Author Topic: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online  (Read 81712 times)

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #360 on: November 23, 2010, 03:33:22 PM »
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online

Excellent Women

Quartet in Autumn

 

British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with  humor, a very dry humor.  Both Pym and Austen were  concerned with the marriage of their heroines,  before they become "spinsters." (Note that  Austen and Pym never married.)   It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage.  In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel.  Will this be the case with Pym?

The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952,  considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry  without the romance or risk remaining a spinster.   The woman is 31 years old!  
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers,  as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources.   Pym  is fascinated  by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
 

Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn
Nov. 11 - 15  
  Chapters 1-11
Nov. 16 - 20
  Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter
Nov. 21 - 30  
  Final Thoughts & Happy Thanksgiving to all
         


Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
4. Would you be interested in reading another of Pym's earlier  novels?  If so, which one?
~~~
Related Links:
Barbara Pym Biography; Barbara Pym Society; "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Pedln (for Quartet in Autumn )



JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #361 on: November 23, 2010, 03:59:34 PM »
They are both beautiful poems, I agree, Rosemary.T he relevance to Quiet in Autumn is just amazing..  How on earth did you find this poem, Barbara?

Actually, both poems relate

Rilke's Autumn Day , written in 1900 and PK Page's in 1970 (I think that's right) -  both relate directly to Pym's Quiet in Autumn, don't they?  


Quote
Whoever has no house now will never have one.
Whoever is alone will stay aloneWill sit, read, write long letters through the evening
And wander on the boulevards, up and down...
          - from Autumn Day, Rainer Maria Rilke

I can believe that Barbara Pym was familiar with these poems.  She loved poetry - remember she put an anthology of poetry on both Marcia and Letty's night stand?

Thank you so much, Barb!  Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

pedln

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #362 on: November 24, 2010, 02:21:23 PM »
Barbara, you have brought so much to this discussion and for me, have opened up new areas to explore.  Page’s incorporation of the Rilke verse is fascinating, and sent me to find the entire poem – below, and with a link to the different translations.  

Autumn Day translations

Quote
Autumn Day

Lord: it is time. The summer was immense.
Lay your long shadows on the sundials,
and on the meadows let the winds go free.

Command the last fruits to be full;
give them just two more southern days,
urge them on to completion and chase
the last sweetness into the heavy wine.

Who has no house now, will never build one.
Who is alone now, will long remain so,
will stay awake, read, write long letters
and will wander restlessly up and down
the tree-lines streets, when the leaves are drifting.

This entire discussion has been an exploration, and indeed, revealing, in that it shows so much of the author in the books.  Would we have looked differently at this quartet if we had not known that the author herself was unmarried, that she had suffered rejection and serious illness, which prematurely took her life?  Or if we had not known about her involvement with the church, had not been introduced to some of the intricacies of class in the Great Britain of that period?  If we had not been introduced to her world?


JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #363 on: November 24, 2010, 05:06:26 PM »
That's a tough question, Pedln.  If Pym's fans had been reading her novels in order, they would probably be aware of the author's personal story.  But you ask about us - would we look differently at the quartet if we knew nothing about tha author?
Honestly, I don't think so.  Would be interested to hear what the rest of you think...

In the meantime, let's keep an eye on those pies in the oven - don't want dark crusts~


marcie

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #364 on: November 24, 2010, 08:43:22 PM »
I don't think that I've paid much attention to the author's personal life. I'm basing my thoughts about the book on the affect her words, in the book, have on me.

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #365 on: November 30, 2010, 08:28:37 AM »
