America's Prophet by Bruce Feiler February Bookclub Online

[ALF43]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

     

AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann

Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.

When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009

LINK:  Moses on the Web 

Discussion Leader:  Ann

I have so many comments, I don't know where to begin.  I love Feiler's statement in the 1st chapter :"Stuck with our parents' genes, we seemed less interested in being burdened with their God as well.  And we certainly didn't want to talk to them about it."
How true that is (except in my son's home) where discussions of religion, God and Christianity fill the rooms, bu all ages of folk.

I had no idea that Columbus compared himself to Moses in 1492 when he took his Exodus.  How do we know that for sure?  Did the pilgrims feel as he did and Moses did, in their dismal situation,  prior to arriving in Plymouth colony? How about John Howland,  just a servant who found himself in the "promised land" at Plymouth free and ending up setting up an estate there.  His gravestone, as wlll as  his 10 children and 88 grandchildren give testimony to how important he became in his new land.  He was one of the first comers into this land and was the last man that left that come over on the Mayflower.  There is always a thread of hope and a new land to find.   Moses, Columbus, Bradford and the pilgrims had no friends to welcome them nor inns to refresh their bodies.  How frightening must that have been to come to the new world?  Oppression, hunger, more wilderness and suffering and yet God sustained them all .  They cried unto the Lord and He heard their voice and looked on their adversity.

[mabel1015j]

Joan - i have read Ch iv, i'm more than 1/2 thru the book.

I think BF makes an important statement on pg 21 "The American elevation of Moses grew out of an extrordinary collusion of trends: geographic, religious and technical."............Religious and technical meaning Martin Luther and the printing press would open the Bible to millions of LAY readers and Bibles began to be printed in the vernacular so lay people could read and understand them.

Do you remember that Time Magazine put Gutenberg at #1 when they made their list of most important people of the last 1000 yrs. That was so appropriate because of the enormous influence the printing press had for allowing people to be able to own a book and to read fiction and non-fiction. It provided an exponential expansion of knowledge.

 In the American colonies, the Bible was one of the few books that many people had to read. The majority of the people in the colonies were not wealthy enough to afford books.

The Exodus story resonated w/ colonists a long way from the rule of the king. Even when the British soldiers marched into Boston, i'm sure being  so far from the "tyrant" made it easier for many people to accept the idea of rebellion against him. The Bible argues against the divine right of kings - a premise of the Enlightenment which was also a pillar of the American Revolution.

 BF calls the Bible "a radical political document." I hadn't tho't of that before. I have perceived the Bible as history, philosophy and the basis of 3 religions, it's a nice tho't that it is also a radical political document..........i would add a LIBERAL, radical political document. The right-wing has demonized liberal tho't and persons, they seem to have forgotten that our founding fathers, our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution and also the Hebrew/Christion Bible are based on liberal principles........................o.k., i'll stop for now - lots to talk about in this book...................jean


two interesting sites re: Gutenberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg

http://inventors.about.com/od/gstartinventors/a/Gutenberg.htm

[mabel1015j]

A correction - it was The Biography Channel that put Gutenberg at the top of their person of the millenium list.........stating that his invention of movable type  allowed the knowledge of everybody else on the list to be circulated and thus making them even more important than if they survived only in their locale...............jean

[ANNIE]

On the radio today, I heard the president compare himself to Joshua as he carries on with Moses work in the promised land, America.  Were you aware that Obama's election happened 40 years after MLK said he had seen the promised land but he wouldn't be going there with the people. How prophetic was that? 
In the interview with Travis Smiley, Feiler tells us that the Moses journey continues to happen over and over.  What did he say about trying, failing, fail better which he attributes to Samuel Becket but actually is biblical. In Time magazine, Obama is not Joshua but is taking Moses' journey where failing is part of this story.
If we keep telling the story and living it over and over, we can continue the dream.  We can fail but also, always be there for success.  We have to have faith and hope and we have to have a reason to believe.  By quoting and comparing our journey to Moses and the Israelites, we maintain faith and hope.

[ANNIE]

JoanP,
We are discussing the first three chapters this week and then will go on to the next two chapters on Feb 8th.
I was particularly impressed with Jefferson, Adams and Franklin wanting the US seal to contain the view of Moses leading the Israelites through the Red Sea with the Pharoah and his army drowning on the other side.  These men felt that part of America's story was part of Moses' story. 

[Babi]

 BELLA, I was caught by your mention of the 'pedantic son'. I had to go
look up the 'four sons' of the Seder, and the explanation I found did not
use the word pedantic.  Obviously there are variations. I think the one
I found may have been a Conservative explanation, and it used the Wise
Son, the Simple Son, the Rebellious Son, and the very Young (and silent)
Son.
  I agree wholly that Moses was the servant; God was the leader. That is
evident from beginning to end of the story of the calling and leadership
of Moses. We have undoubtedly been greatly influenced by Cecil B. DeMille and Charlton Heston. I believe Feiler is correct when he says Moses was not  “a domineering and heroic character”.   His influence over the people who followed him was definitely due to  fact that they believed God led him and spoke to him.

 

“With greater mobility and more choices, we no longer passed down religion seamlessly  from one generation to the next.”   

In the days when this country was founded, there was general belief and acceptance of faith in God and adherence to the religion in which one was raised.  Many a home had only one book, and that was the Bible. Children were taught to read at home, from the Bible.  Biblical references were commonplace. It is not surprising that we should see a
great deal in them in the political speeches and writing of the times.

[Ella Gibbons]

MABEL's sentence is one that I agree with and I shall repeat it here:

".... I wouldn't say Moses is our real founding father, i would say that the Moses/Exodus story is a long, exciting, adventurous Biblical story brought to many of our lives by Charleston Heston, but to previous generations by their ministers and Bible reading. The themes are universal: oppression, liberation, making a new society. So, it was appealing to many of our ancestors and easily used in quotations, etc......... that doesn't make Moses a founding father. "I

My thought in reading the first three chapters of this book is that Feiler is stretching here.  My opinion only, but I am a student (certainly far from a scholar) of history and I can't remember one time when I read in biographies or other books that our founding fathers discussed Moses, etc.

