Poetry Page

[BarbStAubrey]

Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets

2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.


April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.

A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.

Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Link: First Post of Our Discussion on July 1

Shakespeare Anniversary Links

Shakespeare400 Shakespeare 400 at The Globe Shakespeare 400 Chicago Dame Judi leads Shakespeare Day gala finale Turning Shakespeare’s sonnets into short films

Discussion Leaders: Barb

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXXIII

So shall I live, supposing thou art true, Like a deceived husband; so love's face May still seem love to me, though alter'd new; Thy looks with me, thy heart in other place: For there can live no hatred in thine eye, Therefore in that I cannot know thy change. In many's looks the false heart's history Is writ in moods and frowns and wrinkles strange, But Heaven in thy creation did decree That in thy face sweet love should ever dwell; Whate'er thy thoughts or thy heart's workings be, Thy looks should nothing thence but sweetness tell.    How like Eve's apple doth thy beauty grow,    If thy sweet virtue answer not thy show!

Shakespeare Sonnet 93
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skJT3BKcF9s

[bellamarie]

LXXXXIII

So pretty much he is saying, go ahead and love someone else and I will just pretend you still love me.  Major denial and possibly delusional. 

[JoanK]

S's love is less than perfect, now. A sweet-faced two-timer!

[BarbStAubrey]

Ouch ouch - talk about a knife in the back - whew - and said with no ugly curses - now that is class.  "Thy looks should nothing thence but sweetness tell".

[bellamarie]

Barb, I think he says it with no ugly curses because he is in denial, and refuses to see any flaws in this person, regardless of how he has treated him.  I wonder if at some point before we come to the end of these sonnets Shakespeare will awake from his slumber, and react to being hurt as normal people do?  He sure knows what it is like to be rejected and cheated on, his plays show such different reactions than these sonnets of his.

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, I can see that Bellamarie - I wonder also - I wonder if these Sonnets were playing with ideas that became aspects of his plays or if they were biographical or simply taking an idea and working it using various metaphors - or maybe even seeing some of this behavior in others...

When I found the poem about being young that I shared in order to fill up space last night, the progression to adulthood including marriage, onto elder years the expectations were for a responsible joyless life - light and gay was for children, not for adults - these sonnets are a testimony to joylessness - maybe not always a responsible life but not looking at life through the lens of light and gay for sure.

That reminded me of the movie version of King Arthur, Camelot - it was easy for us to see when Arthur and Genevieve are asking in song What Do the Simple Folks Do as a reaction to the love Arthur knows is between Genevieve and Lancelot but now I see it may have been more - Being a responsible adult was not a joyful lark, it was serious stuff with no recourse - however, the peasants, since it was thought they did not have the responsibilities still created joy in their lives, or at least that is what was imagined.

Hmm Come to think of it, this poem is a bit like Arthur's love and devotion to Genevieve while she and Lancelot carry out their passionate expression of love. hmm - is that what this and other Sonnets are about - the love and devotion to another similar to the love and devotion of Arthur towards Genevieve. Genevieve who teases knights at the May Day celebration and falls passionately in love with a knight who comes to court because of his admiration for Arthur. Sure gives a new slant to these Sonnets.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXXIV

They that have power to hurt and will do none, That do not do the thing they most do show, Who, moving others, are themselves as stone, Unmoved, cold, and to temptation slow; They rightly do inherit heaven's graces And husband nature's riches from expense; They are the lords and owners of their faces, Others but stewards of their excellence. The summer's flower is to the summer sweet, Though to itself it only live and die, But if that flower with base infection meet, The basest weed out-braves his dignity;    For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;    Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e26-506R2Us

[BarbStAubrey]

Had to read this one a few times - but I get the gest of it that some are as if frozen within themselves - "Unmoved, cold, and to temptation slow" and that insular lifestyle is like a festering flower that creates a stench as compared to a weed which is a metaphor for those who are not living a life of dignity - He does not say if they are trying not to be dignified or their life circumstance shows them as without dignity.