Can you believe this is the last day of November?  Only 30 days in November, but didn't they fly?  Marcie - I was unable to forget Pym's personal life by the time we read Quartet.  She's the same age as her protagonists in each of the novels, so I found it impossible to forget about her as I read her novels.  But as you say, the focus is not on the author, but rather how the characters relate to us, the reader.  I felt that too... There were times I found the relevance sad and sobering - but there were uplifting, reassuring  moments as well.

I picked up a copy of "Some Tame Gazelle" - have only begun to read it...but find Pym's voice so familiar as she opens with comments on the embarrassing new curate from Belinda, one of the two sister spinsters who frequent the vicarage.  Sister Harriet - the "plump elegant spinster in the middle fifties..."

I'm on the Pym Society email distribution - just yesterday I read this from one of the members... she comments on a Pym  reference in a P.D. James novel.  I will certainly be on the Pym-alert - and more Pym-knowlegeable in all future references to Barbara Pym, won't you?  Here is her comment:


Quote
" I know that P.D. James has been referenced on this site previously. I had occasion to read one of her novels recently, A Taste for Death, that Dulcie had discarded and which I, currently with no book in hand, picked up.

My interest picked up when I came across a reference to Barbara Pym early on in the book, where the action involves one of the minor characters, a rather weak and ineffectual clergyman (aren't they all it seems) in whose church the murders had recently taken place.

"His most recent library book had been a Pym, he had read with envious disbelief the gentle and ironic story of a village parish where the curates were entertained, fed and generally spoilt by the female members of the congregation. Mrs McBride would soon put a stop to anything like that at St. Matthews. Indeed she had put a stop to it."

A few lines on, reflecting on a cake being received in his first week from a parishioner by the name of Ethel Jordan:

"One of Ethel Jordan's is it? You want to watch her, Father, an unmarried priest like you."

Eating it later: "...each mouthful became an act of shared indecency."





JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #366 on: November 30, 2010, 08:30:47 AM »
We cannot let go of Barbara Pym without a big THANK YOU to Rosemary and Tom for guiding us through the discussion, whenever we were groping for answers - What a gift you were!  And Bellemere, our newly minted member of the Pym Society who represented us at the Society Tea...and certainly to Pedln and to all of you, our participants, for lending so much, for focusing our attention on  Pym's quiet nuances in both of these novels.

Though we are putting the novels back on the shelf, I believe the memories will linger on. Please keep us informed in the Library on the doings of the Pym Society and the spring conference in MA, Bellemere.   I believe Rosemary has found a home with us -  Lucky us!

Thank you, each and every one!

marcie

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #367 on: November 30, 2010, 09:10:19 PM »
Thank you very much, JoanP, Pedln, Rosemary and Tom and all of our other participants for a memorable discussion. I'm very glad I read the two books. I learned a lot from everyone's thoughts.

PatH

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #368 on: December 01, 2010, 11:21:40 AM »
It's interesting that P. D. James quotes Pym.  Some of James' books have bits a little reminiscent of Pym in them.

PatH

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #369 on: December 01, 2010, 12:02:06 PM »
I only know the bits of Pym's life I've read here.  I'm not sure whether it's better to read the life first and recognize it  in the books, or the other way around.  I think I'll go for the books first, then the life, then reread the books.They're the kind of books you read a number of times anyway.  I read these two twice during the course of the discussion, and saw a lot more the second time.  And I guess I'll try to read them in order of writing.  Thanks, everyone, for getting me hooked on a new writer.

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #370 on: December 01, 2010, 05:06:18 PM »
No, thank you everyone for inviting us over to your site - I am just delighted to find so many interesting and kind people, great book recommendations,  and things to think about.  Discovering seniorslearn has definitely been a highlight of 2010.

Rosemary

PS - and guess what?  today I finally sold my house!  Now the househunting (in deep snow and ice) begins!

JoanK

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #371 on: December 02, 2010, 12:50:35 AM »
ROSEMARY: HOORAY! You'll be starting a new decade in a new house. Good luck in your hunt. And stay with us, we're always into something interesting.

TOM: now that you've found us, I hope you'll pull up a chair and stay.