That is not to say that the book is irrelevant or untrue.  It's very interesting in many aspects.

Don't most of us believe that America is superior to other nations and where did we get such a belief?  

Is it from the Bible?  This fellow Gomes and Felier believe that. (pg.33)

 I think of all the young people who do not know the story of Moses and yet feel America's exceptionalism.

[bellamarie]

Annie,

On the radio today, I heard the president compare himself to Joshua as he carries on with Moses work in the promised land, America.  Were you aware that Obama's election happened 40 years after MLK said he had seen the promised land but he wouldn't be going there with the people.

Yes, it seems our president has a thing for Joshua.  As Feiler mentions in his book,  Obama calls us to be the Joshuas now rather than the Moses.  I can only conjecture, he wants the next generation, the younger generation to lead this country into a new way of thinking and governing.  I'm not so easily impressed with leaders in politics who draw from Scripture and liken themselves to prophets.  I think in my own opinion I am more impressed in the action they take that shows they are keeping with the will of God, which has and always will be, the good of the people.  I feel scripture has been quoted and misquoted over the centuries to inject a certain acceptance from the people.  We have to be very careful in giving our trust to any leader of any nation be it political or religious due to the fact they invoke prophets and scripture.  Many a false prophets and harmful leaders throughout American history and Biblical times used such to overtake nations, and convince people to trust and follow them only to find they were not worthy of such.  

Ella, Welcome back my dear friend.  I am so happy to see you.  I hope you have had a smooth recovery.  As for do I personally think America is superior to other nations, I have to say I think we are in some areas, but have areas other nations are superior to us.  As for human rights, equality, and freedom I feel we are superior.  As for economically, militarily and technology, I feel we lag behind and depend on other nations to supply our needs.  In a sense I believe this is the balance God intended so as not to give one nation too much power.  We as a world need to work with one another, we must learn from and teach to each other.  Its like the scripture/song says, "We are many parts, we are all one body and the gifts we have, we are given to share, and the spirit of love makes us one indeed."

I've never felt the Bible has given me the idea we are superior, it has given me the wisdom and knowledge to know that only God is superior and we like all other nations are here to be his servants.  Haven't got to pg. 33 yet so I can't comment further.

I too agree with Mabel's(Jean) statement about Moses not being one of our founding fathers, and she wrote it so eloquently. 

[mabel1015j]

Alf said "I had no idea that Columbus compared himself to Moses in 1492 when he took his Exodus.  How do we know that for sure?"

I have sev'l places in my notes where i note "no footnote to verify." There is much in this book that we don't know where it comes from. I'd like to know.

Ella - i also have written along side a couple notes "that's stretching" to get it to fit his premise. I'll speak to them as we come to those sections. But i agree the book is interesting and gives us something to think about.

An important point made by BF - the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent.
Also, "the Moses narrative is built on 2 pillars - freedom and responsibility." ............."the Bible's message is there is no freedom w/out obligation. True freedom depends on giving up some freedoms in return for a civil and just society."

Political scientists have had constant discussions about the balance of individual rights and "order" in society. When i taught U.S. History I, during the study of the Constitutional period, my students had lively discussions about that dicotomy. How much free speech do i have; how big can my gun/tank(?) be in my right to bear arms; how much and where can i proselytize my religion; can i shoot the thief after he leaves my house,  etc. etc. I loved teaching that period.

BF says the Pilgrims were the first to sear these 2 pillars into American life which is one of the reasons they proved so influential in American history. The Mayflower Compact ( the first political document, sometimes called the first constitution, in U.S. history) agreed to the covenant when they agree to combine themselves into a civil body. The two ideas of freedom and law are entrenched in the defining events of our history starting w/ the Revolution and the Constitution according to BF.

Isn't that the argument that is ensuing about what rights people who commit "terrorist" acts should have? In what courts they should be tried?  .....................jean

[bellamarie]

Jean...BF calls the Bible "a radical political document."  

I don't agree with this point of view, and I have heard others refer to it as such.  I see the Bible as the word of God, written by those who not only witnessed events, but who were inspired by God to give this information for generations to come.  It is our encyclopedia of how the world began, and a guidebook to help us learn from the past, so as not to repeat the mistakes, in order to protect, serve and survive living in a world of so many different nationalities, diversities, cultures, faiths and ideas.  The Bible is our tool in building our faith and community.  Many of our founding fathers had nothing else to draw from in forming the Delaration, Constitution, local laws, and rules in order to govern in a way that would bring about an America where we could all live and survive together.  The Bible is the book from which every party has quoted and drew from be it conservative, liberal or moderate.  Yes, there are many parts that show the political aspects, but with all due respect,  I don't agree its a liberal, "radical political document."

"An important point made by BF - the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent. "
Thank you for pointing this out.  I too, found no precedent for such a statement.


Babi, I  had to look up the Seder, pedantic and four sons.  I am amazed at what I am learning in just the first chapters.

[mabel1015j]

I believe that BF was saying that Moses leading the oppressed to freedom, breaking from authority (the pharaoh) and setting up their own civil community was a radical political act for the time. I added liberal because the liberal philosophies of the Enlightenment speak to denying the "divine rt of kings" and people having inalienable rights and the right to overthrow a gov't that is not supporting those rights.

Your quote: "Many of our founding fathers had nothing else to draw from in forming the Delaration, Constitution, local laws, and rules in order to govern in a way that would bring about an America where we could all live and survive together," is not true for the men who were involved in writing those documents and building our gov't. Most of those men were very well read, even if self-taught, especially the Greeks and Romans and the Enlightment, as well as the Bible.

 
"An important point made by BF - the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent. " .........that whole quote was from BF, the bold type was mine. He "said" there was no precedent for anybody breaking from the CC or the CofE. The point being that the Protestants had again made a radical move that was unprecedented. .......................Radical is not necessarily a negative word. In fact, in our early history it is most important to the beginning of our country.........all of the founding fathers might be called radical.........remember the quote "we must all hang together or we may all hang separately?" They meant that literally, they were breaking the English/King's law, were "traitors" to their country - remember there was no United States of America yet, their country was England. If they did not win the Revolution - it WAS a revolt, a revolution in the truest sense - they were going to be executed.