However, Shakespeare is having more of a problem with the dignified who he sees as insular within themselves and therefore, more like stone.

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet LXXXXV

How sweet and lovely dost thou make the shame Which, like a canker in the fragrant rose, Doth spot the beauty of thy budding name! O, in what sweets dost thou thy sins enclose! That tongue that tells the story of thy days, Making lascivious comments on thy sport, Cannot dispraise but in a kind of praise; Naming thy name blesses an ill report. O, what a mansion have those vices got Which for their habitation chose out thee, Where beauty's veil doth cover every blot, And all things turn to fair that eyes can see!    Take heed, dear heart, of this large privilege;    The hardest knife ill-used doth lose his edge.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 95
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9iAyRbPHtw

[BarbStAubrey]

Why does this poem remind me of a lady of the night - the art work showing her read lips reminded me of the rose that her lascivious comments are like a canker.

Also it is not usual unless you are a Spanish lady to find veils in the fashion of seventeenth century and so finding her was an adventure.

So I gather he is saying someone is hard as a good knife but like dirty talk. I think it is funny... difficult to imagine seventeenth century dirty talk and yet, what was that book turned into a movie - now I remember - Dangerous Liaisons with the seducer being John Malkovich - that movie made my skin crawl, of which this Sonnet reminds me. Somehow the Sonnet is not as vivid as the movie and so I can laugh at the contents of the Sonnet, how he deftly words it and the art image.

[bellamarie]

Sonnet LXXXXIV

They that have power to hurt and will do none,

They rightly do inherit heaven's graces

I see him saying that those who have the ability to hurt and do not, inherit heaven's graces.  There are beautiful people in the world who take advantage of others, and hurt them because they can, and then there are others, who chose not to hurt in spite of knowing they can.

For sweetest things turn sourest by their deeds;
   Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds.
 
Beautiful people on the outside, can be very ugly on the inside, is what I see Shakespeare saying here.

 

[bellamarie]

Sonnett LXXXXV

Take heed, dear heart, of this large privilege;
   The hardest knife ill-used doth lose his edge.

OUCH!!!   Now Shakespeare is coming at the person who has done the hurting, who thinks no one has seen his actions.  Shakespeare is cautioning him, that even though he is beautiful, and his beauty is like a veil that he thinks is concealing his actions, and by him saying and doing all the right things, he is not getting away with going unnoticed.  It's kind of like he is cautioning him to be careful, you just may die by your own self inflictions.  This reminds me of scripture when Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 26:52:

Matthew 26:52 New International Version (NIV)

52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

In other words, what goes around comes around.

This is what I was looking for and expecting to happen.  Shakespeare may still feel as though he is in love with this person, but now he is opening his eyes and seeing him for who he really is, and it aint pretty!! 

[BarbStAubrey]

Seems like the words that struck you were perfect to match the thought that is in Sonnet 94 - "those who have the ability to hurt and do not, inherit heaven's graces." It is so much easier to hear than the opposite about how those who have the ability to hurt, do so - which we see so much of today.

Bellamarie it sounds like you see Sonnet 95 being written about a he and the veil of beauty as concealing his actions - and then a warning - sure fits the quote from Matthew. Your Ouch sure got into Shakespeare's feelings. Lots of Shakespeare Scholars see your version of the Sonnet as well.

The veil of beauty, as hiding makes me feel squeamish and so, as a veil of beauty on a woman I felt as though the veil acted as a barrier between her and the world, more of a protection. When I was able to see protection I could read the poem with a smile and of course see the object of his affection as a woman who needed and had protection.

We all bring something and we all take something from a poem. For many a veil provides a sense of secrecy. For me secrecy gives me the heebie jeebies and so I felt better reading the veil as protection from the eyes of others.