PYM is a definite find. I think she'll be like Austen only in the sense that I'll read all her books many times and grumble that she didn't write more. Thanks to all of you for introducing me to her. Of course JoanP and Pedlin did their usual super job!

marcie

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #372 on: December 02, 2010, 10:45:09 AM »
Congratulations, Rosemary, on selling your house. I hope that you are able to find a new one soon.

PatH

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #373 on: December 02, 2010, 02:01:54 PM »
Yes, that's great, Rosemary, a big uncertainty is gone.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #374 on: December 02, 2010, 02:37:29 PM »
Rosemary how does that work in Scotland - will you close on the new house the same day as you close on the sale of your current house?

If not, will you have to move into a hotel or are there short term leases? I am assuming you have to be out of your current house by the end of the closing day unless you have arranged a lease back from the buyer -

Here, there is a difference in how legally a sale and purchase is handled in every state so that a broker cannot, without taking classes and passing tests, work residential brokerage in another state - it would be fascinating to learn the difference between how we transfer property and how it is done in Scotland.

I am sure you are more concerned with if the kitchen is large enough, if the bed will fit in the bedroom as you would prefer, how many repairs the house will require and where you will put your Christmas tree in years to come. Happy hunting...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #375 on: December 02, 2010, 02:37:33 PM »
I can't let the discussion end without commenting on my favorite comic character, Janice the social worker.  Marcia would be a hard person to help, but if anyone could do it, it certainly wouldn't be Janice.  She is so sure of herself, so certain she knows just how to do things, so huffy when anyone suggests she might be weak.

She looks at Marcia, sees how Marcia should run her life, and is annoyed when Marcia doesn't follow her advice, but makes no effort to understand M.  What a hoot!

rosemarykaye

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #376 on: December 02, 2010, 04:51:55 PM »
Barb and everyone, thank you for your good wishes.

When you agree to sell a house here, you make a binding contract (in England called "exchanging" and in Scotland "concluding the missives") - part of that contract is agreeing on a completion date (in Scotland, an "entry date") - on that date, you have to be out and your purchasers must pay the money, in return for which they get the keys. You can agree to buy your new house on the same day (subject to the sellers' co-operation of course), or you might agree to buy it later - if you do that, you end up having to put your furniture into store and maybe having to lease a flat or something to live in.  Two of my friends have recently moved long distances - one to the south of England and one to Milan, Italy - they both decided to rent for a year before making a decision about buying.  This gives you more flexibility, in that you can get used to the area, decide exactly where you want to live, etc, but of course it also costs you money.  My friend who moved within the UK was lucky in that her husband's company was paying a relocation grant, but otherwise it is not cheap to rent, or to store furniture.

We haven't bought in Edinburgh yet, but I hope we will be able to get the keys to whatever we buy on the same day, or the day after, we move out of here.  In order to make things easier for my younger daughter, I think she and I will stay up here until the Easter holiday - I am very fortunate in that I have a friend with a basement flat in her house that is currently unoccupied, so we will be able to stay in that (to rent commercially is not only prohibitively expensive, but also means a minimum 6 months' lease, which would not be much use for us) - but my husband will then be able to move into the new property, so that we are no longer paying the rent on the flat he currently has in Edinburgh.  It's a wonderful flat right in the New Town (which isn't at all New), and we have all enjoyed having it, but it costs a fortune.

Anyway, that's the plan, and we all know what happens to the best-laid ones of those... :)

I qualified in law in England, and when I came to Scotland I had to requalify in Scots Law.  Some things are more or less the same, but conveyancing is markedly different - however, I haven't done any since I took the exams, so I have no hands-on experience of it up here.  When I went to the Law Society of Scotland in Edinburgh to sit my exams, I met a girl from America who had qualified there, then met her English husband and moved to England - requalified there - then he had got a job in Scotland and she was requalifying again.  In between that she had had what was still a young baby.  i don't know how she did it - I didn't study for the Scots law exams until my youngest child was in primary school, and that was bad enough!