The non-violent civil rights workers were "radicals." They were doing something radically different from the norm.

re: your comments of the way you see the Bible, they interest me and i will have some questions for you when we get to the chapter on the Civil War. I mean that seriously, i'm not being sarcastic. ............... jean

[bellamarie]

Jean,

Your quote: "Many of our founding fathers had nothing else to draw from in forming the Delaration, Constitution, local laws, and rules in order to govern in a way that would bring about an America where we could all live and survive together," is not true for the men who were involved in writing those documents and building our gov't. Most of those men were very well read, even if self-taught, especially the Greeks and Romans and the Enlightment, as well as the Bible.

I agree they were welll read and self-taught, yet, much of their history and knowledge came from the first teachings, word of God, in becoming the scholars they were.  My personal belief is ....the first man was created in the llikeness of God.  God instructed men, men then generation after generation passed down the knowledge gained throughout history.  Hence the word of God, scipture, (the Bible) even though it was not printed for many years, it was collected and passed down,  being the first from which man would gain this knowledge, be it self- taught. As Feiler points out, the first five Commandents teach us how to have a relationship with God/our faith, the next five deals with our relationship with people. Moses also brought down the 613 laws, hence the first knowledge for man to organize, govern and live under as a civilized nation.  The founding fathers drew from this knowledge in forming the Declaration, Constitution, etc.  

Yes, I think in today's society and political ideology, the word "liberal and radical" could have a negative connotation.  Thank you for clarifying.  I must say, you being a history teacher and myself being a religion teacher, we will in fact have strong  ideas and beleifs.  It has been throughout history, the two shall not always meet.  I will yeild the history knowledge to you, and humbly confess I am no scholar in either of these subjects.  I am and will continue to learn through my Bible study, mass, books, and yes discussions such as these.  No sarcasim taken.  

[JoanP]

I've been thinking of some of your comments about "the BF stretch."   I think that someone referred to Columbus comparing himself to Moses when he set sail - thinking that was a stretch and asking how do we know whether he actually said that.  Feiler tells us that Columbus recorded this in his journal seven weeks after he set sail  - the entry was dated September 2 -

"The rising of the sea was very favorable to me as it happened formerly to Moses when he led the Jews from Egypt."

Did you see his exhaustive Bibliography in the back of the book?  It seems that Feiler did his homework and doesn't make too many comments that stretch the facts without some bibliographical support.  Also - did you notice that there is an Index with page numbers - so you can quickly find and reread passages.

Do you find it interesting that none of the settlers who followed so closely the Hebrew Bibles were Jewish?  Feiler tells us that Pilgrims didn't even like Jews - and yet the Exodus story that freed the Israelites was their blueprint for escape from oppression.  I've been wondering whether the term, "Hebrew Bible" refers to the Old Testament?

I'm not sure in which chapter we read about the early colleges requiring courses in Hebrew.  Harvard, founded in 1636, required a graduation address in Hebrew - every year up until sometime in the 1800's.  Does anyone understand why?   Does anyone know when Jews first made the voyage to the new land?

Actually, I wasn't going to post any of this - it was your posts that got me thinking.  I really want to talk about Moses himself.

[JoanP]

Did you notice Feiler's description of Moses as being "clinically depressed at the end?" The cycle of failure and then repentence was the reason his appeal endures, he says.  People  relate to this struggle with adversity is very American - and very Mosaic too, he says.  He says the "Children of God were always meant to be opposed - outsiders."   The problems arise when they were successful...   

[bellamarie]

I did not see Moses as being "clinically depressed, or a failure."  I feel Moses accepted he was the chosen one to lead the people out of Egypt and he made unselfish decisions, as Feiler points out, so in the end I believe his glimpse of the promised land had to be joyous. Moses was selfless, and so he would not be looking for a reward for doing God's work.  I think he died a happy man, knowing he did what God asked of him.  He would receive much greater rewards in heaven.  

I found a passage that says:  Soon after viewing the promised land, Moses died and was buried there in Moab.   He was by then very elderly, but apparently still very strong and vigorous: "Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated."  (Dueteronomy 34:7 RSV)  The Lord probably just had him have something like a sudden massive heart attack-quick and relatively painless.  We need not feel too sorry for Moses for the way he died however.  While he didn't quite make it into Israel's physical promised land, he was nearly always a loyal, obedient and hardworking servant of The Lord.  His humanity failed him, but he didn't fail God.  He is still held in very high regard by God, and the Bible clearly states that he will be in The Kingdom of God, (Matthew 17:3), the true eternal Promised Land.

In  my timeline of Jewish history its shows in the 1830's German Jews begin to emigrate to the United States.

The Hebrew Bible is a term referring to the Jewish Bible (Tanakh) as originally written mostly in Biblical Hebrew, with some Biblical Aramaic.  The term closely corresponds to contents of the Jewish Tanakh and Protestant Old Testament and does not include the deutrocanonical portions of the Roman Catholic or the Anagigoskomena portions of the Eastern Orthodox Old Testaments.  The term does not imply naming, numbering or ordering of books, which varies with Biblical canon.  The term "Hebrew Bible" is an attempt to provide specficity with respect to contents, while avoiding allusion to any particular interpretative tradition or theological school of thought.  It is widely used in academic writing and interfaith discussion in relatively neutral contexts meant to include dialogue amongst all religious traditions, but not widely in the inner discourse of the religions which use its text.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANP:  I cannot speak for Jean, but what I am suggesting when I say that Feiler is "stretching" is that he has done extensive research (as you say), all to fit his premise.  Bits and pieces here and there and they add up, don't they?

Still, it's an interesting book and one we can appreciate for his work

[GinnyAnn]

Right now I don't have a copy of the book  Had to return it to the library and am trying to get it again.