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet XCVI

Some say thy fault is youth, some wantonness; Some say thy grace is youth and gentle sport; Both grace and faults are loved of more and less; Thou makest faults graces that to thee resort. As on the finger of a throned queen The basest jewel will be well esteem'd, So are those errors that in thee are seen To truths translated and for true things deem'd. How many lambs might the stern wolf betray, If like a lamb he could his looks translate! How many gazers mightst thou lead away, If thou would'st use the strength of all thy state!    But do not so; I love thee in such sort    As, thou being mine, mine is thy good report.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 96
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5_dbpZ9GeU

[bellamarie]

That's an interesting take on the veil, if it is taken in a literal sense Barb. I can see where you would think feminine if it were literally a veit being worn. I saw it as a phasade, like when people look, dress and  act nice in public, yet are very ugly, mean and cruel behind closed doors.  Either way I think Shakespeare is revealing not so nice qualities of this person. 

In sonnet 96 which seems a continuation, he is still mentioning the falsehood of this person, and is referring to "youth" which makes me see he is still speaking of his young male love.

Some say thy fault is youth, some wantonness;

In these lines I still see him saying this person is being deceptive, a charlatan, and thinking he is fooling many, but he is questioning his sincerity and realness.

So are those errors that in thee are seen
To truths translated and for true things deem'd.
How many lambs might the stem wolf betray,
If like a lamb he could his looks translate!
How many gazers mightst thou lead away,
If thou would'st use the strength of all thy state!

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow day is slipping by so quickly - looked in earlier and had several errands which did not bring any more clarity than you Bellamarie deduced from the Sonnet...

I looked and looked thinking I could find a definition for "stem wolf" but notta... Those two words appear to be the key to the Sonnet or at least in my mind - they seem to be inferring a sorta werewolf connotation between lamb and wolf versus wolf and man - the next line continues in my mind that line of thinking that you Bellamarie picked up as the theme of this Sonnet.  If like a lamb he could his looks translate! The line appears to be saying the innocent or young lover is a friend in wolf's clothing with the wolf's clothing being his lamb-like appearance.

I've known a few people like that and when it is a family member oh oh oh - not sure I have been up to As, thou being mine, mine is thy good report. Although Shakespeare does preface his loyal love with But do not so;

A thought provoking Sonnet for sure...

[bellamarie]

Yes indeed, "a wolf in sheep's clothing" is a perfect comparison to what Shakespeare is relating to us in this sonnet.  So many people will dress nice, go out in public with a smile on their face, a "Hi how are you?" and behind your back gossip and betray your confidences.  And like you mentioned Barb, when it is a family member, it is a very hard pill to swallow.  You can not change these type of people.  Shakespeare is wanting to remain loyal to this person in spite of the truths and hurt.  Nope, sorry if it were me.....  Kick him to the curb!!

I have had a busy day myself, got up and had breakfast, hubby and I hurried over for Bible study, then went shopping at the mall, on the way home stopped to get our flu shot, and finally ate lunch around 2:00 p.m.  I am beat and ready for a nap.

[PatH]

Wow.  I blink and I've missed a lot of action.

I can solve the "stem wolf".  It's a typo.  My book says STERN wolf.  Indeed, in many fonts m and rn are almost indistinguishable.

[PatH]

In fact, they are on my screen.  The first one is M and the second RN.

[PatH]

This continues his theme, that the beloved's beautiful exterior conceals treachery and hurt, but in a gentler vein.  But S is really hurting.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks Pat - changed it - a small change that clarifies however, does not change the essence of the Sonnet at all!

You have to wonder at this point if the younger person he is so wrapped up with is really a wolf in sheep's clothes or his jealousy is creating this picture - he could be jealous of another's attention or just jealous of his youth and so everything has a sinister appearance - not even making it up - just seeing the relationship or lack of relationship through his eyes that are not at ease within the relationship or friendship or whatever situation and so he puts characteristics on this young person that he believes that may not even be true except in his viewpoint.

Again, so much conjecture - when bottom line he could have no direct involvement in a relationship other than to wrote a poem describing how it could be if the circumstance were true that he develops to create tension that ever poem or story requires.

