Author Topic: Fiction ~ Old ~ New ~ Best Sellers #2 (Read 776260 times)

MaryPage · « **Reply #1800 on:** April 17, 2011, 05:12:13 PM »

This is the place to talk about the works of fiction you are reading, whether they are new or old, and share your own opinions and reviews with interested readers.

Every week the new bestseller lists come out brimming with enticing looking books and rave reviews. How to choose?

Discussion Leader: Judy Laird

Agree comparison would be fun. Rather suspect the book you found portrays her as thoroughly evil. I really tend to doubt that now.

Frybabe · « **Reply #1801 on:** April 17, 2011, 06:35:21 PM »

Quote

Rather suspect the book you found portrays her as thoroughly evil

I suspect the same MaryPage. However, the intro doesn't hint at it yet. In the meantime, I am trying to confirm some of what he states in his letter to the Duke and in the intro. For instance, in his letter to the Duke he says "...you carried to King Victor Emmanuel in Florence the declaration of allegiance of the Roman populace." The Duke did have his hand in politics, but I can't find anything specific about him, just generalities and not much at that.

In the intro, the author lists a whole bunch of Borgia books published in the 1800's. I love this comment about an article in Civilta Cattolica, a Jesuit publication:

Quote

...in an article dated March 15, 1873, whose author made no effort to defend Alexander's character, simply because, in the light of absolutely authentic historical documents, it was no longer possible to save it.

I just realized we are in the fiction section. Is your book a non-fiction or historical fiction?

Steph · « **Reply #1802 on:** April 18, 2011, 06:07:22 AM »

The Bordias were an interesting family. Now all these years later, it is hard to really know what was happening at that period. I have read at least two books that are diametrically opposite of each other on Lucrezia. ONe for.. One against.. Oh well. she was lively for sure.

Babi · « **Reply #1803 on:** April 18, 2011, 08:34:54 AM »

If the book is dedicated to an enemy of the Borgias, it's most likely not going to be
saying much good about the woman. One would have to be wary of a decidedly slanted view.
Do you believe your book has a fairer view, MARYPAGE? It would be interesting to learn that
Lucrezia was not quite the horror we thought. Assassination and murder were quite common in that era, though.

MaryPage · « **Reply #1804 on:** April 18, 2011, 09:39:16 AM »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2004/oct/23/featuresreviews.guardianreview4

This book is a real non-fiction biography. As fast paced and fascinating as fiction. I believe the writer to be a serious historian and making a sincere effort to get as close to the truth as possible.

The only sin I found in Lucrezia was that she held up a travel party of hundreds for several days in order to "wash her hair." I have to allow for that announcement possibly meaning something else, such as menstral cramps, etc.

Lucrezia was 39 years old when she died.

MaryPage · « **Reply #1805 on:** April 18, 2011, 09:49:10 AM »

A comment on history as told and history as written: in the beginning, as you all know perfectly well, but not all will have stopped to consider it, ALL history was word of mouth. Do you remember the whisper around the table game we played as children at birthday parties? The last in the circle would speak out loud what they had just had whispered in their ear, and it would be NOTHING like what was started around the circle!

So gossip built upon gossip built upon gossip. And politics and tribal hatred came into it big time. You hear the lies being told flat out and blatantly in public today? Much worse then, because no one could trace anything back to the source. Remember: everyone illiterate, no radio, no tv, no newspapers, no printing, no telephone, and so on and on.

Now serious historians can go to the Vatican and other sources of what was written down (wealthy homes, museums, private collections, city and state archives, and so forth) and can actually travel world over to find authentic items and can come up with something closer to reality. I do not believe in Lucrezia's case it is a matter of white-washing at all. I think she was a scape goat.

Frybabe · « **Reply #1806 on:** April 18, 2011, 11:47:03 AM »

My Lucretia Borgia book, so far, cites correspondence and other documentation. The author had access to various city and family records, including the Duke's family records. It remains to be seen if the author slants what is documented to any particular side. I will be on the lookout for biased interpretations.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #1807 on:** April 18, 2011, 12:09:33 PM »

I am just at the part in The Sins of the House of Borgia - fiction- where it might be the story of L holding up the 100's on the trip. This author portrays it as the whole troup needing a rest. Of course, it always astounds me when i've read abt royalty/aristocracy traveling w/hoardes of people and expecting towns and other aristocracy to feed and shelter them. It gives me an understanding of the need to build castles w/ 60-100 rooms. In this book, Sarah Bower, author, says there were a thousand people in L's trip to get married for the third time. Can you imagine? A thousand people landing in any town today would be a crises, let alone in the middle ages. ....... Again, so glad i live where i do, when i do.