Some random thoughts from what I remember of the book. First, I feel this is a more scholarly book than Feiler's Abraham.  Second, I was first reading it at Thanksgiving and the book starts with a Thanksgiving meal so it felt right to be reading it then. Third I remember getting bogged down in all the details. When I finally get a copy again I hope I am not too far behind, as I didn't find it a fast read.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, BELLA, for the welcome.  I am walking now, albeit with a limp, and driving.  Independence!

I thought the story of DUCHE was very sad, didn't you? (pg.58)  It has always amazed me that none of these rebels were hanged by the British as traitors.  Perhaps there were???  How very brave they were and how fortunate we are to have had them at an opportune time. 

But poor Duche, one night in jail did him in, plus his letter to Washington and his life was ruined.  Could not he have been forgiven by Washington and Congress?

On pg.47 Feiler states:  "it seems that specifically what they were looking for is authority.....An authority higher than the king.  God gives you that authority."

That I believe, we are all searching for a higher authority.

[Babi]

 Well, Joshua was not a prophet, BELLA, so Obama's comparison is certainly more modest than that.
   Quoting scripture out of context has been common enough from people trying to make a bad idea sound good. The best counter to that, of course, is to know the material well enough to recognize when it's being twisted or misquoted.

 JEAN, the book has no footnotes, but there is an extensive bibliography
in the back, and Feiler is always careful to identify those he interviews
and quotes.
   

"the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent."

  No precedent?  The existence of a Church of England is due to a break away from the Catholic Church. Martin Luther and the Protestant
Reformation surely constitute a precedent.

“The true church of God is all his elected leaders of the past, and that includes the Hebrew prophets”

. (John Kemp,  Pilgrim settlement re-enactor.)   
 That’s not a definition of the Church that I’ve ever heard before, and I cannot think it accurate.  There have been many 'elected leaders'
whose actions and behavior were the antithesis of a 'true church of God'. 
 I wonder what definitions we might come up with of  the ‘true church
of God’?

[Ella Gibbons]

Listed below are three of our discussions, good discussions, of founding fathers.  There can be no doubt that John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were instrumental in the founding of this nation.  

I do not have the time to skim through them for references to Moses, but I have no remembrance of any.

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/AmericanSphinx.html  (Thomas Jefferson, the author was Joseph Ellis)

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/JohnAdams.html  (the author was David McCullough)

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/BenjaminFranklin.html  (the author was Walter Isaacson)

[bellamarie]

Ginny,  Yes, I am feeling as you stated, "bogged down", due to so many details.  One entire chapter on Exodus and then one entire chapter on the Liberty Bell seemed a bit much for me.  Granted, there are readers who would find these details interesting, and I did learn from them....I was counting the pages til the next chapter. I personally am finding this book to be Feiler's compilation of his research of travels mixed in with his life experiences and learned knowledge in his studies.  Although he has many sources to conclude his opinions, I have some questions on the validity of some facts he states.  Given said that, I do enjoy reading the history of the book since I never took much interest in History class while in school.  Dates, places, names and events seemed to leave me as quickly as I would read it, and still does.  I recall my history teacher calling me up to his desk, and saying with a stern voice, " Patterfritz, I plan to give you a D- in my class so you will pass this required subject, and so I will not have to have you again next year."  lol  Imagine that....I was so bored I created such disturbances for that poor man, and I am almost certain I failed everyone of his tests except for the ones I was able to look on my fellow students paper for answers.  Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!  If I don't highlight and make side notes in my books now, I am lost.    

Ella, I am so happy to hear you are now walking and have your independence back.  Yes, I did feel sad when I read the part about Duche'.  He was a brave man and stood up for what he believed in, and sad to say many a people have been persecuted for it. As I turn back to page 58, I notice I had made a notation that he reminded me of St. Paul.

I especially highlighted these parts:  "I think he believes he's doing God's work."  "And I've always thought this was the real Mosaic moment of the Revolution.  Duche' must have felt like Moses, going before the pharaoh."  "And the only way you can do that is if you believe that God has called you to do it."  "And I'm sure his agony is the agony of all Mosses in American history.  He had all the anguish that Dr. King had in 1968.  He had all the doubt that Abraham Lincoln had.  He had all the concerns of George Washington.  Is this the right thing?

I especially like this: pg. 59 "I asked Tim Safford if he thought Duche' failed the leadership moment." "I don't.  I'm his successor,"

This is what I feel about Moses, he too did not fail his leadership, because he had many successors to follow him.

Babi,  Indeed Joshua was not a prophet, I'm not sure what I personally felt was Obama's inference for using the statement, pg. 5, "Today we're called to be the Joshuas of our times, to be the generation that finds our way across this river."  Interpretation is a tricky thing, what one interprets can be completley different from another's.  I completely agree, scripture tells us to arm ourselves with the knowledge to prepare us for those who misuse scripture for their own self purposes.

[JoanP]

Weren't you astounded to read that the Book of Common Prayer in which Jacob Duche scratched out all references to the king still exists?  That BF got to hold it in his hands?  (Did he actually hold it - or just get a look at it?) One of an author's perks - seeing, handling  these artifacts firsthand - such as the first Liberty Bell.  
Poor Duché lost his nerve, believing that he would be hung for treason if the British took Philadelphia.  Understandable. After all, he was human.  He shared that with Moses.   It was a miracle to me that he didn't destroy the incriminating book!

But Moses, Moses of  scripture is portrayed as more than human, isn't he?  God talks directly to him.  Perhaps He spoke to Duché too, motivating him, inspiring him before the Continental Congress.  Maybe that's how God communicated with Moses - through inspiration... So, what became of Duché?  He died a forgotten man, was buried in an unmarked grave.  I can't help but think of Moses - who never made it to the promised land because of his weakness...

Ella, did you read what Feiler had to say about the Founders - that none of them were particularly religious?  - he didn't say that they were anti-religious, but that their interest in the Exodus story came from their belief that slavery and oppression were contrary to natural law and that freedom from oppression required new laws to ensure responsibility and freedom.  This is where their interest  was centered - not on Moses.  I did think it was ironic that they scrapped an image of Moses on the seal for a pyramid though - a symbol of the Egyptian Pharaoh's burial place...