Bellamarie flu shot - have you been getting them for the past few years? I get pneumonia so easily but with all the talk of the inadequacy of the flu shot the last few years I chose not to get one. But then last year I did not travel and was hardly out of my neighborhood where as this year I will be traveling at Christmas time - so I am back and forth what to do... I always have a reaction which means a shot equals a 3 day nap with lots of liquids - hate the waste of time feeling miserable if the shot is not taking care of this year's flu causing bug.  Ha flu shot is a promise in wolf's clothes. 

[PatH]

Barb, I always get the flu shot, but I don't have much of a reaction.  If you're traveling, it could be more important.

If you get pneumonia easily, have you had the vaccine? It's a one-time thing, though if you had the old one some years ago it's worth getting the new improved one.

[BarbStAubrey]

yes I have done the pneumonia shot twice now since they are good for 7 years - it is the flu shot I am dithering about - and yes, traveling makes a difference doesn't it...

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet XCVII

How like a winter hath my absence been From thee, the pleasure of the fleeting year! What freezings have I felt, what dark days seen! What old December's bareness every where! And yet this time remov'd was summer's time, The teeming autumn, big with rich increase, Bearing the wanton burden of the prime, Like widow'd wombs after their lord's decease: Yet this abundant issue seem'd to me But hope of orphans and unfather'd fruit; For summer and his pleasures wait on thee, And, thou away, the very birds are mute;    Or, if they sing, 'tis with so dull a cheer    That leaves look pale, dreading the winter's near.

Shakespeare Sonnet 97
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L2_pz9tw1o

[PatH]

No specific mention of jealousy here, just a lament for the beloved's absence.  Without the beloved, it seems like bleak, barren winter, even though it's actually summer and autumn, a fruitful and beautiful time.

Very prettily described seasons, too.

[BarbStAubrey]

Particularly poignant to me is "And, thou away, the very birds are mute;" and then his plea for her return "For summer and his pleasures wait on thee," - both lines bring out the melancholy in me.

Pat sounds like from your post it the lines describing the seasons that particularly hit you. They are pretty briefly describing Summer and Fall as well as, Winter further described. Did they remind you of seasons you remember?

[bellamarie]

Barb, My hubby and I have been getting the flu shot many years now.  We have had no reactions whatsoever from it.  Maybe a soreness near the shot the next day, but today I feel fine and NO soreness at all.  I recommend getting it especially for anyone over 60 yrs of age.  My hubby always gets a bout of bronchitis every winter, and I usually will get one bad upper respiratory infection, but flu shots won't prevent those type of illnesses.  Keep in mind the flu shot only prevents certain strains of viruses, so it is not 100% safe proof.   

[bellamarie]

PatH.,

But S is really hurting.

Barb,

Again, so much conjecture - when bottom line he could have no direct involvement in a relationship other than to wrote a poem describing how it could be if the circumstance were true that he develops to create tension that ever poem or story requires.

I feel Shakespeare has invented this relationship in his own mind for either to create these sonnets, or seeing himself in a relationship with this young male because it is his own desire.  It does appear we could imagine the pain he would be in, if he is this much obsessed with this person, and is not getting any reciprocation from him.  His pain in my opinion in self inflicted, be it real or fantasy.

[bellamarie]

Sonnet LXXXXVII  (Barb I think you may have misplaced the Roman numeral "C" in this sonnet.

This sonnet for me is about Shakespeare leading us into the changing of the seasons.  He appears to be going back into his gloomy dark place again. 

[PatH]

He's speeding up the changes, though.  It's summer and autumn in the world, but already winter in his heart.

[BarbStAubrey]

Actually Bellamarie the C is OK it is just that I did not change the L to an X - fixed it and 96 - Thanks - really should go back and change the others in the 90s. I think my problem with the flu shot offered for free when you are on medicare is that it is cultured or whatever the process using eggs and I have a problem eating eggs so I end up feeling headachy and feverish for about 3 days after the shot.