In general, this author has depicted LB as a fairly moderate, typically demanding, member of the aristocracy.

Jean

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1808 on:** April 18, 2011, 12:19:35 PM »

Yes, and evidently they moved often - one of the docents at one of the houses in Britain explained the reason we saw so much art work with everyone on the road is they had to go from castle to castle because the immediate area was hunted out and the 'sewage' was needing time without use - here the book you are reading explains better what it was like to be on the move.

Steph · « **Reply #1809 on:** April 19, 2011, 06:17:01 AM »

Think of our current day celebraties.. They love to travel with a group of people.. I think it is the need to be waited on and catered to.

Babi · « **Reply #1810 on:** April 19, 2011, 08:47:13 AM »

Sounds good, MARYPAGE. But as the review noted, "the point was that, as far as the
talking, writing, worrying classes of Renaissance Italy were concerned, the Borgias were
a byword for the dark arts..." I grant you gossip does run wild, but I don't doubt for
a minute that at least some of the Borgias were participating in the fine old Italian
game of political assassinations.
History repeats itself, doesn't it? Think of the example set by that dear lady, Nero's
mother.

Ah, yes, JEAN. Those annual Royal processions about the country were one way of taking
some of the expense of maintaining a royal court off the royal pocketbook. And BARB mentions
a couple more excellent reasons.

MaryPage · « **Reply #1811 on:** April 19, 2011, 08:48:46 AM »

My favorite Ugh! story is that of the palace of Versailles, said to be the most beautiful, biggest jewel on the planet in the latter half of the seventeenth century. It had no bathrooms. Full to bursting with nobility on hand at the command of the king to pay him court, these beautiful people relieved themselves in the numerous stairwells. And this long after the Borgias!

Babi, I completely agree that the Borgias, the pope and his sons and mistresses, were dreadful people. I just find it hard to believe the very young Lucrezia was more than a spoiled pawn in their plans. I do not think she planned murder, simony, incest, and all the rest. In short, I do not believe she was a plotter or a planner, but just bait. My sense of the way it was, but not one I wish particularly to foist upon anyone else. Just putting it out there and wondering how all the rest of you feel about it.

serenesheila · « **Reply #1812 on:** April 19, 2011, 10:53:03 AM »

I am reading Jodi Picoult's newest fiction. I believe that it is called: "Sing Me Home". However, my book is in the bathroom, and my memory is filled with blank spots these days.

I find the book both thought provoking, and interesting. It is the story of a woman who desperately wants a child, getting divorced by her husband. Then, she finds herself attracted to another woman. She and her husband had been involved in fertility treatments, and still have some frozen embryos. She and her new partner, want to bring those to term, and keep the children. Her ex husband, wants to give them to his religious brother and sister in law.

It is different from what I normally read. Sure gives me a lot to think about! I do reccomend it.

Sheila

mabel1015j · « **Reply #1813 on:** April 19, 2011, 11:01:27 AM »

This was apparently a very smart family, there's no reason to think L was not as smart. My feeling is that she was not as bad as the worst stories abt her - owing to the way women were often portrayed as witches and evil and the way men liked to scapegoat women as the seductress. Goodness knows, the men couldn't help themselves! But, since L grew up in this conniving, skeming family, and she was obviously as smart as the men in her family, there is reason to believe that she indulged in some of that, if only to protect herself against them and have some control of her life. ....... I believe she was not a mere pawn....... Jean

Steph · « **Reply #1814 on:** April 20, 2011, 06:42:45 AM »

Cant say that Jody Picoult is not current. I read her off and on, but rarely agree with her endings.

Babi · « **Reply #1815 on:** April 20, 2011, 09:21:46 AM »

'Bait" was probably the most common use of beautiful daughters/sisters among the powerful
families of that era, MARYPAGE. It could very well be true of Lucrezia. Is your book
offering any solid evidence that may be the case? I really don't know enough about her
to have an opinion. I've just been accepting the general historical view.

INteresting, SHEILA. It would come down, wouldn't it, to who has the legal ownership of
those embryos. Is it embryos, or sperm? I would think both husband and wife would share
ownership(?) of embryos. Ownership of frozen sperm might depend on State law regarding the
rights of a wife.

MaryPage · « **Reply #1816 on:** April 20, 2011, 09:36:10 PM »

Babi, I thought the evidence offered was pretty convincing, which is why I changed my opinion of Lucrezia. Actually, it disappointed me as well, because I am a goblet collector, and I have this gorgeous goblet that also looks somehow evil and I have called it my Lucrezia Borgia goblet for, oh, about 45 years now, imagining she used it, or one like it, to poison her husbands. Now I feel absolutely certain she poisoned no husbands. Nary a one! Bummer!