[ALF43]

No precedent?  The existence of a Church of England is due to a break away from the Catholic Church. Martin Luther and the Protestant
Reformation surely constitute a precedent.

AMEN Babi!
Martin Luther was excommunicated and considered an "outlaw" because of his break away from the Roman Catholic Church when he questioned the authority of the Pope and the Church elders. 

Thank you Joan and Babi for pointing out the select bibliography in the back.  I had not even looked at it.  Next time I will be more cautious in my quezstioning Mr. Feiler. 

[mabel1015j]

Yes, Ella, by "stretching" i meant that he is fitting history to meet his premise, it seems to me. For instance, later in the book he usurps various common words and relates them (only) to the Moses/Exodus story as tho there was a direct line from there to here..........i'll talk more about them when we get there, especially about the Stutue of Liberty - i.e. "light" and "water." He also often makes general statements which, of course since there are no footnotes, are attributed to no one, again i'll mention them specifically when we get to them. I'm not a fanatic about footnoting, but when an author makes a statement as fact, i like to know where he got his info. Listing a bibliography doesn't help me w/ that.

I have always been curious and have not received/found an answer as to how someone like Geo Whitefield could speak and be heard by 8.000, let alone 30,000 in Philadelphia, before electricity. I know some ministers were said to have booming voices, but most people don't. It's just a curiosity of mine. BTW there is a mistake, it may be a printing mistake, in the Geo W story. It says he was up and down the east coast in "1840." I'm sure they meant 1740 - that was the FIRST Great Awakeing, there is a second one in the early 19th century, but Geo W would have been long dead by then or 101 yrs old! LOL

This intercolonial movement - the first Great AWakening - as BF says, was a vital precurser to the Am Revolution. Americans began to have a common experience in hearing these evangelistic ministers speaking. Previous to this time they tho't of themselves as South Carolinians, Pennsylvanians, New Yorkers, etc. plus "English." But as they took part in a common experience AND that common experience was pushing them to think about breaking from authority, creating a language of dissent, challenging convential truths such as "divine rt of kings" to rule over them, they began to think of themselves as Americans.............having a common enemy often unites people. As BF says "the revolutionary period....was marked by Protestanism in religion producing republicanism in gov't."

From a social history perspective - these evangilical mtgs were very entertaining to people who had little entertainment in their lives. Young people came together and met other young people in areas where people were often pretty isolated from each other. There was great emotionalism, even hysteria, and drama; there was music and a lot of hoopla - some fun in lives that could be pretty dreary.   

The other BF - Ben Franklin - published everybody, didn't he?!?

Another idea from the past that resonates today.............BF says the lesson of Leviticus is "....the land belongs to God, not humans and nobody should benefit too greatly or suffer to mightily for their work with Gods' bounty." I believe i remember recently of some fundamentalist/evangelical churches coming out in support of conservation and environmental causes. I should think that they would all be very supportive of those ideas...........but of course we know that no group is a monolith and that money has often been the priority of many groups and individuals in the past. Interpreting the Bible has been a history-long event, hasn't it, w/ always at least two sides to every issue.
Jean

[mabel1015j]

Someone asked when the first Jews came to the colonies. The Am Jewish Hist Museum lists these two statements - not quite the answer to the question, but gives a concept........

1678 - Jews in Rhode Island purchase land for cemetery
1698 - Four Jews are made citizens of South Carolina

I don't know how you were "made" a citizen of a state, never heard of that action before.................jean

[bellamarie]

Found this which I thought was really interesting.


An Abbreviated Timeline of Jewish Immigration to the United States

1654-1820 First wave of Jewish immigration to the United States. Fewer than 15,000 Jews fleeing religious intolerance travel here from Brazil, Portugal, Spain, Bordeaux, Jamaica, England, Curacoa, Holland and Poland. They found the first Jewish communities in the United States in NYC, Newport Rhode Island, Charleston, Savannah, and Philadelphia.
1820-1880 Second Wave of Jewish emigrants come from Germany brings 250,000 German Jews come to the United states.
1880 - 1920's A third wave of Jewish immigration follow son the heels of the Turkish Revolution and the collapse of the Ottoman empire. Sephardi Jews from the Balkans and Middle East begin to immigrate to the United States. They come from Turkey, Greece, and the lands that formed Yugoslavia.
1911-1920 Biggest wave of Syrian Jewish immigrants to the United States.
1881–1924 Waves of pogroms (anti-Jewish riots), poverty, and mandatory
conscription in the Jewish Pale of Settlement in Russia and Eastern Europe cause 2,000,000 Jews to emigrate to the United States
1914 The outbreak of World War I brings an influx of Jews from Eastern Europe to the US, including 138,051 in 1914 alone.
1917 Restrictions on immigration, including a literacy test, were instated that severely restricted the entry of Jews to the United States.
November 7th, 1919 On the second anniversary of the Russian Revolution, over 10,000 suspected communists and anarchists were arrested in what became known as the Palmer Raids. Palmer and Hoover found no evidence of a proposed revolution but large number of these suspects were held without trial for a long time. The vast majority were eventually released but 248 other people were deported to Russia. This included a large number of Jews including Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman and Mollie Steimer.
1921-1924 The National Origins Quota legislation passes, restricting the number of immigrants allowed into America to no more than two percent of the number of each nationality residing in the U.S. in 1890. Due to the National Origins Quota of 1924 few Eastern European refugees were allowed into the US during World War II.
1930's Jews of Yemen granted visa's to the United States.
1939 About 70,000 Sephardi Jews are now living in the United States, a majority of whom live in New York City.
1924–44 100,000 refugees fleeing Hitler, Pre-Holocaust arrive in the United States.
1945–60 250,000 Holocaust survivors arrive.
1956-1967 Egyptian and Syrian Jews come to the United States following the Suez crisis and other wars in the region. Israeli emigrants (Yordim) begin arriving in the United. Though they have migrated from the pre-statehood period to the present, numbers increase. Their communities include Israelis of (amongst others) Syrian, Lebanese, Yemenite, and Adenic descent.
1956 Hungarian Jews, fleeing the Soviet invasion of Hungary, come to the United States.
1959 Jews come to the US during the Cuban Revolution
1960's A wave of Jews from Algeria, Libya and Morocco come to the United States from France.
1968 Prague Spring brings Czechoslovakian Jews to the United States.
1970's Polish pogroms bring another wave of Jewish immigrants.
1972 there are at least 24,000 Jews of Syrian descent in NYC.
1979 The overthrow of the Shah precipitates a steady flow of Jews from Iran.
1979 First peak wave of Jews from the USSR.
1985-1990 over 140,000 Jews from former Soviet countries come to the US
1989 15-20 thousand Bukharin Jews from Central Asia emigrate to the United States from the former Soviet Union
Today Up to 50,000 Jews per year continue to emigrate to the United States.