despite being a (reluctant) lawyer, I am far more interested in the size of the kitchen, etc than all the paperwork - in fact I have a complete aversion to it when not in the office, and leave all the official letters unopened for my husband to deal with (I hate to admit this - but it's not that I can't understand all that stuff, i just don't want to have to think about it).  I think it's interesting how your requirements in a house change over the years - I have become much more demanding than I used to be, and am very definite about the kitchen in particular, also the bathrooms and the views from the windows.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a house like the Ladies of Covington one?  Sadly in Edinburgh that will never be, though there are compensations!

Rosemary

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #377 on: December 02, 2010, 11:10:22 PM »
Wow - thanks Rosemary for taking the time to share the information - from what you have said there are many similarities including the high cost of leasing and the typical 6 month minimum lease although, there are now a few places in town that will lease month to month - you pay handsomely for the privilege - however, this is a high tech city with many well paid techies transferring in and like your husband they are compensated by the company for their moving expenses.

Another difference - I am not a lawyer and in this state you are either a lawyer with clients paying your fees or a Real Estate Broker with clients paying your salary through a brokerage fee or commission. Texas made it illegal for lawyers to buy and sell receiving either a commission or a cut in the commission from a broker if they utilize those listings or list with the Board of Realtors, who financially support with dues and maintain the Multiple Listing Service. And so, the only property that a lawyer in this state can save on a brokerage fee is if they buy or sell as a For Sale By Owner. Yep, the Real Estate Commission is a powerful State committee in this state...  ;)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #378 on: December 03, 2010, 11:03:12 PM »
I'm visiting JoanK, and her computer has died, so I haven't been in here much.  I want to thank JoanP and pedln for doing such a super job of leading an absolutely topnotch discussion.  Everyone had so much to say.  Thanks, Rosemarykaye and Tom, for giving us all the insights we needed to get the most out of these two books.  We understood so much more because of you.

And now I'm hooked on a new author.

Gumtree

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #379 on: December 04, 2010, 12:46:53 AM »
Ditto to what PatH has just said. I knew nothing about Barbara Pym before this discussion and although I found the Quartet to be very depressing I will definitely read more by her.

Thanks to all for your insights - amazing how it amplifies the reading. Special thanks to Rosemary and Tom and of course, our  DLs JoanP and Pedln who always do such a good job and make fielding everyone's ideas seem effortless which we all know is far from the truth.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #380 on: December 04, 2010, 10:20:12 PM »
  Wouldn't Barbara Pym love to hear your words, PatH - " I am hooked on a new writer." I agree - even the characters with small parts to play in the piece, were well-drawn, weren't they?  I regarded Janice as young and inexperienced, trying to follow the textbook on how to deal with "old people."  How long until she learns that old people are individuals and there is no one way to help them?  That said, she was making progress with Marcia, wasn't she?  Marcia was actually letting her into her house towards the end.  And Janice was persistant in her attempts to help.  I thought she provided comic relief in this.  So did Mrs. Pope.

Quote
"I think she'll be like Austen only in the sense that I'll read all her books many times and grumble that she didn't write more." JoanK

JoanK,Gum -  I'm reading "Some Tame Gazelle" right now - and loving it. Not dark at all.  Our ladies (and Pym too?)  are in their fifties in this novel - two sisters sharing a home.  It is really funny - with a slight Pym-like edge.  I can really recommend it to you.

Rosemary - you sold your house!  At this time of year!  I'm so  happy for you.  It's so difficult to live in a house that is on the market.  You have to be staged and ready to show every single day, I know.   Now you don't have to worry about it until after the holidays! Enjoy!  Let's continue this holiday talk  in the


Thanks, everyone!  You're the best!

JoanP

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Re: Two by Pym ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #381 on: December 07, 2010, 11:11:11 AM »
This discussion is now closed and will be Archived.  Thanks for your dazzling posts!