It has been several years now since I blitzed through everything Borgia I could lay my hands on, and I am on to other adventures in history now, and this has only come up because of the current series on Showtime.

It is embryos. Remember, sperm is that icky stuff only the males of our species possess and we'd all be a lot better off if they had a lot less of it and a lot fewer years of ability to make it. Ah well, I did not get appointed in charge of Biology. Pity! I amuse myself greatly thinking of the changes I would make.

Babi · « **Reply #1817 on:** April 21, 2011, 08:25:37 AM »

So sorry you missed out on a poisoning cup, MARYPAGE!
True, sperm is sticky but they freeze that, too. As for the awkward imperatives of sperm production, it was no doubt useful in the beginning, when there was an entire world to populate. Now, I agree, a reduction in sperm and testosterone would no doubt help bring about a more peaceful world.
I have on occasion amused myself with thinking what I would do if I ran the world. Sadly,
while I know the result I want, I must admit to having no real grasp of how to bring it about.
None of us poor mortals can see the whole picture and understand all the possible consequences
of our actions.

MaryPage · « **Reply #1818 on:** April 21, 2011, 11:02:22 AM »

Babi, we are soul mates!

What fun we would have meeting and conversing.

serenesheila · « **Reply #1819 on:** April 21, 2011, 11:58:23 AM »

Well, my memory failed me, again. Jodi Piccoult's latest book is titled: "Sing You Home". I am in the section about the lawsuit the ex wife filed against her ex. They both want ownership of the frozen embryos. I am finding it fascinating.

A back story concerns the exwife's job as a music terapist. She works with all ages, from seniors in retirement homes, to school children. It is something I knew nothing about.

Sheila

ursamajor · « **Reply #1820 on:** April 21, 2011, 12:05:51 PM »

I recently finished reading Sing you Home also. It raises some real ethical questions. It also is thought provoking about same sex unions. However, the ending is total fantasy and spoiled the effect of the book as far as I am concerned.

Sounds as though Babi and Mary Page shared my "When I'm dictator ......" fantasy.

MaryPage · « **Reply #1821 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:00:02 PM »

We did! We did!

Only I never once considered the title "dictator." Goddess suits me better.

jane · « **Reply #1822 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:13:22 PM »

hahaha...I've always said when I'm Queen of the World...but, hey, Goddess or Empress also works for me!!

serenesheila · « **Reply #1823 on:** April 21, 2011, 09:56:45 PM »

LOL................Empress, or Goddess.............have never thought about what I would do in that position. It sounds like fun to play that fantasy out.

Sheila

Steph · « **Reply #1824 on:** April 22, 2011, 06:18:29 AM »

I hate to tell you all, but I once had a female Corgi who had the job of empress all sewn up. She knew from birth that she was the ruler and enforced this for almost 15 years.. I think the world is a bit too much of a mess, but I do wish that I had invented a universal religon. Would save all of this religious nonsense of whose god is the best.

jane · « **Reply #1825 on:** April 22, 2011, 09:42:54 AM »

Steph...I don't think a universal religion would fix the mess, but then I'm one of those people who think people use the guise of "religion" as an excuse/justification for power. We've had splits in congregations among mainline religions here in our little town, and I believe the Middle East is fraught with different "sects" of the same Islamic religion who are fighting each other.

So...what fun books are you reading? We're having a dismal spring...rain, cold, windy, and that calls for a fun, no horror or gore book for me. What do you all suggest?

It doesn't have to be a specific title...but what authors do you enjoy again and again? I need names.

jane

maryz · « **Reply #1826 on:** April 22, 2011, 10:20:33 AM »

I've just finished a J.A.Jance - one of the authors I like. This one is called Hour of the Hunter - a thriller. Pretty good story. I'd like to have more about the characters.

marjifay · « **Reply #1827 on:** April 22, 2011, 12:32:29 PM »

Jane said, "I don't think a universal religion would fix the mess, but then I'm one of those people who think people use the guise of "religion" as an excuse/justification for power."

I agree with that! But I've figured it out, for me at least. No god. LOL.

I've been sorting and shelving a big bunch of books I've had stacked on the floor of my spare room for too long. Amazing the books I'd forgotten I own! One of my "forgotten" books I just started reading is THE TOKAIDO ROAD; A NOVEL OF FEUDAL JAPAN by Lucia St. Clair Robson. I'm finding it a fascinating read. Set in 18th-century feudal Japan, the daughter of a lord who was forced to commit suicide has become a courtesan in the pleasure district of Edo--later Tokyo--to support herself rather than become a nun as had her mother. She vows revenge on Lord Kira who she knows is responsible for her father's death. Robson writes so well you really feel you are back in feudal Japan.