Compiled by Jenny Romaine at Jews for Racial & Economic Justice.

http://www.jfrej.org/Jewish.Immigration.Timeline.html   

[ANNIE]

You rang a bell for me, Jean, when you reminded us that our founding fathers were well educated.  I remember that they were sent to study with well known teachers as they matured.  Sometimes living with the school master for a number of years and they were filled with the philosophy and laws of the Romans and the Greeks.  
Here's an interesting link about Roman Law:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law

I also recall that much of our Constitutional laws plus our bill of rights comes from the Magna Carta.
Link to Magna Carta and American Law: http://www.magnacharta.com/articles/article04.htm

I remember an old, old TV program that was about our revolution and our brave young radicals who fomented declaring our country free from the king. See "Founding Fathers" on the History Channel.   Samuel Adams was the Moses of that time as he lead many others to the fight for freedom.  He led the Boston Tea Party along with John Hancock.  After signing the Declaration of Independence, he returned to Boston and helped write the MA constitution and served as governor for several years.  I believe that  Sam and John Adams were second cousins.

Link to Sam Adams:  http://www.patriotresource.com/amerrev/people/patriots/samadams.html

Another link to Sam Adams, Patriot and Father of American Independence: http://www.americansonsofliberty.com/samadams.htm

[ANNIE]

Well, back to Moses and his leadership problems.  One thing stands out for me in Moses journey and that is his acceptance of God's saying he would not go to the promised land and his humility, staying behind while teaching the Israelites how to live in that distant place.  Were the tablets of God's laws going to be followed? 
I think that BF has done a good job of chronologically showing us the connections throughout our history to many Moses stories. 

[Babi]

 BELLA, I cheerfully confess to skimming over 'Exodus', since I'm well
familiar with that, and the Liberty Bell, since I felt it was getting
more attention than was reasonable. That still left plenty to read and
talk about. I am greatly enjoying learning about people I'd never heard of
before, such as Jacob Duche'.  Human nature never changes, does it?  The first meeting of the
 Continental Congress and they could not agree on opening prayer because they were of so many different denominations.  Duche' appears to have played a significant role. The painting of the reading of Psalm 35 is a powerful scene. 
  I appreciate Rev. Safford ‘s sense of a priestly bond of understanding
with his predecessor.  His sense of how Duche must have felt during all
this strikes me as very genuine.  I can well believe Duche’s feelings
were as Safford describes them:  scared, excited, sincere, uncertain. The
Book of Romans speaks strongly of authority being instituted of God and
of the Christian duty to submit to the established authority.  It would
take a good deal of hard soul-searching to be persuaded that the higher
authority… God…approved this rebellion.
  The key to that question, IMO, is whether you see God as establishing
the principle of authority as necessary in society, or whether you
believe, as some do, that every person in authority is placed there by God. The latter interpretation (again, IMO) does not hold up, but many
accept it.

 God speaking to Moses is certainly extraordinary, JOAN. But Moses
reaction is so perfectly human. 'Who, me? I can't do that!" The wonder of
it is that God is able to use people, despite their weaknesses and flaws.

.   I remember reading a first-hand account of  the
preaching of George Whitefield.  I’m not sure whether I read it in Ben Franklin’s autobiography or the Journal of John Wesley.  It said he had a powerful, sonorous voice.  He once preached out of doors to a crowd estimated at, if I remember correctly, 3000 people, and even those on the edges could hear him. That was in a city square, and I would suppose the surrounding buildings helped.
  30,000, ELLA?  Could one even find a crowd of 30,000 in one spot in those days?

[mabel1015j]

Annie and Marie - great sites, great info, thanks for those.

Jacob Duche is an example of people we never heard of who everyday do heroic things. Whether you are interested in the religious aspect of the story or not, it was a courageous act. I was intrigued by Geo Washington's response to JD"S letter to stop the war....."a ridiculous illiberal performance." IMO that again reinforces their respect for liberalism.

Babi - one of the reasons there are SO many protestant denominations is because of the "human behavior" to insist that what i believe is correct and so i'm going to argue w/ you about tidbits of behavior/belief. e.g. Do we sprinkle or dunk to baptist? .........You're right, it never changes. Makes life interesting.  

I think that there is a fine line between thinking "God is on our side/approves this rebellion/action, etc.," being arrogant enough to think we know what God "thinks/says,etc.," and becoming oppressive, even violent in our behavior toward others. I believe I should always look at the bigger concept and decide w/ my "God-given" intelligence whether it is the appropriate thing to do. Am i hurting others by pursuing this line of argument or behavior? Is it moral and ethical to do what i am intending to do? .................. I don't believe one has to be religious or of a particular religion to be moral and ethical. ................I think someone just wrote a book w/ some title similar to Do You Have to be REligious to be Moral.

30,000 people in Phila in those days would have had to have been everyone in the city.............? Maybe BF didn't mean all 30,000 at once.........and i agree, where would that have actually taken place? This is one of the places i would like to have had a footnote. ........ even a city square at that time would not have had buildings tall enough to act as a "chamber." ................gives us a lot to think about..........jean

[mabel1015j]

Our PBS station rebroadcast the first episode of the National Parks last night. It is so well done, the photography and the narrative is so beautiful. It made me think again about the Leviticus quote about "the land belongs to God not humans and nobody should benefit to greatly or suffer to mightily for thr work w/ God's bounty."

