiful beach at Savannah, Ga. Isn't that charming. But what will it do to the girls?

And so, after walking the bible across the Middle East to find his roots, Feiler finds with amazement that these roots have all along been feeding the branches of American history above his head. What an adventure!

East and West do seem to meet in Kipling's Kim. Ancient and modern are brought together in Feiler's unique look at history.

JoanP · « **Reply #79 on:** February 01, 2010, 05:13:16 PM »

Jonathan, still with one foot in Kim too, trying to decode what happened to the ancient lama (wasn't he all of 60 years?

) - I must say I enjoyed your comment here today. Was he Kim's redeemer - or simply a catalyst?

Mabel, before you take your book back to the Library, I hope you'll read Chapter IV. That was the chapter that really got me thinking about the religion and politics question.

Annie, how far are we discussing this week? Please forgive my mention of Chapter IV if I've read ahead. There is much to discuss in these early chapters this week I know. But I'm going to agree with the Masons' PR man - (the Masons need a PR guy since Dan Brown got finished with them! ) who lunched with Bruce Feiler in Fraunces' Tavern. (Annie - I thought that name was familiar - back in 1998 was it? we Bookies had our first gathering in NY - and dined in---Fraunces' Tavern! No, Annie, I don't think we discussed George Washington - we were so thrilled to meet one another face to face!!)

When the author pressed the PR guy with the question whether Masonry shaped the narrative of America, he answered that that was too much of a stretch, that it assumed too much. (He actually believed there was no greater influence on American life that Jefferson.) I guess I feel the same way some of the other posters do this morning regarding Moses' influence on the shaping of America. I am impressed however, at the number of inscriptions from the Old Testament - from Deuteronomy and Leviticus - that we are reading about here - on the Liberty Bell, the seal for the new United States and so much more. Clearly the Exodus story was in the minds of our Founding Fathere.

Here's what impressed me most about the influence of politics on religion - or religion on politics. I think it was the Princeton professor who expressed the pattern here. Beginning with Exodus, we see oppression, then liberation, a new social contract, followed by a political struggle - and then it begins all over again, repression, opprssion, liberation...
When God is left out of the picture - when he is forgotton, the struggle begins anew. Does it have to be like this? Are we locked into this pattern? Each time we need to find a new Moses to get us back on the path again. Moses was God's instrument for the Exodus liberation. And probably just as important, he provided the law, the social contract. But a new Moses is needed for each cycle. Exodus established the pattern. .

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Author Topic: America's Prophet by Bruce Feiler February Bookclub Online (Read 43851 times)