Marge

MaryPage · « **Reply #1828 on:** April 22, 2011, 01:53:55 PM »

Vincent Bugliosi, a famous author and prosecutor, has a new book out that sounds absolutely fascinating. He was on Morning Joe on MSNBC this morning discussing it. "Divinity of Doubt: The God Question."

marjifay · « **Reply #1829 on:** April 22, 2011, 02:48:55 PM »

Thanks, MaryPage, I put Bugliosi's book on hold at my library. It does sound interesting.

Marj

mabel1015j · « **Reply #1830 on:** April 22, 2011, 10:28:16 PM »

I gave up on Sins of the House of Borgia. Altho i think the author had a good handle on the historical environment, it really turned out to be an "historical romance", or that would be my label. The protagonist was obssessed with Cesare even tho he gave her little reason to be and i got bored with that narrative. I was hoping to get more info about the Borgias, but it didn't seem to be headed that way.

I'm about halfway thru my third Covington book, From the Heart of Covington. It's just as wonderful as the first two. I love the way she portrays each character's different personality and keeps them true to it. Hannah's youngest dgt has come to recuperate after a tragic accident - i won't give it all away - and they have things to work thru. All the characters that we met in the first two books continue in normal, but not dull, events of real life. I think her books are so popular because probably many of us wish we could, in our "senior-life", find such a comfortable setting w/ good friends who care about us in such a nice big- ole house and be reasonably healthy and productive.
I guess this is really "fantasy" fiction.

........ Jean

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #1831 on:** April 23, 2011, 02:33:53 AM »

Jean, I am longing to read another Covington book. I have read the first one, and I see that one of the Edinburgh libraries has "Gardens of Covington" - have you read that? I think I am going to have to part with my spondoolies and buy some of the others from Amazon, as you just do not see them much in libraries or second hand shops here - I can't understand why as it is relatively easy to come across Debbie Macomber, Jennifer Chiaverini, etc, and I think Joan Medlicott is better than both of them. I really miss the characters in her book.

Rosemary

Steph · « **Reply #1832 on:** April 23, 2011, 06:21:16 AM »

Yes, I read with great envy the places that have a community of elders. Each has a separate area, but there is a main living room, kitchen , etc. Sounds just right for me. Privacy when I need it, but company when I venture out..
I saw Elizabeth Edwards book yesterday and had to have it.. Good, but not light reading.
Light reading for me just now is a silly space opera.. Space Doc.. Really fun.

salan · « **Reply #1833 on:** April 23, 2011, 07:40:21 AM »

I've read all the Covington series. I love the for pure comfort. Another author I enjoy for "comfort" is Sandra Dallas. My ftf book club just finished her "Prayers for Sale". Next month's selection for ftf is Cutting for Stone. I have downloaded it on my Kindle, but haven't started it yet.
Sally

MaryPage · « **Reply #1834 on:** April 23, 2011, 09:02:17 AM »

Bought all of the Covingtons in paperback, promptly put little stickers with numbers on them on the front of each so as to see at a quick glance what order they were to be read in, over time read four and passed them on to a daughter. She just began the second one and loves them for being peaceful in this tumultuous world. Will get back to number 5 one of these days. It is nice to know I have them, like chocolates tucked away in a hidey-hole.

Babi · « **Reply #1835 on:** April 23, 2011, 09:21:46 AM »

My input.... I definitely believe in God, but I don't think we can grasp who/what God
is. Religion is our effort to explain God. The problem with 'religion', is that once it
becomes influential it attracts the kind of men who seek power and influence. Not all of
them are there for that reason of course. But the power seekers who reach the top then
seek to implement 'dogmas' that increase their influence and power.
The original purpose of the church was a good one, and that purpose still remains. But
one has to be wary of the 'rules' and mandates of the 'religion', whichever one it may be.
Religion and Faith are not the same thing, at all, at all.

Uh, ROSEMARY. Spondoolies??

MaryPage · « **Reply #1836 on:** April 23, 2011, 10:20:43 AM »

Babi, I totally agree with you.

Gumtree · « **Reply #1837 on:** April 23, 2011, 10:48:48 AM »

Quote

Uh, ROSEMARY. Spondoolies??

Babi - Ha! we say Spondulix - or maybe its spondulicks. - It's slang for dough, filthy lucre, lovely m-o-n-e-y !!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #1838 on:** April 23, 2011, 11:50:34 AM »

Ahhhhh, the things we learn on Seniorlearn!

....... Jean

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #1839 on:** April 23, 2011, 03:34:13 PM »

Great statement Babi -

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Author Topic: Fiction ~ Old ~ New ~ Best Sellers #2 (Read 776260 times)