On pg 47 the Indpendence Hall guide says "....a lot of people today feel that the Enlightenment was antireligious...that people like Paine, B Franklin and others were deists and didn't believe in God." Actually deist comes from deus, meaning God........the Encarta definition:

"rational belief in God: a belief in God based on reason rather than revelation and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs. Deism was especially influential in the 17th and 18th centuries."

[bellamarie]

Babi, 

"The wonder of it is that God is able to use people, despite their weaknesses and flaws."

I love how you expressed this.  At our Bible study last night we were discussing this very topic.  How the disciples were called to leave everything, family, home, occupation and follow Jesus.  There were some that were puzzled as to "why me."  God chose a diverse group, some who were of simple living, and not especially well educated, doctors, tax collector, fishermen etc.  I believe it was a part of his plan to show the people you did not have to be a scholar or rich man to be a chosen one to lead and spread his word, case in point....Jesus being a carpenter by trade.  It's like our gospel a couple of weeks back pointing out we have all been given many gifts, talents and skills and are expected to use them.  I loved how a few of our members last night expressed how before they had decided to do a job that was presented to them, they felt a weakness, fear and inablility to say yes.  They of course decided to do the job, and find it rewarding and fulfilling, helping others of less fortune or education.

Jean.. I so agree with you that you do not have to follow an organized religion to be moral or ethical.  A very good, moral, ethical friend of mine does not believe in God.  I tell him although he does not believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit or organized religion, I see he lives his life how God has called us to, by loving others, caring for others, giving to the poor, helping his fellowman and being a good father, husband, brother, son and friend.  I tease him and say for someone who does not believe in Christ he sure is Christlike.   When it comes to politicians and leaders of our country I like knowing if they have a religious belief because I feel it can't help but impact how they will vote on legislation, govern,etc, but as far as them quoting scripture to serve their self purpose and liken themselves to prophets or Biblical characters, I am uncomfortable with it.  I think we the people will watch and conclude by the good that they do for the people and the world, as to whether they warrant such comparisons.

While Feiler may not have exact, facts and footnotes to back up some of his conclusions, up to this point I don't see it makes any difference as to what he is trying to acheive with this book.  He clearly has enough material to show the corralation of Moses, religion and history being a major part in forming this great nation.  He has not in my personal opinion harmed the believability of his work.  I like this particular quote in thinking of this book.

"Read not to contradict and conflute; nor to believe and take for granted; not to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider."                                                       (Francis Bacon 1561-1626 British Statesman and philosopher)

[Jonathan]

Poor Douche, with revolutionary madness scratching out all references to the king in the Book of Common Prayer, and then regretting it after a night in jail, no doubt meditating, as a priest, that the English monarch was (and still is) the Defender of the Faith. What great conscience pangs that must have brought on.

Feiler does make it interesting. Or shall we say that he has increased the area of interest in the American colonists' quest for freedom and independence. The historical picture has gotten bigger for him, just what he says about Philadephia's historic district:

' (it) has grown since I first visited in high school...' p63

Who could possibly have a greater claim as a modern Moses, than Christopher Columbus? Millions of Jews have followed him to the Americas, the promised land. Just look at the figures in Bellamarie's post #105.

And God had a hand in it as well. In my copy of A History of Jews in America, by Howard M. Sachar, I read this on pages 9 and 10:

'It was  on April 20, 1492, the day Columbus received authorization to equip his fleet, that King Ferdinand publicly announced the expulsion of the Jews and confiscation of their remaining property. Only a fraction of the booty could be assessed or collected before Columbus  departed. By the time of his second journey, however, in 1493, the government had appropriated and auctioned off for the royal treasury important quantities of Jewish real estate and chattels, gold and silver utensils and jewels, Torah  mantles and silk table covers. The loot exceeded 6 million maravedis. This time Columbus departed in style.'

For the Jew, God has always worked in mysterious ways. What a succession of Promised Lands in 4000 years! And the troubles getting there!

[mabel1015j]

but as far as them quoting scripture to serve their self purpose and liken themselves to prophets or Biblical characters, I am uncomfortable with it.  I think we the people will watch and conclude by the good that they do for the people and the world, as to whether they warrant such comparisons

Babi -  i agree, if for no other reason than i'm a strong first ammendment advocate. I find it ironic that Jimmy CArter who was frequently given the label "born-again Christian" by the press, was careful to separate the political and the religious aspects of his life in public. He seldom, if ever, quoted scripture in his role as president and some who weren't labeled frequently spoke of the Bible or religion. Just an observation. .

Carter may have done more good for the world in his last 30 yrs than any other president we've had.........jean

[salan]

Yeah!  The library called and my book is in.  Unfortunately, so are three others that I had requested, and I am currently reading two, and Amazon is delivering the books I ordered promptly.  Why is it always feast or famine?  Since the library books are new, I probably won't be able to renew any of them.  I will start America's Prophet as soon as I get home.  Am I correct in thinking that you have been discussing chapters 1-3 and next week will be 4 & 5?

I am not sure from your discussions how I will feel about this book, but I'll give it a try.
Sally

[Persian]

ANNIE - many thanks for inviting me to join this discussion.  As I've read through the current posts, I recalled teaching  American Citizenship classes years ago in the metropolitan Washington DC area to Russian, Iranian and Turkish Jews - all of whom had immigrated to the USA,  and were eager to become citizens.  It was soon apparent that in order to bring the class together in understanding the focal points of the study (and stay away from regional differences and misunderstandings), we had to choose something to focus on.  ONE big topic about the USA that  would start the classes off in the right direction - SURPRISINGLY - turned out to be religion:  the three Abrahamic religions and how they (and their adherents) were viewed in the USA.  Equally important to the realm of understanding was how the USA was viewed in its young years and the role and responsibilities of our Founding Fathers.