And yes, the relationship he is talking about is for sure telling us about self inflicted pain - although, today's Sonnet talking about a widow's womb, orphans and unfather'd fruit sounds to me less like a metaphor that would be used in reference to a young man but rather as a reference to a woman.

Again, I think we can leave all that to the Shakespeare scholars and let's continue to read these Sonnets as they affect us in our personal experiences in life - I only read recently how a teacher in the NY area in a school filled with disadvantaged children had the class read the Sonnets and a couple of the plays which allowed the students to see similarities to their lives, their family and friends lives today so that there was a rich exchange of real life experiences for the students to dwell upon - that is the value of classical poetry similar to classical literature - finding what is similar or brings to mind an event or opens our hearts to a feeling that day to day conversation does not encourage.

I had to chuckle Pat - yes, speeding up the changes and at this time of life the seasons do go swiftly by - here it is autumn and I still have not taken a swim in the lake - and I was going to get so much more cleared out of the house than I did and now it is time to get gifts made and lined up for the holidays - I did not even put up any peach jam this year - one day I think time is unending and then other days in my heart and imagination I'm in another season.

[PatH]

Barb, back on Sept 23, you quoted Hesiod speaking of the muses, a lovely passage:

"Thence they arise and go abroad by night, veiled in thick mist, and utter their song with lovely voice,"

I said I would look up Lombardo's version when I got back, and here it is, a bit late.  I include a bit more, because it doesn't divide neatly.

They begin their choral dance on Helikon's summit
So lovely it pangs, and with power in their steps
Ascend veiled and misted in palpable air
Treading the night, and in a voice beyond beauty
They chant:

[PatH]

It's both better and worse, but I like the drama leading up to the following chant.

Treading the night, and in a life beyond beauty
They chant:

[BarbStAubrey]

I like the setup -

They begin their choral dance on Helikon's summit
So lovely it pangs, and with power in their steps

As to the other, either/or although I do like the veiled in thick mist that gives a fay feel to the first quote - where as yes, and in a voice beyond beauty but Treading seems heavier so that part of the line is second for me

thanks for remembering - that was a nice bit of ruminating

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh good grief - sorry folks I forgot - I fell asleep last night watching TV and went to bed without a thought beyond my pillow - OK - back in a minute...

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet LCVIII

 

From you have I been absent in the spring, When proud-pied April dress'd in all his trim Hath put a spirit of youth in every thing, That heavy Saturn laugh'd and leap'd with him. Yet nor the lays of birds nor the sweet smell Of different flowers in odour and in hue Could make me any summer's story tell, Or from their proud lap pluck them where they grew; Nor did I wonder at the lily's white, Nor praise the deep vermilion in the rose; They were but sweet, but figures of delight, Drawn after you, you pattern of all those.    Yet seem'd it winter still, and, you away,    As with your shadow I with these did play.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zleIYxnq3FY

[BarbStAubrey]

'From you I have been absent since last night
When proud-pied morning dress'd in all his trim
Hath put a spirit of poof in every thing,
That aged Saturn laugh'd and leap'd the day.'

This being the 98th Sonnet and only after 98 days - over three months of daily uploads it really is not the end of the world is it?

Appears our poet is continuing the description of Spring and Summer while telling us how he still feels as if winter and he plays with her/his shadow.

Ah yes, I have remembered bits and snippets of the past when thinking of mostly folks who are really no longer with us and so yes, I can see that as playing with their shadows.

[JoanK]

Very nice image.

[BarbStAubrey]

(The Witches Song from Macbeth)

Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and caldron bubble. Fillet of a fenny snake, In the caldron boil and bake; Eye of newt and toe of frog, Wool of bat and tongue of dog, Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting, Lizard's leg and howlet's wing, For a charm of powerful trouble, Like a hell-broth boil and bubble. Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn and caldron bubble. Cool it with a baboon's blood, Then the charm is firm and good.