Our classroom was a combination of study hall, library, worship center and political "open mike."  It was a great learning opportunity for me - much as the posts I've been reading here tonight - and convinced me AGAIN that one's belief in God INDEED can be shared by and with individuals from vastly different backgrounds.  Thoughtful respect for "differences" in culture, worship, practice (or the lack thereof), and politics, as well as combining a little something from each area turned out to be an excellent "tool of understanding."

In a contemporary sense, I've always wondered as I continued to teach international classes at American universities, as well as in China and the Middle East, how someone like Moses would view our contemporary world - especially in North America - and whether the Country that we know, love and respect in our time would be recognizable to our Founding Fathers.

Again, thanks very much for inviting me to participate in this discussion.  I'll be checking in periodically as our family prepares for my son's third military deployment to the Middle East and my husband's return from Egypt later this month.

Mahlia

[bellamarie]

Mahlia, Welcome, it had to be extremely rewarding to teach American Citizenship classes to the Jewish immigrants.  It does not surprise me that religion would be the commonality, considering God led them here and would provide this bridge to help them in becoming a citizen in this "promised land of flowing milk and honey."  I find your words of high praise to our group.

Jean, Those were actually my words, and I must say I agree with you pointing out while president, Jimmy Carter "was careful to separate the political and the religious aspects of his life in public."  Although he attended church on Sunday which showed he continued to practice his faith while leading our country, which I respected him for.  He has not been given a very good legacy as our president due to his failure in freeing the Americans in Teheran, but there is no dispute of his humanitarian/Christian life he leads.

Jonathon,  So am I understanding it correctly, that the properties of the Jews were taken from them, auctioned off and then Christopher Columbus sailed in style?  But then those were only materialistic things that were replaceable, insignicant in the realm of things,  compared to robbing them of their dignity, freedom and lives.  

This all has me thinking and wondering about how we are dealing with immigration today.  The past and present administraion have been struggling with how to deal with the illegals who now are in the country,  and we have rules and requirements in becoming legal citizens.  When foreigners flee to the U. S. for a better life, freedom, etc., is this their Exodus?  Were there any laws prohibiting entry back in the earliest years while forming America?  When Mahlia speaks of teaching American Citizenship classes that is a requirement for legal citizenship, when did that become law?  Imagine, Joshua leading thousands of Jews into the promised land, only to be stopped at the gates and denied entry.  Guess this is food for thought........

[Babi]

 JEAN, it occurred to me on reading your post, that Hinduism with all
it's many 'gods' is an apt comparison. There is truly only one supreme
being in Hinduism; all the others are simply aspects of that One.
Hinduism recognizes that people cannot grasp the entirety of God, for
one thing. And that they approach God according to their own nature,
understanding, and needs.
 So, isn't the presence of many denominations and splinter groups in
Christianity much the same thing?

 Ah, I see Bella caught that misquote, so I don't need to.   BELLA,
driving out the Jews and confiscating all their property for the crown
was a not uncommon source of revenue for the royal treasuries of Europe in those days. They also made good diversionary targets when the royal house needed a scapegoat for angry citizenry. Yet when not being used for those purposes, they were a major asset, adding to the prosperity  of the realm..and the rulers.. where they resided. Being Jewish was never easy.

"Weigh and consider."

  I do like that, BELLA.


Thoughtful respect for "differences"  That's always the key, isn't it,
Mahlia?

I’m trying to figure out what Thomas Huxley meant by writing that the Bible “has become the national epic of Britain.”  I can’t find the source for that quote. (p. 22)  I can't think of any way in which the Bible was
Britain' 'national epic'.  Can anyone comment on that?

[bellamarie]

Aha...I think I found the answer to my question in my post above..... 

1917 Restrictions on immigration, including a literacy test, were instated that severely restricted the entry of Jews to the United States.
November 7th, 1919 On the second anniversary of the Russian Revolution, over 10,000 suspected communists and anarchists were arrested in what became known as the Palmer Raids. Palmer and Hoover found no evidence of a proposed revolution but large number of these suspects were held without trial for a long time. The vast majority were eventually released but 248 other people were deported to Russia. This included a large number of Jews including Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman and Mollie Steimer.
1921-1924 The National Origins Quota legislation passes, restricting the number of immigrants allowed into America to no more than two percent of the number of each nationality residing in the U.S. in 1890. Due to the National Origins Quota of 1924 few Eastern European refugees were allowed into the US during World War II.

I am so amazed at how many different nationalities, and the numbers, immigrated to the U.S.  I can see why they would have to make requirements and regulate how many they could allow.  And to be careful of communists back then and terrorists today who gain entry to harm us.  We are the land of the free and want our shores and doors to be open to all, yet there is a danger that can put us in harm's way in doing so.  These regulations and requirements may hinder, but I don't ever see them deterring immigration and illegal entry, into our country.   

Gosh Babi, you got me searching on that Huxley quote.  

[bellamarie]

Babi,

I’m trying to figure out what Thomas Huxley meant by writing that the Bible “has become the national epic of Britain.”  I can’t find the source for that quote. (p. 22)  I can't think of any way in which the Bible was
Britain' 'national epic'.  Can anyone comment on that?

Maybe this will help:

T. H. Huxley reminds us, writing in the Nineteenth Century, the importance of the Bible to England and English culture,

“And then consider the great historical fact that for three centuries, this Book has been woven into the life of all that is best and noblest in English history; that it has become the national epic of Britain, and is familiar to noble and simple, from John-o 'Groat's Mouse to Land's End, as Dante and Tasso once were to the Italians; that it is written in the noblest and purest English, and abounds in exquisite beauties of mere literary form; and, finally that it forbids the veriest hind who never left his village to be ignorant of the existence of other countries and other civilizations, and of a great past, stretching back to the further limits of the oldest nations in the world. By the study of what other book could children be so much humanized and made to feel that each figure in the vast historical procession fills, like themselves, but a momentary space in the interval between two Eternities; and earns the blessings or the curses of all time, according to the effort to do good and hate evil?”[9]
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/54730/sec_id/54730


There is also this site that lists his works:  http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/